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Delta Buys 49 MD-90s From China Southern  
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11540 times:

It seems that, in an effort to conserve funds, DL has purchased 49 MD-90s from China Southern as opposed to buying more new aircraft, supposedly saving over 1 billion dollars.

http://airnation.net/2012/11/17/delta-buys-49-used-md-90s/

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7323 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11582 times:
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49 mad dawg 90s? Where will they deploy them primarily? Good job DL!   

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10601 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11573 times:

Is this on top of the ones already aquired from other sources? Is this another batch than we've heard of before?


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6101 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11598 times:

Quoting spiritair97 (Thread starter):
DL has purchased 49 MD-90s from China Southern as opposed to buying more new aircraft, supposedly saving over 1 billion dollars.

China Southern doesn't have 49 MD-90's....they bought quite a few from various sources over the last few years (including China Southern) but the article is wrong in saying that they bought 49 from China Southern

Actually did some checking China Southern has no MD-90's...DL bought the few (10-15) they had sometime in the last 18 months.

[Edited 2012-11-17 21:31:46]


Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinerojo From Spain, joined Sep 2000, 2476 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11604 times:

The followin airlines have MD90's (stored and active):

-Saudi Arabian: 29
-Eva Airways: 5
-Uni Air: 8
-Lion Air: 5
-JAL: 5

Is DL taking all MD90's from these airlines?

It will interesting to see DL taking over all MD90's and B717's in the market and become the sole operator of those 2 types...


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11585 times:

Quoting United1 (Reply 3):
China Southern doesn't have 49 MD-90's...

Uh oh. So where are they coming from?


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5768 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11588 times:

This is just a content farm's sloppy regurgitation of the WSJ article linked in another current thread. It means nothing.

There is no new purchase of MD-90s. DL has (or will shortly take delivery of) 65 MD-90s: 16 of their own, and 49 from various other sources. The 49 used MD-90s came from the following:

- SAS (and various lessees of SAS)
- China Southern
- China Eastern
- JAL

The only other MD-90s that might make sense for DL to acquire are the 11 in Taiwan.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6101 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11589 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 5):
Uh oh. So where are they coming from?

They are not coming from anywhere....DL has been buying MD-90's from various operators over the past few years. These are not additional aircraft these are aircraft that DL already either has on property and in service or has stored.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7323 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11590 times:
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Quoting N62NA (Reply 5):
Uh oh. So where are they coming from?

Boeing/MD is reopening the mad dawg line.   


User currently offlineplatinumfoota From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11582 times:

Quoting fxramper (Reply 8):
Boeing/MD is reopening the mad dawg line.

Mad Dog MAX      



Never forget United 93
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7323 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11584 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting platinumfoota (Reply 9):
Mad Dog MAX      

Love it! MD90 NEO. Will give Airbus a run for their money.

This is confirmed? DL will purchase 49, MD90s? Seems shady.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11574 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 6):
The 49 used MD-90s came from the following:

- SAS (and various lessees of SAS)
- China Southern
- China Eastern

So this isn't a "new" move - I had read on here in the past that DL was buying up used MD90s. This is not a "new announcement" of 49 more MD90s in addition to the ones that have been announced, correct?

Anyway - it's good to see the descendent of the DC-9 will be in U.S. skies for years to come!


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10601 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11569 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 11):
So this isn't a "new" move - I had read on here in the past that DL was buying up used MD90s. This is not a "new announcement" of 49 more MD90s in addition to the ones that have been announced, correct?

I think this is more a compilation of all the other announcements of how many DL was acquiring, nothing more.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinetommy525 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11570 times:

How come only the 11 in Taiwan makes sense? EVA and its subsidiary Uni Air are said to be planning to offload its Md90. It is getting A320 and the first is already in service or soon to be. They may have been in talks with Delta already.

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10601 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11571 times:

Quoting tommy525 (Reply 13):
How come only the 11 in Taiwan makes sense? EVA and its subsidiary Uni Air are said to be planning to offload its Md90. It is getting A320 and the first is already in service or soon to be. They may have been in talks with Delta already.

