Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3230 posts, RR: 2 Posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1840 times:
With all the disturbing news about SAS future this weekend, it is nice to read that pilots and cabincrew are in good spirit and hands on:
As the SAS flight from Alicante to Stavanger prepared for it's take off from the Spanish resort town, there appeared a problem that is usually unknown at those latitudes.
The plane had - due to uncertainty about the SAS's future - full wing tanks with fuel when it landed in Alicante. The low temperature in altitude meant that the fuel was very cold, so that ice had formed on the wings.
The captain requisitioned car with ladder. Since there is no de-icing equipment at the airport in Alicante, The necessary alcohol was removed from the aircraft's own holdings. After the captain had personally de-iced wings by spraying three bottles of whiskey on each wing, the ice finally dissapeared. The plane could take off, 1 hour and 20 minutes late with a nice smell of Whiskey in the cabin ...
According to a passenger on the flight:
- There was a good atmosphere in the plane. We were informed that the whiskey was consumed. So if someone wanted a drink on the trip, they had to make do with gin ...
SAS pilots has now received a clear message by the managment to refuel planes completely. This is to ensure that the aircraft must have enough fuel even for the trip back from the destination, or the subsequent connection in case an emergency situation arises.
Chock-full fuel tanks was by all accounts a contributing factor to the frozen wings at the airport in Alicante.
Acey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1341 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1853 times:
I'm assuming it wasn't below freezing or precipitating on the ground? Very unorthodox yes, but if it was just frost due to cold fuel and not due to icing conditions on the ground or in flight, then I guess whatever works. I personally wouldn't have done it, but I don't think it posed much of a safety risk.
YXD172 From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 427 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1859 times:
Haha, this just made my morning, thanks for posting!
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1): I don't know how comfortable I'd be if my plane was de-iced by whiskey, no offense to the pilots. Turned out well I guess...
Ya, my gut isn't completely comfortable with it... but I really can't come up with any reason that it would be unsafe given the circumstances, so kudos to the pilot!
Radial engines don't leak oil, they are just marking their territory!
clydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1003 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1857 times:
Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter): Since there is no de-icing equipment at the airport in Alicante,
I highly doubt that this is true. It's more likely that none of the rigs were ready, which is quite a common occurence even at northern European airports when de-icing is not anticipated.
flyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1005 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1861 times:
Quoting Acey559 (Reply 2): I'm assuming it wasn't below freezing or precipitating on the ground? Very unorthodox yes, but if it was just frost due to cold fuel and not due to icing conditions on the ground or in flight, then I guess whatever works. I personally wouldn't have done it, but I don't think it posed much of a safety risk.
Quoting YXD172 (Reply 4): Ya, my gut isn't completely comfortable with it... but I really can't come up with any reason that it would be unsafe given the circumstances, so kudos to the pilot!
You guys need to look at the weather forecast for Alicante. This time of the year, it's usually about 20°C/70°F during the day and 10°C/50°F at night. There's a good reason why the airport doesn't have de-icing equipment - they don't need it.
The sort of ice that forms as a result of condensation freezing to the wing is very thin, and that whiskey would have been more than enough to melt it. Deicing fluid is nothing but alcohol anyway, so this was a creative approach to solving the problem.
Personally, the only thing I'm disappointed about is that they poured whiskey over the wings rather than the gin alluded to in the article. I can't stand gin, so I would have poured that out first!
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
amccann From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (6 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1857 times:
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 10): The sort of ice that forms as a result of condensation freezing to the wing is very thin, and that whiskey would have been more than enough to melt it. Deicing fluid is nothing but alcohol anyway, so this was a creative approach to solving the problem.
I am no chemist but can any Airliners.net member explain the differences in the chemical composition of airplane de-ice fluid and ethyl alcohol? I am a little curious if ethyl alcohol has any corrosive properties.
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 10): Personally, the only thing I'm disappointed about is that they poured whiskey over the wings rather than the gin alluded to in the article. I can't stand gin, so I would have poured that out first!
Why waste good vodka when you can pour out the gin instead?
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
Off topic, -but does anyone remember the scandal in the mid 80' when some Austrian winemakers mixed in some diethylene clycol to sweeten up some dessert wine?
Scooter01
"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
Antoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1505 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1858 times:
Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 15): Off topic, -but does anyone remember the scandal in the mid 80' when some Austrian winemakers mixed in some diethylene clycol to sweeten up some dessert wine?
I'm a bit young to remember that... but if you check the label on some pastries, forms of glycol are put in them (specifically I've seen it in store brand turnovers) as a sweet preservative.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
garpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2312 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1858 times:
Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 12): So when the pilot puts alcohol on the wings, and suppose there is a spark during the engine start, wont the wing too catch fire?
flyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1005 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (6 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1855 times:
Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 12): So when the pilot puts alcohol on the wings, and suppose there is a spark during the engine start, wont the wing too catch fire?
For one thing, because the concentration of alcohol is too low for whiskey to be flammable at that temperature.
