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British Airways 747-100 Configuration?  
User currently offlinejackbr From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 665 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5331 times:

What configuration were BA 747-100s in in the 1980s/90s? Were they identical to the 742s in the cabin?

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8271 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5341 times:
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BA's configurations were similar on the 741 & 742. First Class was usually 18 seats in the nose section. The biggest Change was when BA switched from "Super Club" to "Club World." BA used to have its forward section as 9 across per row which could be switched into 6 across "Super Club", the cabin was flexible according to demand. Y class was 10 per row as was standard in economy by then.

User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7380 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5341 times:

Quoting jackbr (Thread starter):
What configuration were BA 747-100s in in the 1980s/90s? Were they identical to the 742s in the cabin?

Initially most were configured very differently.

At the start of the 1980s twelve BA 741s had just three upper-deck cabin windows on each side. Their other five 741s and all of their 742s had ten upper-deck windows on each side.

The sub-fleet of twelve 741s (G-AWNA to 'NL) were built against the first BOAC order for this type. Like all of the first production 741s these twelve aircraft were configured with an upper deck lounge. However subsequent 741s delivered to BOAC (G-AWNM to 'NP) and BA (G-BBPU and G-BDPV) were not configured with the lounge. Neither were any of BA's 742s.

As indicated above all aircraft fitted with the upper deck lounge were identifiable externally. They had only three upper deck cabin windows. Those configured with upper deck passenger seats had ten.

Here it is worth mentioning that as far as I can determine the first 741 delivered with passenger seats and not a lounge on the upper deck was OO-SGA built for Sabena and delivered in November 1970. This aircraft was CN 20401, LN 92 suggesting that the first 91 741s were all furbished by Boeing with an upper-deck lounge. From this aircraft until around LN 240 Boeing offered a choice with the upper deck configured either as a passenger cabin or a lounge. There were no deliveries of aircraft with just the three windows after about LN 240. So one of the last aircraft to be delivered with a lounge was AC's C-FTOE, CN 20881, LN 236. Both this and the SN aircraft are pictured here::


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Photo © Ken Rose
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Photo © Peter de Groot



The BOAC / BA upper deck lounges were furbished with two bench seats against the bulkhead. There were two swivel chairs with a wooden table on each side of the cabin. Down the centre of the cabin were two in-line, double bench seats. Separated by a wooden table, with one of these bench seats facing to the right, the other facing to the left. (Was this a standard Boeing lounge or did Boeing make variations on this layout available?)

Starting in 1980 BA had all 12 of their 741s with an upper deck F Class lounge converted. The aircraft were taken out of service after completing an east-to-west trans-Atlantic flight. They were then ferried to a Boeing plant (which one?)where the aircraft were converted to the ten upper deck window configuration and fitted with upper-deck passenger seats.

Here is one of the aircraft ('NF) photographed before and after this conversion:


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Photo © Gerhard Plomitzer
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Photo © Marc Dease



This conversion programme was completed by the end of 1981. So, as an example, there are photos of G-AWNC on the web taken at LHR in March 1981 where the aircraft has three upper-deck windows and another at ZRH in June 1981 where it has ten upper-deck windows confirming a late spring / early summer 1981 conversion.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8271 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5339 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
BA's configurations were similar on the 741 & 742. First Class was usually 18 seats in the nose section. The biggest Change was when BA switched from "Super Club" to "Club World." BA used to have its forward section as 9 across per row which could be switched into 6 across "Super Club", the cabin was flexible according to demand. Y class was 10 per row as was standard in economy by then.

When Club World was introduced in the late 1980's BA had a fixed J class with 7 seats per row. Those 741 received these seats and flew mostly to the USA east coast until 1998, the 741 flew for close to 30 years with BOAC and BA. I wonder how many people knew how old those 747-100 were ? Not many.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8271 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5341 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
BA's configurations were similar on the 741 & 742. First Class was usually 18 seats in the nose section. The biggest Change was when BA switched from "Super Club" to "Club World." BA used to have its forward section as 9 across per row which could be switched into 6 across "Super Club", the cabin was flexible according to demand. Y class was 10 per row as was standard in economy by then.

