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DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1263 times:

The DOT established proceeding to reallocated of two former Spirit Airlines within perimeter (1,250 miles) Air-21 slot exemptions at DCA.

Under the Air-21 rules the departments selection criteria consist of;
• New entrant air carriers or limited incumbent air carriers (hold fewer than 40 slots at DCA)
• Service to communities without existing nonstop air transportation to DCA.
• Service to smaller communities.
• Provide competitive nonstop air service on a monopoly DCA route.
• Produce competitive consumer benefits including low fares.

Applications due December 5, 2012.

OST-2000-7182


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1398 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1270 times:

Finally. I made a thread on this a while back asking what happened.

I expect to see WN apply. Not sure about SY, F9 or B6.

[Edited 2012-11-14 06:07:53]


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1267 times:

We'll definitely see something from WN/FL...maybe the return of the DCA-OKC application?

As for other carriers who, at a quick glance, look like they have less than 40 slots (AC, AS, B6, F9, SY, VX) I think all except AS and VX will make bids.


User currently offlinecountrymalenc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1269 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The DOT established proceeding to reallocated of two former Spirit Airlines within perimeter (1,250 miles) Air-21 slot exemptions at DCA

Could you post the website where you found this information please ?


User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1275 times:

Quoting countrymalenc (Reply 3):
Could you post the website where you found this information please ?
http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2000-7182-1914

[Edited 2012-11-14 06:12:12]

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7231 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1273 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 1):
F9

I don't think F9 really can apply. They just sold DCA slots to US Airways and didn't even get government approval for the transaction. I don't think they will get any more slots for the foreseeable future, although I hope they apply--- to enjoy reading the comments about that in the docket.  


User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1270 times:

I thought NK sold its slots to WN? Either way, I think WN or B6 could possibly maybe pick these up,

User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1272 times:

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 6):
I thought NK sold its slots to WN?

Spirit sold 2 of their 3 slot pairs to WN. AIR21 are not allowed to be sold, so that 1 slot pair (which NK was using for FLL) was returned to the DOT.


User currently offlinemikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1270 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 5):
I don't think F9 really can apply. They just sold DCA slots to US Airways and didn't even get government approval for the transaction. I don't think they will get any more slots for the foreseeable future, although I hope they apply--- to enjoy reading the comments about that in the docket.

F9 did not own those slots, Republic did. And as far as I know they are still under Republic ownership, just flying under US's banner now.

I'd expect F9 to apply, but no idea where to.


User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2048 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1266 times:

I would love to see F9 reapply for COS-DCA. The Colorado Springs area is not a large city, but communities without service and smaller communities are considered. But there is a lot of military and high tech and non profits in the Springs. People from south metro DEN can also travel to COS.

Would love to see it happen. It didn't win last time. Maybe this time.


User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1269 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 9):
Would love to see it happen. It didn't win last time. Maybe this time.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but DCA-COS is ~1500 miles, and this AIR21 slot is specifically for sub-1,250 mile routes. Maybe they'll reapply for DCA-SDF? Maybe DCA-Florida?


User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5912 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1270 times:
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Quoting sdoyon (Reply 2):
As for other carriers who, at a quick glance, look like they have less than 40 slots (AC, AS, B6, F9, SY, VX) I think all except AS and VX will make bids.

Although it doesn't fit with the criteria listed, I can still see AS trying the SAN-DCA flights again.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5441 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1273 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 11):
Although it doesn't fit with the criteria listed, I can still see AS trying the SAN-DCA flights again.

I totally agree. Next time the DOT opens another Beyond-Perimeter hearing, I hope (and expect) to see that happen.

bb


User currently offlinemd3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1271 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 11):
Although it doesn't fit with the criteria listed, I can still see AS trying the SAN-DCA flights again.

While there's nothing keeping them from using their resources to complete a hopeless application, AS wouldn't waste their time. They know this is not a perimeter-exempt slot pair.

The next time the beyond perimeter slots are up for bid though, I'm sure we'll see an AS application, and I'll be supporting them.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4602 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1271 times:

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 2):
We'll definitely see something from WN/FL...maybe the return of the DCA-OKC application?

It would be logical that they would resubmit the application again. It was pretty much a no-brainer the last time, but was going up against retaining existing service. The only other competition was F9 to SDF which didn't seem to get much respect.

I'm hopeful we'll see the OKC application back, but sometime tells me they might just try for something else instead.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1273 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Air-21

Excuse my ignorance....but why do they call it "Air-21"??

Quoting enilria (Reply 5):
They just sold DCA slots to US Airways

That was not F9. That was Republic. F9 still has 3x DEN-DCA.

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 8):
I'd expect F9 to apply, but no idea where to.

I'd love to see an additional DEN-DCA slot for F9 making it 4x daily. But it is not within the 1,250 mile criteria.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1398 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1271 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
I'd love to see an additional DEN-DCA slot for F9 making it 4x daily. But it is not within the 1,250 mile criteria.

I think WN and UA would highly object to F9 ever getting more DCA-DEN.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1275 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 16):
I think WN and UA would highly object to F9 ever getting more DCA-DEN.