In it's latest filings to the SEC, DL shows 41 owned and 8 leased and NO more. I don't know if this is in addition to the 16 that were already in the fleet or included in those numbers.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6564 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11569 times:

Quoting rojo (Reply 4):

Yeah. I think HA is happy with their 717s

Quoting fxramper (Reply 8):

I thought the term Mad Dog only referred to MD-80.

Quoting mayor (Reply 14):

Were the remaining 14 cancelled & not built or were they built & sold off before delivery?



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11568 times:

Quoting spiritair97 (Thread starter):
in an effort to conserve funds

Olllld news, but it's pretty true, and DL does a good job at it.

Quoting platinumfoota (Reply 9):
Mad Dog MAX

   That would be amazing!



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10601 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11562 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 15):
Quoting mayor (Reply 14):
Were the remaining 14 cancelled & not built or were they built & sold off before delivery?

My mistake.....the filing also shows purchase commitments for 7 of the a/c.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineMEA330 From Lebanon, joined Aug 2002, 288 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11565 times:

Understand DL was never interested in the Saudia MD90's due to the different cockpit layout; but now that DL has committed to lease 88 717's the ex Saudia MD90's look more appealing as they have a common cockpit with the 717 raising possibility of having a 717/MD90 (Saudia) fleet.

User currently offlinecargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11566 times:

Quoting tommy525 (Reply 13):
How come only the 11 in Taiwan makes sense?

The SV MD-90s don't share a common flight deck with the other MD-90s, and might also have some other spec differences. These aircraft might be a good choice for a small startup airline that wanted to focus on this one type - particularly since they are cheap and still modern, but not a good choice to join a large fleet.


User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 872 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11563 times:

AFAIK SV did manage to dispose of the MD90s in the end. Don't know where they ended up, though.

User currently offlineEASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 554 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11567 times:

How old are these birds? and much duct tape is going to be needed to keep them together? Approx. rotations? Maybe DL can find a few DC-3's to buy and bring back into service: Not trans-con of course.

User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2314 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11566 times:

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 20):
AFAIK SV did manage to dispose of the MD90s in the end. Don't know where they ended up, though.

They sold most (not all of them) to AerSale back in April. Now whether they are going to scrap them or attempt to lease them out is another question.


User currently offlineviasa From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 1894 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11563 times:

China Southern did only had 13 MD-90s in its fleet (former China Northern aircrafts). All of them were already in the fleet of Delta Air Lines (N953DN to N965DN). So the information of Airnation is absolutely incorrect!

In total there were 117 MD-90s build, 10 were already gone (crashed, damaged or scrapped). Of the 107 left, 50 MD-90s were in use with Delta, 10 more were registered with Delta but are not yet in service. Five more were still registered in Japan (with JAL) and I'm sure that Delta also will get the 11 Uni Air / Eva Air MD-90s. So, we have 31 MD-90s left, 28 are Saudia planes (and will not fly with Delta, because of other cockpit configuration). The three former Lion Airlines could also go to Delta, but I'm not sure, if they are in good condition (stored in GYR and CGK).

50 Delta (active)
10 Delta (inactive)
4 Japan Air Lines (active --> for Delta)
1 Japan Air Lines (inactive --> for Delta)
11 Uni Air / Eva Air (active --> for Delta?)
1 Saudia (active)
27 Saudia (inactive, some/all to be scrapped)
3 Lion Airlines (inactive)
10 gone (W/O or scrapped)
---------------------------
107 Total


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11562 times:

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 21):
How old are these birds? and much duct tape is going to be needed to keep them together? Approx. rotations?



Are you referring to the a/c on hand with DL or the SV MD-90s...



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12552 times:

Will the avionics receive an upgrade before DL puts them into service? Is the MD90 SAT NAV/GNSS capable?

