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LH 747 Landed In DUB With Passenger's Help  
User currently offlineBommerJan From UK - England, joined Dec 2005, 54 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20970 times:

Apparently LH403 landed in DUB due to co pilot having migrane with help of B767 certified passenger's help.

sorry only in German

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gesel...kapitaen-beim-landen-a-868299.html

Anyone know which airline the passenger works for?

[Edited 2012-11-20 06:57:46]

88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21034 times:

It says he's a pilot with a North American airline and they are flying into EWR. So I'm guessing United...


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21035 times:
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Quoting BommerJan (Thread starter):
aving migrane

And due to that he was incapacitated and couldn't perfom his duties anymore.

Another link here:

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45946e02&opt=0

Quoting BommerJan (Thread starter):
Anyone know which airline the passenger works for?

It is said a North American airline, which can be several.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinefn1001 From Moldova, joined Sep 2008, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21066 times:

Quoting BommerJan (Thread starter):
Anyone know which airline the passenger works for?

Air Berlin, formerly LTU, according to _unconfirmed_ _rumours_.



Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21063 times:
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Quoting fn1001 (Reply 3):
Air Berlin, formerly LTU, according to _unconfirmed_ _rumours_.

That would be against the article which said a North American Airline. And Air Berlin is not really North American 

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21059 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 4):
And Air Berlin is not really North American

Historically speaking they were a North American company until 1991.


User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21057 times:
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Quoting CARST (Reply 5):
Historically speaking they were a North American company until 1991.

Of course, if you see it like that, then Air Berlin is a North American Airline. But I guess we can agree that it is now a German Airline and I guess that spiegel.de is referring to a North American Airline like UA, DL or similar.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21049 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 6):
Of course, if you see it like that, then Air Berlin is a North American Airline. But I guess we can agree that it is now a German Airline and I guess that spiegel.de is referring to a North American Airline like UA, DL or similar.

Absolutely, I was just nitpicking a little bit... ^^


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3703 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21046 times:

Quoting fn1001 (Reply 3):
Air Berlin, formerly LTU, according to _unconfirmed_ _rumours_.

A B767 certified pilot at Air Berlin?


User currently offlinetymnbalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 949 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21046 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 4):
That would be against the article which said a North American Airline. And Air Berlin is not really North American

Could s/he be a pilot with North American Airlines? Odd it would say "a North American airline" vs. "an American airline", "a Canadian airline" or "a Mexican airline."



Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21043 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 8):

Quoting fn1001 (Reply 3):
Air Berlin, formerly LTU, according to _unconfirmed_ _rumours_.

A B767 certified pilot at Air Berlin?

Maybe he stayed certified after LTU got rid of them over a decade ago.  



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21049 times:
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Quoting tymnbalewne (Reply 9):
Could s/he be a pilot with North American Airlines? Odd it would say "a North American airline" vs. "an American airline", "a Canadian airline" or "a Mexican airline."

Translated from the article it says: "Working for an airline from North America." So I guess it could be North American Airline, but it could be any other airline from North America as well.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21049 times:

The article in German says he fell ill with a migraine.

The North American Airline could be even be UPS.

Everyone was safe and that's what really matters!



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21046 times:

Hey wilco737,

what is SOP in such a case? Autoland? Or would the LH pilot do a manual landing?



And would it have been different if there is no other pilot onboard? Would he do a Autoland in this case to focus on the PNF duties?


User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21048 times:
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Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
what is SOP in such a case? Autoland? Or would the LH pilot do a manual landing?

An Autoland would be possible, but the problem is usually the ground equipment. For Autoland the ground has to observe many different things as well. You can do a simulated autoland. Means you perform the autoland, but the ground stays on "CAT I" procedures. As you are visual and do not require the autoland you can perform a go around if something goes wrong.

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
And would it have been different if there is no other pilot onboard? Would he do a Autoland in this case to focus on the PNF duties?

It is always good to have another set of eyes on board to see what you are doing, as we all can make mistakes.
As we pilots are trained on the airplane I would think that he flew the airplane with autopilot quite long, but did the landing manually. But that's only a guess.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 764 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21047 times:

I am assuming the 767 captain was not jump seating and was in the cabin as a regular passenger. What's the protocol for checking if there are any qualified passengers in the back? I would imagine a PA would sort of alarm the passengers.

User currently offlinezbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1985 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21049 times:

Abso

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
And would it have been different if there is no other pilot onboard? Would he do a Autoland in this case to focus on the PNF duties?

Absolutely not. The pilot would have "focused" on the PF duties while including the PNF duties. As PF even with the auto pilot on primary duties are to keep the airplane safe at all times and actively "fly/monitor". A perfect example would be what happened in the everglades when 3/3 pilots focused on an issue that did not include flying the airplane. They realized too late and were not capable of saving the aircraft.

As a PF you would normally call the PNF to action gear down, flap selection, FMGC/FMS programming etc.. so in this case you'd just have to do it yourself (or have the second pilot help).

There is much more to auto land than a regular landing. The only time an auto land may be preferred would be if all the type specific pilots became incapacitated. With an auto land the level of service of an airport needs to be higher (not even sure if DUB has a Cat 3 level of service). The navigation systems have to be protected (no-one taxiing around in the radio beams from the LOC/GS) and someone will need to monitor the aircraft for any degradation of Auto land capability if you're not type rated it's hard to know what to look for in a specific plane.

Turning the AP off sometimes can make everything simpler.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2489 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21048 times:

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 17):
(not even sure if DUB has a Cat 3 level of service

They definitely have CAT II, probably even CAT III, not sure, as usually in Europe, CAT III approach plates aren't published for public use as they are in North America.

http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Publ...les/EIDW/EI_AD_2_EIDW_24-20_en.pdf

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-11-20 09:30:09]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21046 times:
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Quoting zbbylw (Reply 17):
Absolutely not. The pilot would have "focused" on the PF duties while including the PNF duties. As PF even with the auto pilot on primary duties are to keep the airplane safe at all times and actively "fly/monitor". A perfect example would be what happened in the everglades when 3/3 pilots focused on an issue that did not include flying the airplane. They realized too late and were not capable of saving the aircraft.

You can still do an autoland and many airlines suggest to do an autoland. And as you are visual and don't have only 75m visisbility you can see when the autopilot is doing weird things and still disconnect it.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineAirxliban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4512 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21043 times:

Glad that they made it safely to DUB. I used to fly LH FRA-DUB all the time, I would have been beside myself if I showed up to the airport to see a 747 there!

Quick question - what kind of announcement does the Captain make in such a circumstance? I imagine that letting the passengers know that there is only one guy up in front would be slightly discomfortig.



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 21047 times:
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Quoting Airxliban (Reply 20):
Quick question - what kind of announcement does the Captain make in such a circumstance? I imagine that letting the passengers know that there is only one guy up in front would be slightly discomfortig.

If the passengers even find out. The flight deck of the 744 is seperated from the cabin and on the upper deck is only 8 F class seats. So not many passenger would see it anyway.
And the crew rest is right behind the flight deck as well, so no need to leave that area.