When Club World was introduced in the late 1980's BA had a fixed J class with 7 seats per row. Those 741 received these seats and flew mostly to the USA east coast until 1998, the 741 flew for close to 30 years with BOAC and BA. I wonder how many people knew how old those 747-100 were ? Not many.


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2070 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5334 times:

The 741s also gained the first generation BA flat-bed First seats, so for their premium passengers I think they wouldn't have realised just how old some of those aircraft were!


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4626 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5334 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 2):
Initially most were configured very differently.

Now that was a superb and informative post!

I love seeing pictures of all the different upper deck lounge configurations. My mother flew to Fiji on Qantas in 1974 and got friendly with the crew and they took her and her friends upstairs for a look around. Good times apparently  



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2598 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5334 times:
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The Airline Memorabilia Blog has BA 747 Classic seat maps from the winter 1988/89 and summer 1995 timetables.

There were some variations to these, especially when the ex-B.Cal 747s were still part of the fleet, and some Gatwick aircraft were in a 2-class layout rather than the 3-class ones shown. But they show a rough idea how these were laid out.

http://airline-memorabilia.blogspot.....uk/search/label/British%20Airways

You need to click through to the second page for the 1995 timetable, navigation is in Spanish though. Click "Entradas antiguas" at the bottom.

Very interesting website, and most descriptions are also available in English.

Reagards
CROSSWIND


User currently onlinefanofjets From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1960 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days ago) and read 5331 times:

In addition, both the -136s and -236s (I don't think the few examples acquired from other airlines apply here) had the number 3 exits (the emergency exits of the wing) sealed shut sometime around 1990, providing extra room for an extra row of seats in the World Traveller section. On the two aircraft I flew on, one of each type, I remember this section looking like a home-made job, the wall panels not quite matching the ones on either side. By that time, the '80s-style smooth wall panels and larger overhead bins had been installed. In addition, there was only a single window - not great seats for those of us who like to look outside.

That aside, I enjoyed the BA flights - I miss the 747 classics!



The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24782 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days ago) and read 5331 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 2):
Here it is worth mentioning that as far as I can determine the first 741 delivered with passenger seats and not a lounge on the upper deck was OO-SGA built for Sabena and delivered in November 1970.

To the best of my memory, all Sabena 747-100s had an upper-deck lounge. In fact, they were one of the few carriers to retain the lounge long after other carriers had replaced the lounge with saleable seats. I remember flying F class (non-rev) on a Sabena 747 (combi) ORD-BRU sometime in the 1980s and being surprised to find that it still had an upper deck lounge which were almost all gone on other carriers by then. As usual, the lounge was deserted for the entire flight, a big waste of space.

Many 747-200s were built with 10 upper deck windows per side but originally had a lounge in the upper deck. And some 747-100s that originally had the lounge (and 3 windows per side) later had the lounge replaced with seats but the 3 windows remained (Pan Am a good example).


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7380 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5330 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 5):
The 741s also gained the first generation BA flat-bed First seats

This is not my recollection.

The last five BA 741's last BA commercial flights were all completed - that is the aircraft arrived at LHR at the end of their last BA revenue flight - on 31 October 1999. G-AWNE (YMX-LHR) was the first of the five to arrive that morning soon followed by G-AWNM (ORD-LHR), G-AWNP (BOS-LHR), G-BBPU (JFK-LHR) and finally G-AWNO (YYZ-LHR). All five were then retired.

At retirement I am pretty certain that these 741s were all configured for up to 356 passengers (F18 / J76 / M288). Their J Class seats at that time were cradle or bucket and not lie-flat seats.

When the cradle seats had been fitted to the BA 747 fleet in 1995-96, five 741s (G-AWNA, 'NB, 'NF, 'NH and 'NN) together with four 742s (G-BDXA, 'BB, 'XC and 'XJ) were all similarly configured for up to 370 passengers (F18 / J70 / M282). Most of the other 741s and 742s had the same number of premium cabin seats but variously had 285, 288 or 292 M Class seats. However four of the 742s (G-BDXD, 'XE, 'XF and 'XG) were given a high density configuration for up to 425 passengers (F18 / J37 / M370).