Whiskey is usually around 45% alcohol by volume, which means the ethanol in it has a flashpoint of about 25°C (a substance's flashpoint is the minimum temperature at which it will ignite if exposed to fire, so the above means that you can get whiskey to burn if you have warmed it to at least 25°C and then put a flame to it).
For a stronger alcohol mixture, the flashpoint decreases, for a weaker alcohol mixture the flashpoint increases.
Sticking with our example of whiskey on a wing, we need to remember what the situation was. The pictures in the article were taken in the dark, so the ambient temperature was probably something like 5°C-10°C. Furthermore, the alcohol was being poured onto ice, reducing its temperature. In addition, as the whiskey melts the ice into water, the concentration of alcohol in the resulting mixture goes down, which also raises the flashpoint. I can't think of any way the alcohol could get warm enough to ignite in a situation where there is ice on the wings in the first place.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
saleya22r From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 52 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1857 times:
It was a 737-700 right? It's a 3+ hour flight, can the wing tanks be full after that? On the other hand, taking the range of the -700 into account it's possible.
One might expect this to happen more often to aircraft making shorter flights with a lot of cold fuel in the wings to airports where de-icing is not normally available.
Saleya 22R
francoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3196 posts, RR: 10 Reply 21, posted (6 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1855 times:
Can someone run by me again why management wants R/T fuel on departure from the homebase?
Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter): This is to ensure that the aircraft must have enough fuel even for the trip back from the destination, or the subsequent connection in case an emergency situation arises.
What would 'emergency situation' mean in this context? Unpaid fuel bills? Are they in such a bad way?
[Edited 2012-11-19 03:49:52]
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
AA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 357 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1857 times:
Quoting francoflier (Reply 21): Can someone run by me again why management wants R/T fuel on departure from the homebase?
My guess is that if, suddenly, SAS goes into liquidation / business shutdown and is unable to further pay to have aircraft fueled, that way the aircraft will be able to return to base.
Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
flyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1005 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (6 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1857 times:
Quoting francoflier (Reply 21): Can someone run by me again why management wants R/T fuel on departure from the homebase?
Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
This is to ensure that the aircraft must have enough fuel even for the trip back from the destination, or the subsequent connection in case an emergency situation arises.
What would 'emergency situation' mean in this context? Unpaid fuel bills? Are they in such a bad way?
In a word, yes.
Quoting AA94 (Reply 23): My guess is that if, suddenly, SAS goes into liquidation / business shutdown and is unable to further pay to have aircraft fueled, that way the aircraft will be able to return to base.
Yes, that is the reasoning behind it. If you look at the demise of Swissair, you can see what happens when suppliers no longer trust the airline to pay its bills. In the days leading up to Swissair's grounding, pilots were issued piles of cash before each flight to pay for fuel at the destination because no one would let SR buy fuel on credit anymore. By filling up at home base, you can be sure that you have enough fuel to bring the aircraft home if the airline folds.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
25 DALCE: Well this is about the only function where Jack D.'s is good for.....Hope it was not a good Single Malt Whisky Kudo's for the crew to be so inventive!
26 drr49: Alaska Airlines pilots used vodka to deice their MD-80 that had an upper wing ice problem; but they were in Russia, where vodka is easily available in
27 B777LRF: Actually it's the point where the liquid will exhaust fumes that can be ignited. Liquid alcohol won't burn; just as with petrol it's the fumes what c
28 tdscanuck: De-ice fluid is usually made from glycol, not ethanol. I don't think ethanol is corrosive but it's highly toxic. There are edible and non-edible glyc
29 brilondon: Good one, Spirits. Seriously, why waste good whiskey or not so good whiskey on deicing when you have such spirits as vodka or rum to pour on the wing
30 Mortyman: Se : In this case it was incase of a stop in fuel supply. The aircraft could return to base both for the sake of aircraft and company but also for th
31 HPRamper: Deicing fluid is primarily propylene glycol these days. It used to be ethylene glycol, still is in some locations, but by and large that is in the pa
32 brilondon: No, I was thinking of the Johnny Walker special reserve or the MacCallan single malt...
33 flyingalex: It's been a while since I took organic chem, but as I recall, all glycols are alcohols.
34 as739x: You beat me to it!! Working at AS, I got some great story's from the senior guys about their adventures into Russia. And that was one of them.
35 amccann: I see, thank you. Yes but the alcohol in vodka (and all other alcoholic beverage) is ethyl alcohol (or ethanol). Wouldn't want to confuse ethanol the
36 warden145: They're saving the vodka...in an emergency, they can pour that into the fuel tanks (because of the strong alcohol smell in vodka, I've always called
37 tdscanuck: Ethanol the fuel and ethanol the alcohol are, chemically, the same thing. Ethanol the fuel will kill you several ways...the fuel isn't refined nearly
38 amccann: Correct, the alcohol in both ethanol the fuel and ethanol the alcohol are chemically the same. I guess should have been more clear as ethanol (the fu
39 columba: What was the name of the Captain ? McGyver ?
40 HAWK21M: Seems to be another story......if alcohol of such small quantity was used,dont think the icing was as severe.Also incomplete Deicing would have compli
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Why waste good vodka when you can pour out the gin instead?
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