Of course latest when diverting to DUB he needs to do an announcement and then just be honest. The passengers will find out eventually anyway. And telling the passenger one pilot is enough and another one is assisting should be fine.
Most passengers are even worried when they see me with 34 years flying a 747. Original quote:" Are you the captain?"
Me: "No, I am the Senior First officer." Passenger: "Is there a captain with grey hair in the cockpit?" Me: "Yes." Passenger: "Ok, than I feel safe..."


wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4175 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 21042 times:

Yes, Dublin has CAT III capability. LH divert here quite frequently.


Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 21044 times:

Sounds like a brutal migrane  
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 2):

Has that ever happened to you, you or a different pilot have an incapacitation issue on your flight?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 21045 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
Has that ever happened to you, you or a different pilot have an incapacitation issue on your flight?

No, only once after the flight on the 737. We were on the parking position and then the captain had to throw up and called in sick of course.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
Sounds like a brutal migrane

Migrane can be brutal and can let you be incapacited and not doing anything instead getting into the horizontal, lights off, no noise and suffer...

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineHOMsAR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 21621 times:

Quoting CARST (Reply 7):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 6):
Of course, if you see it like that, then Air Berlin is a North American Airline. But I guess we can agree that it is now a German Airline and I guess that spiegel.de is referring to a North American Airline like UA, DL or similar.

Absolutely, I was just nitpicking a little bit... ^^

Well, if you really want to be technical, even if Berlin was under US control, it was no more a part of North America than Hong Kong was a part of Europe.

North America is a continent. Berlin is not on that continent.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 22437 times:

Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 25):
Well, if you really want to be technical, even if Berlin was under US control, it was no more a part of North America than Hong Kong was a part of Europe.

North America is a continent. Berlin is not on that continent.


Air Berlin was founded in Oregon, which is in North America.



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently onlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2707 posts, RR: 25
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 22931 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
...another question about the migrane - was the FO female?

Maybe someone in cockpit mentioned the words "sex" and "tonight" so she applied the proper female SOP for such situations... Whoever said these words is fully responsible to what happened!  


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2086 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 22674 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 24):
No, only once after the flight on the 737. We were on the parking position and then the captain had to throw up and called in sick of course.

Ah yes, those bloody hangovers.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1555 posts, RR: 5
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 21513 times:

Everyone that is asking what the protocol is for having passengers assist in the flight deck, will be disappointed to learn that there is no protocol that exists. These situations are very uncommon in the day to day life of a pilot. I would hope the pilot flying would use their best judgment when a situation like this occurs, but even a private pilot would be of great value in the flight deck when a situation occurs that leaves a pilot incapacitated. Also, their is still one qualified pilot in the flight deck, so I am not sure why everyone is asking about an auto land, seeing as though the qualified pilot is also qualified to land the plane  


ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 888 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 20981 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 16):

I am assuming the 767 captain was not jump seating and was in the cabin as a regular passenger. What's the protocol for checking if there are any qualified passengers in the back? I would imagine a PA would sort of alarm the passengers.

IIRC, a Continental 757 operating IAH-PVR diverted into McAllen, Texas a few years ago when one of the pilots became incapacitated.

A announcement was made asking for any pilot rated passengers and a private pilot did assist in the diversion to McAllen.

Unfortunately, the ill pilot passed away.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 20299 times:

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 25):
Air Berlin was founded in Oregon, which is in North America.

This is really pushing the North American airline rational. Most of us normal (and I use the term normal very, very loosely) people would think that Air Berlin was German. Just a crazy whacked out notion. Also, the pilot was a 767 pilot and I don't think that Air Berlin has the 767 in its fleet. I think that in a pinch a 767 pilot could probably land a 747 if necessary.

[Edited 2012-11-20 17:16:08]


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 20077 times:

Quoting tymnbalewne (Reply 9):
Could s/he be a pilot with North American Airlines? Odd it would say "a North American airline" vs. "an American airline", "a Canadian airline" or "a Mexican airline."

In standard German use it's not odd at all, it is the accurate expression to refer to an island from that continent.

And while it well be UA, the only reason EWR was mentioned in the article is that the LH flight originated from there, so EWR in this case is not really a clue as to the 767 pilot's employer.



I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlinegeorgiaame From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 19844 times:

Migraines are a no-no in the US for flying, for this very reason. Something is missing in this story.


"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlineBreninTW From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1644 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 19639 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 11):
"Working for an airline from North America."

It could also be an AC pilot ...



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4175 posts, RR: 12
Reply 34, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 19570 times:

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 32):
Migraines are a no-no in the US for flying, for this very reason. Something is missing in this story.

Could have been his first one!

I had one migraine ever in my life - which helped diagnose a thyroid problem. Never had one since.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 35, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 18508 times:

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 31):
In standard German use it's not odd at all, it is the accurate expression to refer to an island from that continent.

Now why I wrote "island" I have no clue. I meant airline.

Another circumstance that makes it less likely to be a clue for North American Airlines is the fact the "North American" in German is one word, not capitalised: "a northamerican airline."



I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 36, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 18482 times:

My friends at NAA have confirmed it was a pilot from North American Airlines who assisted with the landing.

Good Job!



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3703 posts, RR: 19
Reply 37, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day ago) and read 17115 times:

Quoting FI642 (Reply 36):
My friends at NAA have confirmed it was a pilot from North American Airlines who assisted with the landing.

Considering the whole discussion here, that makes it ll pretty hilarious! It wasn't "a" but it was "the" North American Airlines.


User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 38, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day ago) and read 16981 times:

When you translate the article from German to English, it sort of loses something, doesn't it. Today I tried to explain it to a friend, and translate it out word for word... she finally said "stop!" I just laughed. My Tante Annegret says "I don't know why we say things the way we do."


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlinecaptainstefan From United States of America, joined May 2007, 429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 16381 times:

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 16):
3/3 pilots focused on an issue that did not include flying the airplane

4/4 if you count Donadeo, who was in the jumpseat for the flight and was 'assisting' with the landing gear indicator troubleshoot.



Long Live the Tulip!
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2043 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 16101 times:

Wouldn't there be a spare crew or at least another FO since this was a long flight? I'm assuming this flight is about 8 hours long.


Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlinetymnbalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 949 posts, RR: 1
Reply 41, posted (1 year 10 months 22 hours ago) and read 15482 times:

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 31):
In standard German use it's not odd at all, it is the accurate expression to refer to an island from that continent.

Huh?

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 35):
Now why I wrote "island" I have no clue. I meant airline.

Oh.

Quoting FI642 (Reply 36):
My friends at NAA have confirmed it was a pilot from North American Airlines who assisted with the landing.

Ah HAH!!!

What probably happened is that someone told the journalist that the assisting pilot worked for North American Airlines but the journalist, not having heard of it thought it was "a north American airline."

And yes, I'm patting myself on the back! 



Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 42, posted (1 year 10 months 21 hours ago) and read 14113 times:

Will this mean the end of the first officer's career due to unacceptable risk in future?


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 43, posted (1 year 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 13797 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 30):
This is really pushing the North American airline rational. Most of us normal (and I use the term normal very, very loosely) people would think that Air Berlin was German. Just a crazy whacked out notion.