I don't care if WN objects. Tough. Let F9 apply for a 4th slot if they'd like.

UA on the other hand could use another DEN-DCA slot, too.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1274 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Excuse my ignorance....but why do they call it "Air-21"??

Nickname for the Congressional Wendell H. Ford Aviation Investment and Reform Act for the 21st Century.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1398 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1275 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
I don't care if WN objects. Tough. Let F9 apply for a 4th slot if they'd like.

UA on the other hand could use another DEN-DCA slot, too.

They had the opportunity to apply for DEN last time and they didn't. Plus if the did apply, there is no way they would ever get it. WN or UA would without doubt object and win.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1277 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 19):
WN or UA would without doubt object and win.

Disagree.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1398 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1274 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
Disagree.

I assume you disagree with WN and UA winning and not that they would object, so... How could F9 justify getting a fourth flight when UA has one and WN has none. (They can't)

[Edited 2012-11-14 10:15:43]


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5441 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1276 times:

I hate to be a party-pooper here but this thread would be a lot more manageable and less cluttered if we would all -- and I include myself -- quit talking about any routes outside of the 1,250-mile perimeter; anything beyond that is irrelevant to the topic.

Just a suggestion...  

bb


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1275 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 21):
I assume

Never assume. Its bad for you.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 21):
How could F9 justify getting a fourth flight when UA has one and WN has none. (They can't)

Have you looked at how FULL the F9 flights to DCA from DEN are these days? They are hardly non-rev-able anymore (which is not important)! That's how full they are. F9 can use a 4th somewhere in there. It is needed.

Call me anti-competitive and anti-WN but WN does not need a DEN-DCA. However, UA could use a 2nd slot.

DCA use to be one of the last great airports without WN presence/annoyance. It is sad to see that gone, IMO.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1398 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1272 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
Call me anti-competitive and anti-WN but WN does not need a DEN-DCA. However, UA could use a 2nd slot.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
DCA use to be one of the last great airports without WN presence/annoyance. It is sad to see that gone, IMO.

Well based on what you just said they are right. I would say in this case especially you are letting your opinions get in the way of common sense. Because of this, lets move on and get back to topic of the in perimeter slot competition.

[Edited 2012-11-14 10:42:06]


