LondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1202 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 937 times:
KLM has just announced it will fly x 2 daily between Manston airport in Kent and Amsterdam effective April 2 next year. Bookings will open on November 14.
Flights will be operated by 80-seater F70s.
I believe it's the first time that Manston has been linked to Amsterdam. This little-known airport is convenient for travellers based in SE England and Kent. It's not too far from from the suburbs of SE London by road.
As one might expect, KL's schedules are designed to feed its Amsterdam hub.
avion660 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 196 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 949 times:
Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter): This little-known airport is convenient for travellers based in SE England and Kent. It's not too far from from the suburbs of SE London by road.
Er, are you sure? It's got to be at least 65 miles and getting on for an hour and 20 - 30 minutes to get from the London suburbs. Manston is not that handy for west Kent either (west of Maidstone) .. Gatwick has that sown up. East Kent (surely the only market) probably has a population of 500,000. This new route would have been a better idea in the days when a major international company like Pfizer was based in Sandwich (less than 10 miles from Manston); not sure now though.
Quoting damian (Reply 1): Didn't the short-lived EU Jet briefly operate F100s between MSE and AMS back in 2004/05?
They lasted what, a year at Manston (sorry, Kent International)?
LondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1202 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 947 times:
Quoting avion660 (Reply 5): They lasted what, a year at Manston (sorry, Kent International)?
KLM has deeper pockets than EU Jet.
Quoting avion660 (Reply 5): Er, are you sure? It's got to be at least 65 miles and getting on for an hour and 20 - 30 minutes to get from the London suburbs. Manston is not that handy for west Kent either (west of Maidstone) .. Gatwick has that sown up.
Fair point. I was thinking more in terms of the outer SE suburbs rather than areas closer to Central London. I agree that LGW is closer but this is a KLM service and is therefore aimed at passengers connecting onto KLM's global network. If you take a BA flight from LGW you lose the advantage of a special KLM fare beyond AMS while with U2 you cannot interline.
Yes, KLM does fly from LCY but traffic conditions (to access LCY) can be tricky at peak times from the outer SE suburbs because of the Blackwall Tunnel, A2, M25, Dartford Crossing, A13 and so on.
On the other hand, driving to Manston for KLM's morning flights in the morning means going against the traffic flow so the journey is more predictable. Another advantage, I am sure, will be cheap car parking at Manston.
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 4): That's going to last long, No really it will.
It certainly will. The East Kent area is one of the most isolated areas of the country in terms of access to commercial air services, especially considering the relative wealth of it's catchment area. Prior to this their nearest airport was LCY, some 75 miles away. The direct catchment area runs from Medway, down to Maidstone and on to Hastings on the South coast. That's pretty big and is an area with a high propensity to fly.
Quoting Richcandy (Reply 6): Thinking along the lines of connecting traffic, rather than just AMS.
That will be key. A big undeserved market and only a few hundred seats to fill each day. If it's not thrice daily within a year I'd be surprised.
affirmative From France, joined Jul 2009, 308 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 950 times:
Funny.. Just flew the NDB approach at Manston today. And doing it again tomorrow.. They have a big old runway and it's sad it's not used for more than a few cargo flights a week and training flights..
Richcandy From France, joined Aug 2001, 696 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 948 times:
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11): AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?
Isn't it a very different market?
With Liverpool there EZY already flight the route and picking up the point to point. Then you have KLM flying from Manchester which is reasonably close. Closer than cities like Canterbury are from Gatwick.
LondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1202 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 947 times:
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11): AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?
Yes, but LPL is close to MAN from where there is a greater choice of flights to AMS.
As has been noted above, the East Kent area is 75 miles from LCY which is the closest airport with KLM (Cityjet) links. Here in the Southeast, it's not so much the distance it's the fact that driving conditions to LCY are so unpredictable thanks to the Blackwall Tunnel/Dartford River Crossing.
GCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1104 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 945 times:
Another example of increasing competition between the big European carriers:
BA announce RTM-LHR to attract Dutch customers into the long haul network at LHR (and RTM is only 60km from AMS).
KL announce MSE-AMS to attract UK customers into the long haul network at AMS.
BA announce LBA-LHR to attract flyers away from LBA-AMS and into BA's long haul network instead of KL's. etc. etc.