Of course nobody would think that, I was just correcting the poster who suggested that Air Berlin was founded in Berlin...



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineSFO2SVO From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 13191 times:

Going to EWR, fairly long flight, they did not have third pilot / relieve captain on board?


318-19-20-21 332 343 717 727 737-234578 743-4 752 763 772 D9/10 M11/8x/90 F70 RJ85 ATR72 SF340 E120 TU34/54 IL18/62/86/9
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (1 year 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 12517 times:
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Quoting cbphoto (Reply 28):
Also, their is still one qualified pilot in the flight deck, so I am not sure why everyone is asking about an auto land, seeing as though the qualified pilot is also qualified to land the plane

Interestingly the newspaper articles in Ireland are stating that 'a pilot landed a passenger jet' the poor captain is mentioned in passing.

Quoting SFO2SVO (Reply 44):
Going to EWR, fairly long flight, they did not have third pilot / relieve captain on board?

No need for a relief pilot unless the flight time ia over 9 hrs 30 mins (I stand to be corrected on that figure btw)

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 42):
Will this mean the end of the first officer's career due to unacceptable risk in future?

Poor guy, it could well be an issue. The migraine may indicate an underlying medical problem. And I doubt LH can allow him to fly until the reason for the severe migraine has been discovered.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2086 posts, RR: 2
Reply 46, posted (1 year 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 12459 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 42):
Will this mean the end of the first officer's career due to unacceptable risk in future?

No, a pilot is too much of a valuable asset to be dismissed just off this one instance. It'll mean extensive medical checks, perhaps flying only in enlarged crews for a while, etc. - but it's not the end of the career yet.

Pilot incapacitation is more common than one may think - and the reasons can be quite varied, but psychological and physical. Coming from a family of airline employees, I've heard stories of the years that you wouldn't believe, and which for good reason are kept from public attention.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineBNEFlyer From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 12032 times:
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Quoting SFO2SVO (Reply 44):
Going to EWR, fairly long flight, they did not have third pilot / relieve captain on board?

The flight was going from EWR to FRA.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/l...board/story-e6frfq80-1226520825312 If you can excuse the spelling errors and the pic of an A380.


User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1687 posts, RR: 7
Reply 48, posted (1 year 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 11692 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 28):
but even a private pilot would be of great value in the flight deck when a situation occurs that leaves a pilot incapacitated

Would a so called 'virtual pilot' who has made his flighthours behind the desktop at home with FSX for example be of any use in such a case. I can imagine that even this 'kind of pilots' would be able to assist to a certain (low) degree.

Not that I would feel anyware near capable with my very low skills in FSX, but some people are able to fly EWR-FRA real-time on their PC at home including programming the FMS and having knowledge of some basic general SOP's being used in some real cockpits.



flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (1 year 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 11503 times:
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Quoting DALCE (Reply 48):
Would a so called 'virtual pilot' who has made his flighthours behind the desktop at home with FSX for example be of any use in such a case. I can imagine that even this 'kind of pilots' would be able to assist to a certain (low) degree.

Not a chance. The off duty guy had his airline ID and was easily able to prove he could be of use. A PC pilot (however much they may be familiar with the interior of a cockpit) is just another passenger in this instance. You can be sure that the B767 pilot was 'vetted' before being allowed near the captain. (In onboard medical situations even doctors must show ID before being allowed to assist)
A PPL holder in possession of an valid ID/license may be useful for checklists and comms.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10733 posts, RR: 9
Reply 50, posted (1 year 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 11402 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 8):
A B767 certified pilot at Air Berlin?

When AB bought Swiss airline Belair in 2007 they inherited a few 767s, 2 or 3 if I remember right. Towards the end these planes carried the AB logo.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
Sounds like a brutal migrane  

I think just a standard migrane attack means the man couldnt do his work anymore. I suffer from a similar chronic ache from time to time and any work needing concentration is impossible then.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 51, posted (1 year 10 months 15 hours ago) and read 9604 times:

Is it possible the passenger who was a pilot was on an airline pass so known to be a pilot by the F/A's or even the PIC ?
That he/she was able to assist was good and reduced the still very low risk of only one pilot in the cockpit.


User currently offlineHOMsAR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 10 months 15 hours ago) and read 8775 times:

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 25):
Air Berlin was founded in Oregon, which is in North America.

Learn something new every day.


"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" (I mean, seriously, 51 replies and no reference to that, yet?)



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 8137 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 40):
Wouldn't there be a spare crew or at least another FO since this was a long flight? I'm assuming this flight is about 8 hours long.
Quoting SFO2SVO (Reply 44):
Going to EWR, fairly long flight, they did not have third pilot / relieve captain on board?

No, FRA-NYC (both EWR and JFK) is a short enough flight that duty time regulations permit rostering only two pilots.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 54, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 7803 times:
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Quoting flyingalex (Reply 53):
o, FRA-NYC (both EWR and JFK) is a short enough flight that duty time regulations permit rostering only two pilots.

Exactly. They are rather short to be honest. BOS, EWR, JFK, IAD and ORD are flown with 2 pilots (on the 744), some other destinations like PHL on the 340 are 2 pilots as well. I mean BOS-FRA during strong wind, the flight time is less than 6 hours... So not really long haul  

At LH it is not the flight time, it is the flight distance which makes the difference between 2 pilots or 3 pilots. And of course company/ union agreements.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlines5daw From Slovenia, joined May 2011, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 7511 times:

Quoting DALCE (Reply 48):
Would a so called 'virtual pilot' who has made his flighthours behind the desktop at home with FSX for example be of any use in such a case. I can imagine that even this 'kind of pilots' would be able to assist to a certain (low) degree.

As someone who enjoys flight sim now and then and who actually spent some hours in the cockpit - not a chance. Not a single chance:
- virtual cockpit has environmental factors. You can't imagine how different it is to fly virtually or when a real turbulence is throwing you all over the place.
- most virtual pilots don't really execute checklists. They don't know memory items.
- stress. Virtually, you can do many things. You can crash and respawn. There is 0 stress. When you are landing a real plane - even if it's just a cessna 150, oh boy, how does the time fly. Flaps, left turn, trim, report final, curb heat, approach, watch the airspeed, tunnel vision... Oh boy... I can land a virtual 747 single handed, yet I never even soloed in a real c 150.


User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1687 posts, RR: 7
Reply 56, posted (1 year 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 7178 times:

Quoting s5daw (Reply 55):
As someone who enjoys flight sim now and then and who actually spent some hours in the cockpit - not a chance. Not a single chance:
- virtual cockpit has environmental factors. You can't imagine how different it is to fly virtually or when a real turbulence is throwing you all over the place.
- most virtual pilots don't really execute checklists. They don't know memory items.
- stress. Virtually, you can do many things. You can crash and respawn. There is 0 stress. When you are landing a real plane - even if it's just a cessna 150, oh boy, how does the time fly. Flaps, left turn, trim, report final, curb heat, approach, watch the airspeed, tunnel vision... Oh boy... I can land a virtual 747 single handed, yet I never even soloed in a real c 150.

