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Aerolineas Considers A359 Or B789  
User currently offlinerotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 542 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1327 times:

The national airline for Argentina is considering the A359 or the B789 along with other narrowbodoy variants as well.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...sidering-a350-or-787-order-379132/

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1362 times:

Yeah, well...I'm broke, I'm homeless.... but I'm considering buying a Rolls Royce and a big house in the Hamptons...

The chances of AR getting A359 or 789 are similar to my chances of getting the RR and the fancy house.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1365 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 1):
Yeah, well...I'm broke, I'm homeless.... but I'm considering buying a Rolls Royce and a big house in the Hamptons...

hahaa as never saw such a antic hardcore fan of AR !

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 1):
The chances of AR getting A359 or 789 are similar to my chances of getting the RR and the fancy house.

well say never - never - remember their is the state behind.

cheers
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8604 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1366 times:
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Quoting rotating14 (Thread starter):
The national airline for Argentina is considering the A359 or the B789

Not surprising considering that major Latin American airlines Aeroméxico, AviancaTaca and LATAM have pending orders for either 787s and/or A350s. EZE already has daily 787 flights and AR doesn't want to be left behind the rest...


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2782 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1356 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 3):
Not surprising considering that major Latin American airlines Aeroméxico, AviancaTaca and LATAM have pending orders for either 787s and/or A350s. EZE already has daily 787 flights and AR doesn't want to be left behind the rest...

They might not want to be left behind, but you need $$ to buy things.

AR are at an interesting point now, which mainly revolves around govt stepping in to save them and to further protect any interests they still have.


User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3038 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1352 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 4):
AR are at an interesting point now, which mainly revolves around govt stepping in to save them and to further protect any interests they still have.

I believe they need to and should step in to save the airline but that they should partially privatise it and separate its management entirely from Govt interference in a similar way to how NZ was brought back from the brink. But is this anathema to the current Govt?

And should they get the lifeline they need, I believe they'll need a larger plane as well, so perhaps a combo of -900 and -1000 series A350's may be more suitable than the 787-9 and more regionally (range) focused 787-10.

[Edited 2012-11-17 00:18:04]

*edited for clarity, grammar and spelling


[Edited 2012-11-17 00:20:29]

[Edited 2012-11-17 00:21:33]


come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1351 times:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 4):
They might not want to be left behind, but you need $$ to buy things.

In this biz, you dont need $$$. You need credit.

Just look at the huge AMR Airbus and Boeing orders, or US Airways Airbus order when in BK.
These deals were all financed by the manufacturers themselves.

So we know Airbus and Boeing would happily sell AR anything it desires. Also likely anything AR does the Argentine government would provide loan guarantees for.

So yes, AR could very well order the A350 or 787.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8604 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1350 times:
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Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 4):
AR are at an interesting point now, which mainly revolves around govt stepping in to save them and to further protect any interests they still have.
AR is literally run by government officials that have implemented protectionist policies to protect the carrier from competition from local carriers; as well as other Latin American carriers that are expanding rapidly within Latin America. These policies have produced nothing but losses for the carrier. However, AR would not implement those policies on international carriers that operate long-haul flights into the country for fear of retaliation. AR currently deploys the A340s on eight international routes and one domestic route:

EZE-MIA 2x daily A340
EZE-MAD daily A340
EZE-BCN 4-5x weekly A340
EZE-CCS 5x weekly A340
EZE-BOG 4x weekly A340
EZE-FCO 4x weekly A340
EZE-CUN 3x weekly A340
EZE-SYD 4x weekly A340
EZE-USH 4x weekly A340

[Edited 2012-11-17 01:17:32]

User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1345 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
In this biz, you dont need $$$. You need credit.

Just look at the huge AMR Airbus and Boeing orders, or US Airways Airbus order when in BK.
These deals were all financed by the manufacturers themselves.

So we know Airbus and Boeing would happily sell AR anything it desires. Also likely anything AR does the Argentine government would provide loan guarantees for.

