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Ryanair To Downsize BUD Operations  
User currently offlineAlsatian From France, joined May 2005, 439 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7974 times:

10 routes to be dropped from january 10th and frequency cuts on 9 of 20 other routes :

Ryanair announces 40 percent cuts at Budapest


Ok I am French but I am not on strike
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7809 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7646 times:

How long since the big splash following the failure of Malev?.

User currently offlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 613 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7566 times:

The accusation that the airport "refused to provide efficient facilities" somehow amuses me. I was there last year and it seemed efficient enough - actually they've closed down one terminal so just the new one is open and even then it was very quiet. There is a bus link to the metro station, a nice design, plenty of comfortable seats, very modern and spacious - I remember thinking at the time that this would be a great place to connect through.

User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7509 times:

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 2):
The accusation that the airport "refused to provide efficient facilities" somehow amuses me. I was there last year and it seemed efficient enough - actually they've closed down one terminal so just the new one is open and even then it was very quiet. There is a bus link to the metro station, a nice design, plenty of comfortable seats, very modern and spacious - I remember thinking at the time that this would be a great place to connect through.

BUD did everything possible to accommodate FR . They were so wary of the future after MA ceased it's ops that FR basically got whatever they asked for. BUD even built a tent on the tarmac for the winter so FR and some other LCCs could avoid using the terminal for boarding. There is a great article on airportal.hu about the simplified boarding process for FR, W6 and other LCCs at BUD:

http://www.airportal.hu/ap/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10509 (in Hungarian, with pictures)

The only good aspect of FR's downsizing at BUD is the increased possibility of a new Hungarian airline being formed. FR has abandoned BUD in the past so I'm not surprised at this news, I do feel bad for the employees who will lose their jobs because of these cuts. (especially the former MA employees who will face uncertainty for the 2nd time this year).

KrisYYZ


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7445 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 3):
The only good aspect of FR's downsizing at BUD is the increased possibility of a new Hungarian airline being formed. FR has abandoned BUD in the past so I'm not surprised at this news, I do feel bad for the employees who will lose their jobs because of these cuts. (especially the former MA employees who will face uncertainty for the 2nd time this year).

It's just O'Leary's usual strategy to get the airport to reduce their charges. The airport operator has apparently recently announced increases and ATC charges in Hungary are also increasing next year. He has said that FR could change their position on the cutbacks if the charges issues are resolved.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...s-from-Budapest-amid-fees-row.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...nair-hungary-idUSLNE8AL01O20121122


User currently offlineqf340500 From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7359 times:

i agree with all posts, that plain tactics from MOL to get the airport to lower the charges for him and his 737's. Well, let him move away, its a good move for Wizzair i think, they can expand and they seem to be not so mad like MOL. And yes, what facilities is he talking about??? I bet BUD offers much more facilities than some of the other "aiports on the grass" FR flies to

good for Wizzair, good move from BUD. FR is not the world


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2003 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7198 times:

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 5):
i agree with all posts, that plain tactics from MOL to get the airport to lower the charges for him and his 737's.

Well if this is how he wants to proceed he has every right. Unlike some others, I don't see it as morally wrong if MOL wants to take his business elsewhere if he feels BUD isn't catering to him as he'd like; however, from a long-term business prospective I would question these tactics as a shareholder if they, in the long run, allow other carriers to back fill and create more competition for FR.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2773 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7063 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
The airport operator has apparently recently announced increases and ATC charges in Hungary are also increasing next year.

I am surprised it took this long for ATC to increase charges as they have been hit hard after Malev went belly up.



Does anyone know if Wizz Air, or any other airline for that matter, will be increasing frequencies to Budapest after this decision?


User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6825 times:
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Quoting JU068 (Reply 7):
Does anyone know if Wizz Air, or any other airline for that matter, will be increasing frequencies to Budapest after this decision?

SAS will open BUD from Oslo next summer, I believe. Norwegian flies packed aircraft to BUD all year, so there is definetly potential there for SAS.



