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AI 777s To Go All Economy After Sale Fails!  
User currently offlinegauravpai From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5883 times:

Hi all,

AirIndia was trying to sell 5 of their 777 aircraft and as they failed to receive bids for them have now changed apparent strategy

Their J cabins are being totally removed and a high density all economy 777 is planned, they will be used exclusively on high traffic Gulf routes.

Interesting way of getting profits up!

Also leads to another question, are there any other 777 mainline carriers in an all economy layout?

Cheers

Dr Gaurav Pai

Source. NDTV India

67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinegauravpai From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5917 times:

Here's the official article from Ndtv , was trying to find it earlier

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ai...me-boeing-777-planes-source-293116

Cheers


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10763 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5918 times:

Seems the 77L faces the same fate as the A345. Pretty, but uneconomical, they are very hard to sell these days.Its at least two years now AI is trying to offload these planes, first for lease, than for sale.
So now they end up on the guest worker shuttle to the Emirates, plus the Hadj I would add. Will that work or will they just be run-down faster that way?


User currently offlinegauravpai From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5907 times:

Quoting na (Reply 2):

Yeah agree with the first line.

It should work given that the gulf flights are almost always packed to the rafters,hell on a certain flight to dxb even the jumps seat was used by a pax   

Let's hope this works for them at least ,
How dense would an all economy 777 be in terms of pax numbers?

Cheers


User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5904 times:

Quoting na (Reply 2):

Well, if things go according to plan (ULH which was a hype 10 years ago, but proved to be less popular as expected), find an alternative. So, if costs are higher than other aircraft, use it on routes that yield more. SQ used it as an all J luxury long distance bus, EK used it on destinations people were prepared to pay a premium anyway, like Zurich or SEZ. Which pleases me mightily, I will go to SEZ in February, which means both EK's A380 and A345!   

Quoting gauravpai (Reply 3):
How dense would an all economy 777 be in terms of pax numbers?

I believe it is certified for a maximum of 440 passengers...   



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlinegdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 655 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5898 times:

Quoting gauravpai (Thread starter):
AirIndia was trying to sell 5 of their 777 aircraft and as they failed to receive bids for them

EK had no interest?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31110 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5914 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 2):
Seems the 77L faces the same fate as the A345. Pretty, but uneconomical, they are very hard to sell these days.

The 777-200LR is economical.

The reasons AI could not find a buyer is because their configuration is wrong for anyone but EK, so any potential customer would have to rip the entire cabin out and reconfigure it, which would be quite expensive. Add to that Air India wanting above market value pricing and they were not going to find any interested buyers.

Air India never should have had a First Class cabin and Business Class should have been 14 or 21 seats and then everything aft of Door 2 should have been Economy (probably at 10-abreast).


User currently onlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5901 times:

It doesn't have to be intl for these refitted 77Ls, they can always, I mean ALWAYS fly these on top domestic routes like DEL-BOM, DEL-MAA, etc.


If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5910 times:

Quoting gauravpai (Thread starter):
Their J cabins are being totally removed and a high density all economy 777 is planned, they will be used exclusively on high traffic Gulf routes.

440 pax 3-4-3 all Y on a 77L for 3 hour flights to Dubai ? What a waste of the airframe. They could do the same with a 777-200A.


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5902 times:

I've flown one of those and remember the economy class seats being harder than in some buses + 10 abreast, not a pleasant experience under any circumstances, despite the plane being only 40% full (DEL-HKG). Catering was awful.

User currently onlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2640 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5908 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 2):
Seems the 77L faces the same fate as the A345. Pretty, but uneconomical

  

The 777-200LR is not uneconomical. The reason that they've been hard to move isn't because of the aircraft itself. Everybody that wants a 777-200LR already has one. Besides, them being ex-AI aircraft might be another factor.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
The 777-200LR is economical.

The reasons AI could not find a buyer is because their configuration is wrong for anyone but EK, so any potential customer would have to rip the entire cabin out and reconfigure it, which would be quite expensive. Add to that Air India wanting above market value pricing and they were not going to find any interested buyers.

Didn't know that AI were wanting above market price for them, but that'd be another reason why they're finding them impossible to sell.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10763 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5898 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 10):
The 777-200LR is not uneconomical.

AI surely says otherwise. And for anything other than the increasingly limited niche it was built for its an uneconomical plane for sure.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 10):
The reason that they've been hard to move isn't because of the aircraft itself. Everybody that wants a 777-200LR already has one.

