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Air France A350 Firm Order Probably Next Year  
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12116 posts, RR: 34
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1739 times:

There is finally some news on the Air France/KLM order for 25 A350-900 aircraft. Alexandre de Juniac, chief executive officer of Air France, expect that the talks on the A350 order will be concluded in the first half of 2013.

Quote:
Airbus is still waiting as Air France negotiates with engine supplier Rolls-Royce Holdings Plc (RR/) over maintenance.

“It’s reasonable to think that the talks on A350s will be concluded in the first half of 2013,” Alexandre de Juniac, chief executive officer of the company’s Air France brand, said today at a briefing.

The French carrier is seeking to win work and preserve jobs at its Air France Industries division, one of a shrinking number of in-house aircraft servicing shops.

You can read the whole story here: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...tract-amid-engine-upkeep-spat.html


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3397 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1742 times:

I wonder if they've paid a small deposit for their place in the queue as they could be slipping backwards be delaying almost 18 months between announcement and firming.

User currently onlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5204 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1743 times:

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 1):
I wonder if they've paid a small deposit for their place in the queue as they could be slipping backwards be delaying almost 18 months between announcement and firming.

I'm sure they did. And Airbus will not risk AF going to Boeing because of available slots.


User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1627 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1741 times:

So will all of these frames go to AF, or also some to KL?


Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2702 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1741 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 3):
So will all of these frames go to AF, or also some to KL?

To both.
AF will get them first though.
.



אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31119 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1741 times:
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Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 1):
I wonder if they've paid a small deposit for their place in the queue as they could be slipping backwards be delaying almost 18 months between announcement and firming.

If we use the Kingfisher MoU as a guide, Airbus would have assigned delivery dates (based on Quarter+Year) for their airframes. AF/KL also would have paid a small (~1%) Initial Predelivery Payment at the time the MoU was signed.


User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 638 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1740 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
There is finally some news on the Air France/KLM order for 25 A350-900 aircraft. Alexandre de Juniac, chief executive officer of Air France, expect that the talks on the A350 order will be concluded in the first half of 2013.

French deputies did their job well, otherwise, no A350 would have been ordered. AF was only interested in the 787 in first place. Considering the abyssal debt AF is facing right now, no 77E replacement was scheduled for a long time. But politics made its own way through this.
Let's hope reliability issues known for the A380 won't impact the A350...



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4802 posts, RR: 40
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1740 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
There is finally some news on the Air France/KLM order for 25 A350-900 aircraft. Alexandre de Juniac, chief executive officer of Air France, expect that the talks on the A350 order will be concluded in the first half of 2013.

That is great to read.  .

Quoting airproxx (Reply 6):
French deputies did their job well, otherwise, no A350 would have been ordered. AF was only interested in the 787 in first place.

Any links to back that statement up? I fly KLM very frequently and have heard stories with quite a different tone from insiders working on the A350-program.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 6):
Let's hope reliability issues known for the A380 won't impact the A350...

What reliability issues? There are virtually non, especially for such a complex new airliner. Now I have seen quite some posts in which you display not being an Airbus fan, but this comes very close to baseless bashing.  .

[Edited 2012-11-16 06:49:34]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31119 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1744 times:
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Quoting EPA001 (Reply 7):
What reliability issues?

Perhaps this?

Quote:
Air France-KLM is seeking compensation from Airbus for service disruptions caused by technical glitches affecting its fleet of A380 superjumbo aircraft, French daily Les Echos reported.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...nce-airbus-a-idUSLNE89T02A20121030


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1083 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1742 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 7):
Quoting airproxx (Reply 6):
French deputies did their job well, otherwise, no A350 would have been ordered. AF was only interested in the 787 in first place.

Any links to back that statement up? I fly KLM very frequently and have heard stories with quite a different tone from insiders working on the A350-program.

There was also this piece a while back regarding the split buy.

“Meanwhile, a French lawmaker described as “indecent” a EUR400,000 golden handshake for Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, the former Air France-KLM chief executive who was fired last year, at a time when the airline’s personnel is threatened with job cuts. He called on Gourgeon to relinquish his claim to the departure bonus.

Bernard Carayon, a deputy of the conservative UMP party, said Gourgeon was fired because he was pushing for Air France to buy aircraft made by Boeing Co (BA) instead of planes assembled in France by Boeing rival Airbus, a unit of European Aeronautic Defense & Space Co NV (EAD.FR). Carayon said he had been able to thwart that attempt by organizing a cross-party lobby of 186 French deputies.”



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineDelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1743 times:

Re: AF had no desire for the 350.

We should be clear: AF has no desire to buy engines they cannot perform third party maintenance on. This isn't about the 350; it's about the Trent.


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1745 times:

Quoting airproxx (Reply 6):
French deputies did their job well, otherwise, no A350 would have been ordered.

A hint of truth in this, but mostly misleading in terms of the final order, I think. There is no doubt there were those in French government who tried to influence the decision in favor of Airbus. What's not clear at all is that this "pressure" had any effect on the outcome.