We are probably going to see a lot more of this as it becomes a three way knife fight ... BA/IB v KL/AF v LH/its team.
marky From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 198 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 947 times:
Quoting avion660 (Reply 5): Er, are you sure? It's got to be at least 65 miles and getting on for an hour and 20 - 30 minutes to get from the London suburbs.
Depends how far into London you are talking about - I would consider I live in the London suburbs (inside the M25 in a London borough) and I can drive to Manston in an hour. Apart from the last 2 or 3 miles it is relatively quiet dual carriageway road all the way. LGW or STN take 45 minutes and LHR an hour plus. The convenience of parking etc at Manston easily makes the overall journey door to door shorter.
Don't get me wrong, I don't imagine too many people from SE London would consider Manston over the London airports even if KLM do some serious marketing but if I have need to go to AMS I'd certainly give it a go.
EuroWings From UK - England, joined Sep 2011, 298 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 946 times:
Interesting and if marketed effectively, I could see MSE - AMS working as a long-standing route. KL is of course a very well established operator out of the UK "regions" and I agree with the above poster that BA's announcement of new RTM/LBA-LHR routes are likely to have influenced this decision. BA has automatically become stronger since BD mainline's demise and competitors are taking notice.
LPL - AMS and MSE - AMS are two very different routes. The former was up against a strong EZY point-to-point offering and MAN's services barely 35 miles away.
YVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2094 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 945 times:
Quoting Richcandy (Reply 6): Small aircraft operating just twice a day and the nearest alternative (LGW) being 70-90 mins away
But KLM dont fly from LGW, so they are competing with U2 & BA for O&D & Europe and EK & QR for longhaul or LHR, which can be a right fix to get to from Kent if the M25 is busy.
And a network with all the "legacy" perks, not just O&D traffic.
Quoting LondonCity (Reply 7): Fair point. I was thinking more in terms of the outer SE suburbs rather than areas closer to Central London
Quoting marky (Reply 18): Depends how far into London you are talking about - I would consider I live in the London suburbs (inside the M25 in a London borough) and I can drive to Manston in an hour. Apart from the last 2 or 3 miles it is relatively quiet dual carriageway road all the way
I used MSE once in the EUjet days - I admit I was probably driving faster than I should have been, but it took me an hour on a Sunday night from North London (A406 / A10 junction pretty much)!! The M2 is a pretty good road once past Bexley area and I think its convenience is somewhat dismissed.
Quoting marky (Reply 18): Don't get me wrong, I don't imagine too many people from SE London would consider Manston over the London airports even if KLM do some serious marketing but if I have need to go to AMS I'd certainly give it a go.
Im not so sure, KLM offer a lot of good destinations in Africa, Asia, CIS, Europe and even US. It could be just as convenient as trying to get round to LHR and avoid all the related crowds for security etc.
KLM have success in serving airports like HUY & NWI which are in the boonies with supposedly little local market (yes, I know they have oil traffic).
Richcandy From France, joined Aug 2001, 696 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 941 times:
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 20): But KLM dont fly from LGW, so they are competing with U2 & BA for O&D & Europe and EK & QR for longhaul or LHR, which can be a right fix to get to from Kent if the M25 is busy.
Was not thinking of KLM, I was just thinking of the closest airport (other than LCY).
Quoting FI642 (Reply 21): Interesting to say the least. Connect via AMS or fly non-stop from LHR or LGW. Hmmm
If you live in Canterbury area.
LHR/LGW = Long drive to the airport, busy terminal but non stop flight.
MSE = short drive to the airport, near empty terminal but other than AMS you need to connect.
I guess a lot depends on the connection time.
When I worked in the industry (years ago) people who lived in Norfolk would pay more to fly KLM out of NWI rather than drive to LHR/LGW/LCY.
SKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1327 posts, RR: 2 Reply 25, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1199 times:
Quoting GCT64 (Reply 17):
BA announce RTM-LHR to attract Dutch customers into the long haul network at LHR (and RTM is only 60km from AMS).
You can't really compare that to East Kent... First of all Rotterdam is the second largest city in the Netherlands with nearly 700,000 people and is a huge economic centre, including Europe's largest port. East Kent, is unfortunately a comparitively deprived area with very little high-yielding businesses in the vicinity. There was Pfizer in Sandwich but that is being dramatically scaled back.
Then again... KLM have a habit of making unlikely destinations work. They just started operating to Ålesund twice a day so we'll see!
