Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
What's Going On In CLE?  
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9956 times:

Parking
- What is the fate of the long term City onsite parking lot? It's crumbling badly.
- Haven't heard lately about the CIty purchasing the Sheraton and tearing it down for a new long term parking lot? That was something we heard from Airport management as a possibility.

UA
- They aren't pulling out as everyone on a.net predicted
- Few new destinations added: OKC, BNA, etc. Any others for 2013?
- Other UA updates?

Others:
- Frontier adding DEN
- DL added LGA
- Will WN remain or go all in at CAK?

Facility:
- New construction of the ATC tower updates?
- 2013 volume projections? Ohio just announced 6.9% unemployment so things are going in the right direction.
- Will the opening of Medical Mart in October 2013 mean anything to CLE?
- Onsite gas station by the rental car return center?

102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9985 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Thread starter):
Ohio just announced 6.9% unemployment so things are going in the right direction.

and the CLE metro area has a 6.5% unemployment rate, placing it # 129 out of 372, lowest to highest, for the period ending September 2012 ranking :

http://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm

I'm liking where we rank compared to many of the A.netter "darling" cities, but ignorant A.netters will continue to cling to the 30 year old image of the so called "rustbelt" bestowed upon the region primarily due to steel industry reduction decades ago.

UA opinion: substituting destinations similar to the way CO always did and getting a little publicity, beyond that, no news is good news for now.

Medical Mart won't increase CLE O&D to a measurable amount. CLE is in the middle of a huge population base more easily accessed by driving rather than facing the cost effectiveness of CLE being a high airfare airport and the overall increase in travel time from A to B via airlines, whether it be due to connections or security, etc... Probably the biggest impacts that generate relatively low O&D for a metro area it's size, except for the CAK alternative and to an extent PIT ((both airports advertise in the market)

Glad there's been a couple blips of new service from DL and F9, first such stuff in years


User currently onlinen797mx From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9985 times:

I just flew out of CLE last week and through the Bravo yesterday and I can attest it it pretty dead there comparatively. I was there for three hours and only saw maybe ten planes take off or land in that period. IMO I think it should be a Class C airport since not many go in and out.

Frontier only added DEN to CLE because WN moved into CAK with flights to Denver and were underpricing them.

WN should remain at CLE because I don't think CAK has the capacity to handle what Southwest would bring. Plus the flight students at Kent State University fly into there all the time and it would cause some delays they wouldn't like... (Not my fault )



Clear skies and strong tail winds.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9979 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting n797mx (Reply 2):
Frontier only added DEN to CLE because WN moved into CAK with flights to Denver and were underpricing them.

Sorry, no.

The switch from CAK to CLE because Frontier has to have at aircraft at CLE for the CUN/PUJ services and it was expensive to split it over two airports. It previously had to fly non-revs to get the aircraft to CLE.

mariner

[Edited 2012-11-18 15:41:28]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9972 times:

Quoting n797mx (Reply 2):
IMO I think it should be a Class C airport since not many go in and out.

LOL because airspace classes are determined by the number of jets a kid can spot from the terminal in a specific period of time.

Quoting n797mx (Reply 2):
Frontier only added DEN to CLE because WN moved into CAK with flights to Denver and were underpricing them.

That actually has nothing to do with it. F9 moved to CLE to better compliment their long-term charter contract.

Quoting n797mx (Reply 2):
Plus the flight students at Kent State University fly into there all the time and it would cause some delays they wouldn't like...

I think it's more likely to be the other way around.



[Edited 2012-11-18 15:55:22]


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6097 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9972 times:

Quoting n797mx (Reply 2):
WN should remain at CLE because I don't think CAK has the capacity to handle what Southwest would bring



A whole concourse to themselves, 4 gates, ticket counter space as needed, no ATC delays. I assuming this statement was sarcasim?

WN with 4 gates, thats 40 flights daily!!



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9970 times:

Quoting n797mx (Reply 2):

Hahaha. This is funny. Come to IAD at 10 in the morning and wander around the C and D concourse. You'll think it should be Class G. It's called banks.


User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 476 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9964 times:

I will tell you what's new in cle. Airfares, they are sky high outrageous. It used to be that PIT residents would make the two hour drive to CLE to save some serious change, Now it's completely reversed. I am flying To LGA from NE Ohio in a couple weeks, and if I had the time, which I don't, I'd literally save 50% driving to Erie and connecting back in CLE. I guess higher prices are good news for the carriers, but not great for us residents.

User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9969 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 5):

If UA ever dehubs CLE and WN decides to expand there's not much room at CAK without building out. It makes sense for WN to keep their limited presence at the B concourse and see what happens. Also, if UA an WN walk out of CLE it would invite another carrier into the market in no time. It makes sense for WN to stay.

[Edited 2012-11-18 19:41:40]

User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6097 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9960 times:

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 6):

I don't doubt that. However, at present time CAK has plenty of room for expanded operations, unlike what the kid from Buffalo was saying.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9964 times:

Quoting joeman (Reply 1):
Medical Mart won't increase CLE O&D to a measurable amount.

Two premier companies, GE and Johnson Controls said they are setting up the equivalent of "national salesrooms" in the MM, which is exactly the reason it was initially proposed. JC said it's extremely difficult to take potential customers to a working hospital - that the CLE facility will work much better for them. Given the price of even trivial medical projects, the added cost of a plane ticket to CLE for a facilities preview will be insignificant.

If things work the way JC and GE are planning, they will boost traffic - not mega-growth, but a nice piece of high-end business.

Just me: the MM is going to be far more successful that people expect.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9960 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 10):
Just me: the MM is going to be far more successful that people expect.

Now if only they could find a better name for it.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9960 times:

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 11):
Now if only they could find a better name for it.

The Michael R White Center for Health and Innovation?

Or whatever his middle initial is...



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9963 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 12):
The Michael R White Center for Health and Innovation?

Sounds like the Baltimore-Washington Thurgood Marshall International Airport. Letter-sized paper isn't big enough to hold the letterhead. And still people just call it BWI.

MedMart = short, punchy, memorable, and reasonably descriptive.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 673 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9963 times:

There is just something about the word Cleveland that brings out Pavlovian reactions in some people. Cleveland, the city who's sports teams snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and who's vibrant nightlife make the Australian Outback look like Miami's South Beach by comparison. Yet I will resist the equally cliché rebuttal retorted by we thin-skinned folks that were born there. I will not mention the international corporate ties, the Cleveland Clinic or the cultural scene including the Cleveland Orchestra that can play a Respighi's The Pines of Rome with the best of 'em. Oh I just did.

As for CLE, that temporary parking garage built sometime in the early 70s still stands. It is south of the Sheraton and may appear crumbling but is entering its fourth decade of use. That is remarkable for a structure the Plain Dealer described as temporary.

I have never heard anything about the city of Cleveland purchasing the Sheraton Hopkins and tearing it down. That hotel has been on that property since the 1960s and has been through many phases and renovations. At one time the top floor of the Sheraton was the home of a nightclub called "The Final Approach" and is now an excellent executive floor of rooms to watch aircraft take-off and land.


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9960 times:

The aiport is waiting for approval from the FAA to get a new customs/FIS among other improvements.