Like the A345, as I said.


User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2473 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5899 times:

Quoting na (Reply 11):

AI surely says otherwise. And for anything other than the increasingly limited niche it was built for its an uneconomical plane for sure.

Its is economical, AI just dont know how to use them properly... I mean, who else complains about their 77Ls being uneconomical?

Quoting na (Reply 11):
Like the A345, as I said.

Well the 77L has sold more than the A345, plus its the platform used on the 777F which has a good amount of orders (127 currently according to the boeing website), which in my opinion, is pretty good for an "uneconomical aircraft".



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3217 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5898 times:

Quoting na (Reply 11):
AI surely says otherwise. And for anything other than the increasingly limited niche it was built for its an uneconomical plane for sure.

Well maintenance record might have been an issue but anybody with GE powered 777s, especially anybody with 77W's shouldn't have had any issues with them. Delta for example does well out of Sydney with the type not because the extra range is needed but because it enables more cargo to be uploaded and i believe it is the same in shanghai.

United could use this bird well out of EWR to Asia. Obviously EK could have. Turkish might have found a fit for it. I don't think Air France or KLM have any routes that require the range but if the price was right it would fit straight in. But that is probably your real problem. If the price is right. The type's real advantage today now that ULH flights aren't economic, is the ability to uplift huge amounts of freight and not be weight restricted. This is why it works for Delta. Often this freight can be largely in one direction making dedicated freight aircraft uneconomical. Or, as in the case of LAX-SYD the aircraft is at the range envelope (think 744) so cargo is getting left behind for fuel to be uploaded. The problem is for flights up to about 12 or 13 hrs the 772ER can do the same thing just fine. It's just those few 14 hr type flights that are the issue, and not too many carriers have those.

They need to just cut their losses.


User currently onlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2640 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5893 times:
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Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 12):
Its is economical, AI just dont know how to use them properly... I mean, who else complains about their 77Ls being uneconomical?

     

A bad tradesman blames his tools. AI didn't know how to make money using the 777-200LR, so they blamed the aircraft. Perhaps they should never have ordered them in the first place.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5897 times:
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Quoting gauravpai (Thread starter):
Also leads to another question, are there any other 777 mainline carriers in an all economy layout?

In 2005, I flew on an ANA 773 in all economy between Naha and Tokyo! LOTS of seats!

135Mech


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3217 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5891 times:

Quoting 135mech (Reply 15):
In 2005, I flew on an ANA 773 in all economy between Naha and Tokyo! LOTS of seats!

yes but that is the lowest gross weight version and it was selected exactly for that reason, capacity. In the AI case, they should have got the 77A if this was the game they wanted to play. Or better still the 333. lets be honest. AI is a bit of a basket case.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31110 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5896 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 11):
AI surely says otherwise.

The 777-200LR was uneconomical for AI, but that was because AI configured them improperly with a significant premium cabin and failed to generate the proper return from that configuration by giving away most of the premium seats.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10763 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5897 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
A bad tradesman blames his tools. AI didn't know how to make money using the 777-200LR, so they blamed the aircraft.

I fully agree with you there.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
Perhaps they should never have ordered them in the first place.

Absolutely. The 772ER or A330-300E would have surely worked better for them.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 12):
Well the 77L has sold more than the A345, plus its the platform used on the 777F which has a good amount of orders (127 currently according to the boeing website), which in my opinion, is pretty good for an "uneconomical aircraft".

Its totally wrong to include the freighter in this discussion.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 12):
Its is economical, AI just dont know how to use them properly

I didnt say anything else, so no reason for a reply insinuating something what I didnt say. I dont deny the 77L (like the A345 on its slightly shorter and even smaller niche) is fine on the routes it was built for. See my post above. But if those routes are slashed, its an uneconomical plane. Not only for AI.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 8):
440 pax 3-4-3 all Y on a 77L for 3 hour flights to Dubai ? What a waste of the airframe. They could do the same with a 777-200A.

Yes, and 3-4-3 on a 777, how uncomfortable even compared to an old SV or PIA 743 flying similar routes.


User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5897 times:
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Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
Quoting 135mech (Reply 15):
In 2005, I flew on an ANA 773 in all economy between Naha and Tokyo! LOTS of seats!


yes but that is the lowest gross weight version and it was selected exactly for that reason, capacity. In the AI case, they should have got the 77A if this was the game they wanted to play. Or better still the 333. lets be honest. AI is a bit of a basket case.

