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KLM To Fly Manston-Amsterdam From April 2  
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1456 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2595 times:

KLM has just announced it will fly x 2 daily between Manston airport in Kent and Amsterdam effective April 2 next year. Bookings will open on November 14.

Flights will be operated by 80-seater F70s.

I believe it's the first time that Manston has been linked to Amsterdam. This little-known airport is convenient for travellers based in SE England and Kent. It's not too far from from the suburbs of SE London by road.

As one might expect, KL's schedules are designed to feed its Amsterdam hub.

KL1516 Manston-Amsterdam 0635-0835
KL1519 Amsterdam-Manston 1010-1005
KL1520 Manston-Amsterdam 1040-1235
KL1523 Amsterdam-Manston 2050-2045

75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedamian From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2610 times:

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
I believe it's the first time that Manston has been linked to Amsterdam.

Didn't the short-lived EU Jet briefly operate F100s between MSE and AMS back in 2004/05?


User currently offlineVasu From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 3856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2604 times:

Quoting damian (Reply 1):
Didn't the short-lived EU Jet briefly operate F100s between MSE and AMS back in 2004/05?

They did indeed - flew on their inaugural flight in September 2004.

Glad to see some "useful" service back at Manston... no doubt I'll be using it at some point!


User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2605 times:

Interesting and nice!


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2605 times:

That's going to last long, No really it will.

User currently offlineavion660 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2607 times:

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
This little-known airport is convenient for travellers based in SE England and Kent. It's not too far from from the suburbs of SE London by road.

Er, are you sure? It's got to be at least 65 miles and getting on for an hour and 20 - 30 minutes to get from the London suburbs. Manston is not that handy for west Kent either (west of Maidstone) .. Gatwick has that sown up. East Kent (surely the only market) probably has a population of 500,000. This new route would have been a better idea in the days when a major international company like Pfizer was based in Sandwich (less than 10 miles from Manston); not sure now though.

Quoting damian (Reply 1):
Didn't the short-lived EU Jet briefly operate F100s between MSE and AMS back in 2004/05?

They lasted what, a year at Manston (sorry, Kent International)?


User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2607 times:

Don't know about this one.

Small aircraft operating just twice a day and the nearest alternative (LGW) being 70-90 mins away. Might just work.

Thinking along the lines of connecting traffic, rather than just AMS.

[Edited 2012-11-13 11:29:58]

User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2605 times:

Quoting avion660 (Reply 5):
They lasted what, a year at Manston (sorry, Kent International)?

KLM has deeper pockets than EU Jet.

Quoting avion660 (Reply 5):
Er, are you sure? It's got to be at least 65 miles and getting on for an hour and 20 - 30 minutes to get from the London suburbs. Manston is not that handy for west Kent either (west of Maidstone) .. Gatwick has that sown up.

Fair point. I was thinking more in terms of the outer SE suburbs rather than areas closer to Central London. I agree that LGW is closer but this is a KLM service and is therefore aimed at passengers connecting onto KLM's global network. If you take a BA flight from LGW you lose the advantage of a special KLM fare beyond AMS while with U2 you cannot interline.

Yes, KLM does fly from LCY but traffic conditions (to access LCY) can be tricky at peak times from the outer SE suburbs because of the Blackwall Tunnel, A2, M25, Dartford Crossing, A13 and so on.

On the other hand, driving to Manston for KLM's morning flights in the morning means going against the traffic flow so the journey is more predictable. Another advantage, I am sure, will be cheap car parking at Manston.


User currently offlineshilenb From UK - England, joined Oct 2012, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

Fabulous, being a student in the nearby University of Kent this is good news for me, lets just hope the route price is reasonable

User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2603 times:

Quoting shilenb (Reply 8):
lets just hope the route price is reasonable

Probably from around £100 or so return if you stay a Saturday night or a few days.

I've double-checked but it's not yet available for booking.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

Excellent news for the region, this has been hotly anticipated. The date of the announcement was basically stated a while ago.

Here are some articles which give some background to the decision:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-19758802

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ManstonKLM

http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/huge_...ton_s_klm_flights_survey_1_1659557

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 4):
That's going to last long, No really it will.

It certainly will. The East Kent area is one of the most isolated areas of the country in terms of access to commercial air services, especially considering the relative wealth of it's catchment area. Prior to this their nearest airport was LCY, some 75 miles away. The direct catchment area runs from Medway, down to Maidstone and on to Hastings on the South coast. That's pretty big and is an area with a high propensity to fly.

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 6):
Thinking along the lines of connecting traffic, rather than just AMS.

That will be key. A big undeserved market and only a few hundred seats to fill each day. If it's not thrice daily within a year I'd be surprised.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?

User currently offlineaffirmative From France, joined Jul 2009, 350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2608 times:

Funny.. Just flew the NDB approach at Manston today. And doing it again tomorrow..   They have a big old runway and it's sad it's not used for more than a few cargo flights a week and training flights..


