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TAM Close To Joining Oneworld  
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3463 times:

LATAM's CEO Enrique Cueto has indicated that LATAM Airlines Group will make its alliance decision very soon. While there was speculation that TAM might have remained unaligned after leaving the Star Alliance, LATAM's CEO prefers for both airlines to be part of the same alliance. Thus, TAM will leave the Star Alliance and join LAN in the oneworld alliance:

Quote:
LATAM's chief executive Enrique Cueto says the merged carrier would "prefer" for both LAN and TAM to be in the same alliance. "It will be easier to manage them together in one alliance," he tells Flightglobal at the sidelines of the ALTA Airline Leaders Forum in Panama City.
LATAM likely to go with Oneworld

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineeastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 881 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3583 times:

C'mon and say it already and out me out of my misery... LATAM will by in OneWorld (TAM included)...

Greetings from IAD



AA will Rise Again!
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11458 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3585 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

It makes all sense to have TAM joining Oneworld. Now is more than clear, at least to me , that LA bought JJ !

I believe among other things, JJ will join LA on AA Terminal 8 next year @ JFK !



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3583 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):

It makes all sense to have TAM joining Oneworld. Now is more than clear, at least to me , that LA bought JJ !

When does Open Skies between the U.S. and Brazil go into effect? LAN will want TAM to have ATI with AA. AA already has ATI with LAN Airlines and LAN Perú. Once Open Skies between Colombia and the U.S. goes into effect, LAN Colombia will want ATI with AA.

[Edited 2012-11-16 10:24:30]

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 3):
When does Open Skies between the U.S. and Brazil go into effect?

October 2015.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3569 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 4):
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 3):
When does Open Skies between the U.S. and Brazil go into effect?

October 2015.

That's actually good. By the time TAM officially leaves the Star Alliance and is invited to officially join oneworld will be sometime next year. Then it will take a year or more to integrate TAM into oneworld; probably joining the alliance during 2014. With Open Skies going into effect the year after in 2015.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9956 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3564 times:

I just don't understand why LAN/TAM keep saying that a decision needs to be made whether TAM will join Oneworld or stay as a stand alone airline. Everybody knows that it just makes zero sense to have TAM operate as a stand alone airline not linked to any alliance which can only be the OneWorld alliance. Why turn around this for so long while it is clear that TAM's only choice is the OneWorld alliance.

Finally it is made public, congratulations to LAN/TAM.

A388

[Edited 2012-11-16 11:35:04]

User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3564 times:

LAN did not have access to TAM's numbers until they closed the merger last June and began the process of due diligence regarding the alliance decision. According to LATAM executives during the Q3 conference call, they are still conducting negotiations with several major international carriers in regards to bringing TAM into the oneworld alliance.

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9956 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3552 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 4):
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 3):
When does Open Skies between the U.S. and Brazil go into effect?

October 2015.

C010T3, do you have a copy for me (via a link or email) of this open skies bilateral between the U.S. and Brazil that will come into effect in October 2015?

A388


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3548 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 10):
C010T3, do you have a copy for me (via a link or email) of this open skies bilateral between the U.S. and Brazil that will come into effect in October 2015?

Of course, here it is:

http://www.airlineinfo.com/treaties/brazil38.pdf


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9956 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3547 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 11):
Of course, here it is:

http://www.airlineinfo.com/treaties/...8.pdf

Thanks C010T3   

A388


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2230 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3547 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 8):
I just don't understand why LAN/TAM keep saying that a decision needs to be made whether TAM will join Oneworld or stay as a stand alone airline. Everybody knows that it just makes zero sense to have TAM operate as a stand alone airline not linked to any alliance which can only be the OneWorld alliance. Why turn around this for so long while it is clear that TAM's only choice is the OneWorld alliance.

It could be just for political reasons, but it could also be that the state of alliances these days are seemingly in greater flux (read: airlines are increasingly cozying up to the idea of formulating cross-alliance strategic partnerships and/or ties with the Gulf Coast carriers) so it's no longer an absolute necessity for a big network carrier to feel pressurized to join one.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11458 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3540 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
I just don't understand why LAN/TAM keep saying that a decision needs to be made whether TAM will join Oneworld or stay as a stand alone airline. Everybody knows that it just makes zero sense to have TAM operate as a stand alone airline not linked to any alliance which can only be the OneWorld alliance. Why turn around this for so long while it is clear that TAM's only choice is the OneWorld alliance.