So yes, AR could very well order the A350 or 787.

Are you kidding ? You must know, the words "credit" and "Argentina" can not be used in the same sentence, since Argentina is considered today the worst payer in the World. Having the Argentine government as a "loan guarantee" is probably the worst thing that can happen to a company.... you better get your grandma for that....Just google "Fragata Libertad", or "Thomas Griesa" and you will see...

AR could "order" whatever they want, but the only way AR could HAVE the planes, is with a cash payment.... not gonna happen in the foreseeable future.

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1345 times:

Many folks would happily lend to AR and the Argentine government.

AR has slowly turned its fleet over, 737s, E190s, etc. Getting aircraft on operating or capital leases is not a problem.

Manufactures send planes to countries in lot worse economic shape then Argentina is. Matter of fact the financial state of some US carriers are far worse as they don't have the safety blanket AR enjoys.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1341 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 8):
Are you kidding ? You must know, the words "credit" and "Argentina" can not be used in the same sentence, since Argentina is considered today the worst payer in the World. Having the Argentine government as a "loan guarantee" is probably the worst thing that can happen to a company.... you better get your grandma for that....Just google "Fragata Libertad", or "Thomas Griesa" and you will see...
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 8):
AR could "order" whatever they want, but the only way AR could HAVE the planes, is with a cash payment.... not gonna happen in the foreseeable future.

a call to Hugo and for sure he will pay dont worry.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1345 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Many folks would happily lend to AR and the Argentine government.

What world are you living in?


User currently offlineVZLA787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1339 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 10):
a call to Hugo and for sure he will pay dont worry.

You are absolutely right, if Cristina can't get the financing in place, her dear friend Hugo will come in to save the day as he always has. So far, Venezuela is the only country that has given Argentina any credit. In turn, they pay with Beef, Corn, Soy, and any agricultural product they can export, of course at an overprice.


User currently offlineDCAJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 397 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1339 times:

It is so interesting that whenever an AR thread comes up it is mostly folks from Chile - and usually the same two or three - that are the sole posters or the OP ones. What is it that you guys find so fascinating about AR that compels you to find the most inane of stuff and turn in into the next crusade? Or that borderline obsession with your neighbor, be it its government or its people. Geez, Dr Freud would have had a field day with you and what your curious interest in Argentina must really stand for..


"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlinerafabullara From Brazil, joined Dec 2010, 38 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1338 times:

Well....

like it or not (most don't like it as I can see), AR has modernized it's narrow fleet, and soon or later will modernize the widebody fleet...


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2311 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1338 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Many folks would happily lend to AR and the Argentine government.

LOL!!! Boeing or Airbus would be very wary of any orders from the Argentine govt. The yield on their bonds has been surging, and it appears that many investors are expecting a technical default in the coming months. Unless AR buys with cash, financing is pretty much out of the question.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1338 times:

Quoting VZLA787 (Reply 12):
So far, Venezuela is the only country that has given Argentina any credit. In turn, they pay with Beef, Corn, Soy, and any agricultural product they can export, of course at an overprice.

yes to very overpriced level - and the Venezuelan goverment selling it locally rock bottom - destroying the small agricultural industry in Venezuela that is left...



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4691 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1338 times:

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 5):
I believe they need to and should step in to save the airline but that they should partially privatise it and separate its management entirely from Govt interference in a similar way to how NZ was brought back from the brink. But is this anathema to the current Govt?

I 100% agree with this, but as you say it is not going to happen under Cristina

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 8):
Having the Argentine government as a "loan guarantee" is probably the worst thing that can happen

  

Perhaps Airbus should inflate the price by 70%, so that they don't loose out when Argentina offers to swap their credit for new bonds worth 30% of the original value  
Quoting VZLA787 (Reply 12):
So far, Venezuela is the only country that has given Argentina any credit.