Those factors were exactly the things where I was doubting, although one can be very familiar with the cokcpit layout etc. which might be helpful since the captain is still operating the controls him/herself.
I fully agree that chances are second to none, but since it was not menioned I started wondering about it  



flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2654 posts, RR: 4
Reply 57, posted (1 year 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 7043 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 49):

Not a chance. The off duty guy had his airline ID and was easily able to prove he could be of use. A PC pilot (however much they may be familiar with the interior of a cockpit) is just another passenger in this instance. You can be sure that the B767 pilot was 'vetted' before being allowed near the captain. (In onboard medical situations even doctors must show ID before being allowed to assist)
A PPL holder in possession of an valid ID/license may be useful for checklists and comms.

This leads me to a question I’m very much interested in hearing opinions on:

Say both pilots become incapacitated and a call for help has not produced any pilots from the passengers.

If an FSX pilot with many, many hours under his virtual belt would offer his help, is it really going to be dismissed? Would the Airline and authorities really have a completely clueless FA (I’m not saying they all are, just this particular crew) step into the cockpit and get talked down, just because he/she works for the airline?

I would much rather have someone up there who at least knows the basics of the flightdeck and how to communicate properly (which most FSX pilots will do) and appreciate the number one rule: Airspeed = Life.


On a personal note, I know I could walk into a flight deck and know within a few seconds what course, speed and altitude we were at. Within a minute or two, I’d have the radios figured out. With a qualified person on the other end of the radio, I could probably get the plane into autoland. The person on the other end of the radio would not have to waste time and fuel by explaining what to look for, where it is and how to use it. They could just tell me what I need to press or dial and where it is if I couldn’t find it.
Anything to do with the autopilot panel on the glareshield I could do without being told how to.

For example, the instruction: “Turn heading 215 degrees and descend to FL090, select 250 knots speed” I’d know precisely how to do that in anything from a 737 to an A320 to a 787.

I’m not saying an FSX could manually fly and land a real aircraft; just that he/she would have more knowledge of the basics than the average FA.

I think someone with the money and balls should put this to the test. Grab a couple of FSX drivers (without telling them the true intention to prevent swatting up) and then put them in a sim without any warning.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlinelotpilot16 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 6905 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 54):
Exactly. They are rather short to be honest. BOS, EWR, JFK, IAD and ORD are flown with 2 pilots (on the 744)

I have seen that out of ORD, LH flights are operated by 2 pilot crews except ORD-MUC is always a 3 pilot crew. My question is for the ORD-FRA flights, the afternoon flight (LH431) is operated with 2 pilots, why is the night flight (LH433) operated with 3 pilots?


User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 59, posted (1 year 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 6901 times:
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Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 52):
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" (I mean, seriously, 51 replies and no reference to that, yet?)

I would guess that the captain made the announcement about the diversion when the cabin crew/medical doctor realised that the F/O would not be recovering anytime soon. I doubt he asked for a pilot, but as he explained the situation I would guess the off duty F/O realise he would be able to assist and came forward with his ID. Many crew travelling ID themselves as they board to allow the operating crew to know they are there to help if required, in any situation.It is part of the etiquette of flight/cabin crews travelling on staff passes.

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
This leads me to a question I’m very much interested in hearing opinions on:
Say both pilots become incapacitated and a call for help has not produced any pilots from the passengers.

If an FSX pilot with many, many hours under his virtual belt would offer his help, is it really going to be dismissed?

"many hours under his belt" ................exactly how can you prove this. Do you get a certificate? Frankly the cabin/flight crew would be in their rights to dismiss this person as a Walter Mitty figure. I have had many pax claim to be something they are not while onboard an aircraft.

Ever hear of a "Doctor of nails"? .......... I hadn't either until we made the call for a doctor several years ago. This American lady decided that she was eligible for that request. Or there was the "French Aviation Inspector" who wanted to discuss the diversion with the captain directly as he felt the captain was making the wrong decision. There was a man who obviously liked the feel of handcuffs.

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
I would much rather have someone up there who at least knows the basics of the flightdeck and how to communicate properly

How do you know that a particular airline doesn't have a program ensuring its cabin crew are able to operate the radios? And I think cabin crew will be a lot more familiar with an actual operational flight deck than an FSX aficionado.

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
I think someone with the money and balls should put this to the test. Grab a couple of FSX drivers (without telling them the true intention to prevent swatting up) and then put them in a sim without any warning.

I would like to see this, but of course in a sim the same 'respawn mentality' may be witnessed. Airline pilots know that they have to perform extremely well in this situation as they could well be called upon to do the same in real life.


User currently offlines5daw From Slovenia, joined May 2011, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 10 months 11 hours ago) and read 6850 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
If an FSX pilot with many, many hours under his virtual belt would offer his help, is it really going to be dismissed?

Well, I hope iI never find out  
Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
I would much rather have someone up there who at least knows the basics of the flightdeck and how to communicate properly (which most FSX pilots will do) and appreciate the number one rule: Airspeed = Life.

That's all great, but:
go out and buy an RC model airplane, something simple, e.g. this http://goo.gl/xf72M
Next, find a safe area, turn it on, throw it in the air and fly it. There is a very simple rule to follow: airspeed = life.
I absolutely guarantee your knees will be shaking, you'l be nervous, your moves uncoordinated. You'll have enough in a few minutes.

The point is, you have no idea how you'll react in a real life situation, when your life, and lives of many other people are at stake. Even flying a small RC airplane will get your brain into flight or fight mode, and with death breading at your neck, it's going to just go worse.

So, if I were in that kind of situation, I'd certainly give it a try, but It's probable I would die of a heart attack due to stress trying.

Of course people react differently to stress and maybe somebody else could handle it.
I'm totally amazed by the calmness of Mr. Chesley Sullenberger, for example "we can't do it, we are going to be in the Hudson". I don't tell I'm going to use the toilet this calmly.


User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2654 posts, RR: 4
Reply 61, posted (1 year 10 months 11 hours ago) and read 6664 times:

Quoting s5daw (Reply 60):
I absolutely guarantee your knees will be shaking, you'l be nervous, your moves uncoordinated. You'll have enough in a few minutes.

Thanks, but I've flown the real deal (albeit a C152). Wasn't so bad. Instructor said I was a natural and why wasn't I already a pilot. I answered quite sincerely: "Money"



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2403 posts, RR: 13
Reply 62, posted (1 year 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 6636 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):

I'd say an a.net aficionado stands a better chance than somebody who is a FSX aficionado. We discuss CRM, navigation, communication, aircraft engineering and flight physics on a nearly daily basis. If an accident happens like AF447, much is to be learnt too.

The a.net aficionado wouldn't actually need anything learnt with FSX flying. (Chances are that he's a 747 world champion on his computer, and oh vey, now he has to help out in a Dash 8). He could take over communication tasks, or use autopilot and autothrust to fly the A/C, giving the professional guy time to sort out a problem or going through the checklist.