I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
User currently offlinegkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24906 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?

No chance. I give it a year-18 months tops



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?

Isn't it a very different market?

With Liverpool there EZY already flight the route and picking up the point to point. Then you have KLM flying from Manchester which is reasonably close. Closer than cities like Canterbury are from Gatwick.


User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2605 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?

Yes, but LPL is close to MAN from where there is a greater choice of flights to AMS.

As has been noted above, the East Kent area is 75 miles from LCY which is the closest airport with KLM (Cityjet) links. Here in the Southeast, it's not so much the distance it's the fact that driving conditions to LCY are so unpredictable thanks to the Blackwall Tunnel/Dartford River Crossing.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 14):
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
AMS-LPL didn't last, wonder if this will?

Isn't it a very different market?

Totally different market and totally different income levels and travel habits.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 15):
As has been noted above, the East Kent area is 75 miles from LCY which is the closest airport with KLM (Cityjet) links.

The closest of any airport with scheduled air links.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2603 times:

Another example of increasing competition between the big European carriers:

BA announce RTM-LHR to attract Dutch customers into the long haul network at LHR (and RTM is only 60km from AMS).
KL announce MSE-AMS to attract UK customers into the long haul network at AMS.
BA announce LBA-LHR to attract flyers away from LBA-AMS and into BA's long haul network instead of KL's. etc. etc.

We are probably going to see a lot more of this as it becomes a three way knife fight ... BA/IB v KL/AF v LH/its team.



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,B463,(..50 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlinemarky From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2605 times:

Quoting avion660 (Reply 5):
Er, are you sure? It's got to be at least 65 miles and getting on for an hour and 20 - 30 minutes to get from the London suburbs.

Depends how far into London you are talking about - I would consider I live in the London suburbs (inside the M25 in a London borough) and I can drive to Manston in an hour. Apart from the last 2 or 3 miles it is relatively quiet dual carriageway road all the way. LGW or STN take 45 minutes and LHR an hour plus. The convenience of parking etc at Manston easily makes the overall journey door to door shorter.

Don't get me wrong, I don't imagine too many people from SE London would consider Manston over the London airports even if KLM do some serious marketing but if I have need to go to AMS I'd certainly give it a go.


User currently offlineEuroWings From UK - England, joined Sep 2011, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2604 times:

Interesting and if marketed effectively, I could see MSE - AMS working as a long-standing route. KL is of course a very well established operator out of the UK "regions" and I agree with the above poster that BA's announcement of new RTM/LBA-LHR routes are likely to have influenced this decision. BA has automatically become stronger since BD mainline's demise and competitors are taking notice.

LPL - AMS and MSE - AMS are two very different routes. The former was up against a strong EZY point-to-point offering and MAN's services barely 35 miles away.


User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2603 times:

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 6):
Small aircraft operating just twice a day and the nearest alternative (LGW) being 70-90 mins away

But KLM dont fly from LGW, so they are competing with U2 & BA for O&D & Europe and EK & QR for longhaul or LHR, which can be a right fix to get to from Kent if the M25 is busy.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 7):
KLM has deeper pockets than EU Jet.

And a network with all the "legacy" perks, not just O&D traffic.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 7):
Fair point. I was thinking more in terms of the outer SE suburbs rather than areas closer to Central London
Quoting marky (Reply 18):
Depends how far into London you are talking about - I would consider I live in the London suburbs (inside the M25 in a London borough) and I can drive to Manston in an hour. Apart from the last 2 or 3 miles it is relatively quiet dual carriageway road all the way

I used MSE once in the EUjet days - I admit I was probably driving faster than I should have been, but it took me an hour on a Sunday night from North London (A406 / A10 junction pretty much)!! The M2 is a pretty good road once past Bexley area and I think its convenience is somewhat dismissed.

Quoting marky (Reply 18):
Don't get me wrong, I don't imagine too many people from SE London would consider Manston over the London airports even if KLM do some serious marketing but if I have need to go to AMS I'd certainly give it a go.

Im not so sure, KLM offer a lot of good destinations in Africa, Asia, CIS, Europe and even US. It could be just as convenient as trying to get round to LHR and avoid all the related crowds for security etc.

KLM have success in serving airports like HUY & NWI which are in the boonies with supposedly little local market (yes, I know they have oil traffic).



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User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2604 times:

Interesting to say the least. Connect via AMS or fly non-stop from LHR or LGW. Hmmm


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlinetripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2599 times:

Interesting choice. Nice to see KLM expanding and adding destinations. Hope this one will work out for them.

User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2599 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 20):
But KLM dont fly from LGW, so they are competing with U2 & BA for O&D & Europe and EK & QR for longhaul or LHR, which can be a right fix to get to from Kent if the M25 is busy.

