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Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s  
User currently offlinedeaphen From India, joined Jul 2005, 1425 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 32203 times:

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/chann...summons-boeing-brass-poor-787s-029
"Unhappy with the performance of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner” aircraft due to “recurring technical snags”, a furious civil aviation ministry and Air India have summoned Boeing Corporation’s top brass to India, top aviation sources told this newspaper.

Sources said of the three Dreamliners received so far, one or the other aircraft is usually grounded at a time due to some snag. Such snags in new aircraft have puzzled the airline."

What next?


I want every single airport and airplane in India to be on A.net!
97 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineslinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 822 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 32270 times:

What next?

More grandstanding to draw attention from their own mismanagement, fraud, poor industrial relations and what should be a dead duck airline perhaps?


User currently online817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2182 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 32199 times:

Shocker... Is anyone else not surprised by this?


Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3114 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 32154 times:

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 2):
Shocker... Is anyone else not surprised by this?

At least AI is consistent in it's never ending whining about their aircraft. I'm surprised so little, that it is not measurable.  Wow!



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 883 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 32121 times:

And they wonder why no one wants to do business with them..(e.g. no takers for their 77Ls)

User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1794 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 32101 times:
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I assume AI knew that they were taking delivery o a new aircraft type which usually encounters early operational issues, The A380 had them and I assume the A350 will too.

Funny how no-one else seems to have these problems.....maybe the Japanese are too discrete?

[Edited 2012-11-24 03:16:37]

User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 32033 times:

All aircraft have settling in problems. Sometimes they fly for months with back-crew and specialist engineers.

Has any airline actually sung the praises of the 787?

Time for Boeing to get their spin guys out.


User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 31875 times:

Interestingly, in the article Air India seems to be comparing the 787 EIS with the 777, ignoring the fact that AI didn't take the 777 until the aircraft had been in service for over 10 years, by which time the early snags had been ironed out.

I wonder how much compensation AI is going for, or will Boeing try and buy them back and offer them to someone else!


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 31870 times:

It depends on the type of snags encountered.....are these flt operationally induced or maintenance induced....do other operators with similiar type aircraft have them too.....that will indicate the reason.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 31819 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 6):
Has any airline actually sung the praises of the 787?

ANA has, particularly regarding the efficiency of the aircraft being better than expected. I don't have a link, off the top of my head, but it's in the forum.

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 7):
I wonder how much compensation AI is going for, or will Boeing try and buy them back and offer them to someone else!

In my useless opinion, Boeing would be well off to tell AI to go fly a kite. AI has a lot in common with Ryanair; whenever either carrier calls Boeing or Airbus, seems like all they get is hold music!


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 31806 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 6):

Yes. JAL and ANA have both praised the 787s performance, in fact ANA did a top of order for it. Your Boeing bashing is getting tiring.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15715 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 31766 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 6):
Time for Boeing to get their spin guys out

If the complaints came from a competent airline, you might have a point. But we all know that Air India is a government run basket case and an industry laughing stock that probably couldn't turn a profit if their fuel were free.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
In my useless opinion, Boeing would be well off to tell AI to go fly a kite.

If they were an actual private business they could. But unfortunately, Air India is very much under the thumb of the Indian government and so Boeing failing to listen to their complaints, no matter how frivolous, could jeopardize their ability to secure Indian defense contracts.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1558 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 31389 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 5):
The A380

A) The A380 didn't really have them, it had a very smooth service entry.

B) The 787 has been in service, in theory, for more than a year so Boeing should be getting on top of reliability problems.

But it's much easier to try and throw shade on Airbus and Air India than admit that there may be problems with some Boeing 787's which have been repeatedly rebuilt through change incorporation.



BV
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 31154 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 6):
Has any airline actually sung the praises of the 787?
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
ANA
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):
Yes. JAL and ANA have both praised the 787s performance, in fact ANA did a top of order for it. Your Boeing bashing is getting tiring.

Add UA, ET, and LA like theirs, too. LO is to begin operatioing the B-787 this month. So far, about 33 aircraft have been dlivered to about 8 airlines, including AI. Only AI has complained about operating the B-787.


User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 30833 times:

G'day

Quoting deaphen (Thread starter):
Sources said of the three Dreamliners received so far, one or the other aircraft is usually grounded at a time due to some snag. Such snags in new aircraft have puzzled the airline."

Every new aircraft entering service experiences some snags, else the airframers would not send out large support teams to each new customer airline to assist with entry into service. No difference whether A, B, C or E.

With the less than proactive approach of AI or the GOI - same thing - their arrogant attitude likely feeds down to the line personnel supposedly in charge of a smooth service entry. In the interest of their employer airline they should have been keen learning to kick the tires properly but I guess that is not how things work in India. Arrogant on top results in equal or even bigger arrogance and ignorance at the "servant" level.  

