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Is Delta Sending The 744 To SYD?  
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2125 times:
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In today's press release touting the completion of the Delta 747-400 fleet upgrades (flat-beds, nose-to-tail AVOD, etc), I caught this little bit from Glenn Hauenstein:

"....The 747 is an iconic aircraft and with this nose-to-tail modification complete, it will serve as the crown jewel of our fleet taking our customers everywhere they want to go – from Australia, Asia, the Middle East and back again....."

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1775

As many of you probably know, DL currently sends its 744s to Asia (NRT, NGO, MNL) and the Middle East (TLV) only.

All schedules still show the 77L operating LAX-SYD into the forseeable future though.

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

Quoting panamair (Thread starter):

My guess is that it was just either added in there for dramatic effect or foreshadowing od times to come.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2134 times:

Wouldn't surprise me to see it on LAX-SYD for S13. Don't forget, the 777s are up for PSVs as well. Not the 77Ls that do LAX-SYD but those will be affected too, schedule wise, because of the checks. Not saying that's the reason but another point to think about.

Who knows. Maybe it was a mistake in the sense that he was just motoring off sexy destinations but I doubt it. A man like Glen in his capacity at DL doesn't make those sort of slips. Kind of like when RA outright said they will be trying SEA-LHR. That one was surprising.

[Edited 2012-11-15 09:12:09]


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 533 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2136 times:
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I believe this is finally the confirmation of the long running rumor that LAX-SYD will go 747-400. Does anybody know how this route is performing for them and will an up gauge from 777 to 747 be way to many seats on the route for them? The 747 only has 5J and 6Y+ seats more then the 777 in DL configuration but has 92 regular Y seats more, I hope they don't have to dump fares to much in order to fill 103 extra seats per flight.

User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7565 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2132 times:

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 3):
I believe this is finally the confirmation of the long running rumor that LAX-SYD will go 747-400.

The quote is vague in context and doesn't say anything specific. It very well could mean they are planning to put the 744 on it in the future, but it also could just an inclusive list of international regions.

As of today, the future schedule all the way out is still loaded as a 77L. Confirmation would be when they actually load a 744 in the schedule.


User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 533 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2137 times:
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Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):

You are absolutely correct. It's more of my wishful thinking. I'm planning another trip down under next year to visit family and would like to fly the 747, flew the 77L last year. I just wish they would re-time the LAX to TPA flight back to 10am as it would provide the perfect connection timing for the SYD return flight to LAX.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25198 posts, RR: 48
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2147 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 2):
Wouldn't surprise me to see it on LAX-SYD for S13.

The only problem is that is not the peak demand time for Australia.

Peak travel period is the northern winter especially December - February, so using a 744 would be not very logical during S13.

Also shifting to a 744 would kill the thriving southbound cargo business DL manages on the route using the 777.


p.s. - Below are the DL load factors at SYD for last 12-months.

Sep11 - 75.7%
Oct11 - 81.8%
Nov11 - 75.8%
Dec11 - 82.2%
Jan12 - 88.3%
Feb12 - 81.7%
Mar12 - 67.9%
Apr12 - 74.6%
May12 - 70.4%
Jun12 - 75.3%
Jul12 - 81.2%
Aug12 - 70.0%

[Edited 2012-11-15 12:23:50]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineB4REAL From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2637 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

Note that DL (well, NW at the time) removed the fuel tanks in the rear horizontal stabilizers of the 744 fleet, slightly reducing their range. Not sure if this will impact their ability to do this type of route.


B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5775 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2140 times:

Quoting panamair (Thread starter):
As many of you probably know, DL currently sends its 744s to Asia (NRT, NGO, MNL) and the Middle East (TLV) only.

How can it be, that DL has 16 747's and only sends them to four foreign cities!?!?!?


User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7565 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2139 times:

DTW-NRT
JFK-NRT
ATL-NRT
HNL-NRT
SEA-NRT (Summer 2013)

DTW-NGO

JFK-TLV

NGO-MNL
NRT-MNL

There is excess slack in the fleet, and even more so since mods have been underway.

One aircraft has been doing a significant amount of military charters over the past month, and will be utilized on some domestic flying (DTW-LAX, ATL-LAX) over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend.


User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2795 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 2139 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
p.s. - Below are the DL load factors at SYD for last 12-months.