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319), OSL-LHR (321), LHR-ARN (320), ARN-VXO (S34), VXO-BMA (ATP), ARN-LHR (763), LHR-CPH (320), C
Ratypus From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 176 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1166 times:
If they can keep check-in times at MSE short, this might just work from Kent and South London for connections onto KLM's long-haul network. As several people have pointed out, MSE is an easy and predictable drive out of South London (as opposed to LHR or City, both of which could be infinitely delayed by traffic...); if they can keep check-in times short (and given the flight timings out of MSE), then for much of KLM's long-haul network out of AMS they might be able to make up the 'extra' time with a quick connection.....this already works fairly well out of LCY; from South/East London, it is actually quicker if you travelling to, say, the Far East, to hop over to LCY with a 15-minute check-in and do a quick change in AMS, than to trek all the way over to LHR, check-in 1 or 2 hours ahead of time and fly long-haul directly.
The fact that AMS is a really easy airport to connect in will help too (single terminal, clearly signed, the operation clearly designed with connections in mind - unlike LHR (bar T5), US airports etc). I would consider using this route if flying long-haul eastbound (even though I live fairly near LCY, the Blackwall Tunnel traffic always makes for a nervous ride to the airport...)
Pe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 18838 posts, RR: 54 Reply 28, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1324 times:
Given there's a codeshare between EXT and CDG with BE and AF, with onward connections facilitated, it doesn't seem, from my brief search, also to apply with KL via AMS. This is from my search on KLM's UK website. Anyone know why?
In any case, 1x daily isn't useful for connections, so clearly it is based upon local traffic with any connecting traffic a bonus.
[Edited 2012-11-14 02:51:57]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
Apparently because setting up the arrangement is not financially viable for FlyBe on a one daily flight.
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 28): In any case, 1x daily isn't useful for connections, so clearly it is based upon local traffic with any connecting traffic a bonus.
Not useful at all, the fares are ridiculous and the connection times are have been around 8 hours for the last trip options I looked at. It used to be double daily, as I think Amsterdam was, and the AF code-share was applied when the second flight still operated.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11136 posts, RR: 63 Reply 32, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1287 times:
Just an interesting point to add, in terms of connectivity (directly to a hub airport, or to an airport with at least twice daily services to a major hub) Manston has gone straight into the top ten, having been almost in last place.
No wonder the local chamber of commerce and council have gotten excited - that is a big boost for the area's economic prospects.
LondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1202 posts, RR: 0 Reply 33, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1291 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 32): No wonder the local chamber of commerce and council have gotten excited - that is a big boost for the area's economic prospects.
That is a good point to make. Having Manston on an aviation map means it becomes easier when the local chamber of commerce seeks overseas business and investment. A potential investor would baulk at the thought of having to travel to East Kent all the way from one of the London airports.
GCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1104 posts, RR: 1 Reply 34, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1233 times:
Quoting Richcandy (Reply 23): LHR/LGW = Long drive to the airport, busy terminal but non stop flight.
MSE = short drive to the airport, near empty terminal but other than AMS you need to connect.
Quoting JU068 (Reply 29): So what kind of markets are they aiming for here? Asia? Europe? Africa?
There is also the cost, availability, itinerary issue. Plenty of people I know end up "doubling back" on the themselves on itineraries for many different reasons and I know a lot who have flown EDI-AMS-USA even though they fly back over their house 8 hours after they walked out of the front door. I think you will find people using this link to Asia, USA and Europe if the prices are right and the AMS connection times reasonably short (certainly the flight times look to support connections to/from the US and Europe although they don't seem to support evening departures to Asia).
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4901 posts, RR: 5 Reply 39, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1143 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 38): Yes it can if you already have a codeshare in place on another route.
Then why not EXT-AMS as well?
If frequency determines a codeshare, then it makes no sense why INV has one, and EXT (or EMA for that matter) does not. There must be some other reason
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11136 posts, RR: 63 Reply 40, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1132 times:
Quoting Humberside (Reply 39): If frequency determines a codeshare, then it makes no sense why INV has one, and EXT (or EMA for that matter) does not. There must be some other reason
In the case of EMA there is, the route has only just commenced. In the case of EXT the once daily codeshare service to CDG comfortably satisfies current (limited) demand from those prepared to pay the high premium (£100 upwards) to fly from Exeter not Bristol. Even after the reduction from double daily the passenger numbers have stagnated on EXT-CDG, with a slight reduction in fact so far this year. Adding a codeshare to the AMS flight, which operates at almost exactly the same time as the CDG service, would just double associated costs but would be unlikely to generate any meaningful extra revenue. So I can understand why it has apparently been decided against.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21495 posts, RR: 24 Reply 41, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1134 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 40): Adding a codeshare to the AMS flight, which operates at almost exactly the same time as the CDG service, would just double associated costs but would be unlikely to generate any meaningful extra revenue.