I guess someone from the B company has to get there to smooth the waves a bit, they have to to keep the defense side of the business going, but we will continue to hear about this saga for some time to come - while everybody else happily keeps flying the 787 around the world.  


Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlineDrColenzo From UK - Scotland, joined Jan 2012, 138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 30042 times:

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 1):
More grandstanding to draw attention from their own mismanagement, fraud, poor industrial relations and what should be a dead duck airline perhaps?

Yep.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 3):
At least AI is consistent in it's never ending whining about their aircraft. I'm surprised so little, that it is not measurable.

Yep.

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 4):
And they wonder why no one wants to do business with them..(e.g. no takers for their 77Ls)

Yep.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
ANA has, particularly regarding the efficiency of the aircraft being better than expected. I don't have a link, off the top of my head, but it's in the forum.

Yep.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):
Yes. JAL and ANA have both praised the 787s performance, in fact ANA did a top of order for it. Your Boeing bashing is getting tiring.

Yep.

Par for the course as far as Air India is concerned. Indeed, I very thinly recollect something similar with the 747-400 although you will have to find some information to back me up on that - I am sure I remember some Indian official ranting on at the time about the wonders of the Il-86/Il-96, but it is only a recollection from twenty years ago.

From my business and family dealings with India, I have witnessed some real finger pointing by government departments at outsiders who are to blame for their own problems - maybe there is something wrong with the Air India 787s, maybe this is real, but then stop whining and blaming everyone, get off your backsides and sort the problem out

Thank God normal Indian business people and indeed normal Indian people are not like this and are instead ernest and hardworking people.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4116 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 29824 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 6):
All aircraft have settling in problems. Sometimes they fly for months with back-crew and specialist engineers.

Has any airline actually sung the praises of the 787?

Time for Boeing to get their spin guys out.

No one else seem to be having the problems that AI is having, there fore this would seem as a way for AI to try to get something for nothing. I have to laugh at all the problems AI is coming up with their aircraft. I believe the problems have to be systemic at AI and not really a problem with their aircraft. If AI is really having the amount of problems they say they are, then maybe they should have ordered the A350...oh wait that plane is not even built yet, and I am sure that AI would find fault it as well.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 29754 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 5):
Funny how no-one else seems to have these problems.....maybe the Japanese are too discrete?

ANA had their share of issues in the beginning. I kept tabs on their 787s for a few weeks back in March while they had 5 frames:
http://www.pdxlight.com/787/ANA787.htm

I'm not suggesting the reliability during that timeframe was good or bad for a new type. It merely shows that the lack of any publicized issues doesn't necessarily equate to trouble-free operations. It's also worth noting that an airline won't typically be spending millions on a media campaign to promote a new product - only to turn around to publicly criticize it. Enter Air India... they may be alone in that regard.

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 14):
With the less than proactive approach of AI or the GOI - same thing - their arrogant attitude likely feeds down to the line personnel supposedly in charge of a smooth service entry. In the interest of their employer airline they should have been keen learning to kick the tires properly but I guess that is not how things work in India. Arrogant on top results in equal or even bigger arrogance and ignorance at the "servant" level.

I think it's a little unfair to suggest such on the mx level when we're not privy to the issues they may be experiencing. Personally, I don't doubt they've been seeing some teething issues, but it seems AI management/govt are simply exploiting the issue once again and throwing another public tantrum. As the saying goes, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 29676 times:

Please stop taking these kinds of comments at face value.

Deccan Chronicle's "top aviation sources" are rubbish, if their past claims are any indicator.

AI is dealing with normal teething issues, and AI has certainly requested assistance from Boeing to help overcome these issues, but "furious Civil Aviation Ministry" and "Boeing's top brass" are exaggerations to a ridiculous level.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 29295 times:

Quoting deaphen (Thread starter):
What next?

It is at times like this the other OEM is happy they didn't get the order  

Boeing will investigate the problems brought forward and deal with them. That's what next.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 28722 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 18):
but it seems AI management/govt are simply exploiting the issue once again and throwing another public tantrum.

AI management does not throw public tantrums.

What you are referencing is our sensationalist press, which takes random comments, often out of context, and makes a massive story out of them.

A.net needs to learn to take our press less seriously.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently onlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 570 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 28393 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 5):
Funny how no-one else seems to have these problems.....maybe the Japanese are too discrete?

NH did have some problems in the beginning (see below), but instead of whining and complaining, they just fixed the problems. I'm sure Boeing was notified and NH may have even asked for help, but they certainly didn't do this ridiculous grandstanding like AI does.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):
Yes. JAL and ANA have both praised the 787s performance, in fact ANA did a top of order for it. Your Boeing bashing is getting tiring.

  

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Only AI has complained about operating the B-787.

At least in this fashion. They aren't the only airline to have minor problems with the 787, but they are the only ones publicly complaining about it.

Quoting flood (Reply 18):
ANA had their share of issues in the beginning. I kept tabs on their 787s for a few weeks back in March while they had 5 frames:

  

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 21):
A.net needs to learn to take our press less seriously.