Just out of curiosity, where do you get those numbers? Some of them are kinda accurate and some of them are not accurate (when compared with company data).


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3626 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

DL may very well upgauge to the 744, but that vague, flowery statement is hardly indicative of that.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 2):
A man like Glen in his capacity at DL doesn't make those sort of slips.

I highly doubt a man like Glen, in charge of one of the largest airlines in the world, has the time to review every bit of marketing drivel that comes out of a company the size of DL.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
How can it be, that DL has 16 747's and only sends them to four foreign cities!?!?!?

And how many different cities does DL serve NRT from alone? Six? Seven?

Hell, AA has 47 sum odd 777s and serves a relative handful of cities with those as well.

LHR, NRT, Shanghai, Beijing, Madrid, Seoul, Sao Paulo, Rio, and?



PHX based
User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2139 times:

There has been considerable specualtion that VA and DL are working to shuffle their fleets around a bit so that MEL-LAX can become daily. Currently it is only 3 times weekly using VA 77Ws which are load restricted westbound. A DL 77L would be better suited to the route and releasing the DL 77L currently doing SYD-LAX would achieve this.


717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2143 times:

Love this thread and hoping to see the beautiful 744's flying to more cities now that the mods are done. Hope someone can keep us looped about what new pairs are on the horizon

User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2139 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Peak travel period is the northern winter especially December - February, so using a 744 would be not very logical during S13.

Didn't know that. Thanks.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 11):
I highly doubt a man like Glen, in charge of one of the largest airlines in the world, has the time to review every bit of marketing drivel that comes out of a company the size of DL.

Okay...

In other news, SEA-HND was approved.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10398 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2135 times:

I think many on here are guilty of overthinking what Glen's statement meant. He mentioned the "fleet" and, in turn mentioned that it (the fleet) could carry customers to Africa, the Middle East and Asia. He was referring to the FLEET.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

If LAX-SYD is upguaged to a 744, does this mean that the ATL-LAX leg that brings the 77L to LAX from ATL will also switch to a 744? Or would that leg possibly be downgauged to a 763 (assuming DL doesn't regularly have high load factors on that flight due to the extra capacity compared to a 763) since DL wouldn't need that 77L in LAX anymore?

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10398 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2134 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 15):
I think many on here are guilty of overthinking what Glen's statement meant. He mentioned the "fleet" and, in turn mentioned that it (the fleet) could carry customers to Africa, the Middle East and Asia. He was referring to the FLEET.

Case in point:

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 16):
If LAX-SYD is upguaged to a 744, does this mean that the ATL-LAX leg that brings the 77L to LAX from ATL will also switch to a 744? Or would that leg possibly be downgauged to a 763 (assuming DL doesn't regularly have high load factors on that flight due to the extra capacity compared to a 763) since DL wouldn't need that 77L in LAX anymore?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7565 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2136 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 15):
He was referring to the FLEET.

Thats how I interpret the quote at first glance.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 16):
If LAX-SYD is upguaged to a 744, does this mean that the ATL-LAX leg that brings the 77L to LAX from ATL will also switch to a 744? Or would that leg possibly be downgauged to a 763 (assuming DL doesn't regularly have high load factors on that flight due to the extra capacity compared to a 763) since DL wouldn't need that 77L in LAX anymore?

It depends.... There are a few ways they could route aircraft (in theory)

NRT-LAX & NRT-SYD are both flown with 77L
NRT-HND is flown with an A332

If LAX-SYD was flown with a 744 they would need to connect the aircraft back to the rest of the network - either ATL, DTW, or NRT.


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3205 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2136 times:

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 7):

Note that DL (well, NW at the time) removed the fuel tanks in the rear horizontal stabilizers of the 744 fleet, slightly reducing their range. Not sure if this will impact their ability to do this type of route.

Absolutely incorrect.

The 747-451's at DL routinely fly with fuel in the stab, almost every 13+ hour flight they do.


User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2133 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18):

"NRT-LAX & NRT-SYD are both flown with 77L
NRT-HND is flown with an a332"

LOL I assume you meant LAX-SYD and LAX-HND? Don't mean to nitpick, but just to avoid confusion.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25198 posts, RR: 48
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2134 times:

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 10):
Just out of curiosity, where do you get those numbers? Some of them are kinda accurate and some of them are not accurate (when compared with company data).

DOT T-100s and Australia Dept of Infrastructure & Transport.

