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Swiss To Build Out Geneva  
User currently offlinenyswiss From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 38 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

According to Travel Inside Swiss is planning to strengthen its position with a crew basis in Geneva and a local leadership organization. From a route perspective it plans to increase seasonal flights to Malaga and Palma as well as to Olbia and Catania next summer while reducing the flights to Athens to 1 daily. It plans to further increase its network with the arrival of the C-Series

http://www.travelinside.ch/travelinside/de/index.php?we_objectID=25383

Sorry, in German only

Over the weekend, there was an interesting article about an interview with Harry Hohmeister about the renewal of parts of the long distance fleet: It seems that Swiss is looking at the 777 or 350's (no suprise) and plans to make a decision within the next 6 - 12 months

http://www.sonntagonline.ch/ressort/wirtschaft/2603/

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1027 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1868 times:

Quoting nyswiss (Thread starter):
Over the weekend, there was an interesting article about an interview with Harry Hohmeister about the renewal of parts of the long distance fleet: It seems that Swiss is looking at the 777 or 350's (no suprise) and plans to make a decision within the next 6 - 12 months

http://www.sonntagonline.ch/ressort/...2603/

Being an all Airbus Airline now, i doubt they'll look at the 777. A350 shares commonality being an Airbus and they might be the winning candidate here.

Talking about hubs, will LX follow LH and have two hubs across their network?



Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

Didn't SR have a hub for a while at GVA? If my memory serves me correctly it was pulled down as it simply wasn't profitable.


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineThomas_Jaeger From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 2358 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 1):
Being an all Airbus Airline now, i doubt they'll look at the 777. A350 shares commonality being an Airbus and they might be the winning candidate here.

Talking about hubs, will LX follow LH and have two hubs across their network?

From everything I have heard so far, they seem fairly serious about the B777-300ER as it is available earlier and already performs really well for many carriers with comparable networks.

I think they are more targeting O&D demand in Geneva than trying to build up a real second hub.



Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9378 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 1):

Being an all Airbus Airline now, i doubt they'll look at the 777. A350 shares commonality being an Airbus and they might be the winning candidate here.

One could argue the blind transition to the Airbus fleet without properly evaluating aircraft led to the demise of Swissair. The A350 may be the airplane they choose, but I'd hope they do a better job of evaluating aircraft needs in terms of size of fleet and total acquired debt.

They already ordered the Cseries, so I don't think they are completely committed to Airbus exclusivity.

[Edited 2012-11-12 10:07:51]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2153 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1868 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 4):
One could argue the blind transition to the Airbus fleet without properly evaluating aircraft led to the demise of Swissair. The A350 may be the airplane they choose, but I'd hope they do a better job of evaluating aircraft needs in terms of size of fleet and total acquired debt.

You need to read up on the SAirgroup, it wasn't Swissair the airline that took down the group, it was all the other side non-core activities, most notably Sabena and AOM that bled money.


User currently offlineOM617 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

From what I'm reading (translating), they seem to be leaning towards the 77W. It would be more economical, especially with regards to keeping fuel costs down, plus they could use aircraft with 50 more seats. Also the 777 would be available sooner than the 350 which they could not get until 2018.

The article also states they are not interested in receiving 346's from LH because the per-passenger costs are too high.

in any event, if they need to expand now, they'll need higher capacity and/or more aircraft sooner than later. So, they may need to lease some 346s, if just for a short time.

DED


User currently offlineviasa From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 1853 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

I'm sure that an offer from Airbus SAS for A350s will include an interim solution of used A340-500s /-600s and new A330-300s.

User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

I hope they will consider launching flights to Belgrade. I read on an aviation portal that the airport is currently seeking an air link with Serbia.

User currently onlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5084 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Shouldnt Swiss stick to its core business and leave Geneva and leisure routes to the LCC's? They can never compete with Easyjet and Wizzair ( Wizz will open up more and more CEE destinations from GVA. )


Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2153 posts, RR: 36
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 9):

Shouldnt Swiss stick to its core business and leave Geneva and leisure routes to the LCC's? They can never compete with Easyjet and Wizzair ( Wizz will open up more and more CEE destinations from GVA. )

Geneva is a high yielding market, in fact according to what LX said today higher yielding than ZRH on similar routes. Whilst easyJet do have many leisure routes from GVA, they also have a number of business routes that LX need to be present in.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5564 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 1):
Talking about hubs, will LX follow LH and have two hubs across their network?