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 26, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12530 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 25):
Will the avionics receive an upgrade before DL puts them into service? Is the MD90 SAT NAV/GNSS capable?

Whatever differences there are, the a/c will be brought up to current Delta spec.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineJoshu From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13406 times:

I recently shot one of the ex China Southern turned DL MD-90s at BWI:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Joshua McGoun



User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10601 posts, RR: 14
Reply 28, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13036 times:

The source of the article claims that they got this info from a contact at DL and that source insists that they bought 49 from China Southern. I think they need to get a different source.

[Edited 2012-11-18 15:00:55]


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5768 posts, RR: 6
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12966 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 28):
The source of the article claims that they got this info from a contact at DL and that source insists that they bought 49 from China Southern. I think they need to get a different source.

Anyone who chooses to believe a "source" after being shown how that "source's" information can be conclusively disproved with publicly accessible information is an idiot.


User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13032 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 28):
The source of the article claims that they got this info from a contact at DL and that source insists that they bought 49 from China Southern.

Once the "source" completed his interview where he elaborated in great detail all the intimate secrets of Delta's fleet planning strategy, he returned to his normal duty in the guard shack in front of the TOC.  


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8709 posts, RR: 3
Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13040 times:

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 21):
How old are these birds? and much duct tape is going to be needed to keep them together? Approx. rotations? Maybe DL can find a few DC-3's to buy and bring back into service: Not trans-con of course.

Combine the modern design with DL's maintenance and upgrading skills, & the M90 is a totally modern aircraft.

They could easily go another 20+ years. There is nothing chintzy about the M90 when you consider how deep Delta's capability is. They do not need the manufacturer to hold their hand. So they derive great value from the M90s.

[Edited 2012-11-18 15:37:09]

User currently offlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2400 posts, RR: 26
Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13055 times:

Speaking of the unique MD-90 - whatever happened to the former QQ/AA ships? I know there weren't that many in the fleet.


"The low fares airline."
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2314 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12986 times:

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 32):
Speaking of the unique MD-90 - whatever happened to the former QQ/AA ships? I know there weren't that many in the fleet.

They all went to Lionair. One has since been scrapped and the other 4 are stored.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12928 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 22):
They sold most (not all of them) to AerSale back in April. Now whether they are going to scrap them or attempt to lease them out is another question.

The other option could be conversion to Freighter. AEI has reconsidered its previous position and now says they will convert the MD-90 to MD-90SF

http://www.aircargoworld-digital.com/aircargoworld/201211#pg35


User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7522 posts, RR: 7
Reply 35, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 13021 times:

I bet DL wishes they could turn back the clock . I remember reading that Air Aruba's MD90's were scrapped at a young age.


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineakelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2194 posts, RR: 5
Reply 36, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12054 times:

Quoting United_fan (Reply 35):

I bet DL wishes they could turn back the clock . I remember reading that Air Aruba's MD90's were scrapped at a young age.

Indeed, that was a sad story. After Air Aruba gave up the MD90s they went over to a new start-up called Pro Air. Unfortunately that airline never got off the ground and the owner of the MD90s decided there was more money to be made by scrapping them.

Hopefully the parts that were salvaged from the scrapping eventually made their way over to Delta!


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10601 posts, RR: 14
Reply 37, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11803 times:

Without getting into all the details, how much parts commonality is there between DC-9, MD-88, MD-90 and 717?


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 38, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11754 times:

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 36):
Indeed, that was a sad story. After Air Aruba gave up the MD90s they went over to a new start-up called Pro Air. Unfortunately that airline never got off the ground and the owner of the MD90s decided there was more money to be made by scrapping them.

Actually, Pro Air did fly. They were DET-based and used 737-400s, and the MD-90s were meant to replace the 737s.

