LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22030 posts, RR: 51 Posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 437 times:
The DOT established proceeding to reallocated of two former Spirit Airlines within perimeter (1,250 miles) Air-21 slot exemptions at DCA.
Under the Air-21 rules the departments selection criteria consist of;
• New entrant air carriers or limited incumbent air carriers (hold fewer than 40 slots at DCA)
• Service to communities without existing nonstop air transportation to DCA.
• Service to smaller communities.
• Provide competitive nonstop air service on a monopoly DCA route.
• Produce competitive consumer benefits including low fares.
Applications due December 5, 2012.
OST-2000-7182
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
sdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 188 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 441 times:
We'll definitely see something from WN/FL...maybe the return of the DCA-OKC application?
As for other carriers who, at a quick glance, look like they have less than 40 slots (AC, AS, B6, F9, SY, VX) I think all except AS and VX will make bids.
countrymalenc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 443 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter): The DOT established proceeding to reallocated of two former Spirit Airlines within perimeter (1,250 miles) Air-21 slot exemptions at DCA
Could you post the website where you found this information please ?
I don't think F9 really can apply. They just sold DCA slots to US Airways and didn't even get government approval for the transaction. I don't think they will get any more slots for the foreseeable future, although I hope they apply--- to enjoy reading the comments about that in the docket.
mikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12 Reply 8, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 444 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 5): I don't think F9 really can apply. They just sold DCA slots to US Airways and didn't even get government approval for the transaction. I don't think they will get any more slots for the foreseeable future, although I hope they apply--- to enjoy reading the comments about that in the docket.
F9 did not own those slots, Republic did. And as far as I know they are still under Republic ownership, just flying under US's banner now.
klwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 440 times:
I would love to see F9 reapply for COS-DCA. The Colorado Springs area is not a large city, but communities without service and smaller communities are considered. But there is a lot of military and high tech and non profits in the Springs. People from south metro DEN can also travel to COS.
Would love to see it happen. It didn't win last time. Maybe this time.
sdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 188 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 443 times:
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 9): Would love to see it happen. It didn't win last time. Maybe this time.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but DCA-COS is ~1500 miles, and this AIR21 slot is specifically for sub-1,250 mile routes. Maybe they'll reapply for DCA-SDF? Maybe DCA-Florida?
wedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5527 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 444 times:
Quoting sdoyon (Reply 2): As for other carriers who, at a quick glance, look like they have less than 40 slots (AC, AS, B6, F9, SY, VX) I think all except AS and VX will make bids.
Although it doesn't fit with the criteria listed, I can still see AS trying the SAN-DCA flights again.
md3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 83 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 445 times:
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 11): Although it doesn't fit with the criteria listed, I can still see AS trying the SAN-DCA flights again.
While there's nothing keeping them from using their resources to complete a hopeless application, AS wouldn't waste their time. They know this is not a perimeter-exempt slot pair.
The next time the beyond perimeter slots are up for bid though, I'm sure we'll see an AS application, and I'll be supporting them.
ouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3997 posts, RR: 23 Reply 14, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 445 times:
Quoting sdoyon (Reply 2): We'll definitely see something from WN/FL...maybe the return of the DCA-OKC application?
It would be logical that they would resubmit the application again. It was pretty much a no-brainer the last time, but was going up against retaining existing service. The only other competition was F9 to SDF which didn't seem to get much respect.
I'm hopeful we'll see the OKC application back, but sometime tells me they might just try for something else instead.
Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 15, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 447 times:
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 17, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 449 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 16): I think WN and UA would highly object to F9 ever getting more DCA-DEN.
I don't care if WN objects. Tough. Let F9 apply for a 4th slot if they'd like.
UA on the other hand could use another DEN-DCA slot, too.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 449 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17): I don't care if WN objects. Tough. Let F9 apply for a 4th slot if they'd like.
UA on the other hand could use another DEN-DCA slot, too.