Was not thinking of KLM, I was just thinking of the closest airport (other than LCY).

Quoting FI642 (Reply 21):
Interesting to say the least. Connect via AMS or fly non-stop from LHR or LGW. Hmmm

If you live in Canterbury area.

LHR/LGW = Long drive to the airport, busy terminal but non stop flight.

MSE = short drive to the airport, near empty terminal but other than AMS you need to connect.

I guess a lot depends on the connection time.

When I worked in the industry (years ago) people who lived in Norfolk would pay more to fly KLM out of NWI rather than drive to LHR/LGW/LCY.

Alex


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5160 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2599 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 20):

But KLM dont fly from LGW, so they are competing with U2 & BA for O&D & Europe

BA have cut their LGW-AMS even more for next season. U2 is winning that war.

I woudl expect this is more of a feed for long haul than attracting O&D.


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1667 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2860 times:

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 17):

BA announce RTM-LHR to attract Dutch customers into the long haul network at LHR (and RTM is only 60km from AMS).

You can't really compare that to East Kent... First of all Rotterdam is the second largest city in the Netherlands with nearly 700,000 people and is a huge economic centre, including Europe's largest port. East Kent, is unfortunately a comparitively deprived area with very little high-yielding businesses in the vicinity. There was Pfizer in Sandwich but that is being dramatically scaled back.

Then again... KLM have a habit of making unlikely destinations work. They just started operating to Ålesund twice a day so we'll see!



Next Flights: LGW-SVG (738-DY), SVG-LHR (319-BA), LHR-HKG (388-BA), HKG-SYD (333-CX), SYD-HKG (333-CX), HKG-LHR (388-BA)
User currently offlineRatypus From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2827 times:

If they can keep check-in times at MSE short, this might just work from Kent and South London for connections onto KLM's long-haul network. As several people have pointed out, MSE is an easy and predictable drive out of South London (as opposed to LHR or City, both of which could be infinitely delayed by traffic...); if they can keep check-in times short (and given the flight timings out of MSE), then for much of KLM's long-haul network out of AMS they might be able to make up the 'extra' time with a quick connection.....this already works fairly well out of LCY; from South/East London, it is actually quicker if you travelling to, say, the Far East, to hop over to LCY with a 15-minute check-in and do a quick change in AMS, than to trek all the way over to LHR, check-in 1 or 2 hours ahead of time and fly long-haul directly.

The fact that AMS is a really easy airport to connect in will help too (single terminal, clearly signed, the operation clearly designed with connections in mind - unlike LHR (bar T5), US airports etc). I would consider using this route if flying long-haul eastbound (even though I live fairly near LCY, the Blackwall Tunnel traffic always makes for a nervous ride to the airport...)


User currently offlinestarrymarkb From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2011, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2984 times:

Now if only they'd do EXT too  

User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2988 times:

Given there's a codeshare between EXT and CDG with BE and AF, with onward connections facilitated, it doesn't seem, from my brief search, also to apply with KL via AMS. This is from my search on KLM's UK website. Anyone know why?

In any case, 1x daily isn't useful for connections, so clearly it is based upon local traffic with any connecting traffic a bonus.

[Edited 2012-11-14 02:51:57]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2943 times:

So what kind of markets are they aiming for here? Asia? Europe? Africa?

User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 28):
Anyone know why?

Apparently because setting up the arrangement is not financially viable for FlyBe on a one daily flight.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 28):
In any case, 1x daily isn't useful for connections, so clearly it is based upon local traffic with any connecting traffic a bonus.

Not useful at all, the fares are ridiculous and the connection times are have been around 8 hours for the last trip options I looked at. It used to be double daily, as I think Amsterdam was, and the AF code-share was applied when the second flight still operated.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2949 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 29):
So what kind of markets are they aiming for here? Asia? Europe? Africa?

I guess whatever they can get. However it must be easier to sell connections to long haul cities over AMS rather than short haul.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2950 times:

Just an interesting point to add, in terms of connectivity (directly to a hub airport, or to an airport with at least twice daily services to a major hub) Manston has gone straight into the top ten, having been almost in last place.

No wonder the local chamber of commerce and council have gotten excited - that is a big boost for the area's economic prospects.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2954 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 32):
No wonder the local chamber of commerce and council have gotten excited - that is a big boost for the area's economic prospects.

That is a good point to make. Having Manston on an aviation map means it becomes easier when the local chamber of commerce seeks overseas business and investment. A potential investor would baulk at the thought of having to travel to East Kent all the way from one of the London airports.


User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2896 times:

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 23):
LHR/LGW = Long drive to the airport, busy terminal but non stop flight.
MSE = short drive to the airport, near empty terminal but other than AMS you need to connect.
Quoting JU068 (Reply 29):
So what kind of markets are they aiming for here? Asia? Europe? Africa?