Just my 2c:
We don't know the extension of the Star agreement signed by TAM and it probably have some penalties and several restrictions towards other alliances. It may be the case that Latam don't want to put more gasoline into the fire and will avoid as much as they can to have any signals towards TAM entering another alliance.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3538 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
We don't know the extension of the Star agreement signed by TAM and it probably have some penalties and several restrictions towards other alliances.

TAM will have to pay a $25 million fee to leave the alliance. This cost has already been included in the initial cost associated with the combination between LAN and TAM. TAM is simply following the directives of the Chilean TDLC and the Brazilian CADE.
TAM absent from Star events as LATAM alliance decision nears

The Star Alliance is already looking to increase its presence in the Brazilian domestic market ahead of TAM's departure from that alliance. Looks like TAM's departure from the Star Alliance will occur very soon.

Quote:
Star Alliance chief executive Mark Schwab says the group must prepare to rebuild its presence in the Brazilian market ahead of the departure of existing member TAM or risk losing a foothold in Latin America's biggest market. While he declines to be specific about potential candidates, Avianca Brazil is seen as a leading contender.
Star looks to rebuild Brazilian presence after TAM departs


User currently offlinejava6673 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3529 times:
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Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
Now is more than clear, at least to me , that LA bought JJ !

LipeGIG, IS more than clear that TAM belong to LA, All management from LA are making desicion in JJ, there is non JJ top Executive from JJ in LA structure, also in the international operations LA are taking over all JJ operations, of course LA bought JJ


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3522 times:

Quoting java6673 (Reply 14):
IS more than clear that TAM belong to LA

TAM is a subsidiary of LATAM Airlines Group S.A.

Quoting java6673 (Reply 14):
also in the international operations LA are taking over all JJ operations, of course LA bought JJ

LAN is not taking over all of TAM's international operations. LAN has only taken-over one route from TAM, the BOG-GRU route. Chile has Fifth Freedom Rights with Brazil; thus LAN can and will operate long-haul routes via Brazil. TAM basically gives LAN a vast domestic network within Brazil under the LATAM umbrella.


User currently offlineflybry From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3515 times:

Here's an interesting article talking about how Star Alliance is preparing for TAM's departure from Star.. specifically looking at adding Avianca Brasil but the airline's current passenger service system is not currently able to handle joining a major alliance like Star.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...presence-after-tam-departs-379152/

"The two obvious candidates likely to be in Star's sights are Avianca Brazil and Gol. With the latter having close ties with SkyTeam's Delta Air Lines, the more likely new partner would be Avianca Brazil. This Brazilian domestic carrier is a subsidiary of Synergy Group - parent of Star member AviancaTaca.

Jose Efromovich, who is Avianca Brazil president and on the board of Synergy, says that the airline's current passenger service system is not "robust" enough to support becoming a Star member. "Our system is not prepared for us to get into Star Alliance," he says.

Avianca Brazil uses a local Brazilian web booking system and would have to move to a more sophisticated platform before it could operate codeshare or international services."


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3512 times:

Quoting flybry (Reply 16):
Avianca Brazil uses a local Brazilian web booking system and would have to move to a more sophisticated platform before it could operate codeshare or international services."

Strange considering that O6 used to operate GRU-BOG daily and code-shared with AV on the route. Also, considering that most Star carriers operate into GRU, O6 will have to work on building up its domestic network via GRU in order to offer attractive connections to Star carriers. O6 does not even operate flights from GRU to destinations, i.e. CGR, CWB, IGU, LDB, VIX, etc.

[Edited 2012-11-18 04:16:51]

User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3493 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 17):
O6 will have to work on building up its domestic network via GRU in order to offer attractive connections to Star carriers.

