LondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1202 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 931 times:
KLM has just announced it will fly x 2 daily between Manston airport in Kent and Amsterdam effective April 2 next year. Bookings will open on November 14.
Flights will be operated by 80-seater F70s.
I believe it's the first time that Manston has been linked to Amsterdam. This little-known airport is convenient for travellers based in SE England and Kent. It's not too far from from the suburbs of SE London by road.
As one might expect, KL's schedules are designed to feed its Amsterdam hub.
avion660 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 196 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 943 times:
Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter): This little-known airport is convenient for travellers based in SE England and Kent. It's not too far from from the suburbs of SE London by road.
Er, are you sure? It's got to be at least 65 miles and getting on for an hour and 20 - 30 minutes to get from the London suburbs. Manston is not that handy for west Kent either (west of Maidstone) .. Gatwick has that sown up. East Kent (surely the only market) probably has a population of 500,000. This new route would have been a better idea in the days when a major international company like Pfizer was based in Sandwich (less than 10 miles from Manston); not sure now though.
Quoting damian (Reply 1): Didn't the short-lived EU Jet briefly operate F100s between MSE and AMS back in 2004/05?
They lasted what, a year at Manston (sorry, Kent International)?
LondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1202 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 941 times:
Quoting avion660 (Reply 5): They lasted what, a year at Manston (sorry, Kent International)?
KLM has deeper pockets than EU Jet.
Quoting avion660 (Reply 5): Er, are you sure? It's got to be at least 65 miles and getting on for an hour and 20 - 30 minutes to get from the London suburbs. Manston is not that handy for west Kent either (west of Maidstone) .. Gatwick has that sown up.
Fair point. I was thinking more in terms of the outer SE suburbs rather than areas closer to Central London. I agree that LGW is closer but this is a KLM service and is therefore aimed at passengers connecting onto KLM's global network. If you take a BA flight from LGW you lose the advantage of a special KLM fare beyond AMS while with U2 you cannot interline.
Yes, KLM does fly from LCY but traffic conditions (to access LCY) can be tricky at peak times from the outer SE suburbs because of the Blackwall Tunnel, A2, M25, Dartford Crossing, A13 and so on.
On the other hand, driving to Manston for KLM's morning flights in the morning means going against the traffic flow so the journey is more predictable. Another advantage, I am sure, will be cheap car parking at Manston.
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 4): That's going to last long, No really it will.
It certainly will. The East Kent area is one of the most isolated areas of the country in terms of access to commercial air services, especially considering the relative wealth of it's catchment area. Prior to this their nearest airport was LCY, some 75 miles away. The direct catchment area runs from Medway, down to Maidstone and on to Hastings on the South coast. That's pretty big and is an area with a high propensity to fly.
Quoting Richcandy (Reply 6): Thinking along the lines of connecting traffic, rather than just AMS.
That will be key. A big undeserved market and only a few hundred seats to fill each day. If it's not thrice daily within a year I'd be surprised.
affirmative From France, joined Jul 2009, 308 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 944 times:
Funny.. Just flew the NDB approach at Manston today. And doing it again tomorrow.. They have a big old runway and it's sad it's not used for more than a few cargo flights a week and training flights..
Richcandy From France, joined Aug 2001, 696 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 942 times:
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11): AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?
Isn't it a very different market?
With Liverpool there EZY already flight the route and picking up the point to point. Then you have KLM flying from Manchester which is reasonably close. Closer than cities like Canterbury are from Gatwick.
LondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1202 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 941 times:
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11): AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?
Yes, but LPL is close to MAN from where there is a greater choice of flights to AMS.
As has been noted above, the East Kent area is 75 miles from LCY which is the closest airport with KLM (Cityjet) links. Here in the Southeast, it's not so much the distance it's the fact that driving conditions to LCY are so unpredictable thanks to the Blackwall Tunnel/Dartford River Crossing.
GCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1104 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 939 times:
Another example of increasing competition between the big European carriers:
BA announce RTM-LHR to attract Dutch customers into the long haul network at LHR (and RTM is only 60km from AMS).
KL announce MSE-AMS to attract UK customers into the long haul network at AMS.
BA announce LBA-LHR to attract flyers away from LBA-AMS and into BA's long haul network instead of KL's. etc. etc.
We are probably going to see a lot more of this as it becomes a three way knife fight ... BA/IB v KL/AF v LH/its team.
marky From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 197 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 941 times:
Quoting avion660 (Reply 5): Er, are you sure? It's got to be at least 65 miles and getting on for an hour and 20 - 30 minutes to get from the London suburbs.
Depends how far into London you are talking about - I would consider I live in the London suburbs (inside the M25 in a London borough) and I can drive to Manston in an hour. Apart from the last 2 or 3 miles it is relatively quiet dual carriageway road all the way. LGW or STN take 45 minutes and LHR an hour plus. The convenience of parking etc at Manston easily makes the overall journey door to door shorter.
Don't get me wrong, I don't imagine too many people from SE London would consider Manston over the London airports even if KLM do some serious marketing but if I have need to go to AMS I'd certainly give it a go.