Quoting Los Echos
As Air France is about to make the biggest order in its history (about 100 long-haul aircrafts), more and more pressure is being put on Air France's, CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, to pick Airbus' A350 over Boeing 787. UMP deputy, Bernard Carayon, initiated a text aimed at pressuring Pierre-Henri Gourgeon to pick Airbus. The text insinuated that this decision would influence shareholders when deciding to re-elect him for another mandate. However, this threat is not credible, since the state only owns 15.7% of Air France's capital and has 3 trustees out of 15, leaving the government with little power to choose Air France's CEO.


Quoting airproxx (Reply 6):
Let's hope reliability issues known for the A380 won't impact the A350...

>>The A380 is a long range airplane, making schedule interrupts more likely and also making them of less consequence than on shorter range aircraft (less consequence to the operator, not the pax).

>>The A380 has many new cabin and airplane systems (and more of them) compared to other aircraft.

>>The A380 has relatively small fleet numbers, making it slower to mature than an airplane with a higher production rate.

These are all factual and all contribute to the A380's lower than expected reliability.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 7):
What reliability issues?

A380 fleet reliability currently sits at 98.1% (industry measure of departure delays >15 min). This is lower than other Airbus and Boeing models. Perhaps most notably, the A380 lags behind the aircraft it is replacing or competing with on many routes (747-400 fleet is at 98.9% and 777 fleet is at 99.4%). To put the numbers into perspective, the average A380 experiences 3x more schedule interrupts than the average 777. In comparison to another new aircraft, the 787 has about 1/3 less schedule interruptions than the A380.

There have been many public airline comments and trade articles published discussing A380 reliability challenges and Airbus' efforts to help address the problems. The major concern today is that A380 schedule reliability (month to month) has been very stable - it has not changed (better or worse) in over 18 months.

Also worth noting: The formula for calculating schedule reliability does not capture downtime for planned maintenance activities, only disruption to scheduled departures. As such, it does not reflect the impact to operators from the wing rib feet cracking issue.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1740 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 11):
These are all factual and all contribute to the A380's lower than expected reliability.

Official statements seem to suggest otherwise.

Airbus

Quote:
Airbus A380

A380 marketing head Richard Carcaillet says the retrofit improvements lifted the fleet's dispatch reliability rate by a percentage point, to 99.3%, from the beginning of 2012.

Singapore Airlines

Quote:
SQ A380

Singapore Airlines (SIA) has defended the reliability of the Airbus A380, despite recent incidents involving two of the airline's superjumbos.

"The A380 has had one of the smoothest introductions to our fleet compared to our previous experience of entry into service of new aircraft," says an SIA spokesman.

Lufthansa and Air France

Quote:
LH&AF A380

Lufthansa has consistently experienced 100% technical dispatch reliability on its Airbus A380s, but Air France is frequently dropping below its 98.5% target. [...] Air France Industries vice-president line maintenance and airframe engineering Herve Page said the carrier is "more or less" at its targeted 98.5% technical dispatch reliability, "sometimes above, but more often below".

However, he adds that technical issues are being resolved and he is confident Air France will reach its 98.5% target "rapidly".

Emirates

Quote:
EK A380

Emirates Airline President Tim Clark told ATW at ITB Berlin that all 15 of the airline's Airbus A380s operated for the first time with 100% technical dispatch reliability last week.

Tangential story: every EK area manager is requesting the A380 and that EK could put the aircraft on daily service to every European point it serves without losing money because demand is so strong and customers still look to fly on the A380 if the option is there.

While the A380 - along with every other airplane - has experienced its fair share of technical issues, characterizing its overall performance as ''unreliable'' is demonstraby fallacious.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1338 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1740 times:

AF really REALLY didn't want to order an a/c which only had RR engines - will be very interesting to see how the AF/RR working relationship resolves itself over the years ahead

Could the A350 finally be RR's break and lead AF to actively choosing them in future or is this a one off?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31119 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 1740 times:
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Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 13):
Could the A350 finally be RR's break and lead AF to actively choosing them in future or is this a one off?

Well it sounds like AF will not firm the order until they are allowed to work on RR engines. So assuming RR does allow them to work on their engines, I would expect AF would consider ordering RR-powered frames in the future (including possibly choosing RR for some or all of their current 787 order).


User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1338 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 1742 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
including possibly choosing RR for some or all of their current 787 order

Now that WOULD be a surprise.

What would be stopping RR from agreeing to AF working on their engines? Do they have agreements with other airlines/maintenance providers which would be compromised by allowing AF to do their own maintenance?


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 1742 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 15):
What would be stopping RR from agreeing to AF working on their engines? Do they have agreements with other airlines/maintenance providers which would be compromised by allowing AF to do their own maintenance?