They had the opportunity to apply for DEN last time and they didn't. Plus if the did apply, there is no way they would ever get it. WN or UA would without doubt object and win.
I assume you disagree with WN and UA winning and not that they would object, so... How could F9 justify getting a fourth flight when UA has one and WN has none. (They can't)
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4720 posts, RR: 15 Reply 22, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 450 times:
I hate to be a party-pooper here but this thread would be a lot more manageable and less cluttered if we would all -- and I include myself -- quit talking about any routes outside of the 1,250-mile perimeter; anything beyond that is irrelevant to the topic.
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 21): How could F9 justify getting a fourth flight when UA has one and WN has none. (They can't)
Have you looked at how FULL the F9 flights to DCA from DEN are these days? They are hardly non-rev-able anymore (which is not important)! That's how full they are. F9 can use a 4th somewhere in there. It is needed.
Call me anti-competitive and anti-WN but WN does not need a DEN-DCA. However, UA could use a 2nd slot.
DCA use to be one of the last great airports without WN presence/annoyance. It is sad to see that gone, IMO.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 446 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23): Call me anti-competitive and anti-WN but WN does not need a DEN-DCA. However, UA could use a 2nd slot.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23): DCA use to be one of the last great airports without WN presence/annoyance. It is sad to see that gone, IMO.
Well based on what you just said they are right. I would say in this case especially you are letting your opinions get in the way of common sense. Because of this, lets move on and get back to topic of the in perimeter slot competition.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22711 posts, RR: 88 Reply 25, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 673 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 24): Well based on what you just said they are right. I would say in this case especially you are letting your opinions get in the way of common sense.
That's a.net.
But I'm not sure why is is even being discussed in a "within perimeter" thread. DEN-DCA is beyond perimeter.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6134 posts, RR: 13 Reply 27, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 773 times:
Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 8): F9 did not own those slots, Republic did. And as far as I know they are still under Republic ownership, just flying under US's banner now.
Republic and Frontier are the same company. There is no effective distinction. You are incorrect. The DCA slots were sold to US Airways. BB said just that in the Q+A section of the just completed quarterly call. Since they were sold to the dominant carrier at DCA it should have required DOT/DOJ review based on precedent, but is appears they just did it. There was no review requested. There are no public comments from any of the parties stating that it was reviewed or approved. Nevertheless, the slots are now the property of US Airways. Apparently it was necessary for RJET to sell the slots to encourage US Airways to take back some of their E190s.
plateman From United States of America, joined May 2007, 904 posts, RR: 0 Reply 28, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 749 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23): Have you looked at how FULL the F9 flights to DCA from DEN are these days? They are hardly non-rev-able anymore (which is not important)! That's how full they are. F9 can use a 4th somewhere in there. It is needed.
Flew that on a middle of day in middle of month during no holiday ... both ways, 99% full.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 29, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 754 times:
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22711 posts, RR: 88 Reply 31, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 731 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 27): Republic and Frontier are the same company. There is no effective distinction.
At the very least, there is the distinction of the separate AOC's. It is on this distinction that Airtran/Southwest has based it's entirely proper application for DEN-SJD.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29): The only DCA slots that Frontier had before Republic ever came onto the property was the DEN-DCA 3x slots.
That remains the case. Frontier does not have any within perimeter DCA slots assigned to its AOC.
To try and get this thread back on-topic, I have no idea if Frontier will apply for these within perimeter slots, partly because of the constrained fleet - although that may change in the near future.
Nor can I think where it would apply for. The obvious one - DCA-MCO - has too much competition, but I guess there may be a couple of mid-western cities that merit the service - BMI, perhaps?
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 32, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 728 times:
SouthernDC9 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 263 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 738 times:
Quoting sdoyon (Reply 26): I'm curious to see B6's plans, especially since they've been in growth mode in DCA over the past year.