EuroWings From UK - England, joined Sep 2011, 298 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 940 times:
Interesting and if marketed effectively, I could see MSE - AMS working as a long-standing route. KL is of course a very well established operator out of the UK "regions" and I agree with the above poster that BA's announcement of new RTM/LBA-LHR routes are likely to have influenced this decision. BA has automatically become stronger since BD mainline's demise and competitors are taking notice.
LPL - AMS and MSE - AMS are two very different routes. The former was up against a strong EZY point-to-point offering and MAN's services barely 35 miles away.
YVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2087 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 939 times:
Quoting Richcandy (Reply 6): Small aircraft operating just twice a day and the nearest alternative (LGW) being 70-90 mins away
But KLM dont fly from LGW, so they are competing with U2 & BA for O&D & Europe and EK & QR for longhaul or LHR, which can be a right fix to get to from Kent if the M25 is busy.
And a network with all the "legacy" perks, not just O&D traffic.
Quoting LondonCity (Reply 7): Fair point. I was thinking more in terms of the outer SE suburbs rather than areas closer to Central London
Quoting marky (Reply 18): Depends how far into London you are talking about - I would consider I live in the London suburbs (inside the M25 in a London borough) and I can drive to Manston in an hour. Apart from the last 2 or 3 miles it is relatively quiet dual carriageway road all the way
I used MSE once in the EUjet days - I admit I was probably driving faster than I should have been, but it took me an hour on a Sunday night from North London (A406 / A10 junction pretty much)!! The M2 is a pretty good road once past Bexley area and I think its convenience is somewhat dismissed.
Quoting marky (Reply 18): Don't get me wrong, I don't imagine too many people from SE London would consider Manston over the London airports even if KLM do some serious marketing but if I have need to go to AMS I'd certainly give it a go.
Im not so sure, KLM offer a lot of good destinations in Africa, Asia, CIS, Europe and even US. It could be just as convenient as trying to get round to LHR and avoid all the related crowds for security etc.
KLM have success in serving airports like HUY & NWI which are in the boonies with supposedly little local market (yes, I know they have oil traffic).
Richcandy From France, joined Aug 2001, 696 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 935 times:
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 20): But KLM dont fly from LGW, so they are competing with U2 & BA for O&D & Europe and EK & QR for longhaul or LHR, which can be a right fix to get to from Kent if the M25 is busy.
Was not thinking of KLM, I was just thinking of the closest airport (other than LCY).
Quoting FI642 (Reply 21): Interesting to say the least. Connect via AMS or fly non-stop from LHR or LGW. Hmmm
If you live in Canterbury area.
LHR/LGW = Long drive to the airport, busy terminal but non stop flight.
MSE = short drive to the airport, near empty terminal but other than AMS you need to connect.
I guess a lot depends on the connection time.
When I worked in the industry (years ago) people who lived in Norfolk would pay more to fly KLM out of NWI rather than drive to LHR/LGW/LCY.
anstar From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 4845 posts, RR: 6 Reply 24, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 935 times:
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 20):
But KLM dont fly from LGW, so they are competing with U2 & BA for O&D & Europe
BA have cut their LGW-AMS even more for next season. U2 is winning that war.
I woudl expect this is more of a feed for long haul than attracting O&D.
25 SKAirbus: You can't really compare that to East Kent... First of all Rotterdam is the second largest city in the Netherlands with nearly 700,000 people and is
26 Ratypus: If they can keep check-in times at MSE short, this might just work from Kent and South London for connections onto KLM's long-haul network. As several
28 Pe@rson: Given there's a codeshare between EXT and CDG with BE and AF, with onward connections facilitated, it doesn't seem, from my brief search, also to appl
29 JU068: So what kind of markets are they aiming for here? Asia? Europe? Africa?
30 PlymSpotter: Apparently because setting up the arrangement is not financially viable for FlyBe on a one daily flight. Not useful at all, the fares are ridiculous
31 Richcandy: I guess whatever they can get. However it must be easier to sell connections to long haul cities over AMS rather than short haul.
32 PlymSpotter: Just an interesting point to add, in terms of connectivity (directly to a hub airport, or to an airport with at least twice daily services to a major
33 LondonCity: That is a good point to make. Having Manston on an aviation map means it becomes easier when the local chamber of commerce seeks overseas business an
34 GCT64: There is also the cost, availability, itinerary issue. Plenty of people I know end up "doubling back" on the themselves on itineraries for many diffe
35 shilenb: Just had a look at the fares on KL's website and the prices seem reasonable. 99GBP return for the weekend in april
36 Humberside: Can't be right. KLM codeshare on BE's once daily INV-AMS http://www.flybe.com/franchise_codeshare/codeshares.htm
37 Vasu: Not the worst... but I do also wish Manston would get some low-cost flights!
38 PlymSpotter: Yes it can if you already have a codeshare in place on another route. Dan
39 Humberside: Then why not EXT-AMS as well? If frequency determines a codeshare, then it makes no sense why INV has one, and EXT (or EMA for that matter) does not.