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9960 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 15):
The aiport is waiting for approval from the FAA to get a new customs/FIS among other improvements.

That's interesting cle757...can't help but wonder when a push for a new customs/FIS began. Seriously glad to know that.

On a more bitter side, the last I heard of a push for that (by a.netters anyway) was to get one in place during the 1 and a half year of preparation for the 12 week CO CLE-CDG service.


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9960 times:

Quoting cle757:
The aiport is waiting for approval from the FAA to get a new customs/FIS among other improvements.

That's great to hear. Two responses.

1. Why is FAA approval needed --- is it so they would pay for it or some other regulatory issue?

2. That's great for CLE. For LH, UA, BA or whomever, it makes the city a more attractive port of entry. CLE, IMO, could surely support service to LHR, FRA, AMS, MEX, and perhaps a few others. The economy, and UA's preference for EWR, killed CLE's LHR (and previously LGW) service. The FIS is probably the singlemost urgent need for CLE right now.

Quoting MasseyBrown:
Just me: the MM is going to be far more successful that people expect.

I agree here. Also, the MM was the impetus for the new convention center, which will definitely increase traffic to/from the city.

Also, the city is in the early stages of developing land on the SW section of BKL for office development--that may have the potential to increase demand at Burke for service some 5 or so years from now, beyond air taxi operations. It'd be great to get a scheduled carrier back in there--for at least for LGA, MDW, and DTW.


User currently onlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9962 times:

CO now UA has some deal with CLE to have right of resusal for BKL they get the chance to serve the route before BKL can be used by others...so if airline B wants to run BKL-LGA the UA gets first crack if they refuse then B can start BKL-LGA

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16820 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9961 times:

My question is what affect will the energy boom in Northeast Ohio have on the Cleveland economy and airtravel, any?

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 17):
2. That's great for CLE. For LH, UA, BA or whomever, it makes the city a more attractive port of entry

While another trans-Atlantic flight would be nice, I think the FIS will mostly be handling flights to Cancun, Dominica Republic etc..

[Edited 2012-11-20 03:31:21]


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9961 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):
My question is what affect will the energy boom in Northeast Ohio have on the Cleveland economy and airtravel, any?

Was anyone every able to verify the OKC flight was directly related to the energy shale boom?

Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):
While another trans-Atlantic flight would be nice, I think the FIS will mostly be handling flights to Cancun, Dominica Republic etc..

Well, it at least takes the " you dont have a good FIS facility out of the excuse list". Once TATL rebounds in 2014, I'd guess there is some potential even if CLE has to waive fees or what not to entice someone to do so. Might be a good announcement in Oct 2013 when the MM opens for a 2014 start.

With the Sherwin Williams major acquisition in MEX, I wonder if that will be enough volume to finally see a daily direct flight vs. all via IAH. I know researched extensively under CO.


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9959 times:

Quoting fun2fly:
With the Sherwin Williams major acquisition in MEX, I wonder if that will be enough volume to finally see a daily direct flight vs. all via IAH. I know researched extensively under CO.

A while back, AM had applied for and received operating authority on CLE-MEX. They kept this authority active for a few years, then finally let it lapse just recently, maybe around 2007. There's a lot of trade between Ohio (not sure what part) and Mexico; the Sherwin-Williams deal likely adds to the pot. Would be great to see a CLE-MEX.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9960 times:

I'm not sure how much, if anything, the Feds would put up for new customs and immigration, although they do pay for almost all runway and tower work. The last time CO was interested in FIS, the projected cost was $3-5 million. The current Master Plan shows a 2015-17 timeframe for some kind of Concourse C facility.

The airport's debt level jumped $50 million in 2011. Does anybody know what that went for? AirMall construction? The 2012 FAA numbers aren't out yet and the city doesn't release much useful data.

Edit: fun2, I'm glad you started this thread.

[Edited 2012-11-20 06:38:16]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9960 times:

Interesting read...had not seen the mid parking facility hotel before.

http://www.clevelandairport.com/Doin...-Business/Project-Information.aspx


FIS "Immediate Term" 2016-2025

D Connector 2026+ (aka probably never)


User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 673 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9959 times:

The new Cleveland Hopkins hotel for the foreseeable future is under the category of a "wish list." This is a link from April of 2011.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011...ew_hotel-office_complex_one_o.html


User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10121 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting fun2fly (Thread starter):
Frontier adding DEN
- DL added LGA

Nice additions to the CLE market. F9 generally offers some cheap connections to the west through DEN.

Quoting fun2fly (Thread starter):
Will WN remain or go all in at CAK?

Even though it's a small station I bet it will stick around. CLE-LAS is returning in the Spring, which in May puts CLE at 14 daily departures. It's unfortunate STL and PHX have been dropped in the past several years and hopefully nothing else gets cut.

Southwest in CLE next Spring:

1x LAS
7x MDW
4x BWI
2x BNA



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9980 times:

One of Ricky Smith's goals has been to increase airport revenues from non-aeronautical sources. FAA CATS Reports for 2009-2011 say he's succeeding, but probably not by as much as he had hoped.

(All sales in 000's)
Food sales '09 $464 '10 $2,31 '11 $2,333
Store sales '09 $2,382 '10 $1.763 '11 $2,311
Totals '09 $2,846 '10 $3,794 '12 $4,644

This is pretty good growth considering the state of the economy and the fact that emplanements (mostly as a result of UA cutbacks) declined by 17% over those years - but I wonder if AirMall is pleased, based on their own projections.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10092 times:

I'm surprised WN's website still doesn't associate CAK and CLE together. Many likely don't check fares to CAK.

I think WN will keep and grow CLE and move DEN service over to CLE, add MCO for EWY and SJU and future connections, and convert CAK as follows:

- indicates minus
CLE: MDW, BNA, BWI, LAS and +DEN, +MCO, +HOU.
CAK: MDW, MCO, TPA, BOS, RSW (seasonal), +FLL, -DEN, -LGA, -ATL.

[Edited 2012-11-21 09:43:43]

User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10069 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 7):
I will tell you what's new in cle. Airfares, they are sky high outrageous. It used to be that PIT residents would make the two hour drive to CLE to save some serious change, Now it's completely reversed. I am flying To LGA from NE Ohio in a couple weeks, and if I had the time, which I don't, I'd literally save 50% driving to Erie and connecting back in CLE. I guess higher prices are good news for the carriers, but not great for us residents.

How about FL's CAK-LGA flight? Or, WN on CLE-BWI-LGA while BWI-LGA lasts.

I've said it before but It'd be great if F9 could consider TTN-CLE-DEN, as fares are quite high from both PHL and EWR to CLE.


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6097 posts, RR: 23
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10035 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 27):
Many likely don't check fares to CAK.

Many as in who?