''Engine suppliers are loath to grant MRO rights to others. Engines are often sold at deep discounts, and in extreme cases, even given to airlines in exchange for the exclusive parts and MRO contracts. This is where the engine makers truly make their profits.''

http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2012...act-stalled-heres-the-way-forward/
MRO-Deal-with-Rolls-Royce-in-2013-15512318/" target="_blank">http://www.4-traders.com/AIR-FRANCE-...with-Rolls-Royce-in-2013-15512318/

"The issue is service and maintenance. We have a solid engine maintenance operation and Rolls has a policy of doing the maintenance itself," Alexandre de Juniac, chief executive of the Franco-Dutch group's French network Air France, told reporters on Tuesday.
Asked how long it would take to resolve the dispute, he said, "In the next few months. We are not in a hurry."

http://news.yahoo.com/air-france-spa...n-dragging-173050073--finance.html

http:// www.ft. com /cms/s/0/daea0e3a-e637-11e1-ac5f-00144feab49a.html#axzz2CPs8uo00 (remove gaps, ft doesn't allow links)

However, Air France-KLM, which is making heavy losses from its airline business, is eager to build its own maintenance and support division – which accounted for about 7 per cent of group sales in 2011 but was the only profitable part of the company in the first six months of this year.
Air France-KLM told the Financial Times that it wanted “to be a player in the market of maintenance for these aircraft and their engines”.
The company’s maintenance activities generated revenues of €1.57bn in the first half of 2012, including €523m coming from services to other airlines. Operating income for the division was €56m, up 14.3 per cent year-on-year.''


..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 1744 times:

The forum messed my last post up. Quote is taken from


..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1338 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1742 times:

Quoting something (Reply 16):

Perfect, thank you.


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1740 times:

Quoting something (Reply 12):
Official statements seem to suggest otherwise.

Actually, there may be no inconsistency between the number I quoted and the 98.5% which seems to be most common number in your sources above. There are a couple of reasons why this might be the case:

1. The 98.1% number I quoted is a 12-month average, and only covers the first half of 2012. It is possible Airbus has provided some recent improvement to the A380 which is not reflected in my number, and which could have resulted in higher reliability since.

2. Airbus' methodology for accounting TDR differs slightly from the industry standard (Houston/READI) accounting method, in that it does not count air turnbacks or diversions originating from a technical cause. Airbus also does not count events where an airplane is replaced at the gate because of a problem with the originally scheduled tail. Although these events are far less common than technical delays at the gate, this omission from Airbus' accounting "hides" about 10% of schedule interrupts. Events such as those listed below are not reflected in Airbus' numbers, and each one, per 1000 scheduled flights, moves the reliability number down by 0.1%.

>>AF276 - Doors
>>EK201 - Electrical
>>EK319 - Flap Asymmetry
>>EK413 - Engine
>>QF1 - Smoke/Fumes
>>QF31 - Engine
>>QF32 - Engine
>>SQ321 - Electrical
>>etc.

Quoting something (Reply 12):
characterizing its overall performance as ''unreliable'' is demonstraby fallacious.

Just to be clear, I have not called the A380 "unreliable". I'm not sure anyone did. Compared to some non-Airbus types, 98.1% would be stellar. However, the A380 is notably less reliable than other aircraft produced by Airbus and Boeing. This remains true regardless of accounting method and it remains true even if the current Houston/READI number is 98.5%, which it may well be.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12635 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1742 times:
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Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 15):
Now that WOULD be a surprise.

Not really.   

Giving RR their 787 business is the carrot that AF is dangling. It's worth remembering that AF has yet to announce their engine choice for the 787 order.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6938 posts, RR: 63
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1740 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 20):
Giving RR their 787 business is the carrot that AF is dangling. It's worth remembering that AF has yet to announce their engine choice for the 787 order.

E X A C T L Y  


User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10111 posts, RR: 97
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1739 times:
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Quoting CM (Reply 19):
I have not called the A380 "unreliable".
Quoting CM (Reply 19):
However, the A380 is notably less reliable than other aircraft produced by Airbus and Boeing

I presume there's a way somewhere that this might be considered "not calling the A380 unreliable"
I don't have any issue with the reasoning behind your comments though

Quoting CM (Reply 11):
These are all factual and all contribute to the A380's lower than expected reliability.

Agree.
The odd thing is that the A380 has been in service for a long time, and yet is still very early in the production ramp up cycle.
Frustrating.

Quoting CM (Reply 11):
In comparison to another new aircraft, the 787 has about 1/3 less schedule interruptions than the A380.

The A380 had equally stellar reliability in its early career as well. New frames tend to get "cuddled" a bit on entry into service.

Rgds


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1737 times:

Quoting astuteman (Reply 22):
The A380 had equally stellar reliability in its early career as well. New frames tend to get "cuddled" a bit on entry into service.

So true. The 787 has been heavily supported by large teams from Boeing and 787 suppliers installed at each new operator. That support is typically planned for the first 90 days at an operator, after which it begins to taper off. The A380 intro at SIA was a good model and Boeing studied it closely. The real test comes when the training wheels are off.


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