Except AMS is a much more convenient and pleasant connecting hub than CDG. Given the choice of connecting at CDG or AMS I would pick AMS every time. It's by far my preferred connecting hub in Europe. Only MUC and ZRH approach AMS in convenience but AMS is still the winner in my experience.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11136 posts, RR: 63 Reply 42, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1128 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41): Except AMS is a much more convenient and pleasant connecting hub than CDG. Given the choice of connecting at CDG or AMS I would pick AMS every time. It's by far my preferred connecting hub in Europe. Only MUC and ZRH approach AMS in convenience but AMS is still the winner in my experience.
Personally I feel the same way too, but I can see that from a bean counters perspective it's a no brainer. Worth remembering here that the choice is essentially travelling another hour by road to BRS for an AMS flight, or departing EXT via CDG. Again, no contest if you are not price sensitive.
raffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1646 posts, RR: 4 Reply 43, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1116 times:
That's good news for Manston. I drove by it once and it seemed in the middle of nowhere. I guess there is a cachement area however and I hope it does well for the airline. The seats are competitive and Amsterdam is a popular destination for getaways etc.
It reminds me of Southend Airport, my home town, which for decades was more or less devoid of any scheduled air service, apart from a weekly flight to Jersey in the summer. Now when I look at the airport, it has completely transformed itself into a vibrant airport with variety and choice.
Perhaps with KLM offering services to Manston, other airlines will look at opening services from there.
I could see Ryanair offering flights out of "London Manston Airport".
Bongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3019 posts, RR: 2 Reply 44, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1101 times:
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 25): East Kent, is unfortunately a comparitively deprived area with very little high-yielding businesses in the vicinity. There was Pfizer in Sandwich but that is being dramatically scaled back.
The above concurs with my understanding of East Kent, I believe it has in the past been an area that qualifies for EU money on the basis of its deprivity, certainly the seaside towns have struggled for years with the holidaymakers often replaced by recent immigrants.
I wonder if KLM might be eligble for any financial sweeteners due to the areas relative poverty ?
Giancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1262 posts, RR: 0 Reply 45, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1103 times:
Quoting raffik (Reply 43): I could see Ryanair offering flights out of "London Manston Airport".
I cant, They have had all these years to do it and haven't for a reason.
EUjet came along and nobody batted and eyelid because it wasnt competition it was a waste of time. I think the owners lost 7 million gbp in first half of the year between the airline and the airport itself lol.
There are also some very vocal nimbys near by Manston Airport...
Good luck to KLM but yeah, I am not as optomistic as some people on here.
I will go as far as to say I see the airport dissapearing rather then getting more flights.
babybus From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3514 posts, RR: 6 Reply 46, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1113 times:
Quoting gkirk (Reply 13): No chance. I give it a year-18 months tops
Wow, as long as that. I'll give it 9 months. Three months of that running with the seats nearly empty.
That route will be as useful to SE England as a milk chocolate teacup in Dubai. No one from SE London is going to go all the way to Manston when they can get Amsterdam flights from real London airports.
Call me a pessimist if you like.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
peterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 229 posts, RR: 0 Reply 47, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1126 times:
Airport charges have to be far lower at Manston, plus the flight is very short (especially considering there is no traffic / holiding as at Heathrow) so they can perhaps load half as much fuel on the aircraft as they would need to put it into LHR. For passengers also there are advantages - less traffic, no crowds, easy parking and apart from it's own catchment area it is another option for people that live in SE London. And this connects Eastern Kent not just to Amsterdam, but to the world (and flying from LHR you'd probably have to connect somewhere anyway unless money's no object). I think this could be quite sucessful, but who knows, only time will tell.
LX138 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 349 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1131 times:
People seem positive, but honestly? This will not last.
Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 47): so they can perhaps load half as much fuel on the aircraft as they would need to put it into LHR. For passengers also there are advantages - less traffic, no crowds, easy parking and apart from it's own catchment area it is another option for people that live in SE London. And this connects Eastern Kent not just to
I don't think less fuel will help. The average customer doesn't really care about traffic and smaller crowds either. And the local catchment area is apparently one of the UK's 'most deprived areas' according to another poster. Looking good!