Where in the world on their current route map would B6 fly to though that meets these criteria? Spirit was using it for FLL (presumably approved based on the pricing/monopoly factors) so I suppose B6 could propose something similar to one of their FL cities (not FLL at this point) or to what, New Orleans? (Since US is only airline on that route.) But I think service to a smaller city with no existing service would be more compelling...
Am I wrong to think that B6 is probably not going to start service to a new city for the sole purpose of serving it from DCA?
What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 36, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 749 times:
I'm interested to see if/what B6 applies for. What can they apply for that would make sense for them and be either a monopoly route or a route not currently being served.
WN will almost positively apply. F9 and B6 are the big questions, the rest are coin tosses. SY could do something small similar to there LAN flights, AC could apply but for what? I think we can also get rid of AS and VX or else we are up for a big surprise.
Completely my opinion:
Likely: WN
Unknown: B6, SY, F9
Leaning Unlikely: AC
Unlikely: AS, VX
The only other thing I can think of is if Allegiant wants to come in with one flight.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 32): Why not DCA-PHF (Newport News)?? Or has that already been tried? F9 could jump on that.
On an Airbus that seems like way to much capacity.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 37, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 752 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 36): On an Airbus that seems like way to much capacity.
On a 1x daily A319, it would be fine. From military to military spots. Should do fine.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
SouthernDC9 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 263 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 747 times:
Seems to me that WN to OKC (assuming they resubmit that proposal) is the front-runner, since WN lost out on the previous Air-21 slot competition because of a bit of a fluke (they were up against JAN which already had service that DL had dropped and that was picked up by knight-in-shining-armor US Airways, so rather than it just being a matter of rewarding service to a city the idea of taking service away from a city was in the mix, which had to have worked in JAN's favor). So this is a perfect opportunity to give a consolation prize of sorts to WN while also meeting most if not all of the criteria laid out for the Air-21 slots.
What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
flyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 852 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 746 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 36): I'm interested to see if/what B6 applies for. What can they apply for that would make sense for them and be either a monopoly route or a route not currently being served.
Im 100% sure B6 will at least submit an application for something. DCA-Florida is probably a good guess. Thoughts on DCA-ORD? DCA-DFW?
AVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 787 posts, RR: 0 Reply 42, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 729 times:
Quoting sdoyon (Reply 41): Places like IAH/HOU/DFW/ORD/MCO don't really meet most of the criteria.
Exactly. I think previous Air-21 slots have gone for service to places like JAN and LEX.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6134 posts, RR: 13 Reply 43, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 729 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 29): Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
You are incorrect.
No, I'm not. The slots you speak of were never Frontier's to begin with. They were Republic's and/or Midwest's.
The only DCA slots that Frontier had before Republic ever came onto the property was the DEN-DCA 3x slots.
Quoting mariner (Reply 31): Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
Republic and Frontier are the same company. There is no effective distinction.
At the very least, there is the distinction of the separate AOC's.
Again, who cares? F9 is 100% owned by Republic. Everything that Frontier has is owned by Republic. "Frontier's" DCA slots are owned by Republic. That's not what I was even talking about, but since you bring it up...
"The slots you speak of were never Frontier's to begin with"
Frontier's slots are not Frontier's slots. All Frontier assets are owned by Republic just like Midwest was, which in turn is owned by the shareholders of Republic.
As for the separate AOC. Republic has a collection of AOCs for its various units. So what?
Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 8): as far as I know they are still under Republic ownership, just flying under US's banner now.
That is simply false as I said. The slots we are talking about, which are not the DEN slots, were sold by RJET to US Airways. It was discussed in the quarterly conference call. How clear do I have to make it?
SouthernDC9 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 263 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 725 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 38): I could see WN (if they are allowed to apply for multiple destinations) apply for MSY, HOU and OKC.
Is HOU inside or outside the perimeter? (I could look this up but distances confuse me so this is probably better.)
Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 42): Exactly. I think previous Air-21 slots have gone for service to places like JAN and LEX.