For comparative purposes the larger 744s were variously configured for up to 400, 405 or 407 passengers (F18 / J55 / M327 or M332 or M334) depending on the specific aircraft once they had been fitted with the cradle seat,.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24782 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5330 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 10):
Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 5):
The 741s also gained the first generation BA flat-bed First seats

This is not my recollection.

Same recollection. I don't think any BA 741s had anything other than the reclining sleeper seats at about 60 inch pitch, much like the F class seats then common on most longhaul widebodies.


User currently offlinefbgdavidson From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 3700 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5330 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 10):
This is not my recollection.

If I recall the first iteration of lie flat First came in around 1996, with the blue cloth and light wood panelling (this was refreshed around 2001/2002 with the grey fabric and walnut Anya Hindmarch design) so to have outgoing, elderly 747-100s fitted with a new product would be surprising given BA's MO when it comes to rolling out new products fleetwide.



"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4940 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5330 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
remember flying F class (non-rev) on a Sabena 747 (combi) ORD-BRU sometime in the 1980s and being surprised to find that it still had an upper deck lounge which were almost all gone on other carriers by then. As usual, the lounge was deserted for the entire flight, a big waste of space.

I wonder why that was? The few times I flew on a 747 before they removed the lounges they seemed like people enjoyed them.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7380 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5328 times:

Quoting fbgdavidson (Reply 12):
If I recall the first iteration of lie flat First came in around 1996

I think there may be some confusion with the timing of the launch of the BA Business Class cradle/bucket seat that the airline announced in 1995 with what they called NCW1.0, their first generation lie-flat J Class seat. BA started to sell this product from the start of the Summer 2000 Timetable.

The first rotation to be sold as having the NCW1.0 product was BA177/74 LHR-JFK-LHR. Starting on 29 March 2000 this flight was operated by one of two 744s, G-BNLX and G-CIVW as both of these aircraft had been rolled out with the new J Class lie-flat product as well as the new W Class World Traveller Plus cabin earlier that year.

Here is a link to the 2003 BA TV advert promoting New Club World "The only truly lie-flat beds in Business Class available to 44 destinations woirldwide" that BA used once most of their fleet had been upgraded with this product:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U67fM2eJeSM

And here is what the BA web site at:

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/history-2000-present/public/en_gb

says:
"2000

"January: British Airways announced the introduction of a new cabin, World Traveller Plus. The cabin would offer more space and facilities than World Traveller for a premium to the full World Traveller fare. Services between London and New York JFK were to be fully embodied with both the Club World 'Lounge in the Sky', the world's first fully flat bed in business class, and World Traveller Plus by Summer 2000."

And later in 2000 further down the page linked above it says:

"July: The embodiment of Club World flat beds was completed for the Heathrow to JFK route."


User currently offlineshankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1540 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5328 times:

I flew on G-AWNK on 6th June 1978 LHR-BDA and back again on G-AWNK on 23rd July. Junior Jet Club badge and log book unfortunately lost along time ago. I can remember being upset (in a 13yr old plane mad kid kind of way) that it wasn't a VC-10!

On the return journey, my father who was a regular business traveller in those days, had some sort of BA card which got the family into a smaller cabin (perhaps 8 rows?) which I can remember being just in line with the front of the wings but fitted with standard economy seats...a kind of early WT+ concept I guess for regular travellers. I wonder if my memory is playing tricks or if anyone can recall that this cabin existed

In comfort terms (noise, vibration) the wonderfully graceful 741 was about as far away from todays A380's and 777's as the Connie was from the 707

[Edited 2012-11-20 08:49:32]

[Edited 2012-11-20 09:00:23]


L1011 - P F M
User currently offlineN707PA From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5328 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
Same recollection. I don't think any BA 741s had anything other than the reclining sleeper seats at about 60 inch pitch, much like the F class seats then common on most longhaul widebodies.

