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Estonian CEO Slams CRJ900's  
User currently offlineCRJ900X From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 197 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14173 times:

An interesting article regarding the dissapointment of Estonian in the CRJ900 aircraft.

Link: http://www.canadianbusiness.com/arti...s-claim-that-crj900s-uncompetitive

I am a little confused by the article, is Estonian planning on selling the recently ordered Embraer 190's or are they still trying to off load the CRJ900's?

It is odd that the Estonian CEO would be publicly complaining about the CRJ900's if he is trying to get someone to take over the leases.

Estonian must be wasting a ton of money operating Embraer 170's alongside CRJ900's with the associated training, parts, etc.

Wasn't Bombardier taking Estonian Air to court over items related to the CRJ900 sale. Any insights?

Hopefully this thread will not turn into a CRJ bashing exercise, as in certian missions, it seems to be a great machine.

Cheers,
CRJ900X

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3754 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14095 times:

Maybe a DL Connection airline can grab these birds cheap. How many CR9s does Estonian have?


"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13853 times:

As far as I understand the article, Estonian prefers to dump the CRJ900s but instead has to dispose of the Embraer 170s as these are - allegedly - easier to off-load on the market. I am not sure if I am buying that - the Embraer 170s has not see great sales recently. Closer to the truth is probably that given its small overall size the fleet ideally would consist of a E170/E190 mix.

User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6453 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13329 times:

Those three CRJ900's were part of the deal when SAS skipped their Q400's following their landing gear incidents. They were more or less stuffed down the throat of Estonian Air. SAS has since sold most of their stake in Estonian Air to the Estonian state and now holds only 10%.

Quote from the link: "He [Estonian Air's CEO] said the 88-seat CRJs are not competitive in a market best suited for planes with less than 80 seats."

I agree with that. SAS has the same 88 seat cabin configuration. It is the most horribly cramped cabin I have ever experienced. There is no LCC - not even Ryanair - which packs their customers like that.

They should just remove some seat rows and make it a roughly 75 seat plane. Then half of the potential customers, who now take the fast ferry from Tallinn to Helsinki to make their journey on Finnair Airbiis, might use their local airline instead.

The very narrow seats are not fully compensated by more legroom, but for most people it would make it a lot more bearable.

For SAS exactly the same is true. But they at least chose the plane and its cabin configuration themselves.

Estonian Air flies to little more than a handful of destinations. Therefore a great part of their local customers will always have to make minimum two legs to reach their destination. Going to just Helsinki first, they have many more direct destinations. Therefore Estonian Air has to be comfort wise at least competitive with Finnair (or a lot cheaper than Finnair). That is simply not the case with an 88 seat CRJ900, even if the plane as such (except for the cabin configuration) is a fine plane.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1264 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days ago) and read 10628 times:

The bottom line of Estonian Air isn't good, so the best is, they dump all their aircraft and blame the CEO instead of blaming aircraft which other airlines can use very successful.

The problem with Estonian air seem that they can not attract passengers to fly with them. They getting attacked by Ryanair, FlyBE, Finnair etc. in their market. May be the reason for the poor performance is that Estonian doesn't offer any connecting flights and futher more the prices they offer are always the highest.



Fly easyJet
User currently onlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days ago) and read 10449 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 1):
How many CR9s does Estonian have?

They operate 3 CR9s.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinejfidler From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days ago) and read 10338 times:

I think this has very little to do with the plane, and it's more of an excuse.

When they bought the plane, the CEO at the time (so that's 2 CEOs ago) was praising its features:

Quote:

“This is a fundamental step for our company. We are upgrading our fleet with smaller aircraft that better meet Estonia’s market demands and enable us to improve our flight schedule as well as open new destinations,” said Andrus Aljas, Estonian Air President and CEO.

(Source)

and here is what another previous CEO (the one who left recently) said just a year ago:

Quote:

“Bombardier aircraft have been showing very good operational results so far and have proven to be most ecological and economical aircraft of its size. They are extremely quiet and comfortable, and the most economical and ecological jets of that size. In fact, they have been proven to consume 4% less fuel than originally budgeted,” said Tero Taskila, the CEO of Estonian Air.