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 32): No wonder the local chamber of commerce and council have gotten excited - that is a big boost for the area's economic prospects.
I'm not sure what a 2x service from AMS will exactly do, the odd new check-in job, the odd new passenger buying an iced bun from the local petrol station - big boost might be a bit overkill?
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11136 posts, RR: 63 Reply 49, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1117 times:
Quoting LX138 (Reply 48): I'm not sure what a 2x service from AMS will exactly do, the odd new check-in job, the odd new passenger buying an iced bun from the local petrol station - big boost might be a bit overkill?
It's a much wider picture than that. For an area/location to attract business and investment it needs to be well connected by road, rail and air - the latter is especially important for more peripheral locations like East Kent.
The unfortunate situation in Plymouth (where the airport has been mothballed) is a good example of why airlinks are important. A number of large businesses, employing from several hundred to several thousand people, stated that it was the airport/airlinks (especially the former CDG/LHR links) which attracted them to locate and invest in the city, because it mitigated the peripheral location. Indeed a recent survey reported that some three quarters of the city's key businesses need good airlinks and desire major hub connectivity to operate.
The KLM service into Manston will tick a lot of boxes in terms of accessibility and investability in the local area. Going from no service to double daily into a major European hub is really hitting the jackpot. It will need to be seen that they are sustainable, but I don't see that being too difficult.
Quoting babybus (Reply 46): Wow, as long as that. I'll give it 9 months. Three months of that running with the seats nearly empty.
Highly pessimistic in my opinion.
Manston claim to have a catchment area of 1.5 million people within a one hour drive. At an educated guess, half of those will have Manston as their nearest airport. Propensity to fly for leisure based on average household income means it can be expected that people in this area will take an average of two trips per year - 1.4 to European destinations and 0.6 to international non European destinations. So, out of a potential for 1.5 million trips, KLM need to capture less than 8% of a market where there is no direct competitor to fill every seat each year. And that's not even taking into account anyone travelling on business.
Richcandy From France, joined Aug 2001, 696 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1099 times:
Quoting LX138 (Reply 48): I don't think less fuel will help. The average customer doesn't really care about traffic and smaller crowds either. And the local catchment area is apparently one of the UK's 'most deprived areas' according to another poster.
Its a fairly mixed area, as far as wealth goes. There are lots of towns with employment issues. However there are also reasonably wealthy areas, Whitstable, parts of Canterbury etc.
I have been from Gatwick to Whitstable and back twice a week for the past 5 weeks and I hate it.
factsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 322 posts, RR: 0 Reply 52, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1145 times:
Quoting babybus (Reply 46): Wow, as long as that. I'll give it 9 months. Three months of that running with the seats nearly empty.
The pessimists on this forum may possibly overlook that KLM is an expert at providing smaller markets with worldwide connections at a relatively high frequency.
Very similar to Manston, the Dutch airline is the only scheduled jet operator at MME - Durham TeesValley with 3 departures/day. This small airport is just down the road from Newcastle (5 KLM departures/day in summer). Though MME is currently in serious difficulty, KLM has carried over 100.000 pax to/from this airport every year for the last decade and continues to operate there when most airlines have pulled out!
Another example is KLM's announcement it will open its 7th destination AES - Alesund in Norway also with 2x departures/day in April 2013. This airport serves a community of just 40.000 inhabitants in a wider region with 85.000 people.
These route announcements are in line with KLM's succesful strategy to serve regional airports in the UK, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden and France with airports such as Aberdeen (6x/day), Bristol (4x/day), Cardiff (3x/day), Trondheim (3x/day), Kristiansand (3x/day), Torp (3x/day in summer), Linkoping (2x/day), Luxembourg (4x/day), Nuerenberg (4x/day) and in association with AF Strasbourg (3x/day), Nantes (4x/day).
Interestingly KLM is now also copying this regional strategy in the long-haul market, thus avoiding direct competition from Emirates and others, by opening direct services from Europe to Chengdu, Hangzhou, Xiamen, Fukuoka, Bali, Taipei, Portland (with DL).
So perhaps KLM should be given the benefit of the doubt!
Quoting babybus (Reply 46): That route will be as useful to SE England as a milk chocolate teacup in Dubai. No one from SE London is going to go all the way to Manston when they can get Amsterdam flights from real London airports.