I don't think that it has to be GRU. It is a renownly unpleasant airport. Brazil being the large country that it is, other hubs should come into play. It's like saying that JFK should be the hub for he whole of the USA.

Talking of the possibility of TAP being acquired by Synergy aerospace, I see TAP and AV Brasil working well together as TAP offers something like 10 destinations in Brasil, and it is to and from those smaller airports that AV Brasil can feed and distribute traffic. Jose Efromovich is very frank in saying that their booking system needs to be more robust. I don't doubt it, but that is something that should be reasonably straight forward to sort out.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3491 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 18):
I don't think that it has to be GRU. It is a renownly unpleasant airport. Brazil being the large country that it is, other hubs should come into play. It's like saying that JFK should be the hub for he whole of the USA.

The same could have been said about BOG before it got a new terminal. GRU will also get a brand new terminal.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 18):
Talking of the possibility of TAP being acquired by Synergy aerospace, I see TAP and AV Brasil working well together as TAP offers something like 10 destinations in Brasil, and it is to and from those smaller airports that AV Brasil can feed and distribute traffic.

While TAP serves 10 destinations in Brazil, carriers such as AC, CA, LH, LX, SA, SQ, TK, UA, operate into GRU, the exceptions being LH and UA which operate into GIG. Also, while TAP operates into the most airports in Brazil from LIS, other carriers will eventually launch services between more cities in Brazil and their hubs in Europe which will put pressure on TAP's routes to Brazil. For example, AF has shown an interest in launching flights to BSB, CNF, FOR and REC.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3491 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 17):
Strange considering that O6 used to operate GRU-BOG daily and code-shared with AV on the route.

It's not strange at all. O6's flights was actually an AV flight in disguise. It was included in AV's booking system. It was not even available in O6's. It only lasted until AV received additional frequency rights for more BOG-GRU flights. That's why it was discontinued

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 17):
O6 will have to work on building up its domestic network via GRU in order to offer attractive connections to Star carriers.

Good that you say that the connections must be attractive. Well, at GRU, that will be very difficult. There are only few slots available and they are obviously not in the primetime.

O6 chose to grow at GIG in the last months, so maybe that's answer to what their strategy is:

http://www.mercadoeeventos.com.br/site/noticias/view/90461

Quoting summa767 (Reply 18):
Jose Efromovich is very frank in saying that their booking system needs to be more robust. I don't doubt it, but that is something that should be reasonably straight forward to sort out.

That's really a lame excuse. Migrating to AV's platform would be an all to complicated task. The problem is the fact they haven't decided about the integration. That's the only obstacle.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3483 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
It's not strange at all. O6's flights was actually an AV flight in disguise. It was included in AV's booking system. It was not even available in O6's. It only lasted until AV received additional frequency rights for more BOG-GRU flights. That's why it was discontinued

Does O6 still hold any frequencies between Brazil and Colombia?

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
O6 chose to grow at GIG in the last months, so maybe that's answer to what their strategy is:

Also, O6 is taking on LA's A-318s to replace the F-100s in order to ensure that it does not offer too much capacity on certain domestic routes. TAM's strategy at GIG is to increase international flights at GIG. Thus far, JJ has launched GIG-MCO and GIG-MVD. JJ will launch GIG-SCL in one week.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):
Does O6 still hold any frequencies between Brazil and Colombia?

Yes, but they are about to expire, since they have been dormant for months.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):

Also, O6 is taking on LA's A-318s to replace the F-100s in order to ensure that it does not offer too much capacity on certain domestic routes. TAM's strategy at GIG is to increase international flights at GIG. Thus far, JJ has launched GIG-MCO and GIG-MVD. JJ will launch GIG-SCL in one week.

Yes, but I wonder how much longer LA will take to surrender them.


User currently offlinejava6673 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3471 times:
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Quoting SCL767 (Reply 15):
TAM is a subsidiary of LATAM Airlines Group S.A.

So this confirm, LipGIG comment (Now is more than clear, at least to me , that LA bought JJ !

) so basicly "Merge is equal a Take over", correct?


User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 876 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3469 times:

Quoting java6673 (Reply 23):
TAM is a subsidiary of LATAM Airlines Group S.A.