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 27):
I think WN will keep and grow CLE and move DEN service over to CLE

To now compete with UA and F9 again, why would they do that? They own CAK-DEN

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 27):
add MCO for EWY and SJU and future connections, and convert CAK as follows:

Not a chance! I have no idea why you think this. WN has always been and will continue to be small at CLE. They are at roughly 14 daily flights and always have been. Unless UA closes its doors in CLE next week I don't think you are seeing WN add any CLE service.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 6
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9979 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting as739x (Reply 29):
Not a chance! I have no idea why you think this. WN has always been and will continue to be small at CLE
Quoting Flytravel (Reply 27):
I think WN will keep and grow CLE and move DEN service over to CLE, add MCO for EWY and SJU and future connections:

Southwest does have a past in the CLE-MCO market. As recently as Spring of last year there was a Saturday only non-stop. Not sure how long it stuck around but it wasn't too prolonged IIRC and Saturday only DTW-MCO was also announced at the same time. There was also non-stop service until August of 2009 on CLE-MCO ( I believe this was daily and started sometime in 2006 or after).



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 9904 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 29):
They are at roughly 14 daily flights and always have been.

WN used to fly to STL, too, and run 7x to BWI. I think they operated around 20 dailies ~ 10 years ago.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 6
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 9886 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 31):
WN used to fly to STL, too, and run 7x to BWI. I think they operated around 20 dailies ~ 10 years ago.

Yep, CLE was around 20 daily for years. CLE-PHX was also operated Saturday only for a short time. LAS has also come and went many times with everything from daily service to Saturday only and now daily seasonal. Worth noting as well is how MDW and BWI have always remained strong markets over the years (makes sense I suppose).

Here's some more CLE history (hope I'm not boring you guys on all this WN history in CLE):

- Service started 2/13/92 with 6x MDW 4x STL

- Additional MDW-CLE flight added 7/13/92

- 5x BWI-CLE added 9/15/93

- Service started BNA-CLE on 12/1/95

- Icelandair marketing partnership (not codeshare) began 1/22/97. This was the only "test station".

- CLE-LAS Saturday only added 1/14/99

Snapshots of routes out of CLE over the years following. Please keep in mind there may of been slightly less frequencies on Saturday/Sunday:

6/11/2000:

6x BWI
8x MDW
4x BNA
3x STL
1x LAS - Saturday only
Total of 21 weekday departures

10/27/02:

5x BWI
7x MDW
4x BNA
4x STL
1x PHX - Saturday only
Total of 20 weekday departures

6/8/03:

5x BWI
8x MDW
4x BNA
3x STL
1x LAS - Saturday only
Total of 20 weekday departures

2005:

5x BWI
8x MDW
4x BNA
2x STL
1x LAS (daily this time)
Total of 20 weekday departures

2007:

4x BWI
7x MDW
2x STL
2x BNA
2x MCO
1x LAS
Total of 18 weekday departures

Summer of 2013:

7x MDW
4x BWI
2x BNA
1x LAS
Total of 14 weekday departures



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 9857 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 29):
They are at roughly 14 daily flights and always have been.

That's not true at all. Up until recently they were up over 20 flights a day and had been since the '90s. 14/day is an all time low for WN at CLE.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 9614 times:

Quote:
Quoting Flytravel (Reply 27):
Many likely don't check fares to CAK.
Quoting as739x:
Many as in who?

I certainly don't. I support CLE as a hub. CAK actively tries to pull pax from CLE, thereby weakening it as hub--and thus weakening the entire region which would ultimately hurt CAK as well. I won't support that behavior. If a fare to/from CLE is really crazy, I may look at PIT, but CAK never even comes to mind.


User currently offlineskycub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 9556 times:

Quoting iowaman (Reply 32):
Total of 21 weekday departures
Quoting N766UA (Reply 33):
That's not true at all. Up until recently they were up over 20 flights a day and had been since the '90s. 14/day is an all time low for WN at CLE.

Yes....and that with FOUR gates.

 


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 9334 times:

Quoting skycub (Reply 35):
Yes....and that with FOUR gates.

Yeah, it's a shame, they're not even close to half capacity at this point.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 34):
f a fare to/from CLE is really crazy, I may look at PIT

PIT actively tries to pull pax from CLE too, haven't you seen the billboards?

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 34):
I support CLE as a hub.

So do I, but there's no way I'm supporting 700$ to fly to New York or 500$ to Boston. If UA doesn't want to give me a realistic price, I'm going to CAK.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 36):

So do I, but there's no way I'm supporting 700$ to fly to New York or 500$ to Boston. If UA doesn't want to give me a realistic price, I'm going to CAK.

It is interesting to see what is going on with the NYC flight prices. When it was UA/AA, it was $1000 for midweek flights and $400-700 on weekends, but UA offered weekly specials for $140 nearly every week. DL entered and we were at $200 for weekends for a few months. Now it is back to high levels again...crazy. I know we didn't go to NYC last week due to the price and my friends went via CAK for $250 which I gladly would have paid at CLE. Clearly they have capacity if they are offering the weekend deals, not sure if the regular consumer is willing to pay $400+ to go to NYC via CLE.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 25):
Nice additions to the CLE market. F9 generally offers some cheap connections to the west through DEN.

What is F9's plan? They do not offer daily service (at least when I looked). Not sure they can sustain a following with 4 weekly flights. I know I am thankful they are in the market as I was able to grab CLE>DEN on UA for $230.


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 9236 times:

Quoting N766UA:
PIT actively tries to pull pax from CLE too, haven't you seen the billboards?

Actually, I've never really flown out of PIT in lieu of CLE--its something I might do if I had the six hours (RT) (plus gas money) to lose. Instead, I have postponed trips til prices become more reasonable. I know, not everyone can do that. But driving all the way down to CAK truly is something that doesn't enter my mind, til I see it on kayak sometimes when I search for "CLE" and they give you surrounding airports (including SWF for LGA).

I agree NYC for $1k is ridiculous. We need Virgin or something to fly CLE-JFK....

I guess PIT is much less of a threat to CLE as its so far away---just a few miles farther than Detroit.

[Edited 2012-11-23 06:49:37]

User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 9229 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 29):

Not a chance! I have no idea why you think this. WN has always been and will continue to be small at CLE.
WN can grow at CLE even while still keeping CLE a small station for them. HOU and MCO would link CLE to the new destination places they want pax to travel to via 1-stop, along with competing on O&D to major markets/destinations not over 1500 miles.

Quoting as739x (Reply 29):
To now compete with UA and F9 again, why would they do that? They own CAK-DEN

Ok. But, WN also links DEN to every major market (and a primary airport of the market) in the east and midwest, including MSP, IND, PIT, CMH, BDL, IAD and RDU, along with competing against two others from BOS and PHL (which both once had F9), and three from DTW. The other exception being CLT which doesn't get DEN when WN opens there.

[Edited 2012-11-23 07:24:09]

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 9094 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 37):
It is interesting to see what is going on with the NYC flight prices. When it was UA/AA, it was $1000 for midweek flights and $400-700 on weekends, but UA offered weekly specials for $140 nearly every week. DL entered and we were at $200 for weekends for a few months. Now it is back to high levels again...crazy.

As the airline industry devolves to four players, you aren't going to see the discount fares of prior years. The competition will be very gentle, aimed solely at bumping up volume - not at stealing market share.

Personally, I think the govt. never should have allowed the Delta and United mergers. They just invented two more companies that are now "too big

Different subject:

On the possibility of WN growth, I think CLE will see DEN or MCI service whenever WN maxes out capacity at MDW



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineswacle From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 373 posts, RR: 1
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 8998 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 29):
Not a chance! I have no idea why you think this. WN has always been and will continue to be small at CLE. They are at roughly 14 daily flights and always have been. Unless UA closes its doors in CLE next week I don't think you are seeing WN add any CLE service.