No hub. But rather a focus city with o/d connections. Actually LH has three hubs with FRA, MUC and ZRH (SWISS).


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

Quoting FI642 (Reply 2):
Didn't SR have a hub for a while at GVA? If my memory serves me correctly it was pulled down as it simply wasn't profitable.

GVA was a hub for decades, and got killed offin the late 90s. As I recall, after their withdrawal, the only direct flights Swissair had out of GVA was London, Paris, Moscow and New York. Everything else was served via an hourly feeder route to Zurich.

I worked in Geneva at the time, and my employer (a multinational with probably 50 employees flying on any given day) which used to be very loyal to Swissair pretty much abandoned Swissair in favor of Lufthansa. If you HAD to make layovers, Frankfurt had much better connections than Zurich.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 4):
One could argue the blind transition to the Airbus fleet without properly evaluating aircraft led to the demise of Swissair. The A350 may be the airplane they choose, but I'd hope they do a better job of evaluating aircraft needs in terms of size of fleet and total acquired debt.

That's a bit harsh. Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with Airbuses, but I do know a number of people who refuse to fly them, because they have a FBW system that "knows better than the pilot" - they prefer the more traditional systems such as Boeing offers (still FBW, but more easily overridden in case of emergency). I'm not sure if the number of people who think like this are significant, but they are out there.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSQSFO From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 30 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

I think this is easy one for for LX, and their order will most likely go to Airbus. However, (and I am not aware of their timeline to replacement but I know that the A333 is significantly new) Boeing can take the order with the 77W if LX is in dire need of new aircraft quick. If they want the 787. maybe they should knock on AI's door.

User currently offlinePhilInBRN From Switzerland, joined Jun 2009, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

These news are a bit misleading as for the upcoming summer schedule LX will actually reduce overall flying from GVA by 17 weekly frequencies. However, the number of destinations increase due to the addition of CTA and OLB.

[Edited 2012-11-12 11:55:39]

[Edited 2012-11-12 11:58:47]

User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9378 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
That's a bit harsh. Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with Airbuses, but I do know a number of people who refuse to fly them, because they have a FBW system that "knows better than the pilot" - they prefer the more traditional systems such as Boeing offers (still FBW, but more easily overridden in case of emergency). I'm not sure if the number of people who think like this are significant, but they are out there.

I don't have anything wrong with Airbus airplanes. My point is that Swissair did not do a very good job with fleet planning in the 1990s for their own fleet. They pushed Sabena to rapidly replace airplanes that didn't need replacing. Swissair also ordered A340-600s which were too big.

I don't think Swiss will do that again, but am hoping they do a better job with fleet planning.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 3):
From everything I have heard so far, they seem fairly serious about the B777-300ER as it is available earlier and already performs really well for many carriers with comparable networks.

The global economy is recovering too sluggishly to make earlier delivery dates crucial for LX's expansion. How much sooner could they have 77Ws flying for them than A350s? 1, maybe 2 years?

Besides, the LH group is trying very hard to harmonize their fleet. If Boeing builds the 787-1 and LH buys it (likely), then LX will likely become an all 787 widebody airline as a result. If they don't, the A350 will most likely succeed the A340s.

Quoting OM617 (Reply 6):
The article also states they are not interested in receiving 346's from LH because the per-passenger costs are too high.

They aren't even buying their own planes. They buy them with/through LH. If LH has spare A346s because of weakening markets, or because of new 748s arriving, there is just no way introducing a new aircraft type (77W) will make any financial sense in the long run. The A346 would require no re-training, no delivery time, no acquisition cost - those savings alone should pay for the additional fuel bill. Furthermore, if Airbus' projections are to be believed then the A350 will be more efficient relative to the 77W, than the 77W is to the A346. So over a 10 years period, 5 years of A346 and 5 years of A350 should come with a lower fuel bill as 10 years of 77W.