The MD-90s never flew with Pro Air for two reasons:
1) An FAA investigation, brought on by...
2) NW's dirty tricks against Pro Air



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7522 posts, RR: 7
Reply 39, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11640 times:

Looks like another is inbound from ANC.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N952DN



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 725 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11163 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 34):
The other option could be conversion to Freighter. AEI has reconsidered its previous position and now says they will convert the MD-90 to MD-90SF

Interesting. For others who may have been confused, AEI is not Aersale, so it's up to Aersale... other than Delta & Aersale, is there any other MD-90 owner?


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11141 times:

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 40):
other than Delta & Aersale, is there any other MD-90 owner?

Uni-Air/EVA and Boeing. SAS still owns the eight MD-90's they have on lease to Delta

[Edited 2012-12-01 10:57:58]

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 42, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11109 times:

Quoting United_fan (Reply 39):
Looks like another is inbound from ANC.

Why is it going to MZJ from Russia?



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinePMUA787 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11061 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 42):
Why is it going to MZJ from Russia?

The reasons for this routing thru Petropavlosk, Russia PKC is the aircraft is probably not equipped with HF radios and life rafts. Very common routing PKC-ANC for ferry flights.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 44, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11041 times:

Quoting PMUA787 (Reply 43):
The reasons for this routing thru Petropavlosk, Russia PKC is the aircraft is probably not equipped with HF radios and life rafts. Very common routing PKC-ANC for ferry flights.

Is this one of the ex-JL planes, I'm assuming?



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6159 posts, RR: 29
Reply 45, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10912 times:
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Quoting akelley728 (Reply 36):
Unfortunately that airline never got off the ground
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 38):
They were DET-based

I think they were the last scheduled carrier using DET. I remember reading about a turbo prop operator flying to CLE, but I don't know if that got off the ground or was even a scheduled carrier.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 31):
They could easily go another 20+ years.

Considering that NW got 40 years out of some DC-9s the MD-90 and 717 could be easily be around another twenty plus years.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10506 times:

I'm curious as to how much work goes into these aircraft once DL takes ownership. Obviously there is an all new interior, but do they do substantial work on the all the aircraft systems to get then to DL standard? Are there substantial differences in the condition of the planes between the different airlines that supply the aircraft?

Thanks for any info.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 47, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10325 times:

When Delta retires the last 738 from the fleet the crew will fly home in an MD-90.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13440 posts, RR: 100
Reply 48, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10036 times:
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Interesting finding out the history of the MD-90. It implies that any that do not find their way to DL will be parted within 7 or so years.  
Quoting platinumfoota (Reply 9):
Mad Dog MAX

   I love it!

Or should it be Mad MAX Dog?  
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 15):
I think HA is happy with their 717s

They are, but eventually they will look into another type as the 'economy of scale' of the Douglas T-tail fleet drops. But there is no rush with DL buying from WN the 717s. But HA will most likely be the first to hit 60k cycles with the 717. To be blunt, there were no *large* sales campaigns demanding a longer life and thus no funding of the testing to extend the airframe life. It is possible to extend the 717 duration, but at a heavier inspection cost.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 45):
Considering that NW got 40 years out of some DC-9s the MD-90 and 717 could be easily be around another twenty plus years.

   The MD-90 and 717 are simply not certified to the 100k cycles of the DC-9.

Cycle lives (cycles/hours)

DC-9: 100,000/100,000
MD-80: 50,0000/50,000 (extendable, IIRC to 80k cycles fairly economically)
MD-90: 60,000/90,000
717: 60,000/60,000
737NG: 75,000 (extendable)
A320: 60,000 (was 48,000 recently as in this September document)

Source:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-09-07/pdf/2012-22090.pdf

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9806 times:

Quoting mcg (Reply 46):
I'm curious as to how much work goes into these aircraft once DL takes ownership. Obviously there is an all new interior, but do they do substantial work on the all the aircraft systems to get then to DL standard? Are there substantial differences in the condition of the planes between the different airlines that supply the aircraft?

Here you go



User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1130 posts, RR: 3
Reply 50, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9536 times:
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I have heard that Delta is buy some of the Saudi MD-90s for parts and has basically bought all of Saudi's MD-90 spare parts.   

