Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3227 posts, RR: 2 Posted (6 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1813 times:
With all the disturbing news about SAS future this weekend, it is nice to read that pilots and cabincrew are in good spirit and hands on:
As the SAS flight from Alicante to Stavanger prepared for it's take off from the Spanish resort town, there appeared a problem that is usually unknown at those latitudes.
The plane had - due to uncertainty about the SAS's future - full wing tanks with fuel when it landed in Alicante. The low temperature in altitude meant that the fuel was very cold, so that ice had formed on the wings.
The captain requisitioned car with ladder. Since there is no de-icing equipment at the airport in Alicante, The necessary alcohol was removed from the aircraft's own holdings. After the captain had personally de-iced wings by spraying three bottles of whiskey on each wing, the ice finally dissapeared. The plane could take off, 1 hour and 20 minutes late with a nice smell of Whiskey in the cabin ...
According to a passenger on the flight:
- There was a good atmosphere in the plane. We were informed that the whiskey was consumed. So if someone wanted a drink on the trip, they had to make do with gin ...
SAS pilots has now received a clear message by the managment to refuel planes completely. This is to ensure that the aircraft must have enough fuel even for the trip back from the destination, or the subsequent connection in case an emergency situation arises.
Chock-full fuel tanks was by all accounts a contributing factor to the frozen wings at the airport in Alicante.
Acey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1337 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (6 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1826 times:
I'm assuming it wasn't below freezing or precipitating on the ground? Very unorthodox yes, but if it was just frost due to cold fuel and not due to icing conditions on the ground or in flight, then I guess whatever works. I personally wouldn't have done it, but I don't think it posed much of a safety risk.
YXD172 From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 426 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1832 times:
Haha, this just made my morning, thanks for posting!
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1): I don't know how comfortable I'd be if my plane was de-iced by whiskey, no offense to the pilots. Turned out well I guess...
Ya, my gut isn't completely comfortable with it... but I really can't come up with any reason that it would be unsafe given the circumstances, so kudos to the pilot!
Radial engines don't leak oil, they are just marking their territory!
clydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 995 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (6 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1830 times:
Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter): Since there is no de-icing equipment at the airport in Alicante,
I highly doubt that this is true. It's more likely that none of the rigs were ready, which is quite a common occurence even at northern European airports when de-icing is not anticipated.
flyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 992 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (6 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1834 times:
Quoting Acey559 (Reply 2): I'm assuming it wasn't below freezing or precipitating on the ground? Very unorthodox yes, but if it was just frost due to cold fuel and not due to icing conditions on the ground or in flight, then I guess whatever works. I personally wouldn't have done it, but I don't think it posed much of a safety risk.
Quoting YXD172 (Reply 4): Ya, my gut isn't completely comfortable with it... but I really can't come up with any reason that it would be unsafe given the circumstances, so kudos to the pilot!
You guys need to look at the weather forecast for Alicante. This time of the year, it's usually about 20°C/70°F during the day and 10°C/50°F at night. There's a good reason why the airport doesn't have de-icing equipment - they don't need it.
The sort of ice that forms as a result of condensation freezing to the wing is very thin, and that whiskey would have been more than enough to melt it. Deicing fluid is nothing but alcohol anyway, so this was a creative approach to solving the problem.
Personally, the only thing I'm disappointed about is that they poured whiskey over the wings rather than the gin alluded to in the article. I can't stand gin, so I would have poured that out first!
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
amccann From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (6 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1830 times:
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 10): The sort of ice that forms as a result of condensation freezing to the wing is very thin, and that whiskey would have been more than enough to melt it. Deicing fluid is nothing but alcohol anyway, so this was a creative approach to solving the problem.
I am no chemist but can any Airliners.net member explain the differences in the chemical composition of airplane de-ice fluid and ethyl alcohol? I am a little curious if ethyl alcohol has any corrosive properties.
