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A320 A More Popular NB In SEAsia Than 737?  
User currently offlinetmoney From Myanmar, joined Nov 2011, 42 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1919 times:

Mingalabar!

I've been dying to ask: From IndiGo to Air Asia to PR to JetStar Asia, in Southeast Asia (India is included in this case) I see a lot more A320s utilized by more airlines than its Boeing counterpart. The only possible exceptions I could think of are LionAir and MH.

If there is a general consensus of this indeed being the case I'd like to know why and what factors come into play? Is it just economics or is there any bias from the general public as to Airbus being the better plane? (I know 727s/737s had had a rough ride in that part of the world with all the crashes during the late 80s-90s before the A320s [and safer standards/planes] came along.)

As usual, if this topic has been discussed before I'd be happy to be pointed to the thread, and I do not by any means intend to start an A vs B war. Thank you!

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1930 times:

I think the A320 is more popular in all parts of the world not just Asia.

Airlines can choose between the different sizes to match their routes and there is little need for additional crew training.

If I was an airline I would be buying the A320 series. It's functional, adaptable and state of the art.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29680 posts, RR: 84
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1928 times:
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I expect it could be down to a number of reasons:

Availability (Airbus builds more A320s a year than Boeing)

Price (Boeing Average Sales Prices have generally been higher than Airbus')

Value Guarantees (The 737 holds it's value a bit better than the A320 and Airbus has been willing to guarantee A320 resale values)

Customer Preference (I expect truly independent studies would probably show the majority of customer's can't tell the difference, but "a.net wisdom" is that an A320 is noticeably more comfortable than a 737).



Quoting babybus (Reply 1):
Airlines can choose between the different sizes to match their routes and there is little need for additional crew training.

They can do that with the 737 family, as well.

[Edited 2012-11-16 11:32:09]

User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9377 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1925 times:

Your two biggest LCCs Air Asia and Lion Air are split.

India: split. Air India/Air India Express is split 737 and A320. Jet Airways is 737. Indigo is A320. Spicejet is 737. GoAir is A320.

Malaysia: split. Malaysia 737, Air Asia A320

Thailand: Leaning A320. Most airlines are operating older airplanes, but Air Asia and the Thai subsidiaries are A320

Indonesia: Leaning 737. Lion Air and Garuda are 737.

Singapore: Leaning A320 with various airlines.

So in conclusion, you see mostly the typical dichotomy that is present in the rest of the world. The Air Asia group is what is pushing the region towards the A320, but I don't think it is fair to say it is mostly A320.

Quoting tmoney (Thread starter):
I do not by any means intend to start an A vs B war. Thank you!

I think you just did.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1932 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 1):
I think the A320 is more popular in all parts of the world not just Asia.

The math doesn't work out on that. Since the introduction of the A320, Airbus has delivered 5307 A318/319/320/321 against Boeing's 5998 737CL/NG.

There are probably more retired 737-300/400/500 than early A320's but I strongly doubt that it's ~700 higher and that doesn't include the 1277 737's that Boeing delivered before the A320 came on the scene.

Quoting babybus (Reply 1):
Airlines can choose between the different sizes to match their routes and there is little need for additional crew training.

Both the A320 and the 737 have different sizes and common type rating across sizes.

Quoting babybus (Reply 1):
If I was an airline I would be buying the A320 series. It's functional, adaptable and state of the art.

Are you suggesting the 737 isn't?

Tom.


User currently offlineabba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1251 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
The math doesn't work out on that. Since the introduction of the A320, Airbus has delivered 5307 A318/319/320/321 against Boeing's 5998 737CL/NG.



To be fair: when the the A320 came along it needed quite some time to establish itself and Airbus as a serious player in the market over against Boeing and MD that dominated aviation at the time. Before the A320, Airbus was a tiny one model framer (the A300 and the shorter A310). It is certainly not an overstatement to say that the A320 is the main reason why Airbus is where Airbus is today.


User currently offlinetmoney From Myanmar, joined Nov 2011, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1925 times:

Quoting abba (Reply 5):
the main reason why Airbus is where Airbus is today
-- with the A320.

Yes, that is exactly what I want to know! But I would like to focus the topic here on Southeast Asia region especially.

Why is A320 more found in this particular region? (Yes, A320s probably outnumber 737s in Europe also but EU is also Airbus's hometurf, no? Equally, one expects more 737s in US because it's B's turf. While other aviation zones like China, S.Korea and Japan have a decent mix of A&B. And I need to be educated on the A:B ratio in Latin America and Africa.)