Even if it is not mentioned in the article, but I see LX going for the 787. I'm fairly certain Boeing will build the 787-1.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 4):
One could argue the blind transition to the Airbus fleet without properly evaluating aircraft led to the demise of Swissair.

Yes but then one could look at the facts and realize that this was not the reason.

People on here put way too much emphasis on an airline's choice of aircraft. Air France has all those 777s, yet they keep losing money. LH is making money with A340-600s. KL with MD11s. Condor is the only airline in the Thomas Cook group that doesn't operate A330s but 767s and they're the only profitable airline in the group. Ryanair is making money with 737s, Air Asia is making money with A320s.

There are advantages to having airplanes of only one manufacturer (economies of scale, bargaining power etc.), as there are for having a diverse fleet (risk spread, ironically bargaining power as well, etc.). What is important is the right size of your aircraft. If you can't fill them, you can't turn a profit. If you're too small, the competition will push you out of the market. This has nothing to do whatsoever with who is providing those capacities to you.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Quoting something (Reply 16):
People on here put way too much emphasis on an airline's choice of aircraft. Air France has all those 777s, yet they keep losing money. LH is making money with A340-600s. KL with MD11s. Condor is the only airline in the Thomas Cook group that doesn't operate A330s but 767s and they're the only profitable airline in the group. Ryanair is making money with 737s, Air Asia is making money with A320s.

There are advantages to having airplanes of only one manufacturer (economies of scale, bargaining power etc.), as there are for having a diverse fleet (risk spread, ironically bargaining power as well, etc.). What is important is the right size of your aircraft. If you can't fill them, you can't turn a profit. If you're too small, the competition will push you out of the market. This has nothing to do whatsoever with who is providing those capacities to you.

Exactly. There is no such thing as a "good" aircraft or a "bad" aircraft, and there is not - generally speaking - a "right" aircraft and a "wrong" aircraft.

For an airline, there are two types of aircraft. Those that work for you, and those that don't. And how the two types are defined can vary massively depending on the precise circumstances specific to your airline. Fuel consumption is one factor - usually an important one - but there are a lot more aspects that need to be looked at.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Quoting FI642 (Reply 2):
Didn't SR have a hub for a while at GVA? If my memory serves me correctly it was pulled down as it simply wasn't profitable.

GVA was a secondary hub for Swissair, mainly for routes like French-speaking points in Africa and other points with a lot of O&D traffic. Swissair almost abandoned GVA in the mid-'90s, moving most routes to ZRH except the daily GVA-JFK route and a very few Europe routes. That gave Swissair a very bad name in the GVA market although it was the correct decision strategically to make ZRH as strong a competitor as possible for other major hubs.

I can't see LX making GVA a significant hub again. Switzerland is much too small for two hubs 150 miles apart. Much of their current GVA service is targeted at competing with the LCCs, mainly EasyJet (by far the largest operator at GVA), often with very low fares.


User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 806 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 1):
alking about hubs, will LX follow LH and have two hubs across their network?
Quoting ZRH" class="quote" target="_blank">ZRH (Reply 11):
No hub. But rather a focus city with o/d connections. Actually LH has three hubs with FRA, MUC and ZRH (SWISS).

If we talk LH, then the only hub in Switzerland is ZRH. If we talk LX, then I think it would be unfair not to mention the dual-hub strategy they are having, with ZRH and GVA. Remember the first flight of the new LX ZRH-GVA v.v. to emphasize the importance of Geneva.



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 3):

I think they are more targeting O&D demand in Geneva than trying to build up a real second hub.

Agree, this looks more like a "focus city" development. If any ad-hoc connection possibilities arise, that's fine too, but O&D is the target. The arrival of the CSeries should make more non-ZRH p2p-routes viable.

Quoting nyswiss (Thread starter):
From a route perspective it plans to increase seasonal flights to Malaga and Palma as well as to Olbia and Catania next summer

Strange route choices, all seasonal leisure destinations; I would have expected them to chase more business-oriented destinations. The danger of leisure routes is that they are up against U2 in that segment.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5564 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Quoting something (Reply 16):
then LX will likely become an all 787 widebody airline as a result.