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 10): Personally, the only thing I'm disappointed about is that they poured whiskey over the wings rather than the gin alluded to in the article. I can't stand gin, so I would have poured that out first!
Why waste good vodka when you can pour out the gin instead?
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
Off topic, -but does anyone remember the scandal in the mid 80' when some Austrian winemakers mixed in some diethylene clycol to sweeten up some dessert wine?
Scooter01
"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
Antoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1503 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (6 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1831 times:
Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 15): Off topic, -but does anyone remember the scandal in the mid 80' when some Austrian winemakers mixed in some diethylene clycol to sweeten up some dessert wine?
I'm a bit young to remember that... but if you check the label on some pastries, forms of glycol are put in them (specifically I've seen it in store brand turnovers) as a sweet preservative.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
garpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2293 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (6 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1831 times:
Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 12): So when the pilot puts alcohol on the wings, and suppose there is a spark during the engine start, wont the wing too catch fire?
flyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 992 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1828 times:
Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 12): So when the pilot puts alcohol on the wings, and suppose there is a spark during the engine start, wont the wing too catch fire?
For one thing, because the concentration of alcohol is too low for whiskey to be flammable at that temperature.
Whiskey is usually around 45% alcohol by volume, which means the ethanol in it has a flashpoint of about 25°C (a substance's flashpoint is the minimum temperature at which it will ignite if exposed to fire, so the above means that you can get whiskey to burn if you have warmed it to at least 25°C and then put a flame to it).
For a stronger alcohol mixture, the flashpoint decreases, for a weaker alcohol mixture the flashpoint increases.
Sticking with our example of whiskey on a wing, we need to remember what the situation was. The pictures in the article were taken in the dark, so the ambient temperature was probably something like 5°C-10°C. Furthermore, the alcohol was being poured onto ice, reducing its temperature. In addition, as the whiskey melts the ice into water, the concentration of alcohol in the resulting mixture goes down, which also raises the flashpoint. I can't think of any way the alcohol could get warm enough to ignite in a situation where there is ice on the wings in the first place.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
saleya22r From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 52 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1830 times:
It was a 737-700 right? It's a 3+ hour flight, can the wing tanks be full after that? On the other hand, taking the range of the -700 into account it's possible.
One might expect this to happen more often to aircraft making shorter flights with a lot of cold fuel in the wings to airports where de-icing is not normally available.
Saleya 22R
francoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3195 posts, RR: 10 Reply 21, posted (6 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1828 times:
Can someone run by me again why management wants R/T fuel on departure from the homebase?
Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter): This is to ensure that the aircraft must have enough fuel even for the trip back from the destination, or the subsequent connection in case an emergency situation arises.
What would 'emergency situation' mean in this context? Unpaid fuel bills? Are they in such a bad way?
[Edited 2012-11-19 03:49:52]
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
AA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 356 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1830 times:
Quoting francoflier (Reply 21): Can someone run by me again why management wants R/T fuel on departure from the homebase?
My guess is that if, suddenly, SAS goes into liquidation / business shutdown and is unable to further pay to have aircraft fueled, that way the aircraft will be able to return to base.
Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
flyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 992 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (6 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1830 times:
Quoting francoflier (Reply 21): Can someone run by me again why management wants R/T fuel on departure from the homebase?
Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
This is to ensure that the aircraft must have enough fuel even for the trip back from the destination, or the subsequent connection in case an emergency situation arises.
What would 'emergency situation' mean in this context? Unpaid fuel bills? Are they in such a bad way?
In a word, yes.
Quoting AA94 (Reply 23): My guess is that if, suddenly, SAS goes into liquidation / business shutdown and is unable to further pay to have aircraft fueled, that way the aircraft will be able to return to base.
