tonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 985 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4999 times:
Everyone bashes AA MDs, being old, gas guzzlers, etc. I don't see why it's not said the same about DL MDs. Delta is actually acquiring while AA is slowly retiring. Is there much difference between the MDs fleet of these two airlines?
spiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5016 times:
I can't really comment on the AA Mad Dawgs as I've never been on one, but I have been on several DL MD-88's and they have all been pretty nice. Clean, well-kept, nice interiors, WiFi, overall a pretty nice plane. I don't know if the same is to be said about the AA MD's, so I'll leave that up to somebody who has expereinced them. athough, from what I hear on A.net and see for myself, DL's MD's have a better maintenance reliability than AA's.
questions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 589 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5013 times:
Part of it is philosophy... take on a lot of debt for new fuel efficient aircraft (spend money on aircraft) vs take on significantly less debt acquiring and upgrading cabins on fuel inefficient aircraft (spend money on fuel).
Part of it is brand... leading edge, advanced, modern vs conservative, second-hand, good enough will do
At the end of the day, excluding network, the strategy that pulls in the most revenue with best margins wins.
southwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5020 times:
AA has Md82/83
AA simply can't make money with those planes they had to many and by the time they realized they needed newer efficient planes it was to late. Gotta love US has one of the most fuel efficient planes in the fleet
DL has md88/90 and soon to be 717
DL on the other hand is making money with and is acquiring more for a cheap cost which is enables then to generate more revenue.
mpdpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 978 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5016 times:
I think the difference is in the types of MD aircraft that Delta is acquiring.
Where AA has the 280 MD-82 give or take, Delta is acquiring aircraft that are far more fuel efficient than AA's MDs.
Delta is acquiring MD-90's and 717s these are quite fuel efficient aircraft and very cheap to purchase so the cost is more about the maintenance. Verse the AA MD's which are not as fuel efficient and maintenance heavy.
Having both is a problem, having just one is workable.
The other thing to remember is that airlines aren't just looking for a profit in part it is the whole picture. AA's MDs, might actually be making money for AA even though the margins might be very small. Mix that with revenue issues in other areas and you have a loss.
At the end of the day, I don't think that AA MDs are the problem, I think they are unsustainable. I think the issue isn't their fuel efficiency it is the shear size of the fleet. Even if they took delivery of every A320 coming off the line it would take years.
Taking on that kind of debt (something Delta is trying to avoid) will be crippling. With something like 480 aircraft on order, paying for that will require a lot of cash and a steady cash flow, something that I don't think this industry can guarantee yet. I also really don't think that AA's plan of acquiring 480 some aircraft is going to allow them to be as flexible as they will need to be to remain profitable.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
I'm going to be the first to say this here, AA's MD-80s are a lot nicer than DL's. Sure Delta has economy comfort and embroidered headrests and what have you, but the entire back of that airplane, like five rows, has no view since the reconfiguration. AA's S80s have only two (one 1.5 really since you can still get a half window in row 31) and AA has extended overhead bin space on the DEF side of the airplane. AA has nicer first class seats in the S80 and most economy seats are fitted with winged headrests, something you can't get on DL.
I think the big difference in philosophy is how they're being deployed. DL still sends MD-88s on higher yeilding long-distance flights. AA only does to a very limited extent. DFW-PDX, ORD-TUS, LAX-STL are among the longest and they are disappearing more and more. Alternatively, they're deploying them exclusively on high-cycle, high-frequency, high-density routes from DFW and to a lesser extent ORD. (DFW-AUS/SAT/OKC/TUL/MCI/DEN) (ORD-MSP/STL/LGA/DCA/PHL).
I think the notion that AA can't make money with the S80 is false. DL has more seats in the back than AA and a better (cheaper) contract for them. Other than that I can't see why the costs would be any different. AA's MD-83s were built to the same MD-88 standard as DL's except with the older cockpit to keep commonality with the other jets.