I recall seeing a photo of a BA 741 F cabin (sans seats) that suggested that the first generation flat beds were installed. The carpeting (or carpet tape) was still in place and clearly showed where the footstools once were.

I can't seem to find it on this site, and I believe that it was taken at Cardiff.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7380 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5328 times:

Quoting N707PA (Reply 16):
I recall seeing a photo of a BA 741 F cabin (sans seats) that suggested that the first generation flat beds were installed. The carpeting (or carpet tape) was still in place and clearly showed where the footstools once were.

Thanks for that. My bad. I missed a verty important word, namely

Quoting fbgdavidson (Reply 12):
First

and went chattering on about the launch of lie-flat lat Business Class. My apologies.


User currently offlineBOACCunard From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5328 times:

In the 1990s BA did fit the 741 with the first iteration of "private cabins" in First, as well as the "cradle seat" in Club World. Here is the aircraft information page for the 741/742 from BA's web site in April 1997 showing this. BA was actually quite comprehensive in fitting these products even on its oldest widebodies; not just the 741 and 742 but also the D10. At least the 741/742 operated on a lot of "high profile" routes from LHR (one can imagine BA wanting its latest premium products on e.g. LHR-JFK), but given that the D10 was not only elderly and nearing retirement but also based at LGW flying mostly rather secondary long-haul routes, it is quite amazing to me that BA went to the expense and trouble of doing this. The 741 and D10 were both retired in 1999, while the 742 lasted until 2001.

In 1997 on my first of many trips to London I flew BA's 772 outbound JFK-LHR, returning LHR-JFK on a then much more common 741. In Y it was quite a contrast mainly because the 772 was so astonishingly modern at the time, but there was nothing particularly dated about the 741; indeed I am not sure a BA 744 would have been that different from a pax standpoint.



Getting There is Half the Fun!
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12407 posts, RR: 37
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5328 times:

It would be interesting to know how many changes of configuration the 741s went through during their lives with BA.

I think - and I stand to be corrected on this - that for about the first eight or nine years, it was just the standard FY config - around 385 seats. I recall from an ad in an old National Geographic magazine that they introduced their first effort at a Business Class - I think that may have been eight or nine abreast initially - a "toe in the water" affair; these were the days before Lord King came on board and BA was haemhorraging money hand over fist. With competition from other carriers - TWA's Ambassador class (which was 6 abreast - very good) and Pan Am's Clipper (not to mention QF, SQ, GF and others), the configs must have changed quite rapidly. The costs of configuration changes must have been immense over the lives of these aircraft.


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2070 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 18):
In the 1990s BA did fit the 741 with the first iteration of "private cabins" in First, as well as the "cradle seat" in Club World. Here is the aircraft information page for the 741/742 from BA's web site in April 1997 showing this. BA was actually quite comprehensive in fitting these products even on its oldest widebodies; not just the 741 and 742 but also the D10. At least the 741/742 operated on a lot of "high profile" routes from LHR (one can imagine BA wanting its latest premium products on e.g. LHR-JFK), but given that the D10 was not only elderly and nearing retirement but also based at LGW flying mostly rather secondary long-haul routes, it is quite amazing to me that BA went to the expense and trouble of doing this. The 741 and D10 were both retired in 1999, while the 742 lasted until 2001.

As I recall, for quite a while in the 1990s all LHR-JFK flights were operated by 747 classics, with the excepion of BA113/BA114 which was a 744. I think that BA for a long time wanted product consistency, and it's only with the 2nd generation Club World (not fitted to the 767 fleet) and the last of the 747s not to get the new First that this hasn't been the case.

Before 9/11 BA planned to keep the 742 fleet for use on shorter longhaul flights (CAI/JFK/BOS.IAD/ORD etc) but they were retired pretty quickly after that. With hindsight, when BA was ordering so many 744s in the 1990s it might have been better to get the 773 for these flights.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineBOACCunard From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20):
As I recall, for quite a while in the 1990s all LHR-JFK flights were operated by 747 classics, with the excepion of BA113/BA114 which was a 744.