Loads would be based on round trip and also I believe include things like non-revs.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2970 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2132 times:

Awesome as it would be, I'm not confident it's going to happen. I'm sure there are all sorts of internal discussions where SYD and the 744 gets brought up, but an airline with load figures in the 80's at peak season shouldn't be adding capacity to such a congested route.

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 10):
Just out of curiosity, where do you get those numbers?

The excel spreadsheet at this page, I imagine.

These are the figures that the government requires the airlines to give them, so it's safe to assume that they are pretty accurate.

Quoting PSUDTWSCE (Reply 18):
If LAX-SYD was flown with a 744 they would need to connect the aircraft back to the rest of the network - either ATL, DTW, or NRT.

The existing SYD-LAX continue onto ATL with the same aircraft -- I imagine they would do the same thing with a 744.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2178 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2131 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 11):
And how many different cities does DL serve NRT from alone? Six? Seven?

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):

DTW-NRT
JFK-NRT
ATL-NRT
HNL-NRT
SEA-NRT (Summer 2013)

Add MSP, LAX, SFO and PDX to these 5 cities above. MSP used to be served by a 744, now by a 77L. LAX is 77L currently, SFO and PDX is 767.
If including US territories, DL also has multiple dailies to GUM and SPN out of NRT (and a few other major Asian airports).

NRT is a hub, so US mainland-NRT is a hub-to-hub routing for the most part, and hub to point for SFO, PDX (and HNL, a hub-to-point route mainly targeted at Asian vacationers who go say aloha to the Hawaiian islands.)

Makes for 8 cities on the mainland, 9 in the 50 states, and 11 including Western Pacific territories, plus whichever other city I may have forgotten about. Yes NRT is a massive hub for DL.

Add to that a large number of Asian destinations served from NRT, but DL has no 5th freedom rights on these routes, they can only carry passengers connecting to/from a flight to one of these 11 US cities.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2887 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2132 times:
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I find it very interesting that Delta promotes the 747 so much in advertising etc. Before the merger Delta was never committed to being a 747 airline. Now that they have 16 it seems to be a source of pride for them...conversely, United has always been a heavy user of 747's and while today they are down to just 23 of them, they are often the source of grief for United. Funny that! (and refitted with a great First class cabin in the nose, it's one of United's better rides- not the back sadly)


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4220 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2424 times:

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 3):
I believe this is finally the confirmation of the long running rumor that LAX-SYD will go 747-400. Does anybody know how this route is performing for them and will an up gauge from 777 to 747 be way to many seats on the route for them? The 747 only has 5J and 6Y+ seats more then the 777 in DL configuration but has 92 regular Y seats more, I hope they don't have to dump fares to much in order to fill 103 extra seats per flight.

They won't be utilizing the 744 on the LAX-SYD in the foreseeable future. I deffinatly hope not, I much prefer the 77L in business than the 744, unless I can get seat 1A.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinedavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2408 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 24):
Before the merger Delta was never committed to being a 747 airline. Now that they have 16 it seems to be a source of pride for them...

I think this has to do with the icon nature of the 747 in general. I do not see DL ordering either the 748 or A380. As the 744s age out of the fleet, I would expect DL to make the 777 the "icon" aircraft of the fleet.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 533 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2585 times:
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Quoting brilondon (Reply 25):
I much prefer the 77L in business than the 744, unless I can get seat 1A.

The 77L and 747 in DL fleet have almost the exact same J seat. Is it that you prefer the inward facing J seats on the 777 compared to the outward facing seats on the 747?


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2583 times:
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Quoting brilondon (Reply 25):
I much prefer the 77L in business than the 744, unless I can get seat 1A.

The refurbished 744 Business seat is better in most ways than the 77L seat - facing towards the window, longer bed when fully reclined, center seats that allow pax to face each other, and the AVOD selection I believe is also greater than on the 777 (300+ movies, for example, versus 100+)


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4220 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 27):

The 77L and 747 in DL fleet have almost the exact same J seat. Is it that you prefer the inward facing J seats on the 777 compared to the outward facing seats on the 747?

Yes.