I don't think so. LX want's an aircraft with 50 seats more than the current A 340-300. I think even an eventual 787-1000 will be too small. Therefore an 777-300 or a 350-1000 will have the size.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5564 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 19):
If we talk LH, then the only hub in Switzerland is ZRH. If we talk LX, then I think it would be unfair not to mention the dual-hub strategy they are having, with ZRH and GVA.

I do not agree. A hub is an airport for transfer passengers mainly from short to long-haul. GVA has short-haul SWISS connections, point to point and only one long-haul (JFK). Therefore I would not call GVA a SWISS hub.


User currently offlineaviationmaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2473 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1861 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 19):
Remember the first flight of the new LX ZRH-GVA v.v. to emphasize the importance of Geneva.

First LX flight was LX2991 from BSL to ZRH.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 1861 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 21):
Quoting something (Reply 16):
then LX will likely become an all 787 widebody airline as a result.

I don't think so. LX want's an aircraft with 50 seats more than the current A 340-300. I think even an eventual 787-1000 will be too small. Therefore an 777-300 or a 350-1000 will have the size.

I have read this too, but I still believe that LX's longhaul replacement will ultimately depend on LH. The A350 seems like a very elegant choice to cover LH, SN, LX and OS (763, 772, 332, 333, 343, 346). But that would be too Airbus heavy. Maybe we'll see the A350 and 787 operated alongside each other, in a 789 and A351 split up. But even that scenario would leave LX with mostly 787s.

Aesthetically speaking, Swiss should buy A359 and 748. Unfortunately, chances of that happening are approaching nil.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
25 AntonovA330 : This is quite some news (or still a strong rumour?) as LX have been very loyal to Airbus due to fleet commonality - also a cost factor. Boeing sells
26 Ferroviarius : Could they take the 345s from Singapore Airlines as an interim solution? Best, Ferroviarius
27 TomFoolery : Interesting that you mention OS. OS is the only one of the LH family who operates 777-200. It would seem more logical that if a 777 were to be chosen
28 PhilInBRN : I suppose, in the case that LX opts for the 77W, the 3 class layout would be in the range of 290 to 300 seats (similar to the 3 class layout employed
29 LXA340 : Well taking into consideration the fleet comonality aspect SWISS will remain with Airbus; nevertheless it could be that a fleet of 15 + aircraft is la
30 jayeshrulz : Exactly my words mate. I am sorry but you are totally wrong here. Who said a hub is a place for "short to long haul"? An airline hub is an airport th
31 something : There is also LH Cargo. But if LH Passage wanted 777s, they would have already bought them. Neither the demand in Switzerland, nor the expected deliv
32 aviationmaster : The fleet has nothing to do with this. Due to it's size, Switzerland's home market does not allow for a profitable full-scale two hub operation. Even
33 sandrozrh : You are wrong mate. ZRH is LX's hub and GVA a focus city for mostly p2p services with a limited availability of connecting possibilities. This has be
34 ZRH : Thanx Sandro, that is exactly what I wanted to say. Funnily I also wanted to answer with the example DUS. A second hub would be deadly for SWISS.
35 runway23 : I'm not so sure. A hub the size of ZRH replicated in GVA, of course not. But a small focus operation with 4-5 longhaul destinations could easily work
36 mah4546 : GVA's busiest long-haul markets are New York, Washington, Dubai, Miami, Los Angeles and Montreal.
37 PhilInBRN : No, there frankly isn't enough O&D demand that would guarantee a success on these routes without having a large scale short haul feed or cannibal
38 mah4546 : LAXGVA and MIAGVA - each around 60 PDEW - are large enough to support non-stop service in theory, 3-4x a week each, especially considering non-stop s
39 runway23 : GRU is 39'000 pax per year, GIG 20'000 and EZE 25'000. With good connections a GRU flight would do fine. NRT is 46'000 pax SIN 31'000 - 55% high yiel
40 runway23 : I think you need to put this into perspective. GVA-LHR being reduced by 7x per week, as one of the daily slots is being used for transatlantic flight
41 Post contains links flyingturtle : Oh noes. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair#History . I've helped to translate the Swissair history stuff for the English Wikipedia. David
42 PhilInBRN : And how many of these passengers currently transfer at either ZRH, FRA or MUC? From a strategic point of view (economies of scale, hub and spoke syst
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