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19258 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6811 times:

While many here will disagree, which is fine, FR effectively must reduce the extent of a base or pull out or threat to pull out when airports increase (or threat to increase) airport charges. This is because it cannot allow costs to increase like that as it may well result in unprofitable routes – especially on some of those which are summer-seasonal – when, for all we know, they may already be priced near marginal costs, but more importantly it would set a potentially dangerous precedent to other airports: if FR willingly accepts it, then other facilities may also come to think 'hang on, we can do the same!' It could then start to unravel. Hence, FR must always try to have the upper hand, which is illustrated by it negotiating long-term (5+ years) deals with ground handlers and airports. This firmly sits with its low-price-low-added-value strategic positioning that relies on consistently maintaining very low costs.

[Edited 2012-11-23 01:41:35]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3510 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6800 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 8):
SAS will open BUD from Oslo next summer

And CPH-BUD. 6x weekly from CPH and 3x weekly from OSL. Both starting March 31


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2773 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6527 times:
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Quoting Someone83 (Reply 10):

Really great to see SAS become more aggressive. Will these flights be operated by B737s or could we see the CRJ from CPH?


User currently offlineAdamS From Hungary, joined Jan 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6394 times:

O'Leary to BUDapest. Source: http://www.airportal.hu

Source: http://www.airportal.hu


User currently offlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 613 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

Well, if there is a certain level of demand at Budapest then other airlines will come in to fill the gaps and that's a good thing. Probably quite a few of them would have been nervous about flying to a Ryanair hub. I'd laugh if Easyjet announced a new base! If Ryanair ever comes back in the future, it might find that it doesn't have the airport to itself anymore.

User currently offlineVasu From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 3976 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Quoting AdamS (Reply 12):

Hahaha... very good!


User currently offlineAquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4031 times:

If they would be in better shape, this was a succulent opportunity for Austrian to get a little more traffic to VIE.


chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3785 times:

Sad news but unavoidable. Fares have been extremely low since FR started, going against Wizzair on many routes. I have said this often this year, one of them had to slash routes sooner or later.

I have flown a record number of FR flights this year because flights are often really not more then 5 euro. A small increase in ATC and airport charges can be the final nail on the coffin, but is not the main reason. Just a nice opportunity to blame someone else. Hungarians in general just don't seem to fly a lot, either business or leisure.


User currently offlinenightfox365 From Ireland, joined Jul 2011, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3685 times:

This is normal Ryanair behaviour, they come in guns blazing, and when things are going well, they reduce their services, now when another airlines comes in to fill those spots, they will come back. They practically make it impossible for an airport to manage without just them, they did it with Shannon. They bully other carriers off the routes.


Flown on: bae146, bn2 islander, 741, A320, A321, A333, A332, MD80, 738
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7302 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 16):

Fares have been extremely low since FR started.

And you hit the nail on the head. FR had stated in recent financial reports that BUD was under performing.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 16):
A small increase in ATC and airport charges can be the final nail on the coffin.

The main reason is that yields just aren't there for many secondary destinations they operated to.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 9):
FR must always try to have the upper hand

Like in any personal relationship, always insisting on having the upper hand means that there is no long term relationship between airline and suppliers. Constant blaming of a supplier for bad performance of routes doesn't help either.

Quoting nightfox365 (Reply 17):
They practically make it impossible for an airport to manage without just them, they did it with Shannon.

To be fair to Ryanair at Shannon, they tried so many different routes and frequencies. The market just isn't there for them. However, they failed to honour their deal with the airport, so the deal was pulled.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 9):
it would set a potentially dangerous precedent to other airports: if FR willingly accepts it, then other facilities may also come to think 'hang on, we can do the same!'

I presume you agree that this works both ways. Just like Ryanair having to be strict on suppliers, airports also have to ensure that FR live up to their promises, otherwise the Ryanair will just walk all over them - as they do over and over again.

In the example above FR didn't live up to their side of their five year deal with Shannon, so SNN sued them. FR are judge and juror through the press however.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinenightfox365 From Ireland, joined Jul 2011, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

If you look at what Ryanair did with Shannon, they made a deal with the airport, then not long after reduced their services, another airline tried to come in, and instantly Ryanair increased its services, and bullied the other airline out. They kept doing this, and it has made it harder for SNN to attract new airlines, for fear of Ryanair bullying them off.


