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LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help  
User currently offlineBommerJan From UK - England, joined Dec 2005, 54 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 20870 times:

Apparently LH403 landed in DUB due to co pilot having migrane with help of B767 certified passenger's help.

sorry only in German

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gesel...kapitaen-beim-landen-a-868299.html

Anyone know which airline the passenger works for?

[Edited 2012-11-20 06:57:46]

88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 20934 times:

It says he's a pilot with a North American airline and they are flying into EWR. So I'm guessing United...


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 20935 times:
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Quoting BommerJan (Thread starter):
aving migrane

And due to that he was incapacitated and couldn't perfom his duties anymore.

Another link here:

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45946e02&opt=0

Quoting BommerJan (Thread starter):
Anyone know which airline the passenger works for?

It is said a North American airline, which can be several.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinefn1001 From Moldova, joined Sep 2008, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 20966 times:

Quoting BommerJan (Thread starter):
Anyone know which airline the passenger works for?

Air Berlin, formerly LTU, according to _unconfirmed_ _rumours_.



Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 20963 times:
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Quoting fn1001 (Reply 3):
Air Berlin, formerly LTU, according to _unconfirmed_ _rumours_.

That would be against the article which said a North American Airline. And Air Berlin is not really North American 

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 811 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 20959 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 4):
And Air Berlin is not really North American

Historically speaking they were a North American company until 1991.


User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 20957 times:
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Quoting CARST (Reply 5):
Historically speaking they were a North American company until 1991.

Of course, if you see it like that, then Air Berlin is a North American Airline. But I guess we can agree that it is now a German Airline and I guess that spiegel.de is referring to a North American Airline like UA, DL or similar.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 811 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 20949 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 6):
Of course, if you see it like that, then Air Berlin is a North American Airline. But I guess we can agree that it is now a German Airline and I guess that spiegel.de is referring to a North American Airline like UA, DL or similar.

Absolutely, I was just nitpicking a little bit... ^^


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 20946 times:

Quoting fn1001 (Reply 3):
Air Berlin, formerly LTU, according to _unconfirmed_ _rumours_.

A B767 certified pilot at Air Berlin?


User currently offlinetymnbalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 944 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 20946 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 4):
That would be against the article which said a North American Airline. And Air Berlin is not really North American

Could s/he be a pilot with North American Airlines? Odd it would say "a North American airline" vs. "an American airline", "a Canadian airline" or "a Mexican airline."



Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 20943 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 8):

Quoting fn1001 (Reply 3):
Air Berlin, formerly LTU, according to _unconfirmed_ _rumours_.

A B767 certified pilot at Air Berlin?

Maybe he stayed certified after LTU got rid of them over a decade ago.  



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 20949 times:
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Quoting tymnbalewne (Reply 9):
Could s/he be a pilot with North American Airlines? Odd it would say "a North American airline" vs. "an American airline", "a Canadian airline" or "a Mexican airline."

Translated from the article it says: "Working for an airline from North America." So I guess it could be North American Airline, but it could be any other airline from North America as well.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 20949 times:

The article in German says he fell ill with a migraine.

The North American Airline could be even be UPS.

Everyone was safe and that's what really matters!



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 811 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 20946 times:

Hey wilco737,

what is SOP in such a case? Autoland? Or would the LH pilot do a manual landing?



And would it have been different if there is no other pilot onboard? Would he do a Autoland in this case to focus on the PNF duties?


User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 20948 times:
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Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
what is SOP in such a case? Autoland? Or would the LH pilot do a manual landing?

An Autoland would be possible, but the problem is usually the ground equipment. For Autoland the ground has to observe many different things as well. You can do a simulated autoland. Means you perform the autoland, but the ground stays on "CAT I" procedures. As you are visual and do not require the autoland you can perform a go around if something goes wrong.

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
And would it have been different if there is no other pilot onboard? Would he do a Autoland in this case to focus on the PNF duties?

It is always good to have another set of eyes on board to see what you are doing, as we all can make mistakes.
As we pilots are trained on the airplane I would think that he flew the airplane with autopilot quite long, but did the landing manually. But that's only a guess.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently onlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 748 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 20947 times:

I am assuming the 767 captain was not jump seating and was in the cabin as a regular passenger. What's the protocol for checking if there are any qualified passengers in the back? I would imagine a PA would sort of alarm the passengers.