I don't think any professional pilot would let anybody touch the controls if he says he can land a silicon 747 in a 70 kt crosswind with two engines out.  IMHO they would trust a jumpseat passenger much more.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1555 posts, RR: 5
Reply 63, posted (1 year 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 6656 times:

Quoting DALCE (Reply 48):
Would a so called 'virtual pilot' who has made his flighthours behind the desktop at home with FSX for example be of any use in such a case. I can imagine that even this 'kind of pilots' would be able to assist to a certain (low) degree.

Not that I would feel anyware near capable with my very low skills in FSX, but some people are able to fly EWR-FRA real-time on their PC at home including programming the FMS and having knowledge of some basic general SOP's being used in some real cockpits.

No Offense, but a person with a 1000 hours of flight sim experience and 0 hours of real world experience, would still be just that to me, a person with no flight experience. I used to sim on my computer a lot before I started flying professionally and I can honestly say I had no advantage over someone sitting next to me during flight training who had no experience at all. That being said, if no one else was available, I guess a person like you, could help with radios and such. The only problem, is anyone could realistically say they have flightsim experience, with no real way of verifying it. At least a pilot would have some sort of license or certificate, if they were a licensed pilot. Once you start getting people with limited or no flight experience up in the flight deck assisting you, it might more of a distraction to us rather then assistance.

Just my two cents!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 64, posted (1 year 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 6511 times:
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Quoting lotpilot16 (Reply 58):
My question is for the ORD-FRA flights, the afternoon flight (LH431) is operated with 2 pilots, why is the night flight (LH433) operated with 3 pilots?

The flight is during night and the union and the company agreed that it is more exhausting than the other and to be on the safe side they put the 3rd pilot on that flight, so that theycan have a rest.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2086 posts, RR: 2
Reply 65, posted (1 year 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 6464 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 59):
How do you know that a particular airline doesn't have a program ensuring its cabin crew are able to operate the radios? And I think cabin crew will be a lot more familiar with an actual operational flight deck than an FSX aficionado.

No, why would they? They know what it looks like, but most take pride in not knowing "what all the little buttons do". I've been jumpseating once and we asked the FA's some simple stuff, like "where would you switch the engines off" (could be quite relevant actually, if both pilots are incapacitated after a crash landing and the plane has to be evacuated). Less than half had any idea where to look.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 63):
No Offense, but a person with a 1000 hours of flight sim experience and 0 hours of real world experience, would still be just that to me, a person with no flight experience.

In such a scenario, the task really is to push the right buttons to get the autopilot to fly to a suitable airport and perform an autoland. To do that, I'd take a flight simmer over a private pilot any day.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1555 posts, RR: 5
Reply 66, posted (1 year 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 6245 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 65):
In such a scenario, the task really is to push the right buttons to get the autopilot to fly to a suitable airport and perform an autoland. To do that, I'd take a flight simmer over a private pilot any day.

If that's the case, why not let anyone with X-box or Playstation experience up front? Heck, lets just start training our pilots on Microsoft Flight Simulator?

Unless I know what the person is doing next to me, their is no way I would have them push any buttons. Handling radio communications and such would be appropriate for someone with little flight experience. A Private pilot has been though a government approved flight training program and his knowledge about certain situations will be far above and beyond the local simmer that plays around on his lap top computer. I would much rather have someone with 50-100 hours of real flight time under their belt up front with me, then a senior 747 Captain at X virtual airline!

And why do you, or everyone else assume that all they would do if an autoland? If the weather conditions are favorable, why would the one qualified pilot, who is qualified at landing the plane, now just land the plane? Also, I can imagine you do more on an autoland, then just hit a few random buttons?



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6203 posts, RR: 30
Reply 67, posted (1 year 10 months 8 hours ago) and read 6114 times:
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IIRC, there was an article on Airways a few years back about a professional pilot testing two students whose flying experience was limited to the 172, on a DC-8 simulator. He set them up at cruise level and the assignment was to descend and land. He used four guys. Can´t remember the details but it was disastrous. Nobody even made it to the airport environment.

Can´t imagine how someone whose experience is limited to FSX would do better.



MGGS
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 68, posted (1 year 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 5912 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
If an FSX pilot with many, many hours under his virtual belt would offer his help, is it really going to be dismissed?

Not if the remaining crew is practicing good CRM. But that would include using the sim pilot for what he's best at...systems monitoring. You're not going to let him fly the airplane.

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
Would the Airline and authorities really have a completely clueless FA (I’m not saying they all are, just this particular crew) step into the cockpit and get talked down, just because he/she works for the airline?

If they're completely clueless that would be terrible CRM. But finding a truly clueless FA is pretty hard.

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
I would much rather have someone up there who at least knows the basics of the flightdeck and how to communicate properly (which most FSX pilots will do) and appreciate the number one rule: Airspeed = Life.

Airspeed=life is not the problem you should be dealing with in pilot incapacitation; this kind of goes to my point that you want the sim guy working to his strengths, not trying to fly the airplane. The problem with incapacitation is workload management; the one guy in the flight deck who's actually trained and qualified to fly the plane should fly the plane. Then he should offload as much as makes sense to whatever resources he's got. That might mean having the sim guy monitor the instruments, having an FA man the radios, etc.

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
I think someone with the money and balls should put this to the test. Grab a couple of FSX drivers (without telling them the true intention to prevent swatting up) and then put them in a sim without any warning.

I've heard annecdotal stories of an airline doing this study many years ago but I don't know or any details or the results. Given what I've seen trained and certified ATP's do in unusual circumstances, I don't have much hope that the results were good.

Tom.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2086 posts, RR: 2
Reply 69, posted (1 year 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 5914 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 66):
If that's the case, why not let anyone with X-box or Playstation experience up front? Heck, lets just start training our pilots on Microsoft Flight Simulator?

Ah yes, the righteous pilot indignation that always comes up when this topic is discussed.   There's a great thread on PPRUNE about this where the resident pilots get angrier and angrier at the suggestion that landing a plane doesn't require as much expert skills as they like to think. It's a good read.

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-bal...nger-jet-if-you-only-hold-ppl.html

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 66):
I would much rather have someone with 50-100 hours of real flight time under their belt up front with me, then a senior 747 Captain at X virtual airline!

Yes, if you're present. Because then you already have all the systems knowledge, and someone who has flying experience and doesn't totally stress it would be the greatest help. However, if both pilots are incapacitated, I would rather have a flight simmer up front than a PPL guy. Because neither can properly fly the plane, the question becomes who's the better button-pusher.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 66):
And why do you, or everyone else assume that all they would do if an autoland? If the weather conditions are favorable, why would the one qualified pilot, who is qualified at landing the plane, now just land the plane?

As far as I know, performing an autoland is the suggested procedure at LH and AB, if there's only one pilot at the controls. I suppose it serves to reduce workload and frees the pilot up to monitor and decide whether to proceed with the landing, but I don't really know.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 70, posted (1 year 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 5646 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 16):
I would imagine a PA would sort of alarm the passengers.
Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 59):
Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 52):
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" (I mean, seriously, 51 replies and no reference to that, yet?)