A pretty good breakdown of WN service at CLE was given above, but we did peak at 22 weekday departures in the 1999-2001 time frame with 8 MDW, 6 BWI, and 4 each to BNA and STL. For a while we had 1x LAS and 1x PHX daily, and for a short time (2 years?) we had 2x daily MCO. Now the PHX is gone, LAS is seasonal, and MCO is Saturday only for 4-5 weeks in March during Spring Break. We are normally at 11 departures during the dead of winter, 12-13 in the spring and fall, and 14 in the summer.

I am still holding out hope that CAK's ATL service transfers to CLE and we add a DEN and/or MCO in the future...

Don



Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3130 posts, RR: 4
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 8969 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 39):

Actually, I've never really flown out of PIT in lieu of CLE--its something I might do if I had the six hours (RT)
Quoting greenair727 (Reply 39):

I guess PIT is much less of a threat to CLE as its so far away---just a few miles farther than Detroit.

PIT is barely two hours from downtown Cleveland, and about 40 minutes closer than DTW.



FLYi
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 8970 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 36):
there's no way I'm supporting 700$ to fly to New York or 500$ to Boston. If UA doesn't want to give me a realistic price, I'm going to CAK.

and I'm driving when possible like so many others due to the exhorbitant CLE airfares vs. the value of a diminishing travel time savings between the two choices, especially if considering CAK or PIT.

Of course, longer distance travel is usually worth flying especially if you're OK with adding several hours of travel time by using connecting hubs vs. any uncompetitive UA CLE nonstop fares.


User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 8968 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 43):
PIT is barely two hours from downtown Cleveland, and about 40 minutes closer than DTW.

Agreed, I've driven from near CLE airport to Pittsburgh in approximately 2 hrs. several times


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week ago) and read 8910 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 39):
its something I might do if I had the six hours (RT) (plus gas money) to lose

Unless you live way out past Sandusky there's no reason PIT would take 6 hours round trip. Southwest suburbs to PIT is easily doable in an hour and 45, add maybe 25 minutes if you're out in Lorain county somewhere.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8818 times:

^ok, point taken! PIT is not so far away--just shows that I haven't done it... But I'm sure gas + time + parking (assuming you take the train, taxi, or get dropped off at CLE) add up and make the PIT/CAK price higher. my only point is that I never really consider CAK an option, and also never think about WN as they don't appear in Kayak and other aggregate sites that I use to compare airfares.

Quoting COSPN:
CO now UA has some deal with CLE to have right of resusal for BKL they get the chance to serve the route before BKL can be used by others...so if airline B wants to run BKL-LGA the UA gets first crack if they refuse then B can start BKL-LGA.

That's quite a good deal that UA has got.


User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8761 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 46):
uoting COSPN:
CO now UA has some deal with CLE to have right of resusal for BKL they get the chance to serve the route before BKL can be used by others...so if airline B wants to run BKL-LGA the UA gets first crack if they refuse then B can start BKL-LGA.

That's quite a good deal that UA has got.

Nothing but the best for UA devotion, courtesy of CLE!!!   


User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 673 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8641 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 38):
We need Virgin or something to fly CLE-JFK...

I couldn't agree more. In Delta's case the main connection in the afternoon for CLE- JFK passengers making early international flights out of JFK is a single 50 passenger Pinnacle CRJ, flight 4177. This flight originates out of MSP and if there is an inbound delay to CLE or any weather at JFK, those international flight reservations are ancient history. Last summer I was among sixty-something passengers attempting to board this 50 passenger aircraft to JFK after a morning flight had been cancelled. One wonders why Delta can't schedule an A-319 or Mad Dog on this route that Pan Am and TWA once flew with Boeing 727-200s and Boeing 707-320s.

CLE-JFK is a vital link for Cleveland passengers traveling to Europe now that there is no nonstop service to London.


User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2017 posts, RR: 3
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8617 times:

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 48):
Quoting greenair727 (Reply 38):We need Virgin or something to fly CLE-JFK...I couldn't agree more. In Delta's case the main connection in the afternoon for CLE- JFK passengers making early international flights out of JFK is a single 50 passenger Pinnacle CRJ, flight 4177. This flight originates out of MSP and if there is an inbound delay to CLE or any weather at JFK, those international flight reservations are ancient history. Last summer I was among sixty-something passengers attempting to board this 50 passenger aircraft to JFK after a morning flight had been cancelled. One wonders why Delta can't schedule an A-319 or Mad Dog on this route that Pan Am and TWA once flew with Boeing 727-200s and Boeing 707-320s. CLE-JFK is a vital link for Cleveland passengers traveling to Europe now that there is no nonstop service to London.

CO used to do this route, along with IAH-JFK. Both gone.


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8517 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 49):
CO used to do this route, along with IAH-JFK. Both gone.

I'm surprised UA does not run 1x daily like DL to connect to LH on the TATL JV flights. What does AA run to JFK these days?

On a different topic, why can't CLE get the gas station built at the parking center? Annoyed every time I use it.


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6097 posts, RR: 23
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8459 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 34):
CAK actively tries to pull pax from CLE, thereby weakening it as hub--and thus weakening the entire region

It's in the same region last I checked. It's call airport competition. The economy in the Midwest and airlines realigning have weakened CLE has a hub.

Do you see MEM/CVG/PIT blaming nearby airports for weakening them as a hub?

Fact is, if fares into CAK ar cheaper and it works the passengers, they will fly to CAK.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlinejetskipper From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days ago) and read 8480 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 50):

Lufthansa operates twice daily service to FRA and daily service to both MUC and DUS from ORD and EWR. There is no point in UA starting a CLE to JFK flight to connect to LH when LH only offers FRA service from JFK.


User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days ago) and read 8468 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 51):
The economy in the Midwest and airlines realigning have weakened CLE has a hub.

Please see reply #1

Quoting as739x (Reply 51):
Do you see MEM/CVG/PIT blaming nearby airports for weakening them as a hub?

One person's simple comment does not equal the entire MEM/CVG/PIT population base nor that of CLE's for "blaming"


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8405 times:

as739x---I wasn't 'blaming' anyone---just stating that CAK's policy undermines the strength of its own region.

User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8128 times:

At what point do we know if the CLE>SEA flight is happening or not for summer 2013? Headed that way and will hold off booking if it makes sense. I know UA has pulled a lot of capacity from SEA so not sure if CLE will even get a flight.

User currently offlineusa330300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8042 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
It previously had to fly non-revs to get the aircraft to CLE.

They weren't non-revs. The ferried the aircraft with a working crew.


User currently offlineatct From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2272 posts, RR: 38
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7813 times:

As a former Pittsburgher I find it funny that ya'll would think of driving to PIT for cheaper fares. For 20 years it was the other way around.

atct



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7413 times:

What would be the impact, if any, of an AA-US merger on CLE, which now looks like it may become a reality, both in terms of the combined airline's service at CLE and the impact of the merger on UA and other airlines and their operations/plans at CLE?

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 59, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7273 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 58):
What would be the impact, if any, of an AA-US merger on CLE

Near-term, I think a combination of the two would simply be additive. Medium-term, the survivor (called AA, I guess) might want to add CLE to its DCA hub with PHL and CLT losing a flight in the process.