To be fair, Brazil is the largest provider of FDI to Argentina, although almost all of it does admittedly go to the private sector.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineniconet From Italy, joined Sep 2000, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1336 times:

If it´s true what you´re saying... How come AR is getting new planes, such as B738 this year and E190/B73G two years ago?
I´ve flown them about a month ago from FCO to USH (stopover in EZE), A343 on all legs and a decent service was provided. And I could earn Alitalia miles.
I think as part of the cyclic economies we live on they are doing nice efforts to emerge and recover the nice historic prestige they once had (I still remember how good it was to fly with them on the 70´s and 80´s)
Despite of some chilean opinions, of course!

Arrivederci!


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1336 times:

Quoting DCAJet (Reply 13):
What is it that you guys find so fascinating about AR that compels you to find the most inane of stuff and turn in into the next crusade?

If you do a search, you will find that I have " critic " threads about PU, SK, SU, AI, IT, EK... In all the threads I have regarding the crisis or bad practices of those airlines/authorities , I never have replies/people from Uruguay, Sweden, Russia, India or Dubai complaining about the fact that I started a thread about "their" airline/ country. The replies are 99,9 % objective and constructive.
On the contrary, every time I ( or someone else ) started a thread regarding AR or Argentinian authorities, there is always people like you talking about "fascination", "haters", "bashers", always doing an effort to deny facts ( known facts, facts that can be confirmed easily, just writing some words on Google or Yahoo...)
I think Mr. Freud should have much more work trying to understand how or why a number of people insist in deny the reality, even when millions of humans ( like the big majority of Argentinian people ) are seriously affected by the consequences of that reality at the very same time.

Anyway, if you think that Airbus or Boeing will send brand new planes to AR or the Argentinian government before having the money in their respective bank accounts,you are free to believe in that , as I'm free to believe in Santa Claus being 39 y.o.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1338 times:

Quoting niconet (Reply 18):
If it´s true what you´re saying... How come AR is getting new planes, such as B738 this year and E190/B73G two years ago?

1.- Leasing ( Boeings )
2.- Political reasons, since the credit for the purchase was from a Brazilian institution , you can do the search ( Embraers ).

Quoting niconet (Reply 18):
I think as part of the cyclic economies we live on they are doing nice efforts to emerge and recover the nice historic prestige they once had

It is very easy to do "efforts" when you have 2 million dollars every day from the taxpayers to support that "effort". Give me two million dollars every day and a few planes and I promess I can run a "decent " airline too.

Quoting niconet (Reply 18):
Despite of some chilean opinions, of course!

And the fact I'm writing from Chile is important ? We have a good airline ( not the best of the world for sure, but a good airline ) without the need of taking billions of dollars from the tax payers, and the AR/Argentinians situation is very hard to understand for some of us. Simple like that. Is that fact a reason to forbid Chileans to ask/ say things here ??

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4691 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1336 times:

Quoting niconet (Reply 18):
Despite of some chilean opinions, of course!

What on earth has Chile got to do with this?

I'm not Chilean, and neither are:

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 4):
govt stepping in to save them and to further protect any interests they still have.
Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 5):
anathema to the current Govt
Quoting Avianca (Reply 10):
a call to Hugo and for sure he will pay dont worry
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 11):
What world are you living in?
Quoting VZLA787 (Reply 12):
You are absolutely right, if Cristina can't get the financing in place, her dear friend Hugo will come in to save the day
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 15):
Boeing or Airbus would be very wary of any orders from the Argentine govt. The yield on their bonds has been surging, and it appears that many investors are expecting a technical default in the coming months.

The reality facing Argentina runs a bit deeper than a bit of local rivalry  



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1336 times:

Some of you guys really are making too much of the events in Argentina as a barrier for aircraft purchase.

I hope you all realize manufacturers and banks have for decades been dealing with nations have much more severe economic problems including total inability to use hard currencies or have huge currency conversion or transfers restrictions.

