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Will AZ Ever Re-establish Its MXP Hub?  
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1441 times:

What is the status of AZ as an airline right now? I think it was a mistake to dehub MXP and focus on FCO. MXP is better located geographically to be a hub and spoke airport. FCO just involves backtracking for most people in Italy and Europe. Plus all the premium traffic is in Northern Italy. With everything being said what do you think the chances are for AF/KL to allow the MXP hub to be reestablished? I think MXP will compliment skyteam and CDG/AMS much better than FCO. I still dont know what purpose FCO plays in the skyteam system.

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1447 times:

Linate would need to close to FCO-LIN flights only

User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1455 times:

Quoting miaintl (Thread starter):
What is the status of AZ as an airline right now?

They are still an airline.  



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineQFVHOQA From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1455 times:

MXP may be better located than FCO for an intra-EU hub, but FCO has higher O&D than MXP. MXP was doomed to fail when airlines were permitted to fly to LIN from within the EU. Now that the LCCs have taken over MXP, it may be too late to re-establish MXP as an AZ hub.

FCO is useful for EU-Africa flights (though I don't know how many it supports) in the same way that MAD is a better hub for EU-Africa flights than LHR is for oneworld.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1455 times:

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 3):

I dont think its too late to establish an MXP hub. The LCCs can have LIN completely to themselves and MXP can handle all the AZ and scheduled airlines operations. Plus skyteam has no need for AZ's africa flights, AF and KL both operate to all those destinations and even more. Keep in mind that the idea to close MXP came from AF, who wanted to steal AZ's northern Italian and continental Europe clientele.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1455 times:

Europe has too many hubs as it is, so adding another one, particularly one that wasn't viable before, is a challenge.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 3):
MXP was doomed to fail when airlines were permitted to fly to LIN from within the EU.

  



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1455 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):

MXP was very viable when it was a hub, it failed because AZ tried to keep FCO open and focus on a joint-hub system which was inappropriate for AZ at the time. But now that AZ has its finances in check it certainly make a MXP hub work.


User currently offlineQFVHOQA From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1455 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 6):
MXP was very viable when it was a hub, it failed because AZ tried to keep FCO open and focus on a joint-hub system which was inappropriate for AZ at the time. But now that AZ has its finances in check it certainly make a MXP hub work.

I'm not so sure AZ could make a MXP hub work. According to the old AZ, more than 50% of pax in Milan / Northern Italy did not use MXP as their gateway for flights. They instead used LIN to connect to other hubs like FRA or CDG.

Alitalia's Milan decision could destabilise sale process


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1455 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 4):
I dont think its too late to establish an MXP hub. The LCCs can have LIN completely to themselves and MXP can handle all the AZ and scheduled airlines operations. Plus skyteam has no need for AZ's africa flights, AF and KL both operate to all those destinations and even more. Keep in mind that the idea to close MXP came from AF, who wanted to steal AZ's northern Italian and continental Europe clientele.

well - what sence would make to change LIN from a high yield airport - near of the city to a LCC (who are normally not willing to pay fees etc the same way the legancy carriers are doing? btw LCC have as well scheduled operations.

Well if not for Africa (its the only real region were most European origins would need to to backtrack) - what other need would have skyteam from AZ flights?

I think NorthItaly is in general an complicate market - LH has tons of feederflights to MUC, FRA, and to all other "LH Group memmber" hubs. AF / KL to their hubs, BA to LHR/LGW, IB to MAD for SouthAmerica etc

LH was always successfull with feeding their traditional hubs with passengers from north Italy, but they failed establishing an own hub as LH Italy in MXP



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2640 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1455 times:
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Well there is also Air One in MXP which I think can do a better job than Alitalia (cost-structure). Air One had recently launched new flights and currently they operate internationally to Prague, Munich, Kiev, Belgrade, Tirana and Warsaw. They also have a total of six domestic routes. That is not that bad.

Also from what I could see you can fly from Belgrade to Milan on Air One and then connect to one of Alitalia's intercontinental flights. I guess that this will be the model used in the future.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1455 times:

Are AZ's long-haul flights even profitable out of FCO? I doubt they get any premium traffic plus little to no feed which is the main reason the ORD and EWR routes failed. When MXP was a hub it was a gateway to Eastern Europe and the Balkans, it gave VIE a run for its money for gateway to eastern europe. Keep in mind that Skyteam is relatively weak in Eastern Europe so MXP could be skyteam's answer to VIE. I know that some people will mention PRG and CZ, but PRG does not have any long-haul traffic to feed its Eastern Europe flights, AZ on the other the hand does.

User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1456 times:

MXP is just too far outside of Milan. People don't want to drive 1-1.5 hours to get to MXP when LIN is right there. Unless LIN is reduced to intra-Italy flights only MXP will remain the airport of use for international flights (outside of Europe) and for LCC's.

Is there any room to expand LIN?


User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 885 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1454 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 10):
Keep in mind that Skyteam is relatively weak in Eastern Europe so MXP could be skyteam's answer to VIE.

Well, with OK at PRG being the biggest airport for pax number in Eastern Europe, plus RO at OTP and SU at SVO with more than 100 Airbus in fleet, I don't call that, weak...


User currently offlinekyrone From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1454 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 9):
Well there is also Air One in MXP which I think can do a better job than Alitalia (cost-structure).