I keep trying to think of a way AA might try CLE-LHR with a 757, but it's hard to believe that route would be anywhere on AA's must-do list without a subsidy being offered.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7241 times:

^ Would the combined airline (if it happens) remain in OneWorld? Its interesting you mention LHR, I was trying to think of a way for BA to serve the route, thinking that outside of UA, BA would be more likely than AA or anyone else...

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 61, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7207 times:

One World is pretty much a sure thing for any future AA. The problem with BA serving CLE is its smallest transatlantic plane is loaded with 48 business and premium economy seats, too many for the CLE market, I suspect. Any LHR flight would have to be an AA 757, assuming hub connections only on the European end. Even so, the economics are not promising; AA would need to be stuck with a lot of excess planes to even think about it.

CLE's best hope for transatlantic service remains UA, but UA does not seem to be in a giving mood despite the season. Traffic at CLE continues to drop, although only very slightly this year; it's hard for an outsider to tell how much of the fall off is connecting passengers and how much is O&D. Either way, that needs to stop.

A subsidy offer (as with Pittsburgh and Delta) could change everything, of course.

Edit: Good news. The Feds say the CLE area unemployment rate has dropped to 6.1% Before the 1990's, the government used to call 5% 'full employment'.

[Edited 2012-12-08 11:39:09]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 1
Reply 62, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7154 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 61):
A subsidy offer (as with Pittsburgh and Delta) could change everything, of course.

Anyone know what kind of subsidy this was and the term of it? Assume landing fees were waived + $?

On the AA/US side, we'd have MIA, DFW, JFK, LGA, ORD, CLT, PHL. As mentioned: Possible returns DCA, PHX or perhaps even some competition on LAX? Would at least give some bright spot for Concourse A to be cleaned up.

As a result of consolidation, any chance that DL or AA/US reopen club lounges at CLE?

Additionally, after some pretty impactful and customer facing changes in his first few years, our airport director has been pretty quiet lately. What's his next move?


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6966 times:

Quoting fun2fly:
As a result of consolidation, any chance that DL or AA/US reopen club lounges at CLE?

Perhaps the AA club. Combined with US, they'd have more pax than DL-NW, no? If they'd want to draw away some business from UA, that may be a small piece in the puzzle.

Quoting fun2fly:
Additionally, after some pretty impactful and customer facing changes in his first few years, our airport director has been pretty quiet lately. What's his next move?

Yeah, he has been pretty quiet, relative to before. Hopefully he's working on something good, like the FIS or a new int'l route....and not his resume!

Quoting MasseyBrown:
A subsidy offer (as with Pittsburgh and Delta) could change everything, of course.

Looking at O&D alone, are there a lot of business in the city with operations/offices in London? I believe there are few Dutch companies in the city, lending viability of an AMS route...... Also, TATL routes benefit both end cities, so any subsidy need not only be from CLE, but from LHR/AMS as well.


User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 476 posts, RR: 1
Reply 64, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6792 times:

I suppose this is a closely guarded secret but does anyone have any info on how yields have changed at CLE. I just can't get over airfares, I have relatives visiting from Boston in March for a wedding and they are basically saying at the current prices they won't be visiting. RIght now $475 for a Friday-Sunday r/t in March, preposterous. Airtran is a little better to CAK but not much. I'm trying to convince them that the PIT drive is not so bad.

So anyway, yields must be skyrocketing, UA to me is not even pricing for a leisure market anymore.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 65, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6753 times:

Yields for Q2, 2012 in CLE and nearby cities

CLE 23.7 cents/mile
STL 22.4
MKE 17.1
CVG 30.09
BUF 18.7
DTW 21.32
PIT 20.9

I'm leaving out length of haul considerations which make CLE disproportionately higher than some other places, but the difference isn't huge.

In Q2, 2011 CLE yield was 20.5 cents, so that's up 16% in a year.

[Edited 2012-12-09 19:01:20]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 66, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6709 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 62):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 61):
A subsidy offer (as with Pittsburgh and Delta) could change everything, of course.

Anyone know what kind of subsidy this was and the term of it? Assume landing fees were waived + $?

I believe it was some sort of revenue guarantee that could be tapped into if the flight's performance fell below a specified level/measure.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 61):
CLE's best hope for transatlantic service remains UA

I'd say AA as well if they ever start taking better advantage of their j/v with BA. I think a CLE-LHR on an AA 757 would work nicely.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 63):
Also, TATL routes benefit both end cities, so any subsidy need not only be from CLE, but from LHR/AMS as well.

I'm sorry, but no I don't think that would ever happen, nor has it happened before. Cities like London, Paris or Amsterdam couldn't care less about ponying up money for routes to PIT, CLE or BDL, and why would they when they already have such excellent TATL connections? Have you ever heard of the city of New York or Newark putting up a subsidy for a specific route? Any subsidy money for a potential TATL route would have to come squarely from the regional governments of Cleveland.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 67, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6648 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 66):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 61):
CLE's best hope for transatlantic service remains UA

I'd say AA as well if they ever start taking better advantage of their j/v with BA. I think a CLE-LHR on an AA 757 would work nicely.

AA is intriguing, especially since they once had a mini-hub in CLE in the 70's; but I'm sure those days are long forgotten in today's AA schedule shop.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6636 times:

^ That's interesting; I never knew that. So was CLE a major UA hub AND an AA mini hub at the same time? What years were the AA hub?

If anything, CLE is a natural hub city:

60's, 70's---UA (and mini AA in the 70's)
80s--US Air (mini hub)
90-present---CO/UA


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 1
Reply 69, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6594 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 66):
I'd say AA as well if they ever start taking better advantage of their j/v with BA. I think a CLE-LHR on an AA 757 would work nicely.

It's an interesting proposal...if you are the AA / OW sales person in CLE/Northeast Ohio, you basically have nothing to offer that is more appealing to a CLE based company than UA (TATL, APAC, LATAM, and direct routes) and about the same as DL. The only way to leapfrog any of the other two is by providing something like a LHR route w/signficant onward connections to the corporations. I wonder if the CDG flight in PIT has allowed DL to increase marketshare?


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6526 times:

If AA had a CLE-LHR, I'd abandon my UA loyalty in an instant for all trips to LHR. And I'd likely start looking at AA more for other routes as well where they compete with UA in Cleveland (like NYC).

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 71, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6468 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 68):
That's interesting; I never knew that. So was CLE a major UA hub AND an AA mini hub at the same time? What years were the AA hub?

Not exactly ... 'hubs' (except for ATL) before deregulation were not as disciplined and omnidirectional as we think of them today.

AA built up CLE in 1965 after they won a CLE-NYC route, breaking the years-long UA monopoly that resulted from the Capital merger. With 36 dailies, they batched flights to create a minihub with 3 or 4 flights banked. Eastbound, the went to BOS, BUF, ROC, LGA, and JFK; westbound to CMH, DAY, CVG, BNA, STL, DFW, and LAX. With time they added BDL and ALB in the east and IAH, PHX, SAN, and SFO to the west while shrinking the intra-Ohio flying, with peak operations totaling about 45 or so dailies including lots of 707's and a few DC-10's.