(Source)

So, did the plane's operational features and performance change so drastically in the last 1 year? I doubt it.

I've flown all models of OV's planes, and I found the CRJ900 was perfectly fine, and a welcome upgrade from all their other fleet, which is older.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17511 posts, RR: 45
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7401 times:

Is he really slamming the aircraft or just commenting that the CR9 isn't right for OV's network, which is totally believable? The local market is small and the connecting market can only compete on price, since OV is surrounded by much larger and more comprehensive hubs--the CR9 unit costs can't compete with a similar mainline connection at a neighboring hub.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

The only issue OV has had with the CRJ was that they weren't able to finance them. And when others threw some E-170 at them, financing was no longer an issue

User currently offlinesmbukas From Lithuania, joined Feb 2009, 204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

With reduced schedule for Summer 2013, we see that all Estonian Air flights are scheduled to operate with CRJ900.

Does it mean, that for now they are going to return Embaer's to lessors (I think it is Finnair main lessor) and operate CRJs for now? I think, that they are going on CRJ900 for now, but they are not sure, what to do in 2014-2015 when purchased E170/175 are going to arrive.


User currently offlinetraveler_7 From Estonia, joined May 2000, 540 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 3516 times:

Quoting smbukas (Reply 9):
With reduced schedule for Summer 2013, we see that all Estonian Air flights are scheduled to operate with CRJ900.

Does it mean, that for now they are going to return Embaer's to lessors (I think it is Finnair main lessor) and operate CRJs for now? I think, that they are going on CRJ900 for now, but they are not sure, what to do in 2014-2015 when purchased E170/175 are going to arrive.

In the local press it was reported many times that OV is going to continue with just 5 aircraft. In the beginning of December they should present details of their strategy, so most probably fleet question is clarified. I wonder my self about fleet details especially Embraer 195 which was supposed to join the fleet in early 2013.


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 3483 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 3):
Then half of the potential customers, who now take the fast ferry from Tallinn to Helsinki to make their journey on Finnair Airbiis, might use their local airline instead.

Who cares about legroom in less than 1 hour flight? I would gladly take such a flight even with no seat at all.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinesmbukas From Lithuania, joined Feb 2009, 204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 3443 times:

Quoting traveler_7 (Reply 10):
In the local press it was reported many times that OV is going to continue with just 5 aircraft.

Yes, that seams correct. I just took already published schedule for 2013 and I see, that schedule is tailored for 5 CRJ900 aircrafts (actually, all flights are now scheduled to operate with CRJ900).

AMS - 14x weekly;
BRU - 11x weekly;
CPH - 19x weekly;
KBP - 7x weekly;
SVO - 7x weekly;
NCE - 1x weekly;
OSL - 13x weekly;
LED - 7x weekly;
ARN - 25x weekly;
VNO - 16x weekly;
TRD - 2x weekly.

For holiday season (July-August) capacity from VNO and ARN routes go to SVO and LED to operate them with up to 3x daily, but in September SVO and LED is 1x daily again.


So I am not sure, but this might be the strategy. Anyway, they should announce their fleet strategy.


User currently offlinetraveler_7 From Estonia, joined May 2000, 540 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11):
Who cares about legroom in less than 1 hour flight? I would gladly take such a flight even with no seat at all.

I took once OV flight to AMS on CRJ 900 and legroom was more or less, cabin did not offer enough space for cabin luggage.


User currently offlinedrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3113 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 3):
They should just remove some seat rows and make it a roughly 75 seat plane. Then half of the potential customers, who now take the fast ferry from Tallinn to Helsinki to make their journey on Finnair Airbiis, might use their local airline instead.

This is essentially what Jazz did. The CRJ-705s are just CRJ-900s certified for 75 passengers. Lots of legroom and a pretty comfortable aircraft compared to the original CRJs.