User currently offlinezbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1982 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 20949 times:

Abso

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
And would it have been different if there is no other pilot onboard? Would he do a Autoland in this case to focus on the PNF duties?

Absolutely not. The pilot would have "focused" on the PF duties while including the PNF duties. As PF even with the auto pilot on primary duties are to keep the airplane safe at all times and actively "fly/monitor". A perfect example would be what happened in the everglades when 3/3 pilots focused on an issue that did not include flying the airplane. They realized too late and were not capable of saving the aircraft.

As a PF you would normally call the PNF to action gear down, flap selection, FMGC/FMS programming etc.. so in this case you'd just have to do it yourself (or have the second pilot help).

There is much more to auto land than a regular landing. The only time an auto land may be preferred would be if all the type specific pilots became incapacitated. With an auto land the level of service of an airport needs to be higher (not even sure if DUB has a Cat 3 level of service). The navigation systems have to be protected (no-one taxiing around in the radio beams from the LOC/GS) and someone will need to monitor the aircraft for any degradation of Auto land capability if you're not type rated it's hard to know what to look for in a specific plane.

Turning the AP off sometimes can make everything simpler.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2377 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 20948 times:

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 17):
(not even sure if DUB has a Cat 3 level of service

They definitely have CAT II, probably even CAT III, not sure, as usually in Europe, CAT III approach plates aren't published for public use as they are in North America.

http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Publ...les/EIDW/EI_AD_2_EIDW_24-20_en.pdf

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-11-20 09:30:09]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 20946 times:
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Quoting zbbylw (Reply 17):
Absolutely not. The pilot would have "focused" on the PF duties while including the PNF duties. As PF even with the auto pilot on primary duties are to keep the airplane safe at all times and actively "fly/monitor". A perfect example would be what happened in the everglades when 3/3 pilots focused on an issue that did not include flying the airplane. They realized too late and were not capable of saving the aircraft.

You can still do an autoland and many airlines suggest to do an autoland. And as you are visual and don't have only 75m visisbility you can see when the autopilot is doing weird things and still disconnect it.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineAirxliban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4506 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 20943 times:

Glad that they made it safely to DUB. I used to fly LH FRA-DUB all the time, I would have been beside myself if I showed up to the airport to see a 747 there!

Quick question - what kind of announcement does the Captain make in such a circumstance? I imagine that letting the passengers know that there is only one guy up in front would be slightly discomfortig.



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 20947 times:
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Quoting Airxliban (Reply 20):
Quick question - what kind of announcement does the Captain make in such a circumstance? I imagine that letting the passengers know that there is only one guy up in front would be slightly discomfortig.

If the passengers even find out. The flight deck of the 744 is seperated from the cabin and on the upper deck is only 8 F class seats. So not many passenger would see it anyway.
And the crew rest is right behind the flight deck as well, so no need to leave that area.

Of course latest when diverting to DUB he needs to do an announcement and then just be honest. The passengers will find out eventually anyway. And telling the passenger one pilot is enough and another one is assisting should be fine.
Most passengers are even worried when they see me with 34 years flying a 747. Original quote:" Are you the captain?"
Me: "No, I am the Senior First officer." Passenger: "Is there a captain with grey hair in the cockpit?" Me: "Yes." Passenger: "Ok, than I feel safe..."


wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4161 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 20942 times:

Yes, Dublin has CAT III capability. LH divert here quite frequently.


Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7201 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 20944 times:

Sounds like a brutal migrane  
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 2):

Has that ever happened to you, you or a different pilot have an incapacitation issue on your flight?



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 20945 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
Has that ever happened to you, you or a different pilot have an incapacitation issue on your flight?

No, only once after the flight on the 737. We were on the parking position and then the captain had to throw up and called in sick of course.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
Sounds like a brutal migrane

Migrane can be brutal and can let you be incapacited and not doing anything instead getting into the horizontal, lights off, no noise and suffer...

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineHOMsAR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 21521 times:

Quoting CARST (Reply 7):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 6):
Of course, if you see it like that, then Air Berlin is a North American Airline. But I guess we can agree that it is now a German Airline and I guess that spiegel.de is referring to a North American Airline like UA, DL or similar.

Absolutely, I was just nitpicking a little bit... ^^

Well, if you really want to be technical, even if Berlin was under US control, it was no more a part of North America than Hong Kong was a part of Europe.