But wasn't Spirit using the slot for FLL? Because that's not a small or underserved market at all - seems like that only met the bust-a-monopoly/bring-down-airfares criteria (and the limited incumbent air carrier factor)... three out of five ain't bad but it seems like the right bigger markets could be targeted. So - could limited incumbent carrier Sun Country propose n/s DCA-MSP service (no clever LAN stopover) to break DL's monopoly on that flight and offer lower fares?
[Edited 2012-11-14 13:29:58]
What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22711 posts, RR: 88 Reply 45, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 729 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 43): As for the separate AOC. Republic has a collection of AOCs for its various units. So what?
The slots are attached to the AOC.
When separation happens, Frontier will take its beyond perimeter slots with it - Republic cannot keep them nor reassign them. I've no idea what will happen to the within perimeter Republic slots that Frontier has been using.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 46, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 730 times:
Obviously, you do, since you are commenting on it.
Quoting enilria (Reply 43): "Frontier's" DCA slots are owned by Republic.
Frontier's DCA slots are owned by Frontier who just happens to be owned by Republic. Frontier never owned any other slots outside the DEN-DCA slots. Now if the company is sold off to someone else, the slots remain with Frontier.
Quoting enilria (Reply 43): Frontier's slots are not Frontier's slots.
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6049 posts, RR: 25 Reply 47, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 722 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37): On a 1x daily A319, it would be fine. From military to military spots. Should do fine.
The problem with this route is just no real market. It's not that long of a drive...though traffic on that stretch can be tough.
Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 44): So - could limited incumbent carrier Sun Country propose n/s DCA-MSP service (no clever LAN stopover) to break DL's monopoly on that flight and offer lower fares?
They could and would have a decent case. I fully expect SY to bid for MSP.
Not all Air-21 slots are created equal. The slots that were used for LEX and JAN were specifically required to be used for small markets. The slots that NK had and used to FLL did not have that requirement on them, however smaller communities are still a scoring factor as increasing overall access to DCA is a goal. NK won FLL even though FLL was not small and was not unserved (US already flew it at the time and still does).
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 48, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 710 times:
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 50, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 724 times:
Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 44): Is HOU inside or outside the perimeter? (I could look this up but distances confuse me so this is probably better.)
Yes.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 47): Not all Air-21 slots are created equal.
Completely true but theses days it seems like they are.
Quoting flyby519 (Reply 40): Im 100% sure B6 will at least submit an application for something. DCA-Florida is probably a good guess. Thoughts on DCA-ORD? DCA-DFW?
It has to be a small community. ORD and DFW are out of the picture. The only Florida cities that they serve today that are monopolies from DCA are PBI, SRQ and JAX.
Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 44): could limited incumbent carrier Sun Country propose n/s DCA-MSP service (no clever LAN stopover) to break DL's monopoly on that flight and offer lower fares?
US Airways competes with Delta on the route, its not a monopoly.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22711 posts, RR: 88 Reply 52, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 680 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 43): The slots we are talking about, which are not the DEN slots, were sold by RJET to US Airways. It was discussed in the quarterly conference call. How clear do I have to make it?
And - if only to show that I don't always disagree with you - that is correct.
According to the conference call, a number of the old Midwest slots to DCA (which Republic acquired with the purchase of Midwest) were sold to US Airways.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 54, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 683 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 52): According to the conference call, a number of the old Midwest slots to DCA (which Republic acquired with the purchase of Midwest) were sold to US Airways.
It's the Midwest slots that were sold and/or given up. The slots that Frontier had never left F9's possession, which is the DEN-DCA slots.
I think that just about covers it on this issue.
Getting back on the topic at hand here, what other airports need access to DCA (Or D.C. in general) that is not served now? BKG was mentioned....but is that within parameter?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
SouthernDC9 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 263 posts, RR: 0 Reply 55, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 703 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 50): US Airways competes with Delta on the route, its not a monopoly.