There is also the cost, availability, itinerary issue. Plenty of people I know end up "doubling back" on the themselves on itineraries for many different reasons and I know a lot who have flown EDI-AMS-USA even though they fly back over their house 8 hours after they walked out of the front door. I think you will find people using this link to Asia, USA and Europe if the prices are right and the AMS connection times reasonably short (certainly the flight times look to support connections to/from the US and Europe although they don't seem to support evening departures to Asia).



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,B463,(..50 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineshilenb From UK - England, joined Oct 2012, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2853 times:

Just had a look at the fares on KL's website and the prices seem reasonable. 99GBP return for the weekend in april

User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 4
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2817 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 30):
Apparently because setting up the arrangement is not financially viable for FlyBe on a one daily flight.

Can't be right. KLM codeshare on BE's once daily INV-AMS
http://www.flybe.com/franchise_codeshare/codeshares.htm



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineVasu From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 3856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

Quoting shilenb (Reply 35):
99GBP return for the weekend in april

Not the worst... but I do also wish Manston would get some low-cost flights!


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2802 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 36):
Can't be right. KLM codeshare on BE's once daily INV-AMS
http://www.flybe.com/franchise_codes...s.htm

Yes it can if you already have a codeshare in place on another route.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 4
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2806 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 38):
Yes it can if you already have a codeshare in place on another route.

Then why not EXT-AMS as well?

If frequency determines a codeshare, then it makes no sense why INV has one, and EXT (or EMA for that matter) does not. There must be some other reason



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2795 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 39):
If frequency determines a codeshare, then it makes no sense why INV has one, and EXT (or EMA for that matter) does not. There must be some other reason

In the case of EMA there is, the route has only just commenced. In the case of EXT the once daily codeshare service to CDG comfortably satisfies current (limited) demand from those prepared to pay the high premium (£100 upwards) to fly from Exeter not Bristol. Even after the reduction from double daily the passenger numbers have stagnated on EXT-CDG, with a slight reduction in fact so far this year. Adding a codeshare to the AMS flight, which operates at almost exactly the same time as the CDG service, would just double associated costs but would be unlikely to generate any meaningful extra revenue. So I can understand why it has apparently been decided against.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24798 posts, RR: 22
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 40):
Adding a codeshare to the AMS flight, which operates at almost exactly the same time as the CDG service, would just double associated costs but would be unlikely to generate any meaningful extra revenue.

Except AMS is a much more convenient and pleasant connecting hub than CDG. Given the choice of connecting at CDG or AMS I would pick AMS every time. It's by far my preferred connecting hub in Europe. Only MUC and ZRH approach AMS in convenience but AMS is still the winner in my experience.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2791 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
Except AMS is a much more convenient and pleasant connecting hub than CDG. Given the choice of connecting at CDG or AMS I would pick AMS every time. It's by far my preferred connecting hub in Europe. Only MUC and ZRH approach AMS in convenience but AMS is still the winner in my experience.

Personally I feel the same way too, but I can see that from a bean counters perspective it's a no brainer. Worth remembering here that the choice is essentially travelling another hour by road to BRS for an AMS flight, or departing EXT via CDG. Again, no contest if you are not price sensitive.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2779 times:

That's good news for Manston. I drove by it once and it seemed in the middle of nowhere. I guess there is a cachement area however and I hope it does well for the airline. The seats are competitive and Amsterdam is a popular destination for getaways etc.

It reminds me of Southend Airport, my home town, which for decades was more or less devoid of any scheduled air service, apart from a weekly flight to Jersey in the summer. Now when I look at the airport, it has completely transformed itself into a vibrant airport with variety and choice.

Perhaps with KLM offering services to Manston, other airlines will look at opening services from there.
I could see Ryanair offering flights out of "London Manston Airport".



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3535 posts, RR: 3
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2764 times:

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 25):
East Kent, is unfortunately a comparitively deprived area with very little high-yielding businesses in the vicinity. There was Pfizer in Sandwich but that is being dramatically scaled back.

The above concurs with my understanding of East Kent, I believe it has in the past been an area that qualifies for EU money on the basis of its deprivity, certainly the seaside towns have struggled for years with the holidaymakers often replaced by recent immigrants.
I wonder if KLM might be eligble for any financial sweeteners due to the areas relative poverty ?


User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2766 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 43):
I could see Ryanair offering flights out of "London Manston Airport".

I cant, They have had all these years to do it and haven't for a reason.

EUjet came along and nobody batted and eyelid because it wasnt competition it was a waste of time. I think the owners lost 7 million gbp in first half of the year between the airline and the airport itself lol.

There are also some very vocal nimbys near by Manston Airport...
Good luck to KLM but yeah, I am not as optomistic as some people on here.

I will go as far as to say I see the airport dissapearing rather then getting more flights.