User currently offlineB735 From Denmark, joined Oct 2010, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

I am flying 4-6 sectors on Estonian Air every month and consequently had many flights on all aircraft in their fleet, from the good old B735/B733 to the E170, CRJ900 and the SAAB 340.

For a number of reasons I am in favor of the E170 vs the CRJ, all points from the passenger point of view:

- Main reason: it connects to the terminal finger for boarding.
- bigger overhead space
- slightly wider seats (at least it feels that way)
- bigger windows

In general just more comfortable that the CRJ900. Now, the CRJ900 is a gorgeous and comfortable aircraft also and very quiet if you're seated in front, just a slight advantage to the E-jet.

Upcoming summer schedule seem to be a mess right now. Only last week the timetable showed that the summer '13 flights would be operated by an all E170 fleet. Not sure even OV know what is head and what is tail these days...

Well. I am only hoping that if the go with the CRJ fleet, they will take back the original livery and not the revised livery which was introduced on the E170...

Anyhow, it is a shame... I really hope they get their act together and make it through...


User currently offlinetraveler_7 From Estonia, joined May 2000, 540 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

Quoting B735 (Reply 15):
Upcoming summer schedule seem to be a mess right now. Only last week the timetable showed that the summer '13 flights would be operated by an all E170 fleet. Not sure even OV know what is head and what is tail these days...

looks like it is wise to wait until OV will announce their plans in the beginning of December.

Quoting B735 (Reply 15):
For a number of reasons I am in favor of the E170 vs the CRJ, all points from the passenger point of view:
Quoting B735 (Reply 15):
Well. I am only hoping that if the go with the CRJ fleet, they will take back the original livery and not the revised livery which was introduced on the E170...

Personally I hope that they will go with Embraers, first using E170 leased from AY and later replace them with a mixture of 175 and 195.


User currently offlineWinstonLegthigh From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2711 times:

Quoting jfidler (Reply 6):
I think this has very little to do with the plane, and it's more of an excuse.

When they bought the plane, the CEO at the time (so that's 2 CEOs ago) was praising its features:

Quote:

“This is a fundamental step for our company. We are upgrading our fleet with smaller aircraft that better meet Estonia’s market demands and enable us to improve our flight schedule as well as open new destinations,” said Andrus Aljas, Estonian Air President and CEO.

(Source)

and here is what another previous CEO (the one who left recently) said just a year ago:

Quote:

“Bombardier aircraft have been showing very good operational results so far and have proven to be most ecological and economical aircraft of its size. They are extremely quiet and comfortable, and the most economical and ecological jets of that size. In fact, they have been proven to consume 4% less fuel than originally budgeted,” said Tero Taskila, the CEO of Estonian Air.

(Source)

So, did the plane's operational features and performance change so drastically in the last 1 year? I doubt it.

I've flown all models of OV's planes, and I found the CRJ900 was perfectly fine, and a welcome upgrade from all their other fleet, which is older.

Almost universally, that which a CEO says is spun to be self-serving. Not disagreeing with you, as I'm unfamiliar with Estonian Air, but I regard any CEO's words as whipped cream on top of a cake- the ingredients of which are numbers and data of the company at the time the statement is made.



Never has gravity been so uplifting.
User currently offlinetraveler_7 From Estonia, joined May 2000, 540 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2025 times:

I re read the interview with new CEO of Estonian Air
http://www.e24.ee/1050656/jan-palm-r...nulli-joudmine-oleks-hea-saavutus/
Sorry in Estonian only.
In his interview he states that unless OV will be able to sell remaining CRJ's they will continue to operate them, and since selling Bombardiers is not an easy task it is probable that they continue to operate them. New strategy needs 5 planes so either they will find two more bombardiers, or will have to continue with mixed fleet.


User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2018 times:

Quoting traveler_7 (Reply 18):
In his interview he states that unless OV will be able to sell remaining CRJ's they will continue to operate them, and since selling Bombardiers is not an easy task it is probable that they continue to operate them.

Not exactly a great sales strategy to publicly moan over and over again about the stuff you are hoping to sell...


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