Yes, but I was simply responding to that part of the original post. ANA and JAL both loved their large domestic configurations for a very long time, hence the 744D's for both companies. LOVED seeing 744's and 772's and 773's repeatedly flying in and out of Naha!

I completely agree about AI, they love the "point fingers and blame everyone else" and whine that they can't get what they wanted.

135Mech


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31110 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5897 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 18):
Absolutely. The 772ER or A330-300E would have surely worked better for them.

A 777-200ER with the same configuration as the 777-200LR would have worked out even worse. The 777-200LR's aerodynamic and engine tweaks make it more efficient at missions beyond 2000nm than the 777-200ER.

As for the A330-300, it would likely have been a nightmare in the Air India configuration. The 8 First Class and 35 Business Class seats would have taken up a significant portion of the cabin and with the bulk of those seats being given away and not sold, the significantly smaller Economy Class cabin probably could not have hoped to generate the income necessary to cover the trip costs.

Plus, depending on the mission, the A330-300 might not have had the range to even operate it.


User currently onlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2640 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5899 times:
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Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 13):
The type's real advantage today now that ULH flights aren't economic, is the ability to uplift huge amounts of freight and not be weight restricted.

  

The 777-200LR is much, much more than a one trick pony.

Quoting na (Reply 18):
I didnt say anything else, so no reason for a reply insinuating something what I didnt say.

Yes, you did. You said,

Quoting na (Reply 11):
its an uneconomical plane for sure.

and that is what I take issue with, as it's clearly not. The only problem with AI's 777-200LRs is that AI doesn't know how to use them properly to maximise its advantage. The fact that they're now planning to use a high density configuration to use on short/medium haul routes is further evidence of their mismanagement. Unless they intend to stuff the belly full of cargo, using the 777-200LR on short missions is a staggering decision.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5896 times:

Quoting na (Reply 11):
AI surely says otherwise. And for anything other than the increasingly limited niche it was built for its an uneconomical plane for sure.
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
In the AI case, they should have got the 77A if this was the game they wanted to play.

It wasn't all that long ago that AI was complaining about 77A's being "gas guzzlers."

Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So. (by globalflyer777 Aug 21 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):

A bad tradesman blames his tools.

  



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31110 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5893 times:
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Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 22):
It wasn't all that long ago that AI was complaining about 77A's being "gas guzzlers."

No, they were complaining the 777-200LR were "gas guzzlers". And they do indeed drink deep.

Which is why you need to configure them properly...


User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2473 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5892 times:

Quoting na (Reply 18):

Its totally wrong to include the freighter in this discussion.

Fine, not that its much different other than the obvious...

Quoting na (Reply 18):
But if those routes are slashed, its an uneconomical plane. Not only for AI.

Well, how many of those routes were "slashed" because of the 77L by other airlines? As far as I know AI is the only airline who's complaining about the 77L.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 21):
The only problem with AI's 777-200LRs is that AI doesn't know how to use them properly to maximise its advantage. The fact that they're now planning to use a high density configuration to use on short/medium haul routes is further evidence of their mismanagement.

     