This may be a useful article to clarify what markets are served by a Manston-AMS route.
Giancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1262 posts, RR: 0 Reply 54, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1109 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 49): Manston claim to have a catchment area of 1.5 million people within a one hour drive.
Where were all those people anytime anyone has operated pax services from Manston in the past? They didnt seem to want to turn up.. This will be no different.
Its a part time airport with lack of staff, I dont even think Fire/Radar coverage covers many hours each day? It is up for sale with no interested parties for a reason.
The only way I can see KLM filling a flight is if they use one of their flight school props.
My mother lives in Whitstable and I am near Lewes. Getting to her can take over 2 hours- either the M23/M35 route which can be hell if there is heavy traffic or the long and winding roads through Tunbridge Wells which get snarled up with slow moving tractors and the like.
When EUJet were in operation, my mother used them quite a few times - it was convenient but she always said that the flights were very empty in all directions.
There are some very wealthy areas in Kent- Whitstable, Canterbury, Cranbrook (my sister lives there), Goudhurst etc but people will go from airports such as Gatwick or Heathrow because they know that the planes run like buses- with so many frequencies, it fits in better with their work schedule. A link which just has one or two flights a day might not be so handy.
There would have to be a better benefit to going from Manston- perhaps free car parking? The saving would entice people over the other airports.
Quoting factsonly (Reply 53): This may be a useful article to clarify what markets are served by a Manston-AMS route
Interesting to see that Flybe didn't survive at the airport for long. They couldn't even make an Edinburgh flight work?
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 45):
Quoting raffik (Reply 43):
I could see Ryanair offering flights out of "London Manston Airport".
I cant, They have had all these years to do it and haven't for a reason
I was being tongue in cheek. But Ryanair kept out of Southend when there wasn't any competition and Easyjet appear to be doing very well out of there..
One thought I have is that KLM say they want to capture connecting traffic via AMS- wouldn't it actually be quicker to spend another hour on your journey to Gatwick or Heathrow where you probably would be able to connect to a NONSTOP flight very easily? Both Gatwick and Heathrow are already very well connected and unless the flight was considerably cheaper, why would somebody go through the hassle of connecting to another flight in AMS?
Most cities are connected with multiple flights per day from Gatwick and Heathrow..
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11136 posts, RR: 63 Reply 56, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1104 times:
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 54): Where were all those people anytime anyone has operated pax services from Manston in the past? They didnt seem to want to turn up..
There's no comparison here to carriers like EU Jet, for quite obvious reasons.
Quoting raffik (Reply 55): One thought I have is that KLM say they want to capture connecting traffic via AMS- wouldn't it actually be quicker to spend another hour on your journey to Gatwick or Heathrow where you probably would be able to connect to a NONSTOP flight very easily? Both Gatwick and Heathrow are already very well connected and unless the flight was considerably cheaper, why would somebody go through the hassle of connecting to another flight in AMS?
On that basis then, why do KLM, Air France, Swiss, Lufthansa etc... all carry so much connecting traffic out of LHR itself. It's not so much that one-stop options are cheaper, it's that direct options carry an often hefty premium. Also you would be surprised how many people would rather avoid the big airports - being able to park for less just opposite the terminal at airports like Manston is a good marketing factor.
Quoting raffik (Reply 55): But Ryanair kept out of Southend when there wasn't any competition and Easyjet appear to be doing very well out of there..
The 737-800 is performance limited on most routes in and out, the A319 not so by a long way.
vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3593 posts, RR: 5 Reply 57, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1103 times:
At MME, HUY and NWI, KLM has 100.000-125.000 pax annually, are operating the most important route at each airport and are the only carrier providing a hub link. So if there is one carrier knowing what they are doing by serving MSE it is probably KLM.
SuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 219 posts, RR: 0 Reply 59, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1093 times:
I wouldn't be surprised if KLM doesn't pay too much or even gets money for flying there, that should also be taken into account. Moreover, with those frequencies they're clearly aiming for long-haul connectors. It might not be too much of a problem if the planes are only half full with cheap prices, as long as a significant share of those passengers hops onto services to Tokyo, Atlanta or Lima.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11136 posts, RR: 63 Reply 60, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1093 times:
Quoting mainMAN (Reply 58): Apologies for being very pedantic, but this isn't quite right. I'd imagine East Kent and Greater Liverpool are quite similar in these respects.
