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EU 'Suspends' ETS  
User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1323 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1168 times:

Sorry if this has already been posted, but I haven't seen a topic on it.

Apparently, the EU has 'suspended' the ETS for one year, according to the linked BBC article.

Seems the political pressure paid off - will this pave the way for further A380 orders from China do we think? Are the various air rights disputes likely to be resolved? Is a one year suspension enough of a concession?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20299388

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24880 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

There was a story about this last week.

Basically things are placed on hold until September 2013 awaiting ICAO draft measure which could be adopted by the UN general assembly next year.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19196 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1169 times:

Seems it's only for "foreign" airlines. Per Flightglobal: "operators for flights within the EU will still be required to fulfil their obligations, as previously instructed."

Also:

The European Union is willing to exclude intercontinental flights from the bloc's Emissions Trading System (ETS) until October 2013 as a "gesture of good faith" to help finding a global solution.

Connie Hedegaard, EU commissioner for climate action, has recommended that the union's 27 member states "stop the clock" for flights to and from locations outside the EU until after the next general assembly of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) in October 2013.

If no global solution can be found during the one-year timeframe, however, the EU ETS would "automatically" apply again for the respective flights.

Airbus welcomed the EU's proposal. Fabrice Brégier, the airframer's chief executive, says that the "positive cooperation" between ICAO and the European Commission is a "real chance to make progress on a worldwide agreement on aviation CO2 emissions".

[Edited 2012-11-12 08:54:20]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1169 times:

It only applies for Intercontinental flights.

Flights within the EU will still have to comply with ETS.


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 2):
If no global solution can be found during the one-year timeframe, however, the EU ETS would "automatically" apply again for the respective flights.

And if they try to pull that one again, sanctions would immediately be applied. I think intercontinental ETS is as good as dead now; China, the US, Russia and other countries (how well the EU unites the world - against them!) would communicate their intention in no uncertain terms to apply serious sanctions and limits, possibly also blocks on Airbus sales. Unless their seriously inept or stupid, they won't go down this road again.

Thank goodness the EU has finally landed on Planet Reality.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

I'm surprised. I thought ETS would have died before it began, but after lasting so long, I thought it was here to stay...


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineaznmadsci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3660 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1173 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 3):
It only applies for Intercontinental flights.

Flights within the EU will still have to comply with ETS.

So does this effect LA, SQ, and a few other airlines that do 5th freedom flights within the EU?



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently onlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8232 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1173 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
Thank goodness the EU has finally landed on Planet Reality.

And I'm am waiting to see fares drop since the biggest complaint from airlines was that they had to raise fares and thta would cause them to lose passengers. I won't hold my breath on that one.


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3937 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1171 times:
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A nice move that allows everyone to come away with their head high.

The EU claims it is getting what it wanted all along, an ICAO-level solution (to be fair, they did ask for one for years), and if it is indeed within sight, it would be stupid to dump more oil on the fire now.

Opponents can claim they killed the ETS as far as it relates to long-distance flights, despite very strong resolve from the EU.

So everyone walks away happy.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

I guess Turkish Airlines is the biggest winner here.

User currently onlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8232 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1170 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 9):
I guess Turkish Airlines is the biggest winner here.

Or loser, depending on how you look at it. Of the large European carriers, they would not have been subjected to ETS since they are not in the EU, and if you believe the industry, would have had a financial advantage over the competition (i.e. AF, LH, BA). Also IST would have been a prefered hub over other EU hubs. Again, if you believe the industry.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1170 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Thread starter):
Seems the political pressure paid off

No. It was stated explicitly that the reason for the temporary suspension are ''encouraging developments at ICAO''. This doesn't mean ''no more ets'', it means ''ets for everyone''. It stands to reason that whatever it is ICAO will be implementing will be a lot softer on the airlines than the current ETS, but something is going to happen. And if it doesn't, then ETS is back in its original form.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinePlane Holland From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1170 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):

Thank goodness the EU has finally landed on Planet Reality.


Really, do you think they did? The EU is all about taxing the hell out of everyone. Being Dutch I know all about it.. This was a stupid plan, being about saving the environment, reducing co2 etc.. In the end none of that money is spent on a better climate, it all goes to Brussels.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

Quoting Plane Holland (Reply 12):
In the end none of that money is spent on a better climate, it all goes to Brussels.

Care to substantiate such claims?



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

To all those who think ETS is dead, I think you're wrong.. If ICAO comes up with an own solution, the EU got what it wanted all along. But that's a big if. Presumably there won't be any solution at ICAO levels and ETS will be back next year - then the whole things starts all over.