What is the demography's perception on A and B? We should note here that the middle-class economy is booming in the region and most of the flyers are first-timers.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
but "a.net wisdom" is that an A320 is noticeably more comfortable than a 737

That could be one thing too! As a testament to that I remember my dad once frowned and said "You should've gone on MI's Airbus!" when he found out I'm taking a CI 73H on my way back to US via TPE. But numerous times I've been on WN and equally the same amount on B6 & MI and I believe both aircraft models are comfortable in their own rights.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29680 posts, RR: 84
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1929 times:
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Quoting tmoney (Reply 6):
Why is A320 more found in this particular region?

If I had to pick one, I'd say it's price. Airbus has been more aggressive than Boeing to both gain marketshare and to support their higher production rates.

But as babybus noted, the A320 family is functional, adaptable and state of the art. So add in a great price on top of that, and it seems logical to me airlines would buy it.

Boeing is starting to become more aggressive on pricing themselves and they're starting to win new business (Silkair has recently decided to switch from the A320 to the 737NG and 737 MAX) and you can be sure Lion Air has received excellent pricing for the hundreds of 737NGs and 737 MAX they have ordered. And like the A320, the 737 family is also functional, adaptable and state of the art, so add in a great price on top of that, and it seems logical to me airlines would buy it, as well.

[Edited 2012-11-16 17:55:04]

User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1516 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

Boeing has roughly twice the yield in its Commercial Aircraft Division as Airbus.

This could be due to Boeing being way more efficient than Airbus, but it isn't. Airbus has 107 Employees per delivery and Boeing Commercial 147 per delivery. ( I realise this could be heavily skewed by the amount and method of oputsourcing each company is involved in)

The other major possibility for such a discrepency is pricing. We know Airbus aren't happy with their pricing because they have said so, and they are also making comment about Boeings recent pricing cuts.

Asians are sharp traders, so I would not be surprised if it boils down to pricing.

Ruscoe


User currently offlinemusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1053 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

Hello all, will the ability of A320 to take containers be an advantage for them in asia especially when most airport are bigger and the need of cargo is stronger?


Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 513 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

Quoting tmoney (Reply 6):

Actually, earlier this year or maybe it was last fall, I went through all the major airlines of Europe an the United States. Europe has more 737s than A320 flying in it and the USA, IIRC, was nearly a 50-50 split, but it was in favor of 737s.



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1923 times:

I think two main reasons : Support (more Asian MROs support 320 vs 737 capability, more 320 simulators are available vs 737 ones) and price. Airbus has strategically built a irresistible support network of all sorts for it regionally, over time - though at what cost is possibly an answer nobody knows.


The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4143 posts, RR: 76
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1931 times:
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On this subject, and only based on the MAX vs NEO, a set of up-to-date and - IMO - well documented and very visible set of graphic stats on the respective sales of both aircraft : Regional share MvN


Contrail designer
User currently offlinetonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1933 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1925 times:
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Quoting Pihero (Reply 12):
On this subject, and only based on the MAX vs NEO, a set of up-to-date and - IMO - well documented and very visible set of graphic stats on the respective sales of both aircraft : Regional share MvN

Going by the trends shown on that chart, it seems that if the A320 is not currently ahead, it certainly will be in a few years on all continents except North America. Perhaps this is the reason Boeing are coming out with more competative pricing. I can't imaging that Boeing will let Airbus has this one in a similar manner to what they have done with VLA market.

As an interesting sideshow, I can think of a certain European, no frills airline who have a historical preference for one particular aircraft type, have a record of high fleet turnover and a record of placing large orders so they can make a big song and dance about it who could swing Europe from an A320NEO to a B737MAX dominated market in one swoop!



Next Flights: 18/04/14 QF1011 MEL-HBA; 21/04/14 JQ712 HBA-MEL
User currently offlineabba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1251 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1924 times:

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 8):
Boeing has roughly twice the yield in its Commercial Aircraft Division as Airbus.



This subject has been discussed several times by now and it has been convincingly shown that this is a rather simplistic understanding of the situation.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9377 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days ago) and read 1924 times:

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 13):
Going by the trends shown on that chart, it seems that if the A320 is not currently ahead, it certainly will be in a few years on all continents except North America. Perhaps this is the reason Boeing are coming out with more competative pricing. I can't imaging that Boeing will let Airbus has this one in a similar manner to what they have done with VLA market.

I think it is a little early to make serious comparisons yet about projected market sizes. The MAX is closing in om the sales lead of the NEO. The NEO also is scheduled to enter service earlier.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1922 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Quoting babybus (Reply 1):
If I was an airline I would be buying the A320 series. It's functional, adaptable and state of the art.

Are you suggesting the 737 isn't?