Crikey, I didn't realize US Airways was flying that... but still, point being the proposed routes don't have to be restricted to Hooterville or some such, larger airports aren't out of the picture...
What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
mtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2121 posts, RR: 1 Reply 56, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 672 times:
Well they will probably go to whoever proposes n/s to a place like South Bend, Shreveport, or Columbia,MO. Kind of a waste route like that when they should be used on a route that shows there is a high demand,IMO. Who cares if there are 4 'lines flying it. If they are packed and $$ being made, additions should be made.
FlyPeoria From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 377 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 691 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 31): Nor can I think where it would apply for. The obvious one - DCA-MCO - has too much competition, but I guess there may be a couple of mid-western cities that merit the service - BMI, perhaps?
Back before the official announcement of 4-weekly F9 DEN-BMI flights, an F9 DCA route was rumored. I don't see it happening though, and figure BMI and CMI (both of which received SCASD funds this year) know their best chance for service to a NE city is UA to IAD.
jblua320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3160 posts, RR: 21 Reply 58, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 665 times:
It's too bad AUS exceeds the perimeter by about 60 miles because I'd bet JetBlue would JUMP on that opportunity to reapply for the route.
I think B6 could apply for JAX. More "out of the box" perhaps they'd apply for PIT? We'll have the space there now since JFK is getting the axe. PVD could be another interesting one, connecting southbound passengers via DCA to more cities in Florida and in SJU.
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6049 posts, RR: 25 Reply 59, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 640 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 54): Getting back on the topic at hand here, what other airports need access to DCA (Or D.C. in general) that is not served now? BKG was mentioned....but is that within parameter?
BKG is in perimeter, but I don't think the market is there.
OKC is I believe the largest in-perimeter market with no N/S service to DCA.
HiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 606 posts, RR: 1 Reply 61, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 638 times:
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 11): Although it doesn't fit with the criteria listed, I can still see AS trying the SAN-DCA flights again.
I'd love to see AS surprise everyone by announcing a new midwestern city out of one of their west coast hubs IF they can be awarded through service to DCA from said new city (SEA-OMA?)
spiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1 Reply 64, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 599 times:
Yes, but which airline would fly it? Didn't it state that the airline to win has to have less than 40 slots? US Airways is the only airline I can think of that would, but they definitely have more than 40 slots.
RyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 2506 posts, RR: 2 Reply 66, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 569 times:
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 64): which airline would fly it? Didn't it state that the airline to win has to have less than 40 slots? US Airways is the only airline I can think of that would, but they definitely have more than 40 slots.
I was about to make a sarcastic comment about Gate 35 being a little underserved, and how it could really do with a bit more service, but - you're right - I'd forgotten that US couldn't apply.
Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 56): Well they will probably go to whoever proposes n/s to a place like South Bend, Shreveport, or Columbia,MO.
The only problem is that the only airline I can see applying for one of those routes... can't.
As an aside, could PSA apply for an oddball route on it's own certificate???
bos2laf From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 354 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 567 times:
Quoting flyby519 (Reply 40): Im 100% sure B6 will at least submit an application for something. DCA-Florida is probably a good guess. Thoughts on DCA-ORD? DCA-DFW?
spiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1 Reply 68, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 568 times:
Surfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2588 posts, RR: 31 Reply 69, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 559 times:
FL already serves DCA-RSW with an AIR-21 slot. If the slot can be transferred to WN, I don't think that service will end. The DOT probably wouldn't allocate another AIR-21 slot for that route, unless FL/WN had announced their intention to drop it.
FL had also applied for (and won) an AIR-21 slot to serve DCA-PBI. It didn't take long for them to come back to the DOT, asking them to allow its transfer to the ATL hub as PBI was not a viable year round market. The DOT agreed and granted the request. FL then tried to do the same thing with DCA-RSW, but was rebuffed. Anyone applying for DCA-Florida better be ready to stick it out all summer long. Even so, B6 appears to be doing very well in the DCA-Florida realm. I would expect them to apply, with a proposal for JAX (IMO more likely) or PBI (less likely, due to among other things rather frequent DCA service out of nearby FLL). B6 could always surprise us with something like BUF or BDL, though!