North America is a continent. Berlin is not on that continent.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
25 ushermittwoch : Air Berlin was founded in Oregon, which is in North America.
26 Post contains images N14AZ : Maybe someone in cockpit mentioned the words "sex" and "tonight" so she applied the proper female SOP for such situations... Whoever said these words
27 Rara : Ah yes, those bloody hangovers.
28 Post contains images cbphoto : Everyone that is asking what the protocol is for having passengers assist in the flight deck, will be disappointed to learn that there is no protocol
29 FlyHossD : IIRC, a Continental 757 operating IAH-PVR diverted into McAllen, Texas a few years ago when one of the pilots became incapacitated. A announcement wa
30 brilondon : This is really pushing the North American airline rational. Most of us normal (and I use the term normal very, very loosely) people would think that
31 TransIsland : In standard German use it's not odd at all, it is the accurate expression to refer to an island from that continent. And while it well be UA, the onl
32 georgiaame : Migraines are a no-no in the US for flying, for this very reason. Something is missing in this story.
33 BreninTW : It could also be an AC pilot ...
34 shamrock604 : Could have been his first one! I had one migraine ever in my life - which helped diagnose a thyroid problem. Never had one since.
35 TransIsland : Now why I wrote "island" I have no clue. I meant airline. Another circumstance that makes it less likely to be a clue for North American Airlines is
36 FI642 : My friends at NAA have confirmed it was a pilot from North American Airlines who assisted with the landing. Good Job!
37 C010T3 : Considering the whole discussion here, that makes it ll pretty hilarious! It wasn't "a" but it was "the" North American Airlines.
38 FI642 : When you translate the article from German to English, it sort of loses something, doesn't it. Today I tried to explain it to a friend, and translate
39 captainstefan : 4/4 if you count Donadeo, who was in the jumpseat for the flight and was 'assisting' with the landing gear indicator troubleshoot.
40 TWA772LR : Wouldn't there be a spare crew or at least another FO since this was a long flight? I'm assuming this flight is about 8 hours long.
41 Post contains images tymnbalewne : Huh? Oh. Ah HAH!!! What probably happened is that someone told the journalist that the assisting pilot worked for North American Airlines but the jou
42 OzGlobal : Will this mean the end of the first officer's career due to unacceptable risk in future?
43 ushermittwoch : Of course nobody would think that, I was just correcting the poster who suggested that Air Berlin was founded in Berlin...
44 SFO2SVO : Going to EWR, fairly long flight, they did not have third pilot / relieve captain on board?
45 EagleBoy : Interestingly the newspaper articles in Ireland are stating that 'a pilot landed a passenger jet' the poor captain is mentioned in passing. No need f
46 Rara : No, a pilot is too much of a valuable asset to be dismissed just off this one instance. It'll mean extensive medical checks, perhaps flying only in e
47 Post contains links BNEFlyer : The flight was going from EWR to FRA. http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/l...board/story-e6frfq80-1226520825312 If you can excuse the spelling errors
48 DALCE : Would a so called 'virtual pilot' who has made his flighthours behind the desktop at home with FSX for example be of any use in such a case. I can im
49 EagleBoy : Not a chance. The off duty guy had his airline ID and was easily able to prove he could be of use. A PC pilot (however much they may be familiar with
50 na : When AB bought Swiss airline Belair in 2007 they inherited a few 767s, 2 or 3 if I remember right. Towards the end these planes carried the AB logo.
51 ltbewr : Is it possible the passenger who was a pilot was on an airline pass so known to be a pilot by the F/A's or even the PIC ? That he/she was able to assi
52 HOMsAR : Learn something new every day. "By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" (I mean, seriously, 51 replies and no reference t
53 flyingalex : No, FRA-NYC (both EWR and JFK) is a short enough flight that duty time regulations permit rostering only two pilots.
54 Post contains images wilco737 : Exactly. They are rather short to be honest. BOS, EWR, JFK, IAD and ORD are flown with 2 pilots (on the 744), some other destinations like PHL on the
55 s5daw : As someone who enjoys flight sim now and then and who actually spent some hours in the cockpit - not a chance. Not a single chance: - virtual cockpit
56 Post contains images DALCE : Those factors were exactly the things where I was doubting, although one can be very familiar with the cokcpit layout etc. which might be helpful sin
57 garpd : This leads me to a question I’m very much interested in hearing opinions on: Say both pilots become incapacitated and a call for help has not produ
58 lotpilot16 : I have seen that out of ORD, LH flights are operated by 2 pilot crews except ORD-MUC is always a 3 pilot crew. My question is for the ORD-FRA flights