Whatever your opinion, they're still fun jets to fly. I just got off one, ELP-DFW. I hope they stick around for awhile.
V2500 engines are the main thing. More or less the same engine as the A320...a much newer design and higher bypass ratio than the JT8Ds they replace. Also, the fuselage stretch allows more pax and therefore more revenue...
AAplat4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 138 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5012 times:
AA still flies MD80s on long flights. ORD-LAS should be all 738, but it is all MD80. Last month, there was a daily 738 flight, but no longer. ORD-PSP is almost always a full flight, but it is always MD80. Even some ORD-LAX routes find some MD80s there. AA always comes up with some reason to put the MD80s back into service on long haul flights out of ORD, but the reasoning seems suspect given high fuel prices and heavy passenger loads.
ckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 4940 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5011 times:
Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 3): AA simply can't make money with those planes they had to many and by the time they realized they needed newer efficient planes it was to late
What happened to AA was that Boeing started dropping hints that it was looking to develop a new narrowbody, using some of the technology of the 787. Southwest went on record saying that if Boeing would develop a new narrowbody that could reduce costs by the same percentage that the 787 reduces costs over the 767, it would order 150 and option 150. I seem to recall that this was around 2006. This was also when the 787 wasn't so far behind schedule.
AA didn't want to put in a large order for 737NGs, then have Boeing start taking orders for a new narrowbody within a few years. Between that potential scenrio and trying to conserve cash, AA sat on the sidelines until the price of oil skyrocketed in 2008. So, AA placed its large 738 order for deliveries to start in 2009.
Of course, if AA had decided to go ahead with the 738 order in 2006 or early 2007, they would have been receiving planes as the price of oil mushroomed. But, when AA's primary supplier of aircraft is whispering about a new narrowbody, and Southwest is pushing Boeing hard to start work on a new plane, it makes sense to wait and see.
That said, I've been on a number of AA MD-80s and have found them to be kept in good condition. Obviously, they haven't gone through a major refurbishment since the late 1990s, when AA went to the current color scheme and seats with the adjustable headrests.
I've never been on a Delta MD-88, and it's been some time since any friends of mine have flown Delta on the MD-88. So, I can't comment. But, I would expect that if Delta is planning to keep the MD-88s for some time (or until fuel prices get too expensive for the type), then they will get a lot of TLC.
One would expcet that AA will keep the MD-80s in good condition in terms of operations of the aircraft, but the interiors may not get as much TLC, since the fleet is destined for the desert, as more 738s are delivered and A319s start arriving next year.
Darksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1221 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5009 times:
Quoting tonytifao (Thread starter): Everyone bashes AA MDs, being old, gas guzzlers, etc. I don't see why it's not said the same about DL MDs. Delta is actually acquiring while AA is slowly retiring. Is there much difference between the MDs fleet of these two airlines?
The fact that DL is doing as well as they are with so many MDs puts that myth to rest. AA's problem isn't the S80s, it's AA. Type matters to a small extent, but there's a good deal more to it than that.
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 1): from what I hear on A.net and see for myself, DL's MD's have a better maintenance reliability than AA 's.
They're newer (although AA does have some of the most recent, courtesy of TWA). DL spends good money on MD MX too. They just don't have that ridiculous lease arrangement on their backs.
Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 3):
AA simply can't make money with those planes they had to many and by the time they realized they needed newer efficient planes it was to late.
Again, the 80's aren't the problem. It's their usage and their lease back.
Ok. But why can't VX (who has the same fleet, minus the 21) make any money? There's more to this than individual trip costs.
G4 & NK both print money these days. One with MDs, the other with 319s, 20s, and a 21. But their operational strategies are so different to what we see at AA, DL, and the LCCs that trip costs almost don't matter there.
Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 5): Verse the AA MD's which are not as fuel efficient and maintenance heavy.
They're not, no. But let's not forget that some of DL's MDs are actually DC-9-50s. Where would those fall on this scale?
I'm not saying updating their fleet is a bad idea. It isn't. But they're going to have to do a lot more than blame the MD80s to set themselves on a less loss-intensive path, going forward.