I would guess that the captain made the announcement about the diversion when the cabin crew/medical doctor realised that the F/O would not be recovering anytime soon. I doubt he asked for a pilot, but as he explained the situation I would guess the off duty F/O realise he would be able to assist and came forward with his ID.
Quoting Rara (Reply 46):
Pilot incapacitation is more common than one may think

There was another case last week on a CX 77W HKG-YYZ. Following excerpt from the Transport Canada daily occurrence reports for November 16. I guess it wasn't a major problem as there would have been at least one relief pilot (possibly two?) on that very longhaul route. It was about 2 hours from YYZ at the time.

The Cathay Pacific Airways Limited Boeing 777-300ER aircraft (operating as flight CPA826) was on a scheduled IFR flight from Hong Kong (VHHH) to Toronto (CYYZ). NAV CANADA staff at Winnipeg ACC advised at 2212Z that the flight crew reported having an incapacitated pilot onboard; however, they did not declare a medical emergency due to the fact that they had two (2) other pilots on-duty. NAV CANADA Operations Centre (N.O.C.) staff advised and passed along the information to CACO staff. The aircraft advised Medlink and landed at Toronto without incident at 0005Z. Ops. impact -- none.

Also a VS incident from July:

VIR12E, Airbus A340-600 was enroute from Boston (KBOS) to London (EGLL), routing via 48N050W at 02:03Z, at 40,000 ft., estimating 50N040W at 02:53Z 51N030W 52N020W LIMRI. At 02:04Z, the flight reported that the first officer was incapacitated due to a medical situation. The flight was carrying another cabin crew member who was a commercial pilot. The captain decided to continue to destination.

The VS event reminds me of the AC 763 a couple of years ago en route YYZ-LHR where the first officer had some type of mental breakdown and had to be forcibly removed from the cockpit and restrained. The captain decided to divert to SNN rather than continue to LHR. A female flight attendant who also held a commercial license assisted the captain during the approach and landing at SNN. In the Irish official report the captain said her assistance was helpful.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (1 year 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 5534 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
If an FSX pilot with many, many hours under his virtual belt would offer his help, is it really going to be dismissed? Would the Airline and authorities really have a completely clueless FA (I’m not saying they all are, just this particular crew) step into the cockpit and get talked down, just because he/she works for the airline?
Quoting garpd (Reply 57):

On a personal note, I know I could walk into a flight deck and know within a few seconds what course, speed and altitude we were at. Within a minute or two, I’d have the radios figured out. With a qualified person on the other end of the radio, I could probably get the plane into autoland. The person on the other end of the radio would not have to waste time and fuel by explaining what to look for, where it is and how to use it. They could just tell me what I need to press or dial and where it is if I couldn’t find it.
Anything to do with the autopilot panel on the glareshield I could do without being told how to.

Well than, we don't need the hundreds of hours in flight school and in real simulators as well as lots of flights in a real airplanes; thousands of dollars and medical checks. We just have to provide a computer and a off the shelf flight sim program. Really!? The only problem with you method of training is that when you crash on the computer, nobody dies. Crash an airplane in real life and see why you need properly trained pilots when things go wrong.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 72, posted (1 year 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 5304 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 71):
Well than, we don't need the hundreds of hours in flight school and in real simulators as well as lots of flights in a real airplanes; thousands of dollars and medical checks. We just have to provide a computer and a off the shelf flight sim program. Really!?

You're mixing two things together that are actually very different.

Pilots are heavily trained (and rightly so) so that they react properly and promptly when things go wrong with the airplane or the situation. This is a hard task and it's proper that pilots have a thorough training process to prove they can do it.

But. That's not the skill you need for replacement of an incapacitated pilot. In that case, there is nothing wrong with the airplane or the airspace situation. Operating a fully functioning modern airliner is relatively simple if you are being instructed by someone who knows what they're doing. This is why conventional flying is generally so boring; pilot skills aren't taxed when the airplane is fine, the weather is good, and the traffic is light. In the hypothetical case of an incapacitated pilot on a commercial jet, we haven't (yet) compounded that with aircraft failures and you can bet you'll get priority ATC handling so traffic isn't a concern either. If the weather sucks the PF is going to have a rougher time, but the PF is going to be the actual type-certified pilot. The PNF, our notional flight-sim guy, at least knows where the buttons are and what they do, which is the skill you actually need in this scenario.

Nobody is saying that knowing how to fly in FSX qualifies you for a night visual crosswind landing in heavy rain. But if I've got a guy in the flight deck who already knows how to do that, it would sure be nice to have a guy who knows how to operate the TCP and FMC to be available.

Good CRM: make the best of what you've got. *Given* that you've got one guy who knows how to actually fly the plane, a guy who knows who to operate the systems is worth a lot more than a guy who knows how to fly some totally other different plane but doesn't have a clue how to load a flight plan into an FMC.

Tom.


User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1555 posts, RR: 5
Reply 73, posted (1 year 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 5236 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 72):
Good CRM: make the best of what you've got. *Given* that you've got one guy who knows how to actually fly the plane, a guy who knows who to operate the systems is worth a lot more than a guy who knows how to fly some totally other different plane but doesn't have a clue how to load a flight plan into an FMC.

I agree, but if the other guy was incapacitated, would you really let a 15 year old flight simmer load a flight plan in the FMC? What if he screws it up and you then have to un-do all of his work? Now you have just doubled your workload. Would you instruct him on how to do it? If so, wouldn't it just be easier for you to do it and have a your "flight simmer" just listen out for the radio calls? That is what I am getting at!

Sure, some of the add ons for flight sim work great, like the PMDG 747. But loading a flight plan for your virtual airline and loading a real route change in the flight deck are 2 different things!

Quoting Rara (Reply 69):
Ah yes, the righteous pilot indignation that always comes up when this topic is discussed. There's a great thread on PPRUNE about this where the resident pilots get angrier and angrier at the suggestion that landing a plane doesn't require as much expert skills as they like to think. It's a good read.

I'll have to check it out and I might agree with you when it comes to flying a heavy jet across the Atlantic. But that statement in general is ridiculous if you ask me. Try hand flying a heavy turboprop, with a max demonstrated crosswind, down an ILS to minimums in a blizzard with breaking action ranging from poor to nill. I bet any average Joe can do it, right? That is the flying I do on a regular basis around the Midwest and the Rocky Mountain range and I would love all these nay sayers to come and give it a try!

Quoting Rara (Reply 69):
Yes, if you're present. Because then you already have all the systems knowledge, and someone who has flying experience and doesn't totally stress it would be the greatest help. However, if both pilots are incapacitated, I would rather have a flight simmer up front than a PPL guy. Because neither can properly fly the plane, the question becomes who's the better button-pusher.

Well, that is what we are talking about, right? I can't remember the last time both crews were incapacitated and frankly I don't want to think of a situation like that. Odds are, it won't end well, unless their is another experienced pilot on board! I have many thousands of hours and lots of flight experience in various weather conditions, but I can tell you even I would have a tough time getting a 747 or something down by myself with no time or experience in the aircraft.



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 74, posted (1 year 10 months 1 hour ago) and read 5165 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 73):
I agree, but if the other guy was incapacitated, would you really let a 15 year old flight simmer load a flight plan in the FMC?

