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Triple Loss Of Separation On Approach To BCN  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1906 times:

This sort of "airliner's threesome" is not very common, and frankly it looks like some procedures should be changed for that Approach....
It seems like the ATC controller and the AR crew are blaming each other for this incident...


http://www.avherald.com/h?article=458f61d3&opt=0

Rgds.

G.


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8872 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1913 times:

Looks like AR were first in sequence, they were around a minute in front of the U2 crew. No sure why they were held high for so long, the U2 and IB crew were 2-3000 ft lower when being vectored for the initial.

No mention what aircraft was preceding the AR flight that it needed to slow down for, the AR aircraft had too much energy and could not slow down and descend at the same time, meanwhile the U2 and IB crew are not receiving the requirement to slow down, bringing them closer to the AR aircraft.

We are only getting part of the picture.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1916 times:
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Map looks like a game of Flight Control  


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineqantas744er From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1286 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

Anyone actually surprised by this?

Controllers in Spain and particularly BCN are a joke.....


Here a previous incident involving a SN A319 and IB A320.


http://avherald.com/h?article=44c5f743&opt=0

And here some discussion between those who experience it first hand every day.


http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/500359-bcn-again.html



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6138 posts, RR: 30
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1918 times:
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ATC audio of the incident BELOW:

http://www.clarin.com/sociedad/Aerol...errizar-Barcelona_0_809919240.html



MGGS
User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1920 times:

Doesn't surprise me one little bit. You are statistically most likely to have a TCAS RA in Spain and this is part of the reason why.

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4429 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 4):
ATC audio of the incident BELOW:

http://www.clarin.com/sociedad/Aerol....html

I thought everyone was supposed to be speaking in English? Is that not a requirement, especially in a major international airport like BCN?


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8872 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 6):

No English is not required, at some fields the plates will say for example Spanish required. The official ICAO languages are English, Spanish , French, Arabic, Chinese and Russian.

The local language if it is ICAO is the primary, English secondary.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinehz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1656 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1920 times:
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Quoting qantas744er (Reply 3):
Controllers in Spain and particularly BCN are a joke.....

Don't Spanish controllers receive something like EUR500k / year?

I think the joke's on us.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 7):
No English is not required, at some fields the plates will say for example Spanish required. The official ICAO languages are English, Spanish , French, Arabic, Chinese and Russian.

The local language if it is ICAO is the primary, English secondary.

False. The languages you mentioned are the official languages of the UN (of which the ICAO is an agency). The only "official" language for aviation is English.

According to ICAO guidelines, controllers and pilots may use the local language, but at airports and on airways with international service, English must be used if requested.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8872 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
According to ICAO guidelines, controllers and pilots may use the local language, but at airports and on airways with international service, English must be used if requested.

I fly through China, Russia, and France on a regular basis, I can assure you that English is not the only official language used in ATC. In Canada as well you can have the ATIS given in English and French, for example 127.5 is the French language ATIS frequency at Montreal - Pierre Elliott Trudeau Int'l Airport- (CYUL).



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 10):
I fly through China, Russia, and France on a regular basis, I can assure you that English is not the only official language used in ATC.

A language simply being used on a radio frequency does not deem it "official." As stated above, English is the official language of aviation telephony. That does not require its use 100% of the time worldwide, as stated above.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8872 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 11):

A language simply being used on a radio frequency does not deem it "official."

It is official because it is in the relevant state AIP, in many countries, the AIP is also not in English.

If you think Spanish is not an official ICAO language, why would ICAO have a working group currently developing standard Spanish ATC phraseology ?

http://www.mexico.icao.int/Meetings/RASGPA/RASGPA5/RASGPA05WP08.pdf

How many times have you flown in countries where English is not the native language ?



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinePassedV1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1914 times:

Controllers have to be able to speak "English" in all ICAO countries, but the common practice is to speak the local language to all local aircraft and English to the foreigners. It's a dangerous situation but there are no bodies directly attributed to it yet so it is yet to be fixed.