User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2776 times:

Quoting gkirk (Reply 13):
No chance. I give it a year-18 months tops

Wow, as long as that. I'll give it 9 months. Three months of that running with the seats nearly empty.

That route will be as useful to SE England as a milk chocolate teacup in Dubai. No one from SE London is going to go all the way to Manston when they can get Amsterdam flights from real London airports.

Call me a pessimist if you like.


User currently offlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2789 times:

Airport charges have to be far lower at Manston, plus the flight is very short (especially considering there is no traffic / holiding as at Heathrow) so they can perhaps load half as much fuel on the aircraft as they would need to put it into LHR. For passengers also there are advantages - less traffic, no crowds, easy parking and apart from it's own catchment area it is another option for people that live in SE London. And this connects Eastern Kent not just to Amsterdam, but to the world (and flying from LHR you'd probably have to connect somewhere anyway unless money's no object). I think this could be quite sucessful, but who knows, only time will tell.

User currently offlineLX138 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

People seem positive, but honestly? This will not last.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 47):
so they can perhaps load half as much fuel on the aircraft as they would need to put it into LHR. For passengers also there are advantages - less traffic, no crowds, easy parking and apart from it's own catchment area it is another option for people that live in SE London. And this connects Eastern Kent not just to

I don't think less fuel will help. The average customer doesn't really care about traffic and smaller crowds either. And the local catchment area is apparently one of the UK's 'most deprived areas' according to another poster. Looking good!

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 32):
No wonder the local chamber of commerce and council have gotten excited - that is a big boost for the area's economic prospects.

I'm not sure what a 2x service from AMS will exactly do, the odd new check-in job, the odd new passenger buying an iced bun from the local petrol station - big boost might be a bit overkill?



StarWorld Team - The ultimate airline alliance
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2780 times:

Quoting LX138 (Reply 48):
I'm not sure what a 2x service from AMS will exactly do, the odd new check-in job, the odd new passenger buying an iced bun from the local petrol station - big boost might be a bit overkill?

It's a much wider picture than that. For an area/location to attract business and investment it needs to be well connected by road, rail and air - the latter is especially important for more peripheral locations like East Kent.

The unfortunate situation in Plymouth (where the airport has been mothballed) is a good example of why airlinks are important. A number of large businesses, employing from several hundred to several thousand people, stated that it was the airport/airlinks (especially the former CDG/LHR links) which attracted them to locate and invest in the city, because it mitigated the peripheral location. Indeed a recent survey reported that some three quarters of the city's key businesses need good airlinks and desire major hub connectivity to operate.

The KLM service into Manston will tick a lot of boxes in terms of accessibility and investability in the local area. Going from no service to double daily into a major European hub is really hitting the jackpot. It will need to be seen that they are sustainable, but I don't see that being too difficult.

Quoting babybus (Reply 46):
Wow, as long as that. I'll give it 9 months. Three months of that running with the seats nearly empty.

Highly pessimistic in my opinion.

Manston claim to have a catchment area of 1.5 million people within a one hour drive. At an educated guess, half of those will have Manston as their nearest airport. Propensity to fly for leisure based on average household income means it can be expected that people in this area will take an average of two trips per year - 1.4 to European destinations and 0.6 to international non European destinations. So, out of a potential for 1.5 million trips, KLM need to capture less than 8% of a market where there is no direct competitor to fill every seat each year. And that's not even taking into account anyone travelling on business.

Highly doable in my book.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2780 times:

KL does well out of NWI, but I think there is a lot of oil traffic on that route....


To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2762 times:

Quoting LX138 (Reply 48):
I don't think less fuel will help. The average customer doesn't really care about traffic and smaller crowds either. And the local catchment area is apparently one of the UK's 'most deprived areas' according to another poster.

Its a fairly mixed area, as far as wealth goes. There are lots of towns with employment issues. However there are also reasonably wealthy areas, Whitstable, parts of Canterbury etc.

I have been from Gatwick to Whitstable and back twice a week for the past 5 weeks and I hate it.

Alex


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 809 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 46):
Wow, as long as that. I'll give it 9 months. Three months of that running with the seats nearly empty.

The pessimists on this forum may possibly overlook that KLM is an expert at providing smaller markets with worldwide connections at a relatively high frequency.

Very similar to Manston, the Dutch airline is the only scheduled jet operator at MME - Durham TeesValley with 3 departures/day. This small airport is just down the road from Newcastle (5 KLM departures/day in summer). Though MME is currently in serious difficulty, KLM has carried over 100.000 pax to/from this airport every year for the last decade and continues to operate there when most airlines have pulled out!

Another example is KLM's announcement it will open its 7th destination AES - Alesund in Norway also with 2x departures/day in April 2013. This airport serves a community of just 40.000 inhabitants in a wider region with 85.000 people.