Speaking about direct catchment areas no, not at all. LPL's is well connected by direct short haul LCC flights and is heavily cannibalised by MAN which is around 45 minutes from Liverpool city centre, especially when it comes to premium traffic. MSE meanwhile has no existing services to compete against and is a significant drive from alternate options, again lessening competition. Average household income and propoensity to fly is also higher in MSE's catchment area and, although the far end of East Kent is by no means glowing, they are rising more rapidly than in LPL's.
Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 59): I wouldn't be surprised if KLM doesn't pay too much or even gets money for flying there,
LX138 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 349 posts, RR: 0 Reply 61, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1094 times:
Quoting factsonly (Reply 52): Interestingly KLM is now also copying this regional strategy in the long-haul market, thus avoiding direct competition from Emirates and others, by opening direct services from Europe to Chengdu, Hangzhou, Xiamen, Fukuoka, Bali, Taipei, Portland (with DL).
I don't doubt that if anyone is to make it work, it's KLM, but how many people from Herne Bay want to go to Hangzhou? How many people from Folkestone go to Fukuoka? It's a bit of a generalisation, but the airport is located to east to be able to tap into the more lucurative catchments areas of mid and west Kent - and further west you are competing with LGW. It's those better catchment areas that lure passengers onto flights to DXB, HKG, BKK etc - and that's most certainly KL's aim here.
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 54): The only way I can see KLM filling a flight is if they use one of their flight school props.
Funny. The problem with Manston is that it's badly located - a quick look at Google Maps walkaround will show you the place is completely dead of activity.
joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3128 posts, RR: 4 Reply 62, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1086 times:
Quoting raffik (Reply 55): Most cities are connected with multiple flights per day from Gatwick and Heathrow..
Gatwick has a great short-haul network, but it's longhaul network is rather limited. The American network carriers are almost gone (only US to CLT left, and I expect it to be gone within days after US gets another LHR slot). There's one single EK-flight and the recent KE addition. And also for KE, I expect it to be a placeholder until they get extra LHR slots.
Heathrow indeed has the most important destinations non-stop, but that's still quite a drive, isn't it? Especially with the traffic on the M25.
KLMs early flight is perfect for the early morning connection bank (GRU 10:05, CPT 10:05, LAX 9:50, YYZ 9:35, middle east connections, etc), the afternoon flight is great for Japan (NRT 14:55), ACC (15:15). For SE Asia and China, (departures after 18:00), waiting time is a bit longer (4+ hours).
I can imagine that if you want to get from say Canterbury to Los Angeles, the MSE-AMS-LAX can easily be more convenient than driving to LHR and fly to LAX.
factsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 322 posts, RR: 0 Reply 63, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1084 times:
Quoting LX138 (Reply 61): Funny. The problem with Manston is that it's badly located - a quick look at Google Maps walkaround will show you the place is completely dead of activity.
The location of Manston Airport is a fact. People's behaviour is less rational, often driven by price and convenience.
Ryanair has shown that people will drive long distances to odd places to fly abroad; Paris Beauvais, Weeze, Hahn, Prestwick, Bournemouth, Karlsruhe and Lubeck come to mind.
Due to capacity constraints and high demand, many London air fares come at a premium, especially when APD is added on long-haul flights. These non-stop flights are more expensive than connecting services. Thus the short hop to AMS offers a price advantage over many air fares ex.UK. Price sensitive individuals and corporations will take advantage of this situation, as they do in other UK regions.
So, people will drive - even to Manston - if it saves them hassle, time and/or money.
JU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 64, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1087 times:
KLM is a well established carrier in the United Kingdom and carries hundreds of thousands of passengers every year. So even if not many people will be aware of this route I am sure those who are from Kent flying out of LGW or LHR on KLM will be aware of this route via their magazine. That is a clear advantage KL has over other carriers which have operated out of there in the past.
avion660 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 196 posts, RR: 0 Reply 65, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1078 times:
Quoting factsonly (Reply 63): Due to capacity constraints and high demand, many London air fares come at a premium, especially when APD is added on long-haul flights. These non-stop flights are more expensive than connecting services. Thus the short hop to AMS offers a price advantage over many air fares ex.UK. Price sensitive individuals and corporations will take advantage of this situation, as they do in other UK regions.