Flown on: bae146, bn2 islander, 741, A320, A321, A333, A332, MD80, 738
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19258 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3400 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 18):
And you hit the nail on the head

I did say:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 9):
already be priced near marginal costs
Quoting bestwestern (Reply 18):
The main reason is that yields just aren't there for many secondary destinations they operated to.

Of course, increased load factors offsets lower yields, i.e. revenue per passenger per mile. But evidently even that wasn't sufficient.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 18):
presume you agree that this works both ways. Just like Ryanair having to be strict on suppliers, airports also have to ensure that FR live up to their promises

Absolutely. If they breach an aspect of their contract, then they could be sued. Equally, if FR delivers what it promises it normally gets a 'success fee' from the airport, per a recent chat with Bernard Berger. Interestingly, he told me the 'deal' he was most pleased with was with CCF, not so much because of the money but because of changing their mindsets to see what could be done - this was, of course, around 15 years ago.

[Edited 2012-11-25 01:09:08]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinedallasnewark From Estonia, joined Nov 2005, 495 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3028 times:

Does anyone has any info or speculation as to when the new Hungarian National Airline be possibly forming?

I may be in the minority here, but RYANAIR didn't even come close filling the void left by MALEV. I took over 30 MALEV flights in a couple of years prior to their demise and they were a great airline that served a specific purpose.

I wish the new carrier will form soon.



B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19258 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2997 times:

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 21):
they were a great airline

But financially dismal.

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 21):
RYANAIR didn't even come close filling the void left by MALEV

Didn't say it would and didn't pretend to. It's not a hub-and-spoke airline. Like Wizz Air, it would have chosen routes that it deemed worth operating, and primarily launching routes to already-served airports by them.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinesimpsondude From UK - Scotland, joined May 2010, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2894 times:

How much is this actually do to with increased charges? Is it not a usual ryanair trait to use this as an excuse to drop under-performing routes?

User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 21):
Does anyone has any info or speculation as to when the new Hungarian National Airline be possibly forming?

Haha, never:

1. Malev never made a profit
2. 90% of pax were transfer pax
3. If FR cant make money on a route no one can.
4. Ryanair, Wizzair, Easyjet ( already 6 routes from BUD ) Gemanwings, Transavia and Norwegian will blow a new carrier out of the water.


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2773 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2748 times:
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Quoting kl911 (Reply 24):
Haha

What is so funny?

Quoting kl911 (Reply 24):
90% of pax were transfer pax

Roughly 50% were.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 24):
If FR cant make money on a route no one can.

You seem quite confident, do you have any proof other airlines competing with Ryanair are actually making a loss?


User currently offlinedallasnewark From Estonia, joined Nov 2005, 495 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2641 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 24):


Haha, never:

1. Malev never made a profit
2. 90% of pax were transfer pax
3. If FR cant make money on a route no one can.
4. Ryanair, Wizzair, Easyjet ( already 6 routes from BUD ) Gemanwings, Transavia and Norwegian will blow a new carrier out of the water.

Let me address all your points

1. That is a baseless statement out of left field, kind of like saying AA has never made a profit

2. Like JU068 correctly pointed out that it was close to 50%. 90% seems ridiculous, that's in the ballpark of DXB and DOH.

3. Another false statement concerning FR. They are not the sign of profitability or how everything should be gauged on. They are a niche airline geared towards backpackers and such. There's a segment of the population that would not even go anywhere near FR jets and avoid it at all costs. And please try to be a bit less biased towards FR so that your statements would seem more or less objective

4. Ryanair, Wizzair, Easyjet - greyhound of the skies, the lack service and other amenities. Germanwings, Transavia, Norwegian, very limited network out of Budapest. If there's eve a national Hungarian carrier that is cost effective and with the right fleet, it will blow out of the water the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet.



B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2604 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 16):
I have flown a record number of FR flights this year because flights are often really not more then 5 euro.
Quoting kl911 (Reply 24):
4. Ryanair, Wizzair, Easyjet ( already 6 routes from BUD ) Gemanwings, Transavia and Norwegian will blow a new carrier out of the water.