Quoting panamair (Reply 28):


The refurbished 744 Business seat is better in most ways than the 77L seat - facing towards the window, longer bed when fully reclined, center seats that allow pax to face each other, and the AVOD selection I believe is also greater than on the 777 (300+ movies, for example, versus 100+)

I am confused. You said that the AVOD selection is greater on the 777 than on the 747, but you were talking about the 77L seat being not as good as the 747, so I have to choose between more movies that I don't want to watch.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2529 times:
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Quoting brilondon (Reply 29):
You said that the AVOD selection is greater on the 777 than on the 747, but you were talking about the 77L seat being not as good as the 747,

I said:

Quoting panamair (Reply 28):
and the AVOD selection I believe is also greater than on the 777 (300+ movies, for example, versus 100+)

I said the AVOD selection is greater THAN on the 777...maybe you missed the "than"?


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4220 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 30):


Quoting brilondon (Reply 29):
You said that the AVOD selection is greater on the 777 than on the 747, but you were talking about the 77L seat being not as good as the 747,

I said:

Quoting panamair (Reply 28):
and the AVOD selection I believe is also greater than on the 777 (300+ movies, for example, versus 100+)

I said the AVOD selection is greater THAN on the 777...maybe you missed the "than"?

I apologize, I am working on a 10 hour time change today and have just awoken from only 3 hours sleep. I now see what you are talking about. I still prefer the seating in the 777.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2532 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 23):
Add to that a large number of Asian destinations served from NRT, but DL has no 5th freedom rights on these routes, they can only carry passengers connecting to/from a flight to one of these 11 US cities.

Which ones don't have 5th freedom ? I'd imagine only the Japanese domestic ones ?


User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1659 posts, RR: 3
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2534 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
p.s. - Below are the DL load factors at SYD for last 12-months.

Ouch, so in otherwords: underwhelming. Especially with only 269 seats on the 77L.


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 33):
Ouch, so in otherwords: underwhelming.

Yeah, I too would call that underwhelming. Mind you, we don't know much about what they're generating on the cargo side to compensate. My guess is that it's likely breaking even and that in itself is a good sign.


User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 330 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 23):
MSP used to be served by a 744, now by a 77L.

That will be changing. Expect to see MSP-NRT served with a 747 next year. And from a friend that works with DL. The SYD-LAX route, (not RT) consistently has a high load factor.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5320 posts, RR: 11
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 12):
There has been considerable specualtion that VA and DL are working to shuffle their fleets around a bit so that MEL-LAX can become daily. Currently it is only 3 times weekly using VA 77Ws which are load restricted westbound. A DL 77L would be better suited to the route and releasing the DL 77L currently doing SYD-LAX would achieve this.

Thats what i've heard/read in the past. With SYD-LAX going 744 for DL and the freed 77Ls going to MEL-LAX with VAs freed 77Ws going to either BNE-LAX or AUH. It seems plasible to me, particularly now that DL have upgraded the 744s.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9353 posts, RR: 14
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2493 times:

Quoting panamair (Thread starter):

Wont happen for S13. No word yet for W13.

but Delta's goal number one is getting the 47 on ATL-GRU.

Quoting mayor (Reply 15):

Then his wording is terrible.
1) the Delta fleet hits a heck of a lot more than the three areas listed.
2) "it will serve as the crown jewel of our fleet taking our customers everywhere they want to go – from Australia, Asia, the Middle East and back again....." I really don't get how anyone gets the Delta fleet out of that. He is clearly talking about the 747(or like i said....his English is scary poor)

*note not saying it matters.....*

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 16):

LAX-NRT could go 747 and that would be the likely thing.

Quoting mayor (Reply 17):

uh....I don't get why thats a point. Its not rocket science to get a 747 to LAX for the SYD flight...

Quoting qf002 (Reply 22):
I imagine they would do the same thing with a 744.

not likely.



yep.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25198 posts, RR: 48
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2454 times:

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 34):
Mind you, we don't know much about what they're generating on the cargo side to compensate.

Cargo is public info also.

Without digging up the numbers month by month, DL does so so also.

For example for the year of 2011 they averaged about 9.3tons per flight LAX-SYD and 3.7tons on return

As comparison United did much worse from the US with mere couple tons per flight (the 744 is weight restricted) but managed almost 13 tons on the SYD to US return leg.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineB4REAL From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2637 posts, RR: 5
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 19):
The 747-451's at DL routinely fly with fuel in the stab, almost every 13+ hour flight they do.

Thanks for the clarification - I can't quite find the original post, but someone on this forum "sounded legit" in telling me that before. It also made sense to me as I don't think DL has the 744 on any route > 7,000 miles.