The 737 is based on a 1960s design, many features of which have changed very little over the years. If nothing else I think that makes the A320 slightly more "state-of-the-art".


User currently onlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1017 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1924 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Quoting babybus (Reply 1):
If I was an airline I would be buying the A320 series. It's functional, adaptable and state of the art.

Are you suggesting the 737 isn't?

The 737 is based on a 1960s design, many features of which have changed very little over the years. If nothing else I think that makes the A320 slightly more "state-of-the-art".

Really?

Well your idol John Leahy doesn't seem to think so.

If you want to slip to what he has to say about the NG, start the video at about the 25:20 minute mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V61iuZV8Iwk


Oh, and one more thing... Check out the slideshow at minute 20:33 where Airbus shows their Orders and "Commitments". How much crap did we have to listen to regarding Boeing using the term.  

[Edited 2012-11-17 13:52:16]

[Edited 2012-11-17 13:53:01]


harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1921 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
The 737 is based on a 1960s design, many features of which have changed very little over the years. If nothing else I think that makes the A320 slightly more "state-of-the-art".

I don't want to go into the "what's more advanced" argument...that's been done. Search a.net.

However, the claim wasn't that the A320 is *more* state-of-the-art than the 737, the claim was that the A320 is state-of-the-art. The A320 is based on a 80's design.

Regardless of how you wanted to rank the two aircraft in state-of-the-art-edness, the A320 is a long way from the state-of-the-art.

Tom.


User currently offlinetravelhound From Australia, joined May 2008, 824 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1921 times:

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 9):
Hello all, will the ability of A320 to take containers be an advantage for them in asia especially when most airport are bigger and the need of cargo is stronger?

I think you hit on something here!

My understanding is the main advantage the A320 has over the B737 for LCC carriers is containerised cargo. This is more to do with turn times and aircraft utilisation rather than cargo volume.

I think Airbus gained the Sales advantage through the emergence of the LCC carriers. In the early 2000's LCC's were still very much an unknown quantity. Boeing was the incumbent with the established carriers and Airbus was an aggressive upstart (in relative terms) looking for sales from anywhere it could find them. This scenario created a situation where new entrants could quickly access modern fuel efficient aircraft at a reasonable price. Previously their only aircraft options were older, less fuel efficient hand me downs.

I can't see a similar type of market dynamic happening in the near future, so future market share between the two narrow bodies is probably going to come down to pricing.

Another interesting point to ponder is that of the LLC model and how it is dependent upon aircraft cost of ownership. The cost of ownership is based upon a cost dynamic consisting of upfront costs, running costs, maintenance costs, aircraft utilisation and residual values. If the residual value part of the equation falls over (oversupply of 7-9 year old narrow bodies) it will be interesting to see how this impacts on profitability. If it does the LCC model used by the likes of AirAsia (aircraft leases) may no longer work where as the LCC model used by Lion Air (aircraft ownership) would.


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6590 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1921 times:


Far from mostly 320!

Quoting tmoney (Thread starter):
The only possible exceptions I could think of are LionAir and MH.

Garuda has 737s.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Availability (Airbus builds more A320s a year than Boeing)

This has always been the clincher for
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 3):
The Air Asia group is what is pushing the region towards the A320, but I don't think it is fair to say it is mostly A320.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Are you suggesting the 737 isn't?

Blame Southwest & Continental   

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
I don't want to go into the "what's more advanced" argument...that's been done. Search a.net.
However, the claim wasn't that the A320 is *more* state-of-the-art than the 737, the claim was that the A320 is state-of-the-art. The A320 is based on a 80's design.
Regardless of how you wanted to rank the two aircraft in state-of-the-art-edness, the A320 is a long way from the state-of-the-art.

It really depends on what defines as state-of-the-art. Minor and 'acceptable/reasonable' changes in the definition can make the 'most state of the art' argument go either way in a whiff.
It's an 80s design... that still is competitive today (and burns less fuel per ton payload than the NG), but... the 737, has a 60s fuselage... and the NG only has new wings and stretched out engines... does that make it bad? No... they both still make money for the operators... that's what matter!
Cabin? EFIS? Even the mood lighting and Cabin Information Display System... and then add in the myriad of options customers can have from the OEM, and 3rd party suppliers... and this "state-of-the-art" argument quickly becomes more lame than any lame joke made by a stand-up comedian about to have rotten fruits and pies thrown at him/her!

Quoting tmoney (Reply 6):
But I would like to focus the topic here on Southeast Asia region especially.

OK, I'd like to focus on where I am (see my flag).
Originally, Originally, the bias has been against the 320, due to poor runway pavement strengths which puts the 320 at a disadvantage over the 737 Classics. As operators begin to look at the NGs, they airports began strengthening the runways, taxiways and aprons, and suddenly, Airbus found that their 320s is competitive again!