If the Chinese are smart, they'll order some A380 bait now, just to say "see how much money you can make if you play along nicely"?



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2585 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

This is a more sensible approach - we suspend intercontinental ETS (not willingly of course, but due to all the pressure), and put more pressure on finding an ICAO solution - if you manage to agree at ICAO level, we'll drop it at EU level. But intercontinental ETS is not over, this is just a new chapter in the political game.

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
To all those who think ETS is dead, I think you're wrong.. If ICAO comes up with an own solution, the EU got what it wanted all along.

basically you are roight, but when ICAO has a solution, that solution must be discussed and ratified by all countries before it becomes effective.

One can bet the life income that this will never happen within a year. China and the USA will not change theoir views and if at all, the outcome will be a scaled down version oif what the EU intended. This kind of modern indulgence trade is viewed differently by countries outside the EU and that is good.

The only bitter pill is, that this taxation is carried on inside the EU and feeder flights to hubs are still affected, whereas some carriers who serve their outside the EU hubs are still at a huge advantage.

Looks like the EU commission does not want to understand how aviation works.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineCerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 727 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Thread starter):
will this pave the way for further A380 orders from China do we think
Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
If the Chinese are smart, they'll order some A380 bait now

TBH, this is unlikely. CZ is still finding it challenging to operate A380s, CA and MU both have large 77W/748i orders. I think Airbus orders from China will be predominantly narrowbodies with a modest number of A330s and maybe A350s.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
the outcome will be a scaled down version oif what the EU intended.

As I said a few times before, I am puzzled by what EU wanted to achieve with the ETS when applied to aviation. I am all for progress on pollution reduction and I applaud the initiative although I personally doubt environmental concern is major driving force. However, the execution of this ETS was so naive it almost makes one think "are they serious?". It is hard to believe that those who come up with the specific terms of the ETS actually thought had any chance of implementing the policy without countries like China and the US going up in arms.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1169 times:

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 17):
As I said a few times before, I am puzzled by what EU wanted to achieve with the ETS when applied to aviation

There are million of people running around in Europe who believe that avisation is one of the biggest climate killers. That's hysteria brought upon by politicians who need an issue they can ride on winning them elections.

That airlines who have to pay that and possible cannot hand down the full costs to the passengers due to competition (another item these politicians do not understand because many never really worked outside their field) leads to such matters. Modern indulgence trade 500 years after Martin Luther. Money rippd off and going into black holes. Even well managed carriers are struggling these days, the money would better be invested in modern aircraft.

We may not hear it from Brussels, but I think the fact that China threatened to cancel large Airbus orders is direct connected to the "temporary" withdrawal. Which is half hearted only since we still have to pay this non-sense on European flights.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1169 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
China and the USA will not change theoir views and if at all, the outcome will be a scaled down version oif what the EU intended.

Apparently the US has been one of the driving factors behind this re-negotiation. Possibly because they've had the most to lose and know full well that anything ICAO draws up will be cheaper than ETS.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 17):
It is hard to believe that those who come up with the specific terms of the ETS actually thought had any chance of implementing the policy without countries like China and the US going up in arms.

Europe is a very rich continent and that's why people here can lavishly afford ideologies. Will be interesting to see for how much longer.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7072 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1168 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 2):
says that the "positive cooperation" between ICAO and the European Commission is a "real chance to make progress on a worldwide agreement on aviation CO2 emissions".[

I thought the EU bought in the ETS because they could not get ICAO on their side and stated that the change was needed immediately to protect the European climate from further damage, I may have read wrong.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 7):
And I'm am waiting to see fares drop since the biggest complaint from airlines was that they had to raise fares and thta would cause them to lose passengers.
Quoting airbazar (Reply 7):
I won't hold my breath on that one.

Agree, holding your breath will kill you, I held mine when oil fell and the surcharge stayed on longer than I could 
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
There are million of people running around in Europe who believe that avisation is one of the biggest climate killers.

If the number is that high who is complaining about the cost you mention below?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
Which is half hearted only since we still have to pay this non-sense on European flights.
Quoting something (Reply 19):
Apparently the US has been one of the driving factors behind this re-negotiation. Possibly because they've had the most to lose

How so, I was under the impression that the majority of pax flying TATL was being done on non-USA carriers with superior service and new and efficient wide body a/c.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1168 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 20):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
Which is half hearted only since we still have to pay this non-sense on European flights.
Quoting something (Reply 19):
Apparently the US has been one of the driving factors behind this re-negotiation. Possibly because they've had the most to lose

How so, I was under the impression that the majority of pax flying TATL was being done on non-USA carriers with superior service and new and efficient wide body a/c.