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlinemplsjefe From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2408 times:
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Quoting cessna2 (Reply 35):


Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 23):
MSP used to be served by a 744, now by a 77L.

That will be changing. Expect to see MSP-NRT served with a 747 next year. And from a friend that works with DL. The SYD-LAX route, (not RT) consistently has a high load factor.

Getting our 744 service back would be great! Fingers crossed. The 77L is nice, but nothing beats the 744!


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3205 posts, RR: 13
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2364 times:

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 40):
Thanks for the clarification - I can't quite find the original post, but someone on this forum "sounded legit" in telling me that before. It also made sense to me as I don't think DL has the 744 on any route > 7,000 miles.

No problemo.

There was a brief period in the early 2000's where NW did, indeed, fly without fuel in the stab of any 744's but this was due to AD compliance and fuel tank inspections (think TWA 800). Once the AD's were resolved, they've been able to fly with fuel in the stabs ever since.

As for flying distances in excess of 7000 miles, the 744 has operated DTW-PVG (7137mi) on and off since SOC. Really just depends on the particular schedule.


User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2366 times:

NW did operate "best flight" between LAX and SYD with dry tails. While the additional range was minimal, there were often restrictions. Several of my non-rev friends didn't get on what they thought were okay flights. My friends at DL say they are more comfortable with the 777 on the route right now.


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3205 posts, RR: 13
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2347 times:

Quoting FI642 (Reply 43):
While the additional range was minimal, there were often restrictions.

The stab tank holds over 22,000# of gas. Not exactly "minimal".


User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2322 times:

The additional range is 350 miles. Given the overall range, it really isn't much.


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlinetymnbalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 948 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2293 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 43):
The stab tank holds over 22,000# of gas. Not exactly "minimal".

In my estimation it's very minimal. An additional 4.5% or so?

From Boeing.com:
The 747-400 carries 3,300 gallons (12,490 L) of fuel in the horizontal (tail) stabilizer, allowing it to fly an additional 350 nautical miles.

Source:http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/pf/pf_facts.html



Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3205 posts, RR: 13
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2282 times:

Quoting FI642 (Reply 44):
The additional range is 350 miles. Given the overall range, it really isn't much.

Considering that stab fuel can frequently mean the difference between being able to get the plane somewhere nonstop with a destination alternate or short releasing it, it makes all the difference.

Not everything is quite so simplistic as straight range figures.


User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2264 times:

Having done weight and balance on the -400, sometimes tail fuel is not always able to be calculated into the equation. Depending on the load and payload distribution there are times it cannot be used. Range figure are always best case scenarios. In my experience, better to stop for fuel if need be, than suffer a fuel emergency.


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlinetymnbalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 948 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2264 times:

Are there any routes (pax or cargo) where the 744 is the appropriate aircraft and the addition of the 350nm means the difference between non-stop and one-stop?


Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

Negligible additional range way my initial point. Oddly enough, I never sent a 744BCF to ANC, always to the sandbox.

Quoting tymnbalewne (Reply 50):

I too am unaware of any routes that require this. I have sent a message to both someone at DL and UA to see if there are any routes that do. Lets see if they get back to me.



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

Okay, my friend from UA just got back to me. Contingency fuel only. Or as he says "pilot pacifier". Lets see what my DL friend has to say. BTW, my friend is former CO. They said normally cargo is bumped to allow non stop flying.

Seeing EWR-HKG is a 777, it is chalk and cheese, as my friends from the Caribbean would say.

All in fun here...



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlinetymnbalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 948 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2198 times:

Quoting FI642 (Reply 50):
Okay, my friend from UA just got back to me. Contingency fuel only. Or as he says "pilot pacifier". Lets see what my DL friend has to say. BTW, my friend is former CO. They said normally cargo is bumped to allow non stop flying.

Thanks for this! I thought I saw a opposing response from Transpac787?

It almost seems that the tail-tank was an option that looked good in paper but in reality didn't add much to the aircraft's performance or the operating airlines' requirements.

Was the tail-tank ever in regular use for the 744's? If so, was it improvement in engine technology that made the need for tail-tank fuel obsolete?



Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2195 times:

Those along with several of my remarks have disappeared. Odd, I was enjoying this!

Quoting tymnbalewne (Reply 51):
Thanks for this! I thought I saw a opposing response from Transpac787?



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