User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2603 posts, RR: 15
Reply 51, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9305 times:

Quoting mcg (Reply 46):
m curious as to how much work goes into these aircraft once DL takes ownership

They get full Heavy Maintenance Check, which is the same one that gets done every six years on the existing DL MD88/90 fleet. On an existing fleet airplane the interior components are just overhauled, but on these all new seats, and galleys are installed so they match the config of the rest of the fleet.

I think most of the work has been done by AAR in MIA. They have all been painted in ATL I think. Just saw one of the JAL aircraft the other day before It went in for paint.


User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2391 posts, RR: 7
Reply 52, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8804 times:

At now favorable economies of scale, the MD-90 is proving itself as far greater moneymaker over the A320, within DL's operations. I would be shocked if DL do not sign for more than 65 when it's all said and done.

Interestingly, DL has started to receive some positive mainstream press for this strategy. Here is a recent clip from CNBC:

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/cnbc/49861787#49861787

Disappointingly, our pal Mr. Boyd did not represent the insider community to it's fullest.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 19):
The SV MD-90s don't share a common flight deck with the other MD-90s
Quoting viasa (Reply 23):
So, we have 31 MD-90s left, 28 are Saudia planes (and will not fly with Delta, because of other cockpit configuration).

These two statements are now irrelevant with the go-ahead for the MD-88/90 flight-deck mod. For the ex-SV frames, it will come down to the condition of each individual aircraft. Eight are currently at ROS and reportedly airworthy. If DL want them for active service, expect them to receive the same flight-deck mod. Otherwise, they'll be taken for MRO parts.

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 21):
How old are these birds? and much duct tape is going to be needed to keep them together? Approx. rotations?

Duct tape? These are not 733s...   

The large majority of the used MD-90s have UNDER 20k cycles. That is 1/3 of their useful lives...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 48):
Quoting falstaff (Reply 45):
Considering that NW got 40 years out of some DC-9s the MD-90 and 717 could be easily be around another twenty plus years.

   The MD-90 and 717 are simply not certified to the 100k cycles of the DC-9.

Lightsaber, you're obviously not aware of the current cycle numbers. The used MD-90s, in particular, are nowhere near 30k, so another 20 years of service is certainly well within the realm of possibility...   

The FL 717s have higher numbers, but still have ~15 years of service left. Later build/non FL 717s, (potential future DL aircraft), will go beyond 20 years easily.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 50):

I have heard that Delta is buy some of the Saudi MD-90s for parts and has basically bought all of Saudi's MD-90 spare parts.

Was there ever a doubt?  



There's nothing quite like a trijet.
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9672 posts, RR: 14
Reply 53, posted (1 year 12 months 23 hours ago) and read 8455 times:

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 52):
Duct tape? These are not 733s...   

The large majority of the used MD-90s have UNDER 20k cycles. That is 1/3 of their useful lives...

ugh. I don't get why all the MD90 hate on here. They have this generation engines and have ~the same fuel burn/CASM as the A320/737NG. (and even have the same engine as UA/US A32S).
Also (with out looking it up) a good bit of the MD90 fleet is younger than a large amount of the A320 fleet.

anyways, As you said, the 90s and 717s will be with Delta for a long, long time.  
Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 50):
has basically bought all of Saudi's MD-90 spare parts.   

This is true.



yep.
User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 54, posted (1 year 12 months 18 hours ago) and read 8120 times:

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 52):
The large majority of the used MD-90s have UNDER 20k cycles. That is 1/3 of their useful lives...

Very true. The three aircraft from Hello that became DL ships 9217, 9218 and 9219 had less than 14K hours and 9K cycles (approximate numbers) when they entered the DL fleet. They have many years ahead of them with DL.

[Edited 2012-12-02 06:58:28]

User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (1 year 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 7749 times:

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 52):
I would be shocked if DL do not sign for more than 65 when it's all said and done.