I'm lost... didnt Air One and Alitalia merge like three years ago?


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2640 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1453 times:
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Quoting kyrone (Reply 13):

They did but Air One kept its brand and operates as a lowcost airline.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1453 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 6):
MXP was very viable when it was a hub, it failed because AZ tried to keep FCO open and focus on a joint-hub system

Airlines don't close profitable hubs. Particularly ones that are a distant second in terms of preferred local airport.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2089 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
Airlines don't close profitable hubs. Particularly ones that are a distant second in terms of preferred local airport.

Neither FCO nor MXP were profitable for AZ as hubs, because two hubs weren't viable for the airline. Of the two, MXP was in the stronger position to be successful in a one-hub network, but political pressure did not allow AZ to pull its long-range flights from Rome.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1453 times:
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Linate is teh favorite feeder airport for every long haul airline in Europe. FCO is great for Rome but lousy for Italy.

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 10):
Are AZ's long-haul flights even profitable out of FCO? I doubt they get any premium traffic plus little to no feed which is the main reason the ORD and EWR routes failed

FCO may have lower yield than NorthItaly but that they dont get any premium traffic? well I highly doubt this...

Anyhow I think AZ made the correct decicion to change their main operations to FCO - as they simply can not compete in a same page with the Big European carriers.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1450 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):

Neither FCO nor MXP were profitable for AZ as hubs, because two hubs weren't viable for the airline. Of the two, MXP was in the stronger position to be successful in a one-hub network, but political pressure did not allow AZ to pull its long-range flights from Rome.

FCO is much larger, and MXP is riddled with LCC capacity since LIN is preferred by far. If LIN was closed MXP may have had a shot at working, otherwise FCO was and is the best option.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinedelta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1452 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 10):
Keep in mind that Skyteam is relatively weak in Eastern Europe
Quoting AirGabon (Reply 12):
Well, with OK at PRG being the biggest airport for pax number in Eastern Europe, plus RO at OTP and SU at SVO with more than 100 Airbus in fleet, I don't call that, weak...

  



From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
User currently offlinelisbonbearuk From Portugal, joined Jan 2010, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1449 times:

Where do AZ serve intercontinentally from MXP? Do they have a long haul crew vase there still?

User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2179 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1448 times:

Quoting miaintl (Thread starter):
What is the status of AZ as an airline right now? I think it was a mistake to dehub MXP and focus on FCO. MXP is better located geographically to be a hub and spoke airport. FCO just involves backtracking for most people in Italy and Europe. Plus all the premium traffic is in Northern Italy. With everything being said what do you think the chances are for AF/KL to allow the MXP hub to be reestablished? I think MXP will compliment skyteam and CDG/AMS much better than FCO. I still dont know what purpose FCO plays in the skyteam system.

Backtracking depends where one is coming from. Certainly no backtracking involved for fellows flying from Africa and most of Asia going towards N and Central Europe.

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
Neither FCO nor MXP were profitable for AZ as hubs, because two hubs weren't viable for the airline. Of the two, MXP was in the stronger position to be successful in a one-hub network, but political pressure did not allow AZ to pull its long-range flights from Rome.

MXP may be "ok" as a hub, but it just sucks in terms of o&d as it is beaten flat by LIN, which however cannot ever become a hub. AZ simply could not rely on this at MXP, while they can for FCO. Proof that a hub in the middle of nowhere (which is what MXP is, due to poor transportation options) does not work well.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
Linate is teh favorite feeder airport for every long haul airline in Europe. FCO is great for Rome but lousy for Italy.

I do not agree about FCO being lousy for Italy. FCO has a much better location for most Italians and Europeans for:
-Africa
-Middle East
-S and SE Asia
=where the money is being made on long haul flights. I see no reason to think of Europe - NAm as the milk cow and the strategic market anymore. If anything, it is where losses are being generated. Furthermore, AZ already indirectly has two hubs that serve that purpose better than MXP would ever do, for obvious geographical reasons: these are CDG and AMS, thanks to the JV with AF-KL and DL. No point having yet another one, which is a smaller airport, less conveniently located for most Europeans, and awful for o&d.
FCO is a chance for AZ, as long they don't focus on N Am (key routes can certainly work of course but that's it), and I certainly hope they eventually see FCO has a chance for expansion towards the markets mentioned above. They have nothing to win by serving overserved N Am from a mediocre (at best) hub : MXP, or a poorly located one : FCO. I see this a much better strategy than trying to expand out of MXP yet again.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25338 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1448 times:

Quoting lisbonbearuk (Reply 21):
Where do AZ serve intercontinentally from MXP?

JFK, MIA, NRT, CAI.


User currently offlinelisbonbearuk From Portugal, joined Jan 2010, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1448 times:

To describe MXP as poorly connected and in the middle of nowhere is just rubbish. It sits on several major motorway corridors and has a fast connection (30 minutes or so) from downtown Milan by train. That's comparable to LHR, LGW, STN, BRU, CDG, ORY, MAD, BCN and many others.

25 LINATHJNX : Maybe AZ will have better chances in FCO but saying that MXP is in the middle of nowhere it's totally not correct. It is in the middle of a big indust
26 HB-IWC : And MXP MIA service will apparently end S13.
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