UA had a more robust hub at the time, but it was a looser and smaller hub (about 65-70 dailies) than we think of today. UA's CLE hub grew in the regulated 70's since CLE had almost total non-stop route authorities throughout the UA system and ORD didn't, lacking any southern routes. Deregulation in 1978, which gave both AA and UA unrestricted routes out of ORD eventually undermined the need for CLE and first AA, then UA abandoned their hub operations.

Thereafter US came in in the early 80's with a hub that peaked at around 50 dailies until CO blew them away in the mid to late 80's. Along the way in the 60's and 70's NW also had a pretty good sized operation (almost 40 dailies) after they won PHL and ORD routes, breaking UA's other CA-inherited monopolies, but NW was not so much a hub operation as a lot of point-to-point.

AA and NW became popular in CLE in the 60's and 70's because UA, with monopolies to ORD, NYC, and PHL, had for years treated CLE like dirt running clapped-out "first class" DC-6's on those routes when everybody else (I.e. PIT and DTW) had all-jet mixed class flights.

And that's the history of CLE in a nutshell - as I remember it..



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 72, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6440 times:

Actually, I think that CLE had a good location for connections going between upstate Pennsylvania/a lot of New York/most of New England into the Midwest/near-upper South. But it seems that as well as the Cleveland area losing population for a while, most of the eastern cities that they provided good connections for seemed to have been losing population as well.

I think that CLE will pretty much remain status quo for the near-/mid-future time wise. I don't think that UA will want to just give up their hub here. They may cut some in favor of ORD or IAD or EWR, but why annoy a loyal and premium pax base by dehubbing, so long as UA can be pulling some $$$$ out of the area?

 


User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 839 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6392 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting joeman (Reply 16):
That's interesting cle757...can't help but wonder when a push for a new customs/FIS began. Seriously glad to know that. .

CO was working hard with CLE to get something done about the FIS facilities, including discussions to have NW move to Terminal A so they could move/add FIS near that part of Terminal C. But, the bad economy and switch to *A really put the entire concept on the backburner. It is a shame as the current facilities are awful for non-connecting passengers and are overall very outdated.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 18):
CO now UA has some deal with CLE to have right of resusal for BKL they get the chance to serve the route before BKL can be used by others...so if airline B wants to run BKL-LGA the UA gets first crack if they refuse then B can start BKL-LGA

With the exception of charters or scheduled charters as I recall. I would really love to see someone like Ultimate Air Shuttle set up service to the BOS and NYC areas

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 21):
A while back, AM had applied for and received operating authority on CLE-MEX.

It was my understanding that they were going to operate the charter service to CUN for Apple but the agreement never panned out.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 22):
The airport's debt level jumped $50 million in 2011. Does anybody know what that went for?

I think it may have been to redo the cement on Runway 10/28 (crosswind) and perhaps a contribution to the new control tower.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 42):
PIT is barely two hours from downtown Cleveland, and about 40 minutes closer than DTW.

Given the current price gouging by UA at CLE, this small business owner knows the route to PIT quite well.

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 55):
At what point do we know if the CLE>SEA flight is happening or not for summer 2013?

This usually depends on an agreement with one of the cruise lines. At one point they were running a daily 753!

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 61):
CLE's best hope for transatlantic service remains UA, but UA does not seem to be in a giving mood despite the season.



It is my belief that UACO remembers the CO hangover regarding the FIS facilities and would consider 767 service to FRA as the cargo alone would make the flight profitable. Beyond the fact that the currebt FIS facilities are like a dungeon, it was unable to easily cope with two loaded 752s and became a cluster when the CDG, LHR and the charter CUN flights landed around the same time. Plus, who really wants to bus premium passengers to baggage claim to avoid having them clear TSA?



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 74, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6329 times:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 73):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 22):
The airport's debt level jumped $50 million in 2011. Does anybody know what that went for?

I think it may have been to redo the cement on Runway 10/28 (crosswind) and perhaps a contribution to the new control tower.

Thanks. I thought the Feds covered all runway and tower costs, but maybe not. Wasn't a new FIS under C Concourse priced at $3-5 million? That might be a worthwhile investment for the airport to undertake on its own, provided gate C3 or C4 could become 'common use'.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 839 posts, RR: 1
Reply 75, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6278 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 74):
Thanks. I thought the Feds covered all runway and tower costs, but maybe not. Wasn't a new FIS under C Concourse priced at $3-5 million? That might be a worthwhile investment for the airport to undertake on its own, provided gate C3 or C4 could become 'common use'.

Well they also did a lot of improvement to Terminal C, so maybe some went there as well. I agree that a new FIS seems like a worthwhile investment, but thought I'd heard rumors that other airlines wanted it more centrally located and that it would eventually go to where the current control tower resides. Regardless of where they put the damn thing, just get it done already. Connecting through EWR is a freaking nightmare of delays and IAD requires a marathon of walking....



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineCoairman From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6259 times:

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 48):

I think UA out of CLE pretty much dominates European travel via UA's massive hubs via EWR, IAD and ORD only an hour flight away. CLE-JFK traffic is redundant.



Patience Can Be A Virtue.
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3130 posts, RR: 4
Reply 77, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6239 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 62):

Anyone know what kind of subsidy this was and the term of it? Assume landing fees were waived $?

2 year revenue guarantee - $5 million the first year, $4 million the second year. Each year's guarantee was divided in two equal halves - a public (state taxpayer) portion and a private portion (local corporations). The private portion was to be exhausted first. Landing fees were waived for the first year.

The first year (2009) used the complete $5 million revenue guarantee. Remember, this was the height of the GFC.

Unlike the first year in which both the public and private portions of the subsidy were exhausted, the second year of the program didn't use any public funds at all and only took a portion of the private half of the program. The private portion of the subsidy program consisted of a coalition of corporations, and the amount they actually did dip into for 2010 was never made public.

PIT-CDG has operated on a seasonal basis without any subsidy program for the past 2 years.








At first glance this sort of arrangement would seem to be CLE's best bet to lure European service. But lets look at the big 3 European markets (FRA/CDG/LHR) from CLE:

FRA on UA would be a hub to hub route, there is no reason it shouldn't have good loads on a 757. However, if UA were interested they would be doing it by now, with or without subsidy. Bottom line with all their other gateways, it seems like they are content with routing CLE pax over these gateways.

CDG on DL may work, but I see one issue. With PIT only 1 1/2 hour down the highway and drawing passengers from Ohio, I think DL may have a legitimate concern about cannibalizing its existing route from the region to CDG.

That leaves us with AA to LHR, IMHO CLE's best option for service to Europe. But until AA uses its ATI with BA to serve mid sized US cities, its a moot point.

Then consider that the local business community is being urged to fly United to help keep the CLE hub, so that doesn't help AA or DL.


Historically CLE's longest lasting service to Europe has been with scheduled charters (JAT, Condor) due to its eastern European population. Condor served CLE in the past, perhaps the airport authority should partner with local travel agencies and tour groups to make it a priority to lure them back. Perhaps in partnership with PIT (who is also after them) on a triangular routing or tag. Seasonal 2x weekly kind of thing.



FLYi
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 78, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6184 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 77):
FRA on UA would be a hub to hub route, there is no reason it shouldn't have good loads on a 757.