Delta has recently stated that they are looking at acquiring between 12 and 15 more frames. Interesting to note that Boeing is no longer offering the four Ex-Lionair MD-90's for sale or lease.


User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2603 posts, RR: 15
Reply 56, posted (1 year 12 months 11 hours ago) and read 7270 times:

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 52):
These two statements are now irrelevant with the go-ahead for the MD-88/90 flight-deck mod.

So is this going to happen. Last I official word I heard was, it is on hold. That was about a month ago.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13440 posts, RR: 100
Reply 57, posted (1 year 12 months 6 hours ago) and read 6838 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 52):
you're obviously not aware of the current cycle numbers. The used MD-90s, in particular, are nowhere near 30k, so another 20 years of service is certainly well within the realm of possibility...

What are the cycle numbers? FL had a reputation for very high (order of 14/day) on the 717. I see there is life, but not DC-9 life as they are also going to hit expenses at hours. Now, they're built for more, but not certified and that means expensive inspections.

As the only major MD-90 operator, DL will have economy of scale. With how high A320 and 737 production rates are, I'm not surprised they are able to buy them at reasonable prices. The question is how long is economical. To 40 years of age? I say no. For greater than 5 years? Yes. So now we debate when in between it makes sense to upgrade them. Since the purchase prices/leases are so reasonable, they can be treated as long term or a short term asset. Whichever has better economics for DL. It will be interesting to see when they are repleaced (for I didn't narrow the window much). My best thumb in the wind estimate is 7 to 15 years.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2391 posts, RR: 7
Reply 58, posted (1 year 12 months 5 hours ago) and read 6754 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 53):
They have this generation engines and have ~the same fuel burn/CASM as the A320/737NG.

   In particular, compared to the A320, the MD-90s are more profitable. Minus the SK frames, there no monthly leases, (the -90s are paid-in full by the time they enter service), virtually equal fuel burn, better dispatch reliability and 12 more passengers.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 55):

Delta has recently stated that they are looking at acquiring between 12 and 15 more frames. Interesting to note that Boeing is no longer offering the four Ex-Lionair MD-90's for sale or lease.

   And as I noted some time ago, a total fleet of 80 are approved by the BOD. While there have been talks, nothing is official right now.

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 56):
So is this going to happen. Last I official word I heard was, it is on hold. That was about a month ago.

The flightdeck mods should begin by the time the 717s enter the fleet. This may encompass ~200 (current and future) MD-88/90s. Each will take about 48 hours to complete, at a rate of 25 per month, with ETA on the entire fleet by mid 2014 (about 8 months). Any lost capacity during the downtime will easily be handed by the D95s, which will stick around, and the incoming 717s.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 57):
What are the cycle numbers?

The CZ aircraft had between 15k-21k cycles, when DL finalized the purchase agreement. The MU frames were in the same ballpark, and the SK-owned frames much less - as confirmed by B757forever:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 54):
Very true. The three aircraft from Hello that became DL ships 9217, 9218 and 9219 had less than 14K hours and 9K cycles (approximate numbers) when they entered the DL fleet. They have many years ahead of them with DL.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 57):
FL had a reputation for very high (order of 14/day) on the 717. I see there is life, but not DC-9 life as they are also going to hit expenses at hours.

I did specify non FL frames. I should include HA as well. But the other aircraft most definitely will have the opportunity to fly for another 20 years. For example, the 25 ex-YX aircraft only have about 3-4 years of active service under their belt. If they are scrapped early, it will not be because of cycles.



There's nothing quite like a trijet.
User currently offlinewoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1031 posts, RR: 2
Reply 59, posted (1 year 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 6551 times:

I think we can all agree that the 717 and MD90s will last a long time since there is no totally new narrowbody even on the drawing board at this point. The A320NEO and 737MAX are not quite new enough to outweigh the very low acquisition cost of the orphan MD90s, something of the next generation after the NEO/MAX will have to materialize to put the MD90 and 717 out of a job.