WN will certainly be going after this slot too. I wonder if they'll try for OKC again, or perhaps try for something else. Something like BHM springs to mind. Or MKE, as WN could try to argue that it does not have enough DCA slots to keep that service going.
Can this slot be used by Canadian carriers like PD or WS?
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
FutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 761 posts, RR: 1 Reply 71, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 527 times:
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 64): Yes, but which airline would fly it? Didn't it state that the airline to win has to have less than 40 slots? US Airways is the only airline I can think of that would, but they definitely have more than 40 slots.
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 66): but - you're right - I'd forgotten that US couldn't apply
There is nothing that precludes US from applying for this slot pair.
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6361 posts, RR: 34 Reply 73, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 512 times:
Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 69): FL already serves DCA-RSW with an AIR-21 slot. If the slot can be transferred to WN, I don't think that service will end.
It has already been transferred to SWA as the FL certificate no longer exists.
Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 56): Kind of a waste route like that when they should be used on a route that shows there is a high demand,IMO. Who cares if there are 4 'lines flying it. If they are packed and $$ being made, additions should be made.
The law creating these slot exemptions specified a number of criteria by which applications for the exemptions would be judged: providing service to small and/or unserved markets (within perimeter) was among those criteria, along with adding competitive non-stop service to a monopoly route.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 54): It's the Midwest slots that were sold and/or given up. The slots that Frontier had never left F9's possession, which is the DEN-DCA slots.
The distinction is almost meaningless since F9 and YX remain under the same corporate holding company and the "Midwest" slots were very recently used to provide "Frontier" service.
ADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1178 posts, RR: 1 Reply 74, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 513 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 72):
US can't apply, they have over 40 slots which is a limit.
Why not? They won the last AIR-21 slot.
Some justification:
Quote: The 41718(b) criteria:
(1) by new entrant air carriers and limited incumbent air carriers;
(2) to communities without existing nonstop air transportation to
Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport;
(3) to small communities;
(4) that will provide competitive nonstop air transportation on a
monopoly nonstop route to Ronald Reagan Washington
National Airport; or (emphasis added)
(5) that will produce the maximum competitive benefits, including
low fares.
They concluded that the criteria are OR statements, so it doesn't matter who meets the most of them.
Quote:
Accordingly, the Department has the discretion to premise an award based upon satisfaction of less than the greatest number of criteria, or even one criteria, listed in Section 41718(b), based upon the Department's analysis of the relative merits of each carrier's proposal when evaluated under the Section 41718(b) criteria.
ouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3997 posts, RR: 23 Reply 75, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 508 times:
Quoting ADent (Reply 74): Why not? They won the last AIR-21 slot.
Some justification:
I think the main thing we need to keep in mind with the previous award, is that it was service that had been in existence for a good amount of time already. US was given temporary rights to the slots to keep it going once DL left. I would hazard to guess the DOT will also side on maintaining existing, proven service over moving the slot to another route. In this case, the existing service is gone and the slot isn't being maintained by anyone. So it is a free to be moved around more and the DOT will take the opportunity to place it with a limited incumbent carrier.
Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
iowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4089 posts, RR: 7 Reply 76, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 511 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
I'd be surprised if WN doesn't show strong interest in OKC - they can easily do a one-stopper DAL-OKC-DCA if they wanted to or others such as PHX-OKC-DCA or LAS-OKC-DCA.
Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 44): So - could limited incumbent carrier Sun Country propose n/s DCA-MSP service (no clever LAN stopover) to break DL's monopoly on that flight and offer lower fares?