These route announcements are in line with KLM's succesful strategy to serve regional airports in the UK, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden and France with airports such as Aberdeen (6x/day), Bristol (4x/day), Cardiff (3x/day), Trondheim (3x/day), Kristiansand (3x/day), Torp (3x/day in summer), Linkoping (2x/day), Luxembourg (4x/day), Nuerenberg (4x/day) and in association with AF Strasbourg (3x/day), Nantes (4x/day).

Interestingly KLM is now also copying this regional strategy in the long-haul market, thus avoiding direct competition from Emirates and others, by opening direct services from Europe to Chengdu, Hangzhou, Xiamen, Fukuoka, Bali, Taipei, Portland (with DL).

So perhaps KLM should be given the benefit of the doubt!


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 809 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

Check out the Manston Airport website to see who promotes who:

http://www.manstonairport.com/

Quoting babybus (Reply 46):
That route will be as useful to SE England as a milk chocolate teacup in Dubai. No one from SE London is going to go all the way to Manston when they can get Amsterdam flights from real London airports.

This may be a useful article to clarify what markets are served by a Manston-AMS route.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/36/...s-manston-to-extensive-uk-network/


User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2774 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 49):
Manston claim to have a catchment area of 1.5 million people within a one hour drive.

Where were all those people anytime anyone has operated pax services from Manston in the past? They didnt seem to want to turn up.. This will be no different.

Its a part time airport with lack of staff, I dont even think Fire/Radar coverage covers many hours each day? It is up for sale with no interested parties for a reason.

The only way I can see KLM filling a flight is if they use one of their flight school props.


User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2771 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 45):
I cant, They have had all these years to do it and haven't for a reason
Quoting Richcandy (Reply 51):
Whitstable

My mother lives in Whitstable and I am near Lewes. Getting to her can take over 2 hours- either the M23/M35 route which can be hell if there is heavy traffic or the long and winding roads through Tunbridge Wells which get snarled up with slow moving tractors and the like.

When EUJet were in operation, my mother used them quite a few times - it was convenient but she always said that the flights were very empty in all directions.

There are some very wealthy areas in Kent- Whitstable, Canterbury, Cranbrook (my sister lives there), Goudhurst etc but people will go from airports such as Gatwick or Heathrow because they know that the planes run like buses- with so many frequencies, it fits in better with their work schedule. A link which just has one or two flights a day might not be so handy.
There would have to be a better benefit to going from Manston- perhaps free car parking? The saving would entice people over the other airports.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 53):
This may be a useful article to clarify what markets are served by a Manston-AMS route

Interesting to see that Flybe didn't survive at the airport for long. They couldn't even make an Edinburgh flight work?

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 45):

Quoting raffik (Reply 43):
I could see Ryanair offering flights out of "London Manston Airport".

I cant, They have had all these years to do it and haven't for a reason

I was being tongue in cheek. But Ryanair kept out of Southend when there wasn't any competition and Easyjet appear to be doing very well out of there..

One thought I have is that KLM say they want to capture connecting traffic via AMS- wouldn't it actually be quicker to spend another hour on your journey to Gatwick or Heathrow where you probably would be able to connect to a NONSTOP flight very easily? Both Gatwick and Heathrow are already very well connected and unless the flight was considerably cheaper, why would somebody go through the hassle of connecting to another flight in AMS?
Most cities are connected with multiple flights per day from Gatwick and Heathrow..



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2769 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 54):
Where were all those people anytime anyone has operated pax services from Manston in the past? They didnt seem to want to turn up..

There's no comparison here to carriers like EU Jet, for quite obvious reasons.

Quoting raffik (Reply 55):
One thought I have is that KLM say they want to capture connecting traffic via AMS- wouldn't it actually be quicker to spend another hour on your journey to Gatwick or Heathrow where you probably would be able to connect to a NONSTOP flight very easily? Both Gatwick and Heathrow are already very well connected and unless the flight was considerably cheaper, why would somebody go through the hassle of connecting to another flight in AMS?

On that basis then, why do KLM, Air France, Swiss, Lufthansa etc... all carry so much connecting traffic out of LHR itself. It's not so much that one-stop options are cheaper, it's that direct options carry an often hefty premium. Also you would be surprised how many people would rather avoid the big airports - being able to park for less just opposite the terminal at airports like Manston is a good marketing factor.

Quoting raffik (Reply 55):
But Ryanair kept out of Southend when there wasn't any competition and Easyjet appear to be doing very well out of there..

The 737-800 is performance limited on most routes in and out, the A319 not so by a long way.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3954 posts, RR: 5
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2768 times:

At MME, HUY and NWI, KLM has 100.000-125.000 pax annually, are operating the most important route at each airport and are the only carrier providing a hub link. So if there is one carrier knowing what they are doing by serving MSE it is probably KLM.