Wouldn't it be an interesting discussion on how the 717 and MD90 were possibly ahead of their time? If they are still fully comparable to current build 737NGs and A320 family aircraft despite having been out of production for over a decade, could/ should have Boeing kept them around? Who knows, but it is a testament to the design of the DC-9 family.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13440 posts, RR: 100
Reply 60, posted (1 year 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 6493 times:
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Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 58):
The CZ aircraft had between 15k-21k cycles, when DL finalized the purchase agreement.

Lower than I expected. Ok, you have a point there.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 58):
I did specify non FL frames.

My bad, I missed that. Then you are correct these frames have a long life ahead. I would expect DL to put on 2,000 cycles/yr (6 cycles/day) to 3,000 cycles/year (probably at the lower end). So there will be up to 20 years left of 'opportunity life.' However, economic life is relative and thus I expect less. But... no reason for DL not to wait until their 'shopping opportunity' is at their best advantage.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5768 posts, RR: 6
Reply 61, posted (1 year 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 6447 times:

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 59):
Wouldn't it be an interesting discussion on how the 717 and MD90 were possibly ahead of their time?

They were of their time. They were contemporaneous with the A320 and showed up not long before the 737NG.

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 59):
If they are still fully comparable to current build 737NGs and A320 family aircraft

Except they're not. They lack the range. They work only on a subset of 737NG and A320 missions. If you're as big as Delta, that doesn't matter, because you can have multiple subfleets. They also have somewhat higher maintenance costs for normal operators, but Delta has the chops and tools to get around this.

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 59):
could/ should have Boeing kept them around?

The MD-90? No. It wasn't competitive with the 738 as a new-build aircraft.

The 717? Maybe. It could have had a future.


User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2391 posts, RR: 7
Reply 62, posted (1 year 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 6430 times:

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 58):
Quoting dtw9 (Reply 55):

Delta has recently stated that they are looking at acquiring between 12 and 15 more frames. Interesting to note that Boeing is no longer offering the four Ex-Lionair MD-90's for sale or lease.

   And as I noted some time ago, a total fleet of 80 are approved by the BOD. While there have been talks, nothing is official right now.

Too late edit, but I was remiss in that the 11 aircraft owned by B7 are guaranteed for DL. Widgets, please confirm when this is acknowledged on DeltaNet and made official.



There's nothing quite like a trijet.
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10601 posts, RR: 14
Reply 63, posted (1 year 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 6417 times:

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 62):
Too late edit, but I was remiss in that the 11 aircraft owned by B7 are guaranteed for DL. Widgets, please confirm when this is acknowledged on DeltaNet and made official.

The latest quarterly report shows 41 owned, 7 leased and committments for 7 more.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2391 posts, RR: 7
Reply 64, posted (1 year 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 6383 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 61):

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 59):
If they are still fully comparable to current build 737NGs and A320 family aircraft

Except they're not. They lack the range.

Which is largely due to the size of the fuel tanks; a comparison with -30ER is more fair. The MD-90 was to be offered in 3 or 4 additional versions - each of which would have had more range than the standard -30. As it was, the initial clients didn't need the range. That would of changed if the -90 had made it to the 2000s.

Is the same story for the 717. Off memory, an A319 holds ~43k lbs of fuel vs ~26k lbs for a 717. Like the -90, a family was planned but only the base model made it to fruition.



There's nothing quite like a trijet.
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2391 posts, RR: 7
Reply 65, posted (1 year 12 months 3 hours ago) and read 6297 times:

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 58):
the SK-owned frames much less - as confirmed by B757forever:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 54):
Very true. The three aircraft from Hello that became DL ships 9217, 9218 and 9219 had less than 14K hours and 9K cycles (approximate numbers)

Oops, small correction on me. Ships 9234, 9235, and 9236 were the ex-Hello jets leased from SK. Nonetheless, rather low cycles.



There's nothing quite like a trijet.
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