Out of all the non EU countries that'd be affected by the ETS, the US carriers have by far the largest presence in Europe. They have more flights to Europe than Chinese or Indian airlines for example.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7072 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1168 times:

Quoting something (Reply 21):
Out of all the non EU countries that'd be affected by the ETS, the US carriers have by far the largest presence in Europe. They have more flights to Europe than Chinese or Indian airlines for example.

Ok, so you are looking at number of airlines per country, fine. I am under the impression that the market will bear the brunt, no airline will pax this tax, the pax will and since it is going to the government.
Since the tyax applies equally to carriers from both sides what is primary is who takes the bulk of the pax, they will be the first to determine whether it has an effect on pax numbers.


User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1168 times:

Having recently priced airfare to Europe from the USA, it amazed me that FARE was 380, and the TAXES were around 600 dollars. What happened to "USD 3 Departure Tax?"


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineCerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 727 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1167 times:

Quoting something (Reply 19):
Europe is a very rich continent and that's why people here can lavishly afford ideologies. Will be interesting to see for how much longer.

European economy is still threatening to drag the whole world down, isn't now the worst time for such a project? Greece, Spain etc are having massive problems.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
I think the fact that China threatened to cancel large Airbus orders is direct connected to the "temporary" withdrawal.

  
The execution of this policy is riddled with almost comical flaws.
If the scheme is really aimed at reducing pollution, why not set up a fund that directly supports clean/renewable energy, improving energy efficiency etc., rather than letting the income flow into the "general" fund?
Why attract unnecessary sovereignty controversy by insisting on taxing the whole trip over territory that EU has no jurisdiction over (The ECJ ruling on this issue is so unbecoming I am even going to comment on it)? Why not simply charge a tax (they can even have rate A for intra-Europe flight and rate B for intercontinental flight)?
Why adopt the "grandfather principle" so that historical big polluters are rewarded with higher quota?
Why adopt an aggressive attitude and refuse to budge an inch while countries like China hold all the cards?
It seems to me EU wanted to grab some cash while establishing itself as the leader of environmental protection. However, it picked the wrong fight at the wrong time.


25 EI564 : There seems to be a lot of confusion about what ETS is doing. 1) The income doesn't go into a general fund. Or at least, not the majority of it (as f
26 RickNRoll : The impact on fares is minimal, and it is the result of policies to mediate a climate problem that has been discovered as teh result of scientific re
27 Post contains links Cerecl : Not what Scott Hamilton seems to believe. http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2012...now-but-says-it-didnt-really-cave/ Happy to be proven wrong though.
28 cmf : At least when you look at it like the devil reads the bible. If? How can you have any doubt? It sets a cap. Each year the cap is lowered. It means th
29 par13del : Which to a large degree is illogical, unless one is looking at moving the world towards a colony system again. If the majority of the long haul trip
30 moo : If the airline does business in the EU, the EU has every right to do whatever it wants until that airline ceases to to business within the EU, within
31 PanHAM : The problem with that opinion is, that traffic rights are subject to reciprocal agreements, which, among many items, gives the foreign carrier immuni
32 moo : Except it doesn't give them immunity at all - APD, local sales taxes etc etc all feature. Any airline that takes payment from an EU citizen and then
33 cmf : There is nothing suggesting a colony system. Sorry to say but how can you be this ignorant after all information provided about ETS? It is about redu
34 PanHAM : Which is handed down to the passengers. Sales Tax (VAT) for instance is not levied on air fares in Europe. Not even on domestic parts of internationa
35 Post contains links moo : All taxes are ultimately handed down to passengers - its still up to the airlines to collect them. With regard to the APD, the liability for it lies
36 PanHAM : you mistake the passenger "taxes" which are airport fees and all kind of BS with profit or sales taxes, of which foreign carriers are excempt. Based
37 cmf : Since ETS isn't a tax that isn't a problem.
38 par13del : Ah, so one can expect all the technology exported to third world countries from the EU which create pollution to either cease or to have prices raise
39 luckyone : In my humble opinion, this is a face-saving move. It seems as though the EU has realized that A) they're overstepping their jurisdiction (ie taxing ou
40 cmf : ??? This only affect flight going to or from EU. Fly over EU all you want but don't land and the flight isn't included in ETS. Still do not understan
41 PanHAM : in a world where ., since ages the term "duty free" is abused, this is pure rhethorical. Whatever it is called, tax, duty excise etc., the effect is
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