User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8872 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 13):
Controllers have to be able to speak "English" in all ICAO countries

That is the aim, however it is still not the case. Many countries have filed exemptions to the ICAO SARPs, there are airports around the world where controllers do not speak English. There are also pilots around the world that cannot speak English either.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineHonza From Czech Republic, joined May 2005, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

"Triple Loss Of Separation"

..if I count correctly, this was double loss, not triple, right?  

Honza


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
According to ICAO guidelines, controllers and pilots may use the local language, but at airports and on airways with international service, English must be used if requested.

Can you give a source for this? Rhetorical question, because I'm pretty sure there is none.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 13):
Controllers have to be able to speak "English" in all ICAO countries, but the common practice is to speak the local language to all local aircraft and English to the foreigners. It's a dangerous situation but there are no bodies directly attributed to it yet so it is yet to be fixed.

Not quite.. if the local language is not an ICAO language, English is used instead. One example is Germany, where only VFR traffic may be handled in German, but IFR traffic may not. The way I understand the situation, non-ICAO languages could theoretically be used for ATC (if stipulated in the AIP), but I'm not aware of any example for that.

As to whether it's dangerous and needs to be fixed... well... I would find it much more dangerous to suddenly force all pilots and controllers all across, say, South America or China to suddenly speak English instead of their local language. Imagine you've been a regional pilot in China for 20 years. You're supposed to be fluent in English and you passed some test on it 20 years ago, but you've been speaking Chinese on the radio ever since. Forcing you to speak English all of a sudden, on airports where no foreign pilot usually flies into, is just asking for disaster.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 13):
It's a dangerous situation but there are no bodies directly attributed to it yet so it is yet to be fixed.

A First Officer of a Shorts 360 Cargo aircraft died years ago in France ( cockpit was sliced by the wingtip of a departing aircraft accelerating on the runway ). IIRC the fact of the ATC and the local pilots speaking each other in French was the main factor for the loss of situational awareness of the Shorts 360 crew, they didn't have a clue about the movements around them and the result was a tragedy for a family.

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
As to whether it's dangerous and needs to be fixed... well... I would find it much more dangerous to suddenly force all pilots and controllers all across, say, South America or China to suddenly speak English instead of their local language. Imagine you've been a regional pilot in China for 20 years. You're supposed to be fluent in English and you passed some test on it 20 years ago, but you've been speaking Chinese on the radio ever since. Forcing you to speak English all of a sudden, on airports where no foreign pilot usually flies into, is just asking for disaster

You are right and wrong. In the small local airports all around big countries ( i.e. Russia, China, Indonesia, Brazil, Germany, India ), with zero or very few international operations every day, obviously the use of English instead the local language will be stupid, and probably will have the effect of more incidents/accidents.
But we are talking about major airports like CDG,FRA, MAD, BCN, HKG, all places where you have a very big portion of the daily flights coming from a mix of countries with diverse languages. In this places, the use of English should be mandatory without exception, just because that allows a better situational awareness for all the crews in the area.
In this particular case, you have two crews ( IB and AR ) and one controller speaking each other in Spanish, with information about speeds and altitudes, issuing instructions and explanations, and one third crew ( EasyJet ) involved which probably never get the full picture of what the h**** was happening around them. Not good at all IMHO.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

I completely agree English should be the sole language. I am lucky to have an understanding of Spanish but I am much more relaxed when flying in Spain with a Spanish captain sat next to me, although it can lead to distractions when we have to discuss what's going on around us if I haven't understood.

User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 527 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1916 times:

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 8):
Don't Spanish controllers receive something like EUR500k / year?