40 PlymSpotter: In the case of EMA there is, the route has only just commenced. In the case of EXT the once daily codeshare service to CDG comfortably satisfies curr
41 Viscount724: Except AMS is a much more convenient and pleasant connecting hub than CDG. Given the choice of connecting at CDG or AMS I would pick AMS every time.
42 PlymSpotter: Personally I feel the same way too, but I can see that from a bean counters perspective it's a no brainer. Worth remembering here that the choice is
43 raffik: That's good news for Manston. I drove by it once and it seemed in the middle of nowhere. I guess there is a cachement area however and I hope it does
44 Bongodog1964: The above concurs with my understanding of East Kent, I believe it has in the past been an area that qualifies for EU money on the basis of its depri
45 Giancavia: I cant, They have had all these years to do it and haven't for a reason. EUjet came along and nobody batted and eyelid because it wasnt competition i
46 babybus: Wow, as long as that. I'll give it 9 months. Three months of that running with the seats nearly empty. That route will be as useful to SE England as
47 peterinlisbon: Airport charges have to be far lower at Manston, plus the flight is very short (especially considering there is no traffic / holiding as at Heathrow)
48 LX138: People seem positive, but honestly? This will not last. I don't think less fuel will help. The average customer doesn't really care about traffic and
49 PlymSpotter: It's a much wider picture than that. For an area/location to attract business and investment it needs to be well connected by road, rail and air - th
50 offloaded: KL does well out of NWI, but I think there is a lot of oil traffic on that route....
51 Richcandy: Its a fairly mixed area, as far as wealth goes. There are lots of towns with employment issues. However there are also reasonably wealthy areas, Whit
52 factsonly: The pessimists on this forum may possibly overlook that KLM is an expert at providing smaller markets with worldwide connections at a relatively high
53 factsonly: Check out the Manston Airport website to see who promotes who: http://www.manstonairport.com/ This may be a useful article to clarify what markets are
54 Giancavia: Where were all those people anytime anyone has operated pax services from Manston in the past? They didnt seem to want to turn up.. This will be no d
55 raffik: My mother lives in Whitstable and I am near Lewes. Getting to her can take over 2 hours- either the M23/M35 route which can be hell if there is heavy
56 PlymSpotter: There's no comparison here to carriers like EU Jet, for quite obvious reasons. On that basis then, why do KLM, Air France, Swiss, Lufthansa etc... al
57 vfw614: At MME, HUY and NWI, KLM has 100.000-125.000 pax annually, are operating the most important route at each airport and are the only carrier providing a
58 mainMAN: Apologies for being very pedantic, but this isn't quite right. I'd imagine East Kent and Greater Liverpool are quite similar in these respects. (edit
59 SuperCaravelle: I wouldn't be surprised if KLM doesn't pay too much or even gets money for flying there, that should also be taken into account. Moreover, with those
60 PlymSpotter: Speaking about direct catchment areas no, not at all. LPL's is well connected by direct short haul LCC flights and is heavily cannibalised by MAN whi
61 LX138: I don't doubt that if anyone is to make it work, it's KLM, but how many people from Herne Bay want to go to Hangzhou? How many people from Folkestone
62 joost: Gatwick has a great short-haul network, but it's longhaul network is rather limited. The American network carriers are almost gone (only US to CLT le
63 factsonly: The location of Manston Airport is a fact. People's behaviour is less rational, often driven by price and convenience. Ryanair has shown that people
64 JU068: KLM is a well established carrier in the United Kingdom and carries hundreds of thousands of passengers every year. So even if not many people will be
65 avion660: If you are thinking that by connecting after a short international flight you will save on APD then unfortunately you need to be aware that the APD r
66 LJ: If bookings for S12 are low, you won't see KL at MSE. If the route is not succesful, it won't make it till the end of S13. If KL booking for S13 are
67 Viscount724: Price is an important factor. Most people, even many business travellers, are price-sensitive these days, and connecting routings are usually cheaper
68 seansasLCY: Surely this would be a great route for a F50? Why not bring Ci There are three daily EK flights to DXB. LGW also recently got Air China (a few times a
69 PlymSpotter: I don't have the references I'd need to be sure on this machine, but IIRC the operating costs per seat are not that dissimilar as the F70 is pretty e
70 JU068: Looking at KLM's route network how come they do not operate any Dash-8s? I think it would be perfect for them, or am I mistaken?
71 Giancavia: Forget the Dash 8, They should buy some Cessna 172's for this route.
72 JU068: I am not talking about this particular route, I am talking about their regional network. Also I do not see why you feel such need to constantly predi
73 Giancavia: When an airline makes absurd decisions it leaves itself open to mockery. With the theory you have just used would you like to explain KLM and Liverpoo
74 JU068: No, I will not because there is an explanation about their Liverpool flights above.
75 PlymSpotter: For the very shortest routes there would be slight advantage right now, but the upcoming generation of engines are going to see economics of small je
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