Where I am, we operate ISA+15C temperatures... It has been found that the conditions does give the 320 a slight edge (climb gradients, runway length requirements, cruise burn). But, the numbers are still so damn close between them... that is, until fuel prices went up! I don't care what fanboys from each side say, but computerized flight planning software CFPs for flight release on the 738 and 320s in identical conditions and identical loads, is a lot more credible than whatever marketing, or employees of each OEMs say!

Another major deciding factor, is, ENGINES. A few years ago, GECAS was offering a ludicrous all in one package for maintenance of airframe and engines for the NG and 320... for I did not believe fuel price was going to go up, I would have scrapped the paperwork for the 320 V2500-A5...   

Quoting travelhound (Reply 19):
My understanding is the main advantage the A320 has over the B737 for LCC carriers is containerised cargo. This is more to do with turn times and aircraft utilisation rather than cargo volume.

This has actually been the disadvantage for the 320! The higher cargo hold means one can no longer handload the plane... requiring investments in belt loaders (or if you want containers, the container loaders)... Higher stairs too... simple things, but beancounters do look at it... The introduction cost of the 320 here, is a nightmare! But, once you get over it, the money flows in.

I've said it in other topics.. don't be surprised if the difference between going with NGs or 320s, is as simple as who pulled the best joke or who sneezed at the wrong time during the negotiations. These two planes, are damn competitive with each other!


When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4689 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1921 times:

Another thing that no one has raised yet is the relatively short stage-lengths. Other than maybe something like SIN-PEK, I can't think of any markets where you need to extra range of the 737.


Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1923 times:

Have to fully agree with Mandala499, there's really very little difference between the two types' performance at average conditions. Which is why seemingly secondary matters such as the financing and support network heavily influence NB decision making these days. What if JL did not dance at the bar that day? But certainly his salesmanship is one of the things that has won the A320 its present market share in this region. I can very much assure you that the performance of 737 vs 320 is not one of the first things that an airline looks at when deciding on a NB choice.
Plus the point raised by RyanairGuru is valid too. There are only a very few flights in SE Asian region that requires the edge in payload/range performance. If you had many flights such as TRV-DXB, this becomes a very different argument.



The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 768 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1922 times:

What I know is that in the Philippine case, the A320 has won hands-down because of financing. Airbus has been more flexible with their payment options than Boeing has been, which is good for upstart Philippine carriers. This is despite the fact that historically, Boeing (and McDonnell Douglas) has had the upper hand here in terms of narrow-bodied aircraft.

User currently offlinewomenbeshoppin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1924 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Availability (Airbus builds more A320s a year than Boeing)

I would hope so, I wonder how many A320's boeing builds?

Sorry, I could not resist.


25 Stitch : A counterpoint would be the large 737 fleets of Southwest and Ryanair. Asian LCC Silkair is also switching from the A320 to the 737. Containerized ca
26 abba : That is true - but you don't need to keep the plane at the gate during that time.
27 travelhound : I think it depends on the type of LCC model. I know for Jetstar containerisation on the A320 plays a big part in the airline achieving half hour turn
28 Post contains images Stitch : You do if you want to load the baggage of connecting passengers.
29 Ruscoe : Last figures I saw were approx 9billion in customer financing for Airbus and approx 4billion for Boeing. The future could be interesting because J.L.
30 Post contains links astuteman : ???? In EADS Q3 results, Airbus gross customer financing exposure was a whole E81m. See slide 27 of 37 http://www.eads.com/eads/int/en/inve...ements-
31 zeke : That is a very visual way of presenting the data, job well done. I thought it had more to do with availability. The reason I also understand why Silk
32 Ruscoe : Yes but what about the leases for aircraft purchases.? I just had a quick look at 2011 and EADS (? Airbus portion) of loans to customers for aircraft
33 jfk777 : Asia has had a huge influx of A320 because a generation ago they didn't have LCC airlines. In Japan Peach, Air Asia Japan and Jetstar Japan didn't exi
34 EPA001 : I would not limit that huge influx to LCC airlines only. Asia is now booming, and therefore a number of new airlines have emerged, and some older air
35 speedygonzales : Then why do European network carriers generally use containers on their A320s, while charter and low-cost airlines do not?
36 Stitch : A possible reason could be that they also operate widebody aircraft, which only use containers, so since they need to load and unload LD3s with conne
37 Post contains images mandala499 : It depends... effective ULD planning can make ULDs so much more effective. Eg: which bags go to which ULD. Would be nice for those carriers who charg
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