If he knew how to do it, yes.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 73):
What if he screws it up and you then have to un-do all of his work?

Then you're in the same position you'd have been if you didn't have him at all, which is to say, no worse than before.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 73):
Now you have just doubled your workload.

How is that double? You just dump the modifications.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 73):
Would you instruct him on how to do it? If so, wouldn't it just be easier for you to do it and have a your "flight simmer" just listen out for the radio calls?

If you have to instruct him, then there's no point in using him. CRM always applies...have him do what he knows how to do. If he doesn't know how to work an FMC, don't have him do it. If he does, do. If he's not good for anything, don't use him. My point is that you *don't* need him for his ability to fly the airplane...that's what the functioning pilot is for.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 73):
That is what I am getting at!

I'm saying use the resources you've got in the way that makes most sense in the situation. If he doesn't know how to do something, and it's easier for you to do it while still executing your primary PF duties, then do them yourself. If he knows how to do something that will take work off the PF so he can concentrate on flying, do that.

Tom.


User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 75, posted (1 year 10 months 1 hour ago) and read 5097 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 67):
an article on Airways a few years back about a professional pilot testing two students whose flying experience was limited to the 172, on a DC-8 simulator.

A few years back? This is an apples and oranges comparison (DC-8 as compared to the B777 or the A330) with regard to the modernization of commercial jetliners...correct???

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 72):
But. That's not the skill you need for replacement of an incapacitated pilot. In that case, there is nothing wrong with the airplane or the airspace situation. Operating a fully functioning modern airliner is relatively simple if you are being instructed by someone who knows what they're doing.

  



Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlines5daw From Slovenia, joined May 2011, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4880 times:

We need to take the Dunning-Kruger effect into the consideration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

It predicts exactly that simmers think they can do it, and (many) skilled professional pilots are not sure they could handle the big bird.

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.[1]
Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others"."


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2403 posts, RR: 13
Reply 77, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4786 times:

Quoting s5daw (Reply 76):

  

And check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence - the real problem is that nobody can put himself into the first stage...

In this discussion, something has gone under... FSX doesn't teach CRM. FSX doesn't teach what actually is behind all these knobs and dials and indications. And as others have said, FSX doesn't teach handling with fear.

For simplicity, I assume that an a.netter does not do flightsim flying, and that a flightsimmer isn't participating actively on this forum.

So, IMHO a more interesting discussion is how the average a.netter without flying experience (either real or sim) would fare in the cockpit. Hand-flying during cruise or approach is out of the mind in the cases of the a.netter and the flightsimmer anyway. And the really easy tasks like working with the FMC and reading the approach chart can be done much faster by the PF. Both passenger-turned-pilot heroes, flightsim and a.nutter, can watch out for traffic, disconnect A/P in case of a TCAS TA and RA, hand-fly to avert an imminent catastrophe (we have envelope protection today, compared to the DC-8 of the old days).

I just fear that the flightsimmer is over-trained to solve one set of problems (flying his favourite aircraft, landing this aircraft under really bad conditions), and he is under-trained to solve other problems like task-sharing. A flightsimmer thinks he's a pilot, while an a.nutter has the privilege of learning from actual pilots.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 78, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4631 times:
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Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 74):
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 73):
I agree, but if the other guy was incapacitated, would you really let a 15 year old flight simmer load a flight plan in the FMC?

Tdscannuck-If he knew how to do it, yes.

How exactly can this be proven?

It cannot so you would have to err on the side of caution and assume that any random virtual pilot is a nutjob who has dreamt of this moment for years. You do not let an unknown and unproven individual into the cockpit.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5641 posts, RR: 6
Reply 79, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
For example, the instruction: “Turn heading 215 degrees and descend to FL090, select 250 knots speed” I’d know precisely how to do that in anything from a 737 to an A320 to a 787.

Flying is easy. Landing is not as easy. I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the most qualified guy on the airplane, and I'm very familiar with the systems on Airbus aircraft (and I could figure out a 737 in about 10 minutes). Could I land it if I had to? Probably. Would it be pretty? Probably not. Would it be survivable? Probably.

It's nice that simmers can program an FMS and do a long haul in real-time. It means squat when landing an airplane. The biggest difference is the feel. No yoke or joystick I've ever used has even come close to the feel of the real thing, and that's sitting at the gate. Unless they have a level D sim in their den, they will get very confused by the motions of the airplane relative to the visual picture.

Could they land it? In the best of conditions... maybe. Would it be pretty? Certainly not. Would it be survivable? Hard to say.

Mythbusters should do a follow-up episode of that one.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlines5daw From Slovenia, joined May 2011, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4483 times:

I think this video shows some insight into a simmer's mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqs2SxFuCNQ

Note the little shortcuts, personal preferences and so on that he makes.
"I don't use ground crew for APU start, because I tend to forget to disconnect before pushback".
"What I find the best system for operating this aircraft..."

Also not how careless or even sloppy he is about the whole thing. It simply isn't real, there are no consequences of doing things the SOP way or his way.
A pilot can give us a better insight how this kind of attitude affect flying in a real cockpit.

The point is, simulator is a game. Yes, it might teach you about some concepts (instruments, understanding navigation, ATC), but it will give you absolutely no experience in how to use them in real life. What happens when you find yourself overloaded on approach, whit all the bad habits you've picked up?

That said, a person like that could still be useful let's say just to monitor speed and altitude, or just pay attention to AP and make sure it has not disconnected.. E.g. "keep an eye on this and tell me as soon as there's any change while I go through all the checklists. And don't touch ANYTHING"


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1359 posts, RR: 3
Reply 81, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4455 times:

Quoting DALCE (Reply 48):
Would a so called 'virtual pilot' who has made his flighthours behind the desktop at home with FSX for example be of any use in such a case. I can imagine that even this 'kind of pilots' would be able to assist to a certain (low) degree.

A "virtual" pilot would about as much use as an ashtray on a motorcycle.

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
If an FSX pilot with many, many hours under his virtual belt would offer his help, is it really going to be dismissed? Would the Airline and authorities really have a completely clueless FA (I’m not saying they all are, just this particular crew) step into the cockpit and get talked down, just because he/she works for the airline?

See above. There are two chances: None and zero.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineAmericanAirFan From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 408 posts, RR: 3
Reply 82, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4307 times:

I was a bit of a flight simulator junky before starting my flying career. I have a few thousand hours in flight sim. However, you cannot count that towards real world flying experience one bit. Sure I understood systems, and procedures a lot quicker than someone with no FS experience, but the flying part is so environmentally immersing that things quickly become much more of a challenge as others have said. A good example from my own personal experience would be flying a CRJ-700 sim. I am an MEI, and I have messed around with the CRJ systems in MSFS before. However, getting into the CRJ sim and actually flying the plane, and playing with all of the systems while working the pattern at JFK quickly becomes very difficult. You have an idea of where the different switches and knobs are in the cockpit, but you don't have the muscle memory of where exactly they are when you sit in the cockpit, and you have no practical training or experience of operating the type. Furthermore flying with the "feel" of the actual flight controls as opposed to a joystick/throttle combo on your home computer is a whole other world. Definitely a private pilot would be more valuable than a flight sim junky in the cockpit. Maybe not to FLY the plane, but they would have good real world experience and understanding of radio communications, and other basic airmanship items that could help a single type rated airline pilot to be able to handle the flying tasks and aircraft specific tasks that the passenger has no experience with.