More seats, better engines, and above all else, DL has been adept at getting these planes cheap. AA has really not done this with their own MDs. I think by now the type has more than paid for itself, but their being AA with all that entails has been their problem. Frankly, AA would be in the exact same bind they are in even if their S80s were A32xs.
Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 5):
The other thing to remember is that airlines aren't just looking for a profit in part it is the whole picture. AA 's MDs, might actually be making money for AA even though the margins might be very small. Mix that with revenue issues in other areas and you have a loss.
Yup, I think you nailed it. Super high labor, disadvantageous vendor contracts in literally everything they do, refusal to open up new markets, and fierce competition that will not relent have all taken their toll. We really can't just blame the Mad Dawgs, as intellectually facile as that may be.
Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6273 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5006 times:
Overall, I prefer the interiors of the DL MD-88s over the AA MD-80s. DL has gone through the process of refurbishing the cabins, including leather seat covers, updated PSUs, and cool white lighting. The only thing better about AA's MD-80s are the winged headrests in Y.
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slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2907 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5008 times:
Deltas MD-90s are much more fuel efficient than AAs Mad Dogs. You are comparing MD-80s to MD-90s. Its apples to oranges comparison. Delta is getting much more fuel efficient planes. Not a bad move and delta can retire the more fuel guzzling DC9s and older MD88s.
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6273 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5008 times:
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 15): While I definitely understand the significant difference between the -80 and -90, what precisely is the MD-88?
Other than being newer, does it have lower operating costs than the -80/-83?
The MD-88 is an updated MD-82 with a partial CRT cockpit and screwdriver tailcone; DL's first MD-88s were actually converted MD-82s. However, the partial CRT cockpit and screwdriver tailcone later became standard on the MD-82 and MD-83.
As for operating cost, it should be the same as the MD-82.
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jayspilot From United States of America, joined May 2001, 297 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5004 times:
I saw it posted once but someone showed the fuel burn on a 500,750 and 1000 stage length comparing a DL md-88 vs a DL 737-800 and a B6 A320. From what I remember the shorter two legs were almost the same regardless of the plan with the efficiences only showing on the longer legs as the curse phase of flight is where the savings builds up.
JAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1402 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5004 times:
I flew one of DL's MD-90s from ATL - SAN a few years back. It was pleasant enough up front. I noticed DL puts its two seat rows on the right side of the plane whereas AA puts theirs on the left. What really struck me about the DL plane I flew in was the noise and vibration in the back of the plane. The racket was so loud, I can't imagine anyone flying in the last five rows. I recall using the lavatory and being shocked at the rear of the aircraft. I don't recall that in the AA planes, but I haven't flown one recently.
L1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1621 posts, RR: 9 Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5004 times:
I think Delta's and American's MD-80s are both very nice aircraft to fly in. The interiors of both are clean and well-maintained. I prefer AA's because of the cloth seat covers. I'm not crazy about leather.
MountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5006 times:
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18): I flew one of DL's MD-90s from ATL - SAN a few years back. It was pleasant enough up front. I noticed DL puts its two seat rows on the right side of the plane whereas AA puts theirs on the left.
That's only the case with the DL MD-88's. The DL MD-90's are, as AFAIK always have been two on left, three on right.
MountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5006 times:
Quoting mhkansan (Reply 21): You've got it swapped. AA's S80s 2-3 (AB, DEF). DL's MD-90s and DC-9-50s are also like this, but the DL MD-88s are 3-2 (ABC DE).
That's exactly what I said. Generally, when making reference to "right" and "left" side of the aircraft, we are referring to aircraft right or left, meaning looking forward from the back, not looking backward from the front as you walk into the plane.
downtown273 From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 286 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5005 times:
I fly SK's MD-82's 2 or 3 times per week. I'll choose an MD80 over A320/B738 any time. If you fly in the front (business/premium economy) it's incredibly quiet and they have a 2-3 layout. I find the 3-3 configuration on A320/B738 way more uncomfortable for foodservice / working.