Yes
and even more so the jokes on me!

http://waynefarley.com/aviation/2010.../air-traffic-controllers-salaries/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...0--replaced-automatic-systems.html


User currently offlinecyeg66 From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 200 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1912 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 17):
A First Officer of a Shorts 360 Cargo aircraft died years ago in France ( cockpit was sliced by the wingtip of a departing aircraft accelerating on the runway ). IIRC the fact of the ATC and the local pilots speaking each other in French was the main factor for the loss of situational awareness of the Shorts 360 crew, they didn't have a clue about the movements around them and the result was a tragedy for a family.


Ever hear of Tenerife? How did English "help" in that situation? More than a few families affected. Or USAir 1493? Fact of the matter is, as sad as it may be, mistakes will continue to happen, some more serious than others, regardless of the language spoken on the frequency. It is but one of the many levels upon which humans may err when tragedy unfortunately strikes.

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
As to whether it's dangerous and needs to be fixed... well... I would find it much more dangerous to suddenly force all pilots and controllers all across, say, South America or China to suddenly speak English instead of their local language. Imagine you've been a regional pilot in China for 20 years. You're supposed to be fluent in English and you passed some test on it 20 years ago, but you've been speaking Chinese on the radio ever since. Forcing you to speak English all of a sudden, on airports where no foreign pilot usually flies into, is just asking for disaster.


  



slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1912 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 12):
It is official because it is in the relevant state AIP, in many countries, the AIP is also not in English.

If you think Spanish is not an official ICAO language, why would ICAO have a working group currently developing standard Spanish ATC phraseology ?

I'm not trying to push American or British exceptionalism or anything of the sort, but English is the mandated international language of aviation. That's all I was meaning to say. I'm well aware that controllers around the globe do not speak English when working traffic. If countries have filed exemptions with the ICAO because not all their controllers are proficient in English, then what are they filing exemptions for if English is not internationally mandated?

Quoting zeke (Reply 12):
How many times have you flown in countries where English is not the native language ?

That's being disingenuous, don't you think? I'm not an airline pilot. Air traffic is my business.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
Can you give a source for this? Rhetorical question, because I'm pretty sure there is none.

Hows about we cut the attitude?

ICAO Annex 1:

"Language to be used:

The air-ground radiotelephony communications shall be conducted in the language normally used by the station on the ground or in the English language.

Note 1.— The language normally used by the station on the ground may not necessarily be the language of the State in which it is located. A common language may be agreed upon regionally as a requirement for stations on the ground in that region.
The English language shall be available, on request from any aircraft station, at all stations on the ground serving designated airports and routes used by international air services.
The languages available at a given station on the ground shall form part of the Aeronautical Information Publications and other published aeronautical information concerning such facilities."



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
The air-ground radiotelephony communications shall be conducted in the language normally used by the station on the ground or in the English language.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
The English language shall be available, on request from any aircraft station, at all stations on the ground serving designated airports and routes used by international air services.

So where exactly does it say that Spanish can't be used and English must be used at all times, even when IB or AR pilots speak to the BCN ATC?



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1913 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 23):
So where exactly does it say that Spanish can't be used and English must be used at all times, even when IB or AR pilots speak to the BCN ATC?

I think we got confused... I was never trying to claim that (although looking back, it may have been interpreted that way).

IB and AR pilots could speak French when flying into CDG if they wanted to.

They can even continue speaking Spanish with ATC even when another aircraft comes on frequency and speaks English... but ATC must respond to the English-speaking airplane in English, even if they switch back to Spanish to respond to the IB or AR plane. In fact, that's exactly what happens in many countries (Spain, Mexico, France, certain parts of Canada...)

But remember, that requirement only extends to airways and airports with scheduled international air service.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
25 rcair1 : That is probably a result of national legislation about "official languages" including french. Oh come on - Trolling? Because something was not a fac
26 UALWN : That's exactly what happened during this incident in BCN: ATC spoke English to the U2 crew and Spanish to the IB and AR crews.
27 Post contains links cedarjet : Barcelona is legendary for having awful ATC, crews even having to speak to each other directly to sort out a mess. And here is a YouTube classic, Barc
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