This is a very interesting story. I'm glad they landed safely. I would imagine even if there was no other qualified person on board, it would not be out of the single pilot's reach by any means to safely get the plane on the ground by himself. It might be slightly more stressful, but these guys are trained rigorously to be allowed to fly these birds.

[Edited 2012-11-22 05:48:00]


"American 1881 Cleared For Takeoff One Seven Left"
User currently offlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4093 times:

Interesting topic. If you assume that the plane was configured correctly in cruise when this event accrued, how many different switches, buttons, etc. would at a minimum have to be operated to get the plane on the ground. For instance, why would you be using the FMS if someone on the ground was doing the navigation for you?

I only have about 1500 hours in medium twins, but I think I could manage to get a plane .... with a yoke..to the outer marker at which time the autopilot could follow the ILS in.....at least to 200 feet...in good weather and no aircraft failures of course.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 84, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3802 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 81):

Quoting DALCE (Reply 48):
Would a so called 'virtual pilot' who has made his flighthours behind the desktop at home with FSX for example be of any use in such a case. I can imagine that even this 'kind of pilots' would be able to assist to a certain (low) degree.

A "virtual" pilot would about as much use as an ashtray on a motorcycle.

Quoting garpd (Reply 57):
If an FSX pilot with many, many hours under his virtual belt would offer his help, is it really going to be dismissed? Would the Airline and authorities really have a completely clueless FA (I’m not saying they all are, just this particular crew) step into the cockpit and get talked down, just because he/she works for the airline?

See above. There are two chances: None and zero.

This is what I see as well for this situation. Frankly, I would not want any of you pilot wannabes flying in the place of a real pilot. Please don't be so delusional as to think that you could actually fly and land any aircraft that you may think that you are competent on. Your're not. It is like softball guy who plays in the beer league at his local rec centre thinking and playing like there is a scout for a professional baseball team.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 85, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3637 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 78):

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 74):
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 73):
I agree, but if the other guy was incapacitated, would you really let a 15 year old flight simmer load a flight plan in the FMC?

Tdscannuck-If he knew how to do it, yes.

How exactly can this be proven?

How do you prove that your F/O won't pull back and stall the airplane at altitude? You can't do that either...and then you get AF447. The point is you can never *prove* anything related to personal skill.

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 78):
It cannot so you would have to err on the side of caution and assume that any random virtual pilot is a nutjob who has dreamt of this moment for years. You do not let an unknown and unproven individual into the cockpit.

The PF needs to weigh the situation...is it worth getting help or is it safer to continue alone? I can certainly conceive of situations that would go either way. A blanket statement such as yours is just bad CRM...you could be ignoring a useful resource.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 83):
If you assume that the plane was configured correctly in cruise when this event accrued, how many different switches, buttons, etc. would at a minimum have to be operated to get the plane on the ground.

Not that many...if you assume you're in full autoflight, all you should really need to play with is the MCP (three knobs + probably two buttons), the flap handle, the gear handle, the spoiler handle, and the autobrake knob. Just follow ATC vectors with the MCP, do a coupled approach, and let the automation do it's thing. This all assumes that all airplane systems are fully functional, etc.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 83):
For instance, why would you be using the FMS if someone on the ground was doing the navigation for you?

It's a trade. You could just fly via the MCP and assume ATC will do all navigation for you.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 84):
Frankly, I would not want any of you pilot wannabes flying in the place of a real pilot.

You'd rather single-fly a two man aircraft than have competent help even if they're not rated on your aircraft? How is *that* good CRM?

Quoting brilondon (Reply 84):
Please don't be so delusional as to think that you could actually fly and land any aircraft that you may think that you are competent on. Your're not.

The situation at hand here is you have a fully competent PF; nobody is proposing having the newbie fly or land.

Tom.


User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1555 posts, RR: 5
Reply 86, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3534 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 85):
You'd rather single-fly a two man aircraft than have competent help even if they're not rated on your aircraft? How is *that* good CRM?

But their is a difference from having a competent pilot that is not type rated in your aircraft, then having a flight simmer with 0 hours of real world experience. That is is the difference I am getting at and frankly I just don't think a non pilot, flight simmer could cut it up in the flight deck during a stressful time as such.

I still maintain, without compromising my CRM skills that I would have a tough time letting any old person up front with me, just because they say they have extensive flight simulator (and I am talking Microsoft, not professional sims) experience.



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 87, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 86):
But their is a difference from having a competent pilot that is not type rated in your aircraft, then having a flight simmer with 0 hours of real world experience.

I agree there's a difference. But, given that we know we've got one person up front who does have real world experience and can actually fly the airplane, would you really rather go it alone than have someone with you who at least understands what you mean when you give a command about a system or who at least knows how to work a radio?

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 86):
That is is the difference I am getting at and frankly I just don't think a non pilot, flight simmer could cut it up in the flight deck during a stressful time as such.

What are you asking them to do? It's not stressful in the normal pilotage sense (system or situational failure), you've just got a workload imbalance.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 86):
I still maintain, without compromising my CRM skills that I would have a tough time letting any old person up front with me, just because they say they have extensive flight simulator (and I am talking Microsoft, not professional sims) experience.

I agree you'd have to assess relevance. But if I had a guy who credibly could work the radios, monitor systems, look up charts, etc. I'd rather have that help than not even if I'd have to do extra cross-check...that would still be preferable, to me, to doing it all myself.

Tom.


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1359 posts, RR: 3
Reply 88, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3442 times:

Put it this way.

A very good friend of mine is a training captain (TRI/TRE) on the B757 with 15K+ hours under his belt, and is often paired with 200 hour wiz kids fresh out of flight school. They need constant, and by that I mean 100% all-the-time, monitoring and coaching when they're PF. They do a bit better when assuming the PNF role, but still there's quite often a need to nudge them in the right direction, particularly when it gets busy. They do put new meaning to the abbreviation "FO", in their case it really means "Flap Operator". My mate has often been tempted to run a departure briefing along the lines of "I fly, you watch. If I want your opinion, I"ll give it to you" but is of course way too professional to utter that remark anywhere outside the pub on a Friday evening in the company of like minded individuals.

Keep in mind those FO's are fATPL holders, and they are type rated on the kite.

I too was one of those wiz kids quite a few years ago, and I know for certain I'd been in a very uncomfortable situation if the skipper should unexpectedly kick the bucket. I would have gotten the kite down on terra firma in one piece, sure, but the stress level would have been off the scales. We did train for it, in the sim, but there's a world of difference between sitting still in the box and being 35K feet off the ground doing 80% the speed of sound.

If that doesn't tell you that a flight simmer have zero place on the flight-deck I don't know what does. Frankly I'd rather have a stewardess helping me out of.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
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