If you are thinking that by connecting after a short international flight you will save on APD then unfortunately you need to be aware that the APD rules take account of this. Connecting flights have a specific definition, based on the time spent in the connecting hub. As an example MSE-AMS-LIM would count as a flight to Lima if less than 24 hours passes in AMS. Extensive examples and complicated explanations at www.hmrc.gov.uk
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4149 posts, RR: 1 Reply 66, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1089 times:
Quoting babybus (Reply 46): Wow, as long as that. I'll give it 9 months. Three months of that running with the seats nearly empty.
If bookings for S12 are low, you won't see KL at MSE. If the route is not succesful, it won't make it till the end of S13. If KL booking for S13 are low, you won't see MSE return during W13. However, KL won't be flying empty planes (it's very good at postponing, postponing and later
Quoting raffik (Reply 55): Both Gatwick and Heathrow are already very well connected and unless the flight was considerably cheaper, why would somebody go through the hassle of connecting to another flight in AMS?
The same reason why BA thinks there is market for a three daily RTM-LHR whilst you can reach most destinations nonstop from AMS or BRU.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21495 posts, RR: 24 Reply 67, posted (6 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 1034 times:
Quoting raffik (Reply 55): One thought I have is that KLM say they want to capture connecting traffic via AMS- wouldn't it actually be quicker to spend another hour on your journey to Gatwick or Heathrow where you probably would be able to connect to a NONSTOP flight very easily? Both Gatwick and Heathrow are already very well connected and unless the flight was considerably cheaper, why would somebody go through the hassle of connecting to another flight in AMS?
Most cities are connected with multiple flights per day from Gatwick and Heathrow..
Price is an important factor. Most people, even many business travellers, are price-sensitive these days, and connecting routings are usually cheaper than nonstops, often much cheaper. And if you have to connect anywhere, AMS is in my experience the most convenient connecting hub in Europe. Very few hassles and short connecting times.
seansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 719 posts, RR: 0 Reply 68, posted (6 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 1039 times:
Surely this would be a great route for a F50? Why not bring Ci
Quoting joost (Reply 62): Gatwick has a great short-haul network, but it's longhaul network is rather limited. The American network carriers are almost gone (only US to CLT left, and I expect it to be gone within days after US gets another LHR slot). There's one single EK-flight and the recent KE addition. And also for KE, I expect it to be a placeholder until they get extra LHR slots.
There are three daily EK flights to DXB. LGW also recently got Air China (a few times a week) and Vietnam Airlines.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11136 posts, RR: 63 Reply 69, posted (6 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 1036 times:
Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 68): Surely this would be a great route for a F50? Why not bring Ci
I don't have the references I'd need to be sure on this machine, but IIRC the operating costs per seat are not that dissimilar as the F70 is pretty easy on fuel. I doubt they'll be paying more than a token landing fee for the first year at MSE so weight is largely irrelevant and the jet is quicker.
In fact the landing fee/charges are another difference between MSE and LPL. Because the KL service to LPL was a duplication of an existing route, it is unlikely that the airport management would have been able to offer the normal financial incentives, like reduced landing fees, charges etc... because it would have unfairly disadvantaged easyJet. But with no such situation at MSE, I'd expect them to have thrown KLM a very sweet phased deal.
I am not talking about this particular route, I am talking about their regional network. Also I do not see why you feel such need to constantly predict the worst. KLM is a well established and successful airline, I am sure they did they homework before spending money on launching this route.
Giancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1262 posts, RR: 0 Reply 73, posted (6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1009 times:
When an airline makes absurd decisions it leaves itself open to mockery.
With the theory you have just used would you like to explain KLM and Liverpool? Thank you.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11136 posts, RR: 63 Reply 75, posted (6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 992 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 70): Looking at KLM's route network how come they do not operate any Dash-8s? I think it would be perfect for them, or am I mistaken?
For the very shortest routes there would be slight advantage right now, but the upcoming generation of engines are going to see economics of small jets like the ERJ, MRJ etc... surpass the Q400.
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 73): When an airline makes absurd decisions it leaves itself open to mockery.
The only thing absurd and open to mockery here is the notion that you know better than the airline. I presume you must have access to all the surveys, studies, ff data, contracts and all the other information this decision will have been based on. No? I didn't think so.
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 73): With the theory you have just used would you like to explain KLM and Liverpool?
As JU068 mentions, there has been more than enough analysis posted in this thread already. So route launches don't always work out - fine, that's business and it happens worldwide. But in this case the odds appear to be stacked in KLM's favor for a number of reasons.
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