None of these is a carrier that I would fly when flying for business. I really hope that BUD would be more serviced by a full service airlines, not these LCCs that business people requiring flexibility would fly. In the past I've paid more than a few times almost 1000 euros when flying HEL-BUD-ATH and back with Malév. But for business I wouldn't fly FR even for 5 euros. It's just not worth the hassle, when your time is money. Actually the corporate travel policies specifically advises against flying FR.

I know in the end it boils down to supply and demand, possibly BUD will not see any new full-service carriers before the economy takes a turn towards the better. If that is how it is, nothing we can do. But we should understand that FR will never be able to fill the void that was left by a full service carrier like MA going bankrupt because FR does not offer the same service that full service carriers do. At least FR found out that their businessmodel doesn't work in BUD either.


User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5939 posts, RR: 5
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2597 times:

Now you're the one being "ridiculous"

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 26):
that's in the ballpark of DXB and DOH.

EK at DXB is closer to 60%

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 26):
They are a niche airline geared towards backpackers and such

I don't even know what to say to this

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 26):
There's a segment of the population that would not even go anywhere near FR jets and avoid it at all costs.

Yes, but it's a smaller segment than those who will

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 26):
it will blow out of the water the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet.

How much premium demand is there out of BUD? If you can't answer that then you've just killed the case for MA2



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 21):
Does anyone has any info or speculation as to when the new Hungarian National Airline be possibly forming?

I may be in the minority here, but RYANAIR didn't even come close filling the void left by MALEV. I took over 30 MALEV flights in a couple of years prior to their demise and they were a great airline that served a specific purpose.

I wish the new carrier will form soon.

So do I, but it probably won't happen for a long time, if ever. There are a few organizations in Hungary that are working towards attracting private investors and launching a new Hungarian Airline. But until the Hungarian economy recovers and people have more disposable income, there isn't really any need for Hungary to have a national airline of its own. Besides, Wizz is a Hungarian airline and there is no need for a new full service airline to start up operations. LH, KL and BA have that market covered.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 24):
2. 90% of pax were transfer pax

I know that was the case for MA's long-haul ops (JFK, YYZ), not sure about short/medium haul ops.

There is no doubt MA is missed, especially in Hungary and other eastern-European countries, where MA provided a great option for on-wards travel to the west. But FR and other LCC are offering the only viable business approach for travel within Europe from Hungary at the present time. Even the failed rescue plans for MA included the possibility of making MA an LCC, premium demand at BUD is pretty low.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2773 posts, RR: 6
Reply 30, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2475 times:
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Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 28):
I don't even know what to say to this

Well, he might not be that wrong. For example when it comes to Cyprus that is the case. Ryanair is used by young people or people who are going for holidays- in other words zero business traffic.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19258 posts, RR: 52
Reply 31, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2434 times:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 30):
when it comes to Cyprus that is the case. Ryanair is used by young people or people who are going for holidays- in other words zero business traffic.

While FR obviously mainly carries leisure passengers, i.e. those travelling for holiday reasons or to visit friends and relatives (VFR), with some high-end leisure travellers such as between London and regional France, it also carries a lot of businesspeople between the UK and Ireland (specifically Dublin). However, it is predominantly a leisure airline.

But who cares? What matters is that its revenues are greater than its costs and that it tries to maximise the difference between the two, and that it highly focuses on pursuing a broad segment – in its instance, leisure – and actively provides what they desir (i.e., little beyond the core elements) and, fundamentally, what they're willing to pay for (i.e., not much beyond the core elements). Their targeted segment ordinarily has a willingness to forego attributes to avail of a lower average price due to their typically high price-elasticity, although the other core air transport components - good on-time performance and few lost bags - are essential.

[Edited 2012-11-27 00:46:00]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineJU068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2773 posts, RR: 6
Reply 32, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2121 times:
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Well here is an interesting article on why Ryanair is suspending some routes:

http://www.anna.aero/2012/11/28/ryan...90-anna_nl_281112&utm_medium=email


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