Yes, that is the reasoning behind it. If you look at the demise of Swissair, you can see what happens when suppliers no longer trust the airline to pay its bills. In the days leading up to Swissair's grounding, pilots were issued piles of cash before each flight to pay for fuel at the destination because no one would let SR buy fuel on credit anymore. By filling up at home base, you can be sure that you have enough fuel to bring the aircraft home if the airline folds.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
drr49 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (6 months 1 day ago) and read 2184 times:
Alaska Airlines pilots used vodka to deice their MD-80 that had an upper wing ice problem; but they were in Russia, where vodka is easily available in big quantities. This was back in the mid-90's.
B777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 998 posts, RR: 3 Reply 27, posted (6 months 1 day ago) and read 2147 times:
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 19): Whiskey is usually around 45% alcohol by volume, which means the ethanol in it has a flashpoint of about 25°C (a substance's flashpoint is the minimum temperature at which it will ignite if exposed to fire, so the above means that you can get whiskey to burn if you have warmed it to at least 25°C and then put a flame to it).
Actually it's the point where the liquid will exhaust fumes that can be ignited. Liquid alcohol won't burn; just as with petrol it's the fumes what catches fire.
Thus, in this particular situation, the chances of the liquid reaching a temperature where fumes starts forming are not even remote. They're somewhere beyond Alpha Centauri, give or take a light year.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 81 Reply 28, posted (6 months 22 hours ago) and read 2053 times:
Quoting amccann (Reply 13): I am no chemist but can any Airliners.net member explain the differences in the chemical composition of airplane de-ice fluid and ethyl alcohol? I am a little curious if ethyl alcohol has any corrosive properties.
De-ice fluid is usually made from glycol, not ethanol. I don't think ethanol is corrosive but it's highly toxic.
Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 16): I'm a bit young to remember that... but if you check the label on some pastries, forms of glycol are put in them (specifically I've seen it in store brand turnovers) as a sweet preservative.
There are edible and non-edible glycols. I think the guys that got in trouble with the wine were using ethylene glycol (what's in your car), which is highly toxic. Polypropylene glycol is a typical additive in lots of edible things.
Quoting saleya22r (Reply 20): It was a 737-700 right? It's a 3+ hour flight, can the wing tanks be full after that?
brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 3167 posts, RR: 1 Reply 29, posted (6 months 22 hours ago) and read 2038 times:
Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter): it is nice to read that pilots and cabincrew are in good spirit and hands on:
Good one, Spirits.
Seriously, why waste good whiskey or not so good whiskey on deicing when you have such spirits as vodka or rum to pour on the wings of the aircraft?
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 8): Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 7):
Were these full bottles, or the single-serve minis that usually show up on airline serving carts?
The wings are large, so naturally it was not minis ...
If you look at the picture you can see that it was large bottles
Yeah, I think that was a joke...
Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 12): So when the pilot puts alcohol on the wings, and suppose there is a spark during the engine start, wont the wing too catch fire?
The alcohol you are using is not flammable at that temperature, besides they use another form of alcohol to deice the aircraft normally.
Quoting AA94 (Reply 23): Quoting francoflier (Reply 21):
Can someone run by me again why management wants R/T fuel on departure from the homebase?
My guess is that if, suddenly, SAS goes into liquidation / business shutdown and is unable to further pay to have aircraft fueled, that way the aircraft will be able to return to base.
They may find that they have a cost advantage if they buy the fuel at one airport over the cost of fuel at another airport. AA use to fly from New York to Chicago with a stop in YYZ to fuel up when the cost was lower at YYZ. Another way to save money. It is like going to a lower cost filling station to fuel up your car and passing by the more expensive stations along the way.
Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3227 posts, RR: 2 Reply 30, posted (6 months 21 hours ago) and read 2023 times:
Quoting francoflier (Reply 21): Can someone run by me again why management wants R/T fuel on departure from the homebase?
Quoting francoflier (Reply 21): What would 'emergency situation' mean in this context? Unpaid fuel bills? Are they in such a bad way?
Se :
Quoting AA94 (Reply 23):
My guess is that if, suddenly, SAS goes into liquidation / business shutdown and is unable to further pay to have aircraft fueled, that way the aircraft will be able to return to base.