They might be old planes but the flying experience is great, in my opinion!
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6273 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5002 times:
Quoting mhkansan (Reply 21): Remember AA's have the expanded bins on the DEF side while DL's do not.
That is where you are wrong. DL has expanded bins on the ABC side on the MD-88s and the DEF side on the MD-90s. They were installed on the MD-88s in 2000, and the MD-90s have been retrofitted in the past year or two. Also, unlike AA, the bin extensions on DL's MD-88s have a holding rail.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
25 asqx: Delta has extended bins on the ABC side of the MD-88 and the CDE side of the MD-90.
26 woodsboy: I worked OPS for Alaska Airlines in the 90s when we operated MD82/83 and 737-400s on both long and short routes. When you do ops you get to see and co
27 N766UA: I really don't think that's DAL's philosophy. They're taking early to mid-aged jets (with the exception of the ancient -9's,) and putting fuel in the
28 B727FA: I'll make it easy here: DL and AA have the extended bins on the 3 seat side. Done.
29 TrnsWrld: Someone above described the differences between the MD82 and the MD88, but can someone tell me the differences between the MD88 and the MD83? I know i
30 1337Delta764: The MD-83 is the longer range variant of the MD-80 family, equipped with more powerful engines and more fuel capacity. The MD-83 has a range of 2500
31 captainstefan: In general, DL does not fly the 88s west of the Rockies. Those missions are left for the 90s and bigger. Seconded. I don't like that... swampy... fee
32 B757forever: DL moved away from cloth and chose leather because fluids (let your imagination run wild) do not soak into leather as they do cloth. The leather is c
33 Viscount724: Fully agree. Leather is no improvement in my opinion. I much prefer cloth. The only reason airlines use leather is because it lasts longer and is che
34 PSU.DTW.SCE: DL does not fly the MD88s any farther west than cities like DFW, SAT, OKC, or MCI. Unlike AA, DL does not even use their MD-88s into hotter/higher ai
35 usdcaguy: I completely agree and like flying KL for the same reasons, although I find their aircraft to be nicer than that of AF for some reason. The problem w
36 totesen: Well the MD90 has the same CFM engines as the A320, making it as efficient as a new generation aircraft, it is also built on the late 90´s while the
37 Viscount724: Not correct. The MD-90 has the IAE V2500. Both the CFM56 and V2500 are options on the A320 family. The CFM56 was never an option on the MD-90.
38 brilondon: Not exactly. AA acquired their fleet of MD's through mergers with Reno Air, TWA, and I think another airline which I cannot remember as well as their
39 dtw9: Delta BOD has approved the flat panel mod for the MD80/90 fleet. First Mods will start mid to late 2013. Center stack stays with flat panels on either
40 UpstateDave: People, people! AA's MDs are the smaller variant so the higher fuel costs are exacerbated compared to DL's. Its the same problem the 737-600/-700 have
41 N243NW: Unless you're talking about the MD-90, that's not true. The -81, -82, -83 and -88 all have the exact same exterior dimensions and seating capacities.
42 Deltal1011man: lack of JT8s.....MD90 has V2500s....which also powers some A320s. for the record Delta has run ATL-ABQ with 88s. Its fairly new that they have mostly
43 PSU.DTW.SCE: Right. However now with the increased size of the MD-90 fleet, they've been able to get the MD-88s off the longer stage length flights. Routes like A
44 dtw9: What everybody is neglecting to look at in this comparison between AA and Delta's MD-80 fleets is that up until recently AA had higher crew costs then
45 FlyASAGuy2005: As does all Delta 88s on the side with 3 seats... ??? The longest 88 routes right now are 2.5 hour missions. Most of the flights on 88s today are 2 h
46 dtw9: Yes, but AA renegotiated alot of their lease payments on the MD-80 fleet. Add in lower crew costs and you have the basis of AA possibly making money