You might find it as a joke, but planes have been sold for things as random as oranges in return.

So at the end of the day if AR or the Argentine government is desirous of ordering planes, I don't see a barrier in structuring operating leases or capital loans to cover the transactions.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1332 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 22):
So at the end of the day if AR or the Argentine government is desirous of ordering planes, I don't see a barrier in structuring operating leases or capital loans to cover the transactions.

Maybe they should pay off the other stuff they have had delivered before worrying about new planes for their protected little failure of an airline. There is a ship sitting on some water in Africa they might be interested in.


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2311 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1331 times:

Is the govt still pumping a million dollars a day into AR?


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 24):
Is the govt still pumping a million dollars a day into AR?

Yes. Every day. And the number is around 2 million dollars / day.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7027 posts, RR: 4
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1413 times:

All airlines which fly long haul routes do consider the A359 or 789 right now, would be the same in the 60s when airlines considered either the 707 or the Dc 8 or in the 70s the L1011 or Dc 10  


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1422 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 22):
Some of you guys really are making too much of the events in Argentina as a barrier for aircraft purchase.

I hope you all realize manufacturers and banks have for decades been dealing with nations have much more severe economic problems including total inability to use hard currencies or have huge currency conversion or transfers restrictions.

  

If Pakistan, an economic basket case with large swathes of territory under Taliban control can secure foreign financing for additional 77Ws, I see no reason as to why AR can not do the same!


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1832 posts, RR: 23
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1403 times:

If they can get around their credit issues, I think a mix of 789/7810 would suit them better.

User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4691 posts, RR: 4
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1393 times:

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 27):

Not really comparable because in PK's case it is down to politics. The US government is willing to extend credit through ExIm bank to keep the Pakistanis on side.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 23 hours ago) and read 1396 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 28):
If they can get around their credit issues

The problem is not if they "can", the problem is , they just does not WANT to pay. There are dozens of sentences in international courts / instances ( CIADI, New York) ) ordering payments from Argentina, and they just IGNORE the sentences.
That is the main reason of their position in the ranking of the Countrie's Risk Index, where Argentina has the worst possible ranking except for Greece. Even Spain, struggling with a very deep economical crisis, has a much better ranking. And that ranking, despite what Argentina could say, is one of the tools used by investors and companies all around the world before doing business. That attitude is also the main reason of the seizure of the ship Fragata Libertad in Ghana.

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 27):
If Pakistan, an economic basket case with large swathes of territory under Taliban control can secure foreign financing for additional 77Ws, I see no reason as to why AR can not do the same!

Again, Pakistan, or whatever country you can choose, regardless the many problems that can effectively have, doesn't deny the INTENTION to pay their debts, like Argentina does every day. They are willing to pay just to a few that accepted a reduction of 70 % of the debt, and all the others are called "vultures" for the Argentinian authorities.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1832 posts, RR: 23
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 1375 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 30):
The problem is not if they "can", the problem is , they just does not WANT to pay.

I am referring to the airline not the country. In their situation, they would not buy aircraft outright. They would lease them. As such, the owner would be somebody else and the aircraft could not be seized.


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 1371 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 1):
Yeah, well...I'm broke, I'm homeless.... but I'm considering buying a Rolls Royce and a big house in the Hamptons...

Oh come on now ... American Airlines ordered something like 400 brand spanking new planes last year - and is in bankruptcy. I don't know how the airlines manage it, but lack of money, deficit spending and the like don't seem to bother airlines.

I think the 789 will be a wonderful plane for AI.


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2311 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 16 hours ago) and read 1366 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 32):
American Airlines ordered something like 400 brand spanking new planes last year - and is in bankruptcy.

Thats misleading. AA ordered the aircraft before bankruptcy not while in Chapter 11. Even despite bankruptcy, AA has a better working relationship with its creditors than Argentina has with its own.

Quoting ytz (Reply 31):
I am referring to the airline not the country.

At this point, they are one and the same.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
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