In this case it was incase of a stop in fuel supply. The aircraft could return to base both for the sake of aircraft and company but also for the crew and passengers. The crew was also told to bring their own money supply, incase they would have to pay for hotel etc. So good and responsible management ( atleast in this case )
HPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3661 posts, RR: 8 Reply 31, posted (6 months 18 hours ago) and read 1979 times:
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 10): Deicing fluid is nothing but alcohol anyway, so this was a creative approach to solving the problem.
Deicing fluid is primarily propylene glycol these days. It used to be ethylene glycol, still is in some locations, but by and large that is in the past.
Quoting brilondon (Reply 29): Seriously, why waste good whiskey or not so good whiskey on deicing when you have such spirits as vodka or rum to pour on the wings of the aircraft?
If we are talking about Evan Williams or Old Crow, please, give me the cheap vodka.
flyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 992 posts, RR: 1 Reply 33, posted (6 months 17 hours ago) and read 1962 times:
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 31):
Deicing fluid is primarily propylene glycol these days. It used to be ethylene glycol, still is in some locations, but by and large that is in the past.
It's been a while since I took organic chem, but as I recall, all glycols are alcohols.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
as739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5818 posts, RR: 23 Reply 34, posted (6 months 17 hours ago) and read 1985 times:
Quoting drr49 (Reply 26): Alaska Airlines pilots used vodka to deice their MD-80 that had an upper wing ice problem; but they were in Russia, where vodka is easily available in big quantities.
You beat me to it!!
Working at AS, I got some great story's from the senior guys about their adventures into Russia. And that was one of them.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
amccann From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (6 months 12 hours ago) and read 1935 times:
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 28): De-ice fluid is usually made from glycol, not ethanol. I don't think ethanol is corrosive but it's highly toxic.
I see, thank you. Yes but the alcohol in vodka (and all other alcoholic beverage) is ethyl alcohol (or ethanol). Wouldn't want to confuse ethanol the alcohol with ethanol the fuel as ethanol the fuel is definitely toxic.
[Edited 2012-11-19 18:49:26]
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 81 Reply 37, posted (6 months 11 hours ago) and read 1929 times:
Quoting amccann (Reply 35): Yes but the alcohol in vodka (and all other alcoholic beverage) is ethyl alcohol (or ethanol). Wouldn't want to confuse ethanol the alcohol with ethanol the fuel as ethanol the fuel is definitely toxic.
Ethanol the fuel and ethanol the alcohol are, chemically, the same thing. Ethanol the fuel will kill you several ways...the fuel isn't refined nearly enough to get rid of other stuff that's bad for you, it's often mixed with other fuels that are bad for you, and it's near 100% alcohol so you die of alcohol poisoning even if it's really pure. It's basically Everclear.
amccann From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 38, posted (6 months 11 hours ago) and read 1915 times:
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 37): Ethanol the fuel and ethanol the alcohol are, chemically, the same thing. Ethanol the fuel will kill you several ways...the fuel isn't refined nearly enough to get rid of other stuff that's bad for you, it's often mixed with other fuels that are bad for you, and it's near 100% alcohol so you die of alcohol poisoning even if it's really pure. It's basically Everclear.
Correct, the alcohol in both ethanol the fuel and ethanol the alcohol are chemically the same. I guess should have been more clear as ethanol (the fuel) I was referencing is the marketing name "ethanol." For example, octane 89 fuel in Iowa is 15% ethanol, many Iowans refer to octane 89 simply as "ethanol." Or even E85 which is 85% ethanol. The toxicity I was referring to was the effects of the additive and/or other fuels as it is common knowledge that pure alcohol (ethyl alcohol) is toxic.
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58 Reply 40, posted (6 months 3 hours ago) and read 1876 times:
Seems to be another story......if alcohol of such small quantity was used,dont think the icing was as severe.Also incomplete Deicing would have complicated issues if not carried out properly.
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Why waste good vodka when you can pour out the gin instead?
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