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
25 mariner : That's a.net. But I'm not sure why is is even being discussed in a "within perimeter" thread. DEN-DCA is beyond perimeter. mariner
26 Post contains images sdoyon : I'm curious to see B6's plans, especially since they've been in growth mode in DCA over the past year.
27 enilria : Republic and Frontier are the same company. There is no effective distinction. You are incorrect. The DCA slots were sold to US Airways. BB said just
28 plateman : Flew that on a middle of day in middle of month during no holiday ... both ways, 99% full.
29 AirframeAS : No, I'm not. The slots you speak of were never Frontier's to begin with. They were Republic's and/or Midwest's. The only DCA slots that Frontier had
30 flyiguy : I can see WN trying DCA-HOU or DCA-OKC Fly
31 mariner : At the very least, there is the distinction of the separate AOC's. It is on this distinction that Airtran/Southwest has based it's entirely proper ap
32 AirframeAS : Why not DCA-PHF (Newport News)?? Or has that already been tried? F9 could jump on that.
33 Post contains images SANFan : Hey everyone, Branson (whatever the heck their code is) is inside the perimeter! Problem solved... bb
34 flyiguy : BKG
35 SouthernDC9 : Where in the world on their current route map would B6 fly to though that meets these criteria? Spirit was using it for FLL (presumably approved base
36 airliner371 : I'm interested to see if/what B6 applies for. What can they apply for that would make sense for them and be either a monopoly route or a route not cur
37 AirframeAS : On a 1x daily A319, it would be fine. From military to military spots. Should do fine.
38 airliner371 : I could see WN going for that. I could see WN (if they are allowed to apply for multiple destinations) apply for MSY, HOU and OKC.
39 SouthernDC9 : Seems to me that WN to OKC (assuming they resubmit that proposal) is the front-runner, since WN lost out on the previous Air-21 slot competition becau
40 flyby519 : Im 100% sure B6 will at least submit an application for something. DCA-Florida is probably a good guess. Thoughts on DCA-ORD? DCA-DFW?
41 sdoyon : Remember: Places like IAH/HOU/DFW/ORD/MCO don't really meet most of the criteria.
42 AVLAirlineFreq : Exactly. I think previous Air-21 slots have gone for service to places like JAN and LEX.
43 enilria : Again, who cares? F9 is 100% owned by Republic. Everything that Frontier has is owned by Republic. "Frontier's" DCA slots are owned by Republic. That
44 SouthernDC9 : Is HOU inside or outside the perimeter? (I could look this up but distances confuse me so this is probably better.) But wasn't Spirit using the slot
45 mariner : The slots are attached to the AOC. When separation happens, Frontier will take its beyond perimeter slots with it - Republic cannot keep them nor rea
46 Post contains images AirframeAS : Obviously, you do, since you are commenting on it. Frontier's DCA slots are owned by Frontier who just happens to be owned by Republic. Frontier neve
47 FlyPNS1 : The problem with this route is just no real market. It's not that long of a drive...though traffic on that stretch can be tough. They could and would
48 AirframeAS : I know this is off topic but how long of a drive is it?
49 sdoyon : Google Maps says 3 hours, but they're notorious for over estimating.
50 airliner371 : Yes. Completely true but theses days it seems like they are. It has to be a small community. ORD and DFW are out of the picture. The only Florida cit
51 flyby519 : Does B6 serve DCA-JAX? I cant keep up with the new routes, but doesnt look like anything existing[Edited 2012-11-14 14:27:40]
52 mariner : And - if only to show that I don't always disagree with you - that is correct. According to the conference call, a number of the old Midwest slots to
53 airliner371 : No, B6 does not serve DCA-JAX.
54 Post contains images AirframeAS : It's the Midwest slots that were sold and/or given up. The slots that Frontier had never left F9's possession, which is the DEN-DCA slots. I think th
55 SouthernDC9 : Crikey, I didn't realize US Airways was flying that... but still, point being the proposed routes don't have to be restricted to Hooterville or some
56 mtnwest1979 : Well they will probably go to whoever proposes n/s to a place like South Bend, Shreveport, or Columbia,MO. Kind of a waste route like that when they s
57 FlyPeoria : Back before the official announcement of 4-weekly F9 DEN-BMI flights, an F9 DCA route was rumored. I don't see it happening though, and figure BMI an
58 jblua320 : It's too bad AUS exceeds the perimeter by about 60 miles because I'd bet JetBlue would JUMP on that opportunity to reapply for the route. I think B6 c
59 FlyPNS1 : BKG is in perimeter, but I don't think the market is there. OKC is I believe the largest in-perimeter market with no N/S service to DCA. No, it does
60 airliner371 : Yes, you are correct, the points count a lot though. My point was B6 applied for DCA-ORD it would be pushed to the bottom.
61 HiFlyerAS : I'd love to see AS surprise everyone by announcing a new midwestern city out of one of their west coast hubs IF they can be awarded through service t
62 ouboy79 : Which you think would make it a clear favorite...if WN picks it again. They could probably still tag it on to DAL if they wanted to.
63 b757capt : BMI to DCA would be interesting wouldn't it?
64 spiritair97 : Yes, but which airline would fly it? Didn't it state that the airline to win has to have less than 40 slots? US Airways is the only airline I can thi
65 b757capt : F9 would be interesting. I would be happy to see US fly it as well.
66 RyanairGuru : I was about to make a sarcastic comment about Gate 35 being a little underserved, and how it could really do with a bit more service, but - you're ri
67 bos2laf : My guesses would be RSW or PBI.
68 Post contains images spiritair97 : LOL! A few more flights never hurts! Those are reasonable, possible, and likely cities.
69 Surfandsnow : FL already serves DCA-RSW with an AIR-21 slot. If the slot can be transferred to WN, I don't think that service will end. The DOT probably wouldn't a
70 flyby519 : Speaking of F9, how about DCA-MSY in light of their recent MSY-TTN announcement?
71 FutureUScapt : There is nothing that precludes US from applying for this slot pair.
72 airliner371 : US can't apply, they have over 40 slots which is a limit.
73 ScottB : It has already been transferred to SWA as the FL certificate no longer exists. The law creating these slot exemptions specified a number of criteria
74 ADent : Why not? They won the last AIR-21 slot. Some justification:
75 ouboy79 : I think the main thing we need to keep in mind with the previous award, is that it was service that had been in existence for a good amount of time a
76 iowaman : I'd be surprised if WN doesn't show strong interest in OKC - they can easily do a one-stopper DAL-OKC-DCA if they wanted to or others such as PHX-OKC-
77 mariner : The DOT regards them as separate. The DOT - now - considers Frontier as a limited incumbent, which it did not do when Frontier was lumped in with Rep
78 airliner371 : Yes but the main point was that the Air21 slots FL has can convert at any time to WN.
79 mariner : I'm sure they can, I've said that they can, but that wasn't the point to which I responded. The distinction between Frontier and Republic is not "alm
80 HPRamper : The 40 slot bullet point was a guideline, not a rule. "Smaller communities" was also one. These are merely stating that airlines with proposals that
81 AirframeAS : We really need to get back on topic but I'll say this one last time and be done with it, but if you want to discuss this further, then my suggestion
82 enilria : Frontier Airbus aircraft routinely operated MKE-DCA, so if you are correct in your statement, the slots were transferred to F9's AOC making them "Fro
83 mariner : Nope. Frontier always flew those within perimeter routes using Republic slots. The application to transfer the remaining MKE slots to OMA and MSN was
84 airliner371 : Read....
85 airliner371 : I agree, I can't think of another route that would beat OKC on WN.
86 NWADTWE16 : How are VX DFW loads doing? I had heard well and since NK tapped into a goldmine, heres a curveball: take VX great product into super high dollar DFW-
87 airliner371 : They have a 1% of getting it because it is not supposed to be a big city.
88 NWADTWE16 : Oh right..lots of restrictions on these argh...i thought i found a winner!
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