59 EagleBoy : I would guess that the captain made the announcement about the diversion when the cabin crew/medical doctor realised that the F/O would not be recove
60 Post contains links and images s5daw : Well, I hope iI never find out That's all great, but: go out and buy an RC model airplane, something simple, e.g. this http://goo.gl/xf72M Next, find
61 garpd : Thanks, but I've flown the real deal (albeit a C152). Wasn't so bad. Instructor said I was a natural and why wasn't I already a pilot. I answered qui
62 Post contains images flyingturtle : I'd say an a.net aficionado stands a better chance than somebody who is a FSX aficionado. We discuss CRM, navigation, communication, aircraft enginee
63 cbphoto : No Offense, but a person with a 1000 hours of flight sim experience and 0 hours of real world experience, would still be just that to me, a person wi
64 Post contains images wilco737 : The flight is during night and the union and the company agreed that it is more exhausting than the other and to be on the safe side they put the 3rd
65 Rara : No, why would they? They know what it looks like, but most take pride in not knowing "what all the little buttons do". I've been jumpseating once and
66 cbphoto : If that's the case, why not let anyone with X-box or Playstation experience up front? Heck, lets just start training our pilots on Microsoft Flight S
67 AR385 : IIRC, there was an article on Airways a few years back about a professional pilot testing two students whose flying experience was limited to the 172,
68 tdscanuck : Not if the remaining crew is practicing good CRM. But that would include using the sim pilot for what he's best at...systems monitoring. You're not g
69 Post contains links and images Rara : Ah yes, the righteous pilot indignation that always comes up when this topic is discussed. There's a great thread on PPRUNE about this where the resi
70 Viscount724 : There was another case last week on a CX 77W HKG-YYZ. Following excerpt from the Transport Canada daily occurrence reports for November 16. I guess i
71 brilondon : Well than, we don't need the hundreds of hours in flight school and in real simulators as well as lots of flights in a real airplanes; thousands of d
72 tdscanuck : You're mixing two things together that are actually very different. Pilots are heavily trained (and rightly so) so that they react properly and promp
73 cbphoto : I agree, but if the other guy was incapacitated, would you really let a 15 year old flight simmer load a flight plan in the FMC? What if he screws it
74 tdscanuck : If he knew how to do it, yes. Then you're in the same position you'd have been if you didn't have him at all, which is to say, no worse than before.
75 Post contains images United727 : A few years back? This is an apples and oranges comparison (DC-8 as compared to the B777 or the A330) with regard to the modernization of commercial
76 Post contains links s5daw : We need to take the Dunning-Kruger effect into the consideration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect It predicts exactly that simmer
77 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : And check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence - the real problem is that nobody can put himself into the first stage... In thi
78 EagleBoy : How exactly can this be proven? It cannot so you would have to err on the side of caution and assume that any random virtual pilot is a nutjob who ha
79 Maverick623 : Flying is easy. Landing is not as easy. I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the most qualified guy on the airplane, and I'm very familiar with
80 Post contains links s5daw : I think this video shows some insight into a simmer's mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqs2SxFuCNQ Note the little shortcuts, personal preferences
81 B777LRF : A "virtual" pilot would about as much use as an ashtray on a motorcycle. See above. There are two chances: None and zero.
82 AmericanAirFan : I was a bit of a flight simulator junky before starting my flying career. I have a few thousand hours in flight sim. However, you cannot count that to
83 airtechy : Interesting topic. If you assume that the plane was configured correctly in cruise when this event accrued, how many different switches, buttons, etc.
84 brilondon : This is what I see as well for this situation. Frankly, I would not want any of you pilot wannabes flying in the place of a real pilot. Please don't
85 tdscanuck : How do you prove that your F/O won't pull back and stall the airplane at altitude? You can't do that either...and then you get AF447. The point is yo
86 cbphoto : But their is a difference from having a competent pilot that is not type rated in your aircraft, then having a flight simmer with 0 hours of real wor
87 tdscanuck : I agree there's a difference. But, given that we know we've got one person up front who does have real world experience and can actually fly the airp
88 B777LRF : Put it this way. A very good friend of mine is a training captain (TRI/TRE) on the B757 with 15K+ hours under his belt, and is often paired with 200 h
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