The trouble is a 757 can't fly CLE-FRA reliably - there would be a LOT of one-stop flights if they tried. Meanwhile UA is getting rid of their comparably-sized 762's as fast as they can and a 763 would be harder to fill.

DL would probably insist on PIT-like terms.

Which brings us back to AA and LHR. Since LHR is CLE's biggest European market, the subsidy need would probably be less than DL to CDG. But would AA want to do it even with a subsidy? There's a lot of distractions at AA these days. I wonder if Ricky Smith could even get their attention.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6153 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown:
AA built up CLE in 1965 after they won a CLE-NYC route....

Thanks, Massey, for that great bit of history.

Quoting mbm3:
It is my belief that UACO remembers the CO hangover regarding the FIS facilities and would consider 767 service to FRA as the cargo alone would make the flight profitable. Beyond the fact that the currebt FIS facilities are like a dungeon, it was unable to easily cope with two loaded 752s and became a cluster when the CDG, LHR and the charter CUN flights landed around the same time. Plus, who really wants to bus premium passengers to baggage claim to avoid having them clear TSA?

I have never flown into the US via CLE. Are you saying that once you clear INS/Customs, you exit the FIS into the non-secure side of the airport on the baggage level?

Quoting PITrules:
Historically CLE's longest lasting service to Europe has been with scheduled charters (JAT, Condor) due to its eastern European population.

JAT was a charter? I thought it was scheduled service.


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 1
Reply 80, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6096 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 74):
The airport's debt level jumped $50 million in 2011. Does anybody know what that went for?

That's some expensive terrazzo.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 78):
The trouble is a 757 can't fly CLE-FRA reliably - there would be a LOT of one-stop flights if they tried. Meanwhile UA is getting rid of their comparably-sized 762's as fast as they can and a 763 would be harder to fill.

For CLE alone, 30 BF seats on a 214 seat 763 would be hard to fill unless UA routes premium traffic over CLE which they certainly could if they wanted to help the flight out in addition to FRA offers significant LH and Star connections. LH simply does not have anything that small to use the TATL JV aspect. For UA, adding this flight would have to increase marketshare. They already have a good piece of the pie. So why do it? Additionally, carriers are cutting TATL capacity in 2013 and Europe's economy is not doing great. Post Greece crisis and German elections...maybe 2014?

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 74):
Wasn't a new FIS under C Concourse priced at $3-5 million? That might be a worthwhile investment for the airport to undertake on its own, provided gate C3 or C4 could become 'common use'.

Right, just get it done Ricky for all of us that have stayed at the Newark Ramada courtesy of CO/UA when we missed our TATL connections.


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6051 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Thread starter):
- They aren't pulling out as everyone on a.net predicted.


Here is one thing to keep in mind. UA is still very early in their integration process, possibly even behind schedule due to some of their integration issues. The impacts of the merger on CLE are still to come.

CLE is redundant in the UA system. This doesn't mean that CLE cannot support a hub, but that it is not needed in the UA system. Look at what DL did to CVG once DTW and JFK became hubs for the carrier. CLE is in the exact same situation. Also, keep in mind that once the old gas guzzling RJs are retired, CLE will most likely be heavily impacted.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 82, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5997 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 81):
CLE is redundant in the UA system. This doesn't mean that CLE cannot support a hub, but that it is not needed in the UA system. Look at what DL did to CVG once DTW and JFK became hubs for the carrier. CLE is in the exact same situation. Also, keep in mind that once the old gas guzzling RJs are retired, CLE will most likely be heavily impacted.

Hard to argue with anything you say. We've seen fans of PIT, CVG, and STL make the same arguments that the CLE proponents are making, but we know what happened to those hubs. In addition, assuming the tentative agreement UA has with its pilots passes, the scope provisions are not favorable for CLE - another reason to worry.

CLE should always have its eye out for a UA replacement - gotta have a Plan B, but no hopeless SkyBus deal like CMH please. How CMH got the State of Ohio to fund that fiasco, I'll never know.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineCoairman From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5977 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 81):

Totally agreed. Hub optimization has a long way to go. One example is the only way to get to FNT and ERI on UA is via CLE and the only way to get to LAN and YXU is is via ORD. Essentially we are running the old pre-merger CO Routes and UA Routes 2 years following the merger. There will be many route changes to come and the labor integration has stalled the optimization in my opinion.

I am guessing the new pilot contract, if voted in, could hurt CLE, especially the new scope clause.



Patience Can Be A Virtue.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5916 times:

^what does the new scope clause say (that would impact CLE)?

User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3130 posts, RR: 4
Reply 85, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5917 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 79):
JAT was a charter? I thought it was scheduled service.

I have a timetable for 1990 which shows scheduled and charter flights. CLE/DTW/PIT are shown in the charter section only.



FLYi
User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 839 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5896 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 78):
The trouble is a 757 can't fly CLE-FRA reliably - there would be a LOT of one-stop flights if they tried. Meanwhile UA is getting rid of their comparably-sized 762's as fast as they can and a 763 would be harder to fill.

Yes, the 763 is a challenge to fill but it my understanding that the cargo currently being trucked to other hubs would pay for the flight.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 79):
I have never flown into the US via CLE. Are you saying that once you clear INS/Customs, you exit the FIS into the non-secure side of the airport on the baggage level?

No, the opposite, all PAX are required to reclear TSA as the exit of FIS takes you airside. It is a royal PITA for those not connecting onward.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 82):
Hard to argue with anything you say. We've seen fans of PIT, CVG, and STL make the same arguments that the CLE proponents are making, but we know what happened to those hubs. In addition, assuming the tentative agreement UA has with its pilots passes, the scope provisions are not favorable for CLE - another reason to worry.

As positive, CLE does have the very low cost and very high efficiency that made it the darling of the CO system. The cost of living here has to be one of the lowest of all of the hubs, plus the City is very airline friendly as of late. Time will tell....



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 87, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5864 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 84):
^what does the new scope clause say (that would impact CLE)?

It provides for a large but limited number of 70 and 76 seat RJs, while encouraging UA to dump the 50 seaters. The allowed 70 and 76 seaters matches DL's number of airframes, but DL isn't trying to operate 10 hubs. The bigger planes will likely be sucked up by the bigger hubs leaving not much for CLE. It won't happen immediately, but in two years, the UA system necessarily have to look different as lots of 50-seaters go away.

CLE's challenge, as always, will be to deliver enough passengers to make the investment in new planes worthwhile. So it's important that the area's reviving economy and growth deliver the numbers. CLE's reviving economy (unemployment down to 6.1%) is a plus, but growth will be tough. The latest numbers say area population has *almost* stopped shrinking, but there's no plus sign yet. Business traffic will rise, but will it rise enough?



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5691 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 87):
Business traffic will rise, but will it rise enough?

Obviously, CLE isn't going to grow too much via its northeast Ohio population which means it needs more people to come to CLE. Not a lot of people are just going to sign up for that (leave the jokes for other forums). Sure there are things like NCAA tourney's that have small sparks, but sustainable growth is needed. I don't think that the casino will help. Any estimate on what the convention center / medical mart could really mean in terms of PAX?