LATAM Airlines Group SA is a new holding company that was formed to acquire the shares of both the LAN group companies and TAM - so its ownership of TAM is by no means a clear indication that LAN took over TAM.

If you go to the LATAM website you can see a detailed list of the board of directors:

http://www.latamairlinesgroup.net/ph....zhtml?c=81136&p=irol-govBoard

and its primary shareholders:

http://www.latamairlinesgroup.net/ph...=81136&p=irol-ownershipHolders

Maybe someone who has a detailed knowledge of the pre-merger directors/shareholders of the two airlines could check out the list and see if they are dominated by either ex-LAN or ex-TAM and then we'd have a better idea as to whether it was a takeover or a merger.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 25, posted (2 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3590 times:

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 24):
Maybe someone who has a detailed knowledge of the pre-merger directors/shareholders of the two airlines could check out the list and see if they are dominated by either ex-LAN or ex-TAM and then we'd have a better idea as to whether it was a takeover or a merger.

It's LAN dominated. There are 2 reasons for that. First, LAN had a much higher market value. Second, all of TAM's preferential shares were exchanged for LATAM's, but only 20% of the ordinary shares were. 80% of TAM is still under Brazilian ownership because of the restrictive legislation.


User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 876 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (2 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3583 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 25):
Second, all of TAM's preferential shares were exchanged for LATAM's, but only 20% of the ordinary shares were. 80% of TAM is still under Brazilian ownership because of the restrictive legislation.

Thanks for the info - so does that mean TAM is not under LATAM control, or do the 80% ordinary shares not held by LATAM not have 80% of the voting rights?

I had imagined that there would have been some complex structure in place that protects LATAMs interest in TAM without contravening Brazilian ownership rules.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 27, posted (2 years 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 26):
so does that mean TAM is not under LATAM control

Technically, yes.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 26):
or do the 80% ordinary shares not held by LATAM not have 80% of the voting rights

Yes, they do have 80% of the voting rights, but have agreed that they would execute what's decided by LATAM as whole. It's been also said that TAM's shareholders already had received everything they were owed for 100% of TAM. That should be interpreted as an unregistered agreement to sell IMHO. It's quite complicated and I sincerely don't get everything.


User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 876 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (2 years 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3627 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 27):
It's quite complicated and I sincerely don't get everything.

I am sure you would get it if you'd been paid the tens [hundreds?] of thousands of dollars that one lucky firm of consultants has doubtless received to come up with a scheme that works for all parties...except perhaps the tax man  


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 28):
I am sure you would get it if you'd been paid the tens [hundreds?] of thousands of dollars that one lucky firm of consultants has doubtless received to come up with a scheme that works for all parties...except perhaps the tax man

Haha! No, I think it's because some things are missing. It's like there all sorts of non-disclosed agreements, very sketchy.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11458 posts, RR: 58
Reply 30, posted (2 years 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3586 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

THe "merger" was done just because of the Brazilian regulations.

LA decided that JJ marketing director need to leave... and they got it.
They decided the fate of US operations in both MIA and NYC areas. All under LA management right now as LA runs more flights to both JFK and MIA.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 31, posted (2 years 4 days ago) and read 2967 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 22):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):

Also, O6 is taking on LA's A-318s to replace the F-100s in order to ensure that it does not offer too much capacity on certain domestic routes. TAM's strategy at GIG is to increase international flights at GIG. Thus far, JJ has launched GIG-MCO and GIG-MVD. JJ will launch GIG-SCL in one week.

Yes, but I wonder how much longer LA will take to surrender them.

LAN will only have 5 A-318s left in the fleet by the end of this year. Next year, the new A-320s will replace the remaining 5 A-318s in the Chilean domestic market and will be transferred to O6 as they replace some of their aging F-100s. Regardless, Avianca Brazil now plans to slow down its expansion and will try to decrease its financial losses. Avianca Brazil plans to benefit from joining the Star Alliance and the acquisition of TAP. However, the airline still has not invested in updating their IT system...
Avianca Brazil to slow down expansion in 2013; to benefit from TAP acquisition and Star membership


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