User currently offlinemainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2096 posts, RR: 5
Reply 58, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2760 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 16):
Totally different market and totally different income levels and travel habits.

Apologies for being very pedantic, but this isn't quite right. I'd imagine East Kent and Greater Liverpool are quite similar in these respects.

(edit - by Greater Liverpool I mean to the city region, and not the much smaller Merseyside.)

[Edited 2012-11-16 05:56:42]

User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2758 times:

I wouldn't be surprised if KLM doesn't pay too much or even gets money for flying there, that should also be taken into account. Moreover, with those frequencies they're clearly aiming for long-haul connectors. It might not be too much of a problem if the planes are only half full with cheap prices, as long as a significant share of those passengers hops onto services to Tokyo, Atlanta or Lima.

User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 60, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2758 times:

Quoting mainMAN (Reply 58):
Apologies for being very pedantic, but this isn't quite right. I'd imagine East Kent and Greater Liverpool are quite similar in these respects.

Speaking about direct catchment areas no, not at all. LPL's is well connected by direct short haul LCC flights and is heavily cannibalised by MAN which is around 45 minutes from Liverpool city centre, especially when it comes to premium traffic. MSE meanwhile has no existing services to compete against and is a significant drive from alternate options, again lessening competition. Average household income and propoensity to fly is also higher in MSE's catchment area and, although the far end of East Kent is by no means glowing, they are rising more rapidly than in LPL's.

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 59):
I wouldn't be surprised if KLM doesn't pay too much or even gets money for flying there,

Indeed, standard for most new routes like this.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineLX138 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2759 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 52):
Interestingly KLM is now also copying this regional strategy in the long-haul market, thus avoiding direct competition from Emirates and others, by opening direct services from Europe to Chengdu, Hangzhou, Xiamen, Fukuoka, Bali, Taipei, Portland (with DL).

I don't doubt that if anyone is to make it work, it's KLM, but how many people from Herne Bay want to go to Hangzhou? How many people from Folkestone go to Fukuoka? It's a bit of a generalisation, but the airport is located to east to be able to tap into the more lucurative catchments areas of mid and west Kent - and further west you are competing with LGW. It's those better catchment areas that lure passengers onto flights to DXB, HKG, BKK etc - and that's most certainly KL's aim here.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 54):
The only way I can see KLM filling a flight is if they use one of their flight school props.

Funny. The problem with Manston is that it's badly located - a quick look at Google Maps walkaround will show you the place is completely dead of activity.



StarWorld Team - The ultimate airline alliance
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3161 posts, RR: 4
Reply 62, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2751 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 55):
Most cities are connected with multiple flights per day from Gatwick and Heathrow..

Gatwick has a great short-haul network, but it's longhaul network is rather limited. The American network carriers are almost gone (only US to CLT left, and I expect it to be gone within days after US gets another LHR slot). There's one single EK-flight and the recent KE addition. And also for KE, I expect it to be a placeholder until they get extra LHR slots.

Heathrow indeed has the most important destinations non-stop, but that's still quite a drive, isn't it? Especially with the traffic on the M25.

KLMs early flight is perfect for the early morning connection bank (GRU 10:05, CPT 10:05, LAX 9:50, YYZ 9:35, middle east connections, etc), the afternoon flight is great for Japan (NRT 14:55), ACC (15:15). For SE Asia and China, (departures after 18:00), waiting time is a bit longer (4+ hours).

I can imagine that if you want to get from say Canterbury to Los Angeles, the MSE-AMS-LAX can easily be more convenient than driving to LHR and fly to LAX.


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 809 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 2749 times:

Quoting LX138 (Reply 61):
Funny. The problem with Manston is that it's badly located - a quick look at Google Maps walkaround will show you the place is completely dead of activity.

The location of Manston Airport is a fact. People's behaviour is less rational, often driven by price and convenience.

Ryanair has shown that people will drive long distances to odd places to fly abroad; Paris Beauvais, Weeze, Hahn, Prestwick, Bournemouth, Karlsruhe and Lubeck come to mind.

Due to capacity constraints and high demand, many London air fares come at a premium, especially when APD is added on long-haul flights. These non-stop flights are more expensive than connecting services. Thus the short hop to AMS offers a price advantage over many air fares ex.UK. Price sensitive individuals and corporations will take advantage of this situation, as they do in other UK regions.

So, people will drive - even to Manston - if it saves them hassle, time and/or money.


User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 64, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2752 times:

KLM is a well established carrier in the United Kingdom and carries hundreds of thousands of passengers every year. So even if not many people will be aware of this route I am sure those who are from Kent flying out of LGW or LHR on KLM will be aware of this route via their magazine. That is a clear advantage KL has over other carriers which have operated out of there in the past.