Technically DL does not have a monopoly on this route as US flies 3x daily E170 on DCA-MSP. SY would certainly bring fares down though and would probably do well on this.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22711 posts, RR: 88 Reply 77, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 531 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 73): The distinction is almost meaningless since F9 and YX remain under the same corporate holding company and the "Midwest" slots were very recently used to provide "Frontier" service.
The DOT regards them as separate.
The DOT - now - considers Frontier as a limited incumbent, which it did not do when Frontier was lumped in with Republic.
HPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3662 posts, RR: 8 Reply 80, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 514 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 72): US can't apply, they have over 40 slots which is a limit.
The 40 slot bullet point was a guideline, not a rule. "Smaller communities" was also one. These are merely stating that airlines with proposals that fit into those guides will probably be more likely to win out. US does indeed have a chance, albeit a smaller chance than some other airlines.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 81, posted (6 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 500 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 73): The distinction is almost meaningless since F9 and YX remain under the same corporate holding company and the "Midwest" slots were very recently used to provide "Frontier" service.
We really need to get back on topic but I'll say this one last time and be done with it, but if you want to discuss this further, then my suggestion is to start a new thread. Now, having said that: The slots Midwest held were Republic's slots. F9 never held the slots, but flew the slots on Republic's behalf before Republic got rid of them and/or gave them up.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6134 posts, RR: 13 Reply 82, posted (6 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 500 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 45): The slots are attached to the AOC.
Frontier Airbus aircraft routinely operated MKE-DCA, so if you are correct in your statement, the slots were transferred to F9's AOC making them "Frontier's slots". Of course, you are not right, only Beyond Perimeter and Air21 slots are attached to the AOC. Anyway, it all belongs to Republic...
Quoting mariner (Reply 52): And - if only to show that I don't always disagree with you - that is correct.
Appreciated. That was, after all, the point of my comment.
Quoting mariner (Reply 77): The DOT regards them as separate.
I suspect now that RJET did this transaction to give those slots to the dominant carriers in LGA/DCA without requesting approval, the DOT will take a much harder line on RJET and its affiliated companies.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 73): The distinction is almost meaningless since F9 and YX remain under the same corporate holding company and the "Midwest" slots were very recently used to provide "Frontier" service.
It's funny how people are in denial that Frontier is completely owned and controlled by Republic. I don't see people arguing American Eagle's airplanes are not AMR's to make decisions with, LOL.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22711 posts, RR: 88 Reply 83, posted (6 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 501 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 82): Frontier Airbus aircraft routinely operated MKE-DCA, so if you are correct in your statement, the slots were transferred to F9's AOC making them "Frontier's slots".
Nope. Frontier always flew those within perimeter routes using Republic slots.
The application to transfer the remaining MKE slots to OMA and MSN was made by Republic, not by Frontier.
Quoting enilria (Reply 82): It's funny how people are in denial that Frontier is completely owned and controlled by Republic.
Why would anyone be in denial? If it were not for Republic, Frontier would not exist. Hooray for Republic.
Simply pointing out the simple fact - the DOT now regards Frontier as a limited incumbent, which it did not do until the time of the slot auction.
If Frontier were not regarded as a limited incumbent, then any discussion about Frontier applying for these particular slots would be a waste of time, because it couldn't.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 84, posted (6 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 504 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 59): No, it does not. These slots do not require it to be a small community, though some points are scored if it is.
Read....
Quote: Under this provision, then, a maximum of four slot exemptions may be used to serve large hubs. Currently, all large hub opportunities have been allocated, as have the six exemptions specifically for small and nonhub airports. Therefore, to be responsive to this request and eligible for award, carriers must propose service with Stage 3 aircraft to a medium hub or smaller airport within the 1,250-mile perimeter.
NWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0 Reply 86, posted (6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 501 times:
How are VX DFW loads doing? I had heard well and since NK tapped into a goldmine, heres a curveball: take VX great product into super high dollar DFW-DCA market?? Gets VX out of the coast to coast box and could be a real dollar winner for them..opinions?
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