Well, in the summer of 1997 it was all 747s except for a single 777 flight. I don't remember if any of the 747s were 744s though. (Of course I am not counting the SSC flights here. ) But the 747 classic was absolutely the dominant aircraft BA used from LHR to most US and Canadian cities through the 1990s.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20):
I think that BA for a long time wanted product consistency, and it's only with the 2nd generation Club World (not fitted to the 767 fleet) and the last of the 747s not to get the new First that this hasn't been the case.

Absolutely, and even with the latest Club World it was only the 767 that didn't receive it, an aircraft that is nowhere near as important to BA's fleet as the 747 classic was in the 1990s.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20):
Before 9/11 BA planned to keep the 742 fleet for use on shorter longhaul flights (CAI/JFK/BOS.IAD/ORD etc) but they were retired pretty quickly after that. With hindsight, when BA was ordering so many 744s in the 1990s it might have been better to get the 773 for these flights.

Well, the 773 was after all intended to replace 747 classics on routes that didn't require the range of the 744... So BA would seemingly have been the ideal customer for the type with such a large network of cities from LHR requiring a large aircraft without necessarily long range, perhaps even more so than the handful of Asian airlines that actually bought it. Add in the large 772/77E fleet with such strong commonality with the 773 and it would seem to have been ideal, but for whatever reason BA went with a massive 744 fleet instead.



Getting There is Half the Fun!
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24782 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 19):
I think - and I stand to be corrected on this - that for about the first eight or nine years, it was just the standard FY config - around 385 seats.

Seat map of BA's (then BOAC) original 747-100 configuration in one BA history book shows 27 F and 335 Y (3-4-2) for a total of 362. No business class then of course. It mentions that during the winter that changed to 36 F and 315 Y on certain routes including the North Atlantic.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 19):
I think that may have been eight or nine abreast initially

9-abreast (3-4-2) originally like virtually all early 747s. That didn't last long. BA began switching to 10-abreast (3-4-3) around 1974. I remember a BA trip (741s both ways) ORD-LHR-ORD in March 1974. The aircraft on the outbound flight was still 3-4-2 but the aircraft on the return flight a week later was in a strange configuration, still 9-abreast but with the 3 and 4-abreast sections replaced with the new narrower seats from the new 3-4-3 configuration, but with the old original wider 2-abreast seats still installed on the right side. I guess all the new seats hadn't yet been delivered. That resulted in a very wide aisle on the right side due to the narrower 3- and 4-abreast units.

I remember the exact date (March 2, 1974) of that eastbound ORD-LHR BA flight as it arrived on March 3, about the same time as the crash of the Turkish Airlines DC-10-10 after takeoff from ORY en route to LHR, killing all 346 aboard, including many BA passengers who had been rebooked on the TK flight due to a BA labour dispute that resulted in cancellation of a BA flight ORY-LHR. (Coincidentally, CDG airport opened a few days later that week.)


User currently offlineKL5147 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2005, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5096 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
They were then ferried to a Boeing plant (which one?)where the aircraft were converted to the ten upper deck window configuration and fitted with upper-deck passenger seats.

I guess it was Wichita.
That was where the 6 KLM (P&W) 747's also were converted from 3 to 10 upperdeck windows each side and an extra emergency exit on the upper deck.
see this thread, reply 15
Fate Of The KLM 747-200/300s (by MEA-707 Jul 23 2006 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=2894851&searchid=2897419&s=PH-BUA+klm#ID2897419



"The world is just a click away!"
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7380 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4711 times:

Quoting KL5147 (Reply 23):
I guess it was Wichita.

Thanks for the link.


User currently offlineeta unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2072 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day ago) and read 4570 times:

The configurations between 136's and 236's were the same except for the upper deck. The 136's had an extra row of Club World seats on the port side only on the upper deck, opposite the staircase. On the 236's this space was partially taken up with a walled/curtained off crew rest with 2 bunks. Oh the countless memories of crew deeply resenting serving staff travellers...

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