On the business front, there are always blips that seem to help PAX growth: With Eaton's informal HQ in CLE and its new tax driven HQ in Ireland, I'd have to say that's a few planes full of TATL traffic growth right there. Sherwin Williams just added a new acquistion in MEX, etc.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 89, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5658 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 88):
Obviously, CLE isn't going to grow too much via its northeast Ohio population

Never say never. If you look at current population estimates, the area is pretty stable over the last couple of years. I wouldn't be surprised if 2013 produces a small but real gain for the NEO area - the city itself will need a little longer.

That said, it appears UA is cutting PVD and MHT after Christmas to 2 flights and keeping them there even after the usual February schedule returns. I think, as posted in another thread, that BOS is pulling pax back from those two alternative airports. It's worth noting UA added a 737 CLE-BOS within the past few months after a couple years of all RJs.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5440 times:

2x daily UA flights to BNA begin soon on 19 Dec. ERJ service, I think.

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 91, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5394 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 89):
I think, as posted in another thread, that BOS is pulling pax back from those two alternative airports

If that's the case, why is BOS all ERJ's?

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 89):
It's worth noting UA added a 737 CLE-BOS within the past few months after a couple years of all RJs.

Whoopdee doo, it used to be 100% mainline jets. The entirety of New England, BOS/MHT/PVD and to a lesser extent PWM and BTV, is underserved from CLE. To have one of the most populated parts of the country, an area with huge amounts of business, medical, and education-related traffic, served by all ERJs and one 737 is pathetic. That's what, 12 F class seats a day to an entire region?

JetBlue should get in there and steal away the pax who want to fly on a real airplane.

[Edited 2012-12-14 12:55:39]


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5018 times:

When will CLE get the update United Club? Will it still be in the same location?

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16820 posts, RR: 51
Reply 93, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4829 times:

Were the previous flights to London (LGW, LHR) and CDG receiving any local incentives? If not is that something the State , local Government would consider?


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4651 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 93):
Were the previous flights to London (LGW, LHR) and CDG receiving any local incentives? If not is that something the State , local Government would consider?

No. Maybe some guarantees of use by local companies at best. State and local gov have already bent over time and again for nothing but reduction from CO and post merger...same....thinking they've learned a lesson despite a push for preservation of the so called "hub", a likely smokescreen in of itself for the time being, just like the airline itself, pre and post merger has done for over a decade.

Can't believe I had my first real life experience thru a friend just today, of a CLE bound person travelling via PIT, then the 2 hour drive, not from a PIT-CDG routing either, thanks to the high airfares CLE airlines offer in exchange for all of Ricky Smith efforts to raise revenue by other means and reduce operating fees to the CLE airlines.

All I can think of is..add more flights to the U.S. megahubs...ORD to CLT, build more infrastructure and expense, basically the only thing to read about on this forum the last few years anyway except nostalgia and a couple new aircraft types in service


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 95, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4571 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 93):
Were the previous flights to London (LGW, LHR) and CDG receiving any local incentives? If not is that something the State , local Government would consider?

My recollection is that when British Petroleum left Cleveland (a condition of the BP-Amoco merger and a mistaken concession to Amoco's mediocre management ), CO asked for a subsidy to operate a year-round flight and the civic parties refused. Thereupon the flight was reduced to seasonal. A second request was made sometime after 2001 - can't remember exactly when - and the civic parties said no again. CO continued the flight seasonally anyway.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1025 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4258 times:

Heard on the radio this AM on the drive in, UA is cancelling 60% of their flights after noon today (12/26) due to 6-12" of snow/blizzard. Perfectly clear at 9AM. Is this some news reporter error or is it that common to cancel so many flights based on what the weather man predicts? In Cleveland, if I followed what the weather man said, I'd never leave my house as we've has so many "the storm path changed" explanations just after the "storm of all storms" didn't occur.

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 97, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

This probably has as much to do with weather and airports east of CLE as with CLE itself, which is generally very good at wx recovery.

Speaking of the airport, I wish they would publish monthly travel numbers as regularly as other airports do. I would like to think they are seeing year-over-year traffic growth since June, but it's impossible to say exactly using only readily available data. Since June the trailing twelve month data show steadily decreasing declines in pax, which could and probably does mean actual growth in recent months, but I can't prove it.   



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineAquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4072 times:

Slightly OT,
what is now the best Airport to connect to Ohio (possibly South) from EU?
In the past I have successfully used Cincinnati ( I believe direct from CDG) but what about nowadays?
CLE seems out of discussion even given I usually rent a good car.



chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 99, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3796 times:

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 98):
what is now the best Airport to connect to Ohio (possibly South) from EU?

Depends on what airline you prefer to fly, but, honestly, probably DTW.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 100, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days ago) and read 3655 times:

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 98):
what is now the best Airport to connect to Ohio (possibly South) from EU?

Boston, Detroit, or DC, probably. New York is awful for connections (or anything else for that matter), and CVG and CLE have very limited/no opportunities for nonstop flights.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 101, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days ago) and read 3655 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 96):

Heard on the radio this AM on the drive in, UA is cancelling 60% of their flights after noon today (12/26) due to 6-12" of snow/blizzard. Perfectly clear at 9AM. Is this some news reporter error or is it that common to cancel so many flights based on what the weather man predicts? In Cleveland, if I followed what the weather man said, I'd never leave my house as we've has so many "the storm path changed" explanations just after the "storm of all storms" didn't occur.

Cleveland isn't the only hub in UA's system. Unfortunately, the weather impacted ORD, IAD, and NYC as well, not to mention the ripple effect from earlier in the day. Cleveland is just one stop of many in a day for any individual jet, so when you disrupt an entire section of a network like that, you're going to get large numbers of cancellations.

It's the same as when people go "but it's perfectly sunny outside, why is my flight cancelled?!" It just ain't all about you!



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 102, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3486 times:

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 98):
what is now the best Airport to connect to Ohio (possibly South) from EU?
In the past I have successfully used Cincinnati ( I believe direct from CDG) but what about nowadays?

Depends on whether or not you're looking to drive, as you said you did before, or fly and to where in Ohio. DL still flies to CDG daily from CVG, so that may be the most hassle-free itinerary if you don't mind renting a car and driving from there.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
What's Going On In JFK/BOS? posted Mon Sep 24 2012 23:48:06 by YYZatcboy
What's Going On In PIT - Part 17 posted Sat Mar 27 2010 20:42:19 by SA7700
What's Going On In This Photo? posted Thu Mar 11 2010 09:58:24 by sandyb123
What's Going On In PIT - Part 16 posted Fri Dec 4 2009 12:25:33 by Jayeshrulz
What's Going On In PIT - Part 15 posted Mon Sep 28 2009 19:10:05 by NWADC9
What's Going On In PIT - Part 14 posted Wed Aug 26 2009 15:02:20 by NWADC9
What's Going On In PIT - Part 13 posted Wed Jul 15 2009 20:25:15 by Kubus
What's Going On In PIT - Part 12 posted Wed Jun 3 2009 15:29:40 by NWADC9
What's Going On In PIT Part 9 posted Sat Feb 7 2009 19:00:53 by NWADC9
What's Going On In PIT Part 8 posted Tue Oct 7 2008 17:43:45 by NWADC9