User currently offlineavion660 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 63):
Due to capacity constraints and high demand, many London air fares come at a premium, especially when APD is added on long-haul flights. These non-stop flights are more expensive than connecting services. Thus the short hop to AMS offers a price advantage over many air fares ex.UK. Price sensitive individuals and corporations will take advantage of this situation, as they do in other UK regions.

If you are thinking that by connecting after a short international flight you will save on APD then unfortunately you need to be aware that the APD rules take account of this. Connecting flights have a specific definition, based on the time spent in the connecting hub. As an example MSE-AMS-LIM would count as a flight to Lima if less than 24 hours passes in AMS. Extensive examples and complicated explanations at www.hmrc.gov.uk

[Edited 2012-11-16 13:11:57]

User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 46):
Wow, as long as that. I'll give it 9 months. Three months of that running with the seats nearly empty.

If bookings for S12 are low, you won't see KL at MSE. If the route is not succesful, it won't make it till the end of S13. If KL booking for S13 are low, you won't see MSE return during W13. However, KL won't be flying empty planes (it's very good at postponing, postponing and later

Quoting raffik (Reply 55):
Both Gatwick and Heathrow are already very well connected and unless the flight was considerably cheaper, why would somebody go through the hassle of connecting to another flight in AMS?

The same reason why BA thinks there is market for a three daily RTM-LHR whilst you can reach most destinations nonstop from AMS or BRU.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24798 posts, RR: 22
Reply 67, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 55):
One thought I have is that KLM say they want to capture connecting traffic via AMS- wouldn't it actually be quicker to spend another hour on your journey to Gatwick or Heathrow where you probably would be able to connect to a NONSTOP flight very easily? Both Gatwick and Heathrow are already very well connected and unless the flight was considerably cheaper, why would somebody go through the hassle of connecting to another flight in AMS?
Most cities are connected with multiple flights per day from Gatwick and Heathrow..

Price is an important factor. Most people, even many business travellers, are price-sensitive these days, and connecting routings are usually cheaper than nonstops, often much cheaper. And if you have to connect anywhere, AMS is in my experience the most convenient connecting hub in Europe. Very few hassles and short connecting times.


User currently offlineseansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2704 times:

Surely this would be a great route for a F50? Why not bring Ci

Quoting joost (Reply 62):
Gatwick has a great short-haul network, but it's longhaul network is rather limited. The American network carriers are almost gone (only US to CLT left, and I expect it to be gone within days after US gets another LHR slot). There's one single EK-flight and the recent KE addition. And also for KE, I expect it to be a placeholder until they get extra LHR slots.

There are three daily EK flights to DXB. LGW also recently got Air China (a few times a week) and Vietnam Airlines.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 69, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 68):
Surely this would be a great route for a F50? Why not bring Ci

I don't have the references I'd need to be sure on this machine, but IIRC the operating costs per seat are not that dissimilar as the F70 is pretty easy on fuel. I doubt they'll be paying more than a token landing fee for the first year at MSE so weight is largely irrelevant and the jet is quicker.

In fact the landing fee/charges are another difference between MSE and LPL. Because the KL service to LPL was a duplication of an existing route, it is unlikely that the airport management would have been able to offer the normal financial incentives, like reduced landing fees, charges etc... because it would have unfairly disadvantaged easyJet. But with no such situation at MSE, I'd expect them to have thrown KLM a very sweet phased deal.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 70, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2688 times:

Looking at KLM's route network how come they do not operate any Dash-8s? I think it would be perfect for them, or am I mistaken?

User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2675 times:

Forget the Dash 8, They should buy some Cessna 172's for this route.

User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 72, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2677 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 71):

I am not talking about this particular route, I am talking about their regional network. Also I do not see why you feel such need to constantly predict the worst. KLM is a well established and successful airline, I am sure they did they homework before spending money on launching this route.


User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2674 times:

When an airline makes absurd decisions it leaves itself open to mockery.
With the theory you have just used would you like to explain KLM and Liverpool? Thank you.


User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 74, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2671 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 73):

No, I will not because there is an explanation about their Liverpool flights above.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11611 posts, RR: 60
Reply 75, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2658 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 70):
Looking at KLM's route network how come they do not operate any Dash-8s? I think it would be perfect for them, or am I mistaken?

For the very shortest routes there would be slight advantage right now, but the upcoming generation of engines are going to see economics of small jets like the ERJ, MRJ etc... surpass the Q400.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 73):
When an airline makes absurd decisions it leaves itself open to mockery.

The only thing absurd and open to mockery here is the notion that you know better than the airline. I presume you must have access to all the surveys, studies, ff data, contracts and all the other information this decision will have been based on. No? I didn't think so.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 73):
With the theory you have just used would you like to explain KLM and Liverpool?

As JU068 mentions, there has been more than enough analysis posted in this thread already. So route launches don't always work out - fine, that's business and it happens worldwide. But in this case the odds appear to be stacked in KLM's favor for a number of reasons.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
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