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
25 na : Please stop insinuating and quoting only half of what I said. I said:
26 Stitch : How many 777-200LR airframes are actually flying 14,000km or greater stage lengths - which is the "niche" it was built for. If the answer is less than
27 gdg9 : Too right!
28 MountainFlyer : My bad! Thanks for pointing that out. For some reason I saw "777-200" before and thought it was referring to the 77A.
29 RWA380 : The only market AI has cornered, is the whine market. AI has had a myriad of complaints about their aircraft, the threads are littered throughout A.n
30 AT : Talking of Air India's woes about the 77L, how is neighboring PIA fairing with its 77Ls ? How are they being utilized and do they have similar complai
31 Stitch : I don't recall any complaints. PK's 777-200LRs are configured with 35 Business Class (same as AI) and 215 Economy (20 more than AI). They also have a
32 brilondon : AI is not the best in terms of management and that is the root problem at AI. How would the 772ER be any better economically speaking than having the
33 Ronaldo747 : Don't want to be rude, but I think nobody want these 77L because they are AI frames. Their financial problems and other issues may raise doubts about
34 Stitch : I'm pretty sure our members with ties / contacts with the Indian Aviation Industry have stated that the maintenance records for the planes are comple
35 AT : Since we are discussing the quality of AI's maintenance and whether that would be a factor contributing to the lack of interest in the 77Ls, what sort
36 Stitch : Delivered between 2007 and 2009 (though the 2007 birds sat at PAE for many, many months prior to actually being delivered).
37 XT6Wagon : No. The 772LR is far superior to the 772ER in operating economics. It povides a massive increase in potential payload over almost any route you would
38 Post contains images ElPistolero : For some reason, AI = bad maintenance for a certain set of posters here (largely from a small section of Commonwealth countries - ironically, not inc
39 Post contains images JOYA380B747 : How could AI ever make money out of the 77Ls when they'd have Govt officials and the like having free seats on the premium cabins all the time. I'm su
40 HAWK21M : Ideal time to start Air Kerala.....
41 scbriml : That's hardly a ringing endorsement with a combined sales total of less than 90! Both are very much niche planes.
42 777ER : Normally another buyer will rip out the interior and install their own interior if its different anyway so thats not really an issue for a buyer. Its
43 Stitch : The 777-200LR's low sales are, IMO, due more to the fact that by the time it entered service, mostly everyone who wanted a long-haul 300-seat twin al
44 JOYA380B747 : Not every airline is well-endowed to pay to replace the entire interior. I remember Arik Air using KF 345s with unchanged interiors.
45 btblue : If AI are saying the aircraft are not profitable why on earth did they buy them in the first place?
46 Stitch : It has been said because Indian government bureaucrats and officials could indirectly make money off the deal.[Edited 2012-11-20 09:51:11]
47 DocLightning : Cutting losses, anyway. Fact of the matter is that other carriers can and still do fly even 777-200A's profitably. The airplane is not the problem. I
48 Post contains images lightsaber : I believed they received interest, just not at rates they would consider. With EK received numbers of high MTOW 77Ws that will free up North American
49 DocLightning : Not necessarily. AI needs to decide if replacing all the seats in the 777's is cost-effective vs. just pulling out F class and replacing it with more
50 Deltal1011man : So then your saying the 777-200 family is uneconomical. As Stitch said.... The reason why you haven't seen may 777-200LR orders are 1) the economy su
51 zeke : The 77-200ER would have cost the at least 100 million less to buy, and even cheaper to lease, the cost of finance is not free.
52 Post contains images lightsaber : In my opinion, due to AI's typical RASM, these planes should be flown further than the gulf. The 77L has a tremendous lift potential and an all Y 77L
53 seabosdca : You all are overthinking this. The airframes didn't sell because AI wants an unrealistic price for them. AC and DL both kicked the tires but were unim
54 FlyingAY : Well, that's like saying that the Boeing 727 must be an economical plane, because some are still flying. There are other conditions that might force
55 Stitch : At the time AI placed their order, list prices were as follows: 777-200LR - $221 million 777-200ER - $192 million So at list, AI would pay $232 milli
56 zeke : They didn't need to buy new 777-200ERs, second hand have been available. AI has been leasing, e.g. their A330s, and used 777-200ERs are not anywhere
57 Stitch : I don't know what second-hand market availability of the 777-200ER was in late 2005, so maybe an airline had eight frames available. Cobbling togethe
58 lightsaber : Agreed. That is without a doubt. Price could have made the sale happen. It didn't. Boeing is working on taking the 777 LOV to 60,000 cycles, so these
59 trex8 : It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest that happened but doesn't that also mean someone at Boeing broke US federal laws?
60 Stitch : I fully believe that neither Boeing nor Airbus are crass enough to directly bribe a government official to win a deal. The graft and corruption most
61 CRJ900 : If AI put in 440 Y seats, the payload will quickly be 40-44 tonnes (pax+bags) on a full flight. I guess the B77L will come in handy then, if it still
62 Post contains links and images lightsaber : The 77L would be able to fly just over 8,000nm with that payload! So the 77L would be 'restricted' to a 15 hour mission... I think they'll be able to
63 Darksnowynight : Almost everything I've ever heard and read about the 747 points to it having a greater margin than the 777 ever did or will. Makes sense, given the c
64 Post contains images Stitch : A 777-200LR can haul it's maximum structural payload of 64 tones beyond 7000nm.
65 Post contains images CRJ900 : Then they can use the all-economy aircraft on India-UK too - backpacker express
66 Viscount724 : The last 77E order was 3 years ago (December 2009) for 5 aircraft for ANA.
67 Post contains images lightsaber : I'm laughing with you as I agree. With AI, what they do is no proof of the configuration economics. I see the potential for multiple destinations in
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