Regardless of AI's original intent, they've created a reputation for shameless, public bashing of the products which they buy. The perception is that AI is again fishing for compensation for problems that are to be expected with a new aircraft.



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30548 posts, RR: 84
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 28220 times:
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QR took delivery of their third 787-8 last week and AAB isn't chewing on glass about them, so that alone must be proof the 787 is perfect.     

User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 28106 times:

So how are UAL's 787s doing? I recall the first flight was delayed because the cockpit door didn't lock properly. How have they been performing since?

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30548 posts, RR: 84
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 27931 times:
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Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 23):
So how are UAL's 787s doing?

The news reports that I can find have been favorable. They and QR each received their 3rd airframe on the 20th.


User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 527 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 28784 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 12):
A) The A380 didn't really have them, it had a very smooth service entry.

Uhhh what? A 380 was and is not immune to issues at EIS.
Alternate Brake System
Both T900 and GP7200 Engines have operational glitches (including in flight shut downs)
Microcracks in the wings.
System software issues (nuisance warnings)
Main Gear steering system.

As pointed out in the above threads, it is normal to identify issues at EIS for an airframe, engines, and systems as well (IFE to plumbing).

I did find the following quote in the article amusing:
"Sources said Air India had conveyed to Boeing that the image of the airline could take a severe beating if such snags kept occurring. "

The image has suffered at the hands of functioning aircraft as well...



Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4116 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 28375 times:

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 25):
I did find the following quote in the article amusing:
"Sources said Air India had conveyed to Boeing that the image of the airline could take a severe beating if such snags kept occurring. "

The image has suffered at the hands of functioning aircraft as well...

I thought that I had misread that quote. The airline image is suffering not only due to functioning aircraft also the dysfunctional and often incompetent management as well.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 28953 times:

This article points to issues with the MEL:

[...] "the three Boeing 787 Dreamliners that the national carrier bought have been grounded at Delhi’s IndiraGandhi International Airport since Sunday evening [the article was posted Tuesday, 20th] owing to technical problems causing the beleaguered carrier further losses.

Top sources within the airline described the error as the Minimum Equipment List (MEL) not responding for operation clearance. Explaining the problem, a top Air India official on the condition of anonymity said, “For any aircraft to be cleared for operations, the MEL is required. The three aircraft were grounded as the MEL did not respond.”

The official added, however, that one of the aircraft was later cleared for operations on Monday afternoon but the others would remain grounded till they were able to ascertain the problem. “Till the time that we are able to establish the electronic driver error, the planes will be grounded and it may take some time to resolve the problem,” he added. Some sources told MiD DAY that a major engine-related issue with the aircraft could also be the reason behind the grounding."

http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/nov...grounds-Air-Indias-Dreamliners.htm


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12877 posts, RR: 100
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 28719 times:
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ANA CEO and President Shinichiro Ito said “ANA is delighted with the performance of the 787′s in its fleet over the course of the last year. The 787 benefits from strong fuel efficiency with high dispatch reliability, and importantly, is well regarded by our passengers. As ANA works towards becoming Asia’s number one airline, we remain committed to the 787 to help support and drive our growth strategy”.

From:
http://airnation.net/2012/11/03/ana-celebrates-1-year-787/


Quite different than AI's response. ANA has had increasing dispatch reliability with only 96.3% in January of 2012 (google it, the links I found were competing blogs).

So there is a learning curve with the 787. But its a good plane once the airline gets through that curve.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 21):
NH did have some problems in the beginning (see below), but instead of whining and complaining, they just fixed the problems. I'm sure Boeing was notified and NH may have even asked for help, but they certainly didn't do this ridiculous grandstanding like AI does.

ANA also did numbers. e.g., the low January numbers. Not a complaint, just 'here is what we are achieving, now help us broadcast better numbers.' ANA did. Now Boeing will have broadcast how to achieve excellent reliability and so the question is, what is AI having issues with?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
QR took delivery of their third 787-8 last week and AAB isn't chewing on glass about them, so that alone must be proof the 787 is perfect.

That alone says a bit for AAB will complain if there is half a reason to complain. Yet AI is the noise maker.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 3):
At least AI is consistent in it's never ending whining about their aircraft. I'm surprised so little, that it is not measurable.

   The tradesman who always blames his tools. There is a reason its become 'the airline that shall not be named.'

The 787 isn't perfect, but AI 'cries wolf' too often. But I have one consolidation; as AI continues to sabotage its own growth (since it is a branch of the GoI, I include the GoI's miss-steps in this), its market share will wane and eventually it just won't matter what they say. AI should have grown by leaps and bounds the last decade. Instead, they are #3 in their home market. When will they fix the hubbing and truly take on the mid-east airlines. For with India's HUGE O&D traffic, there should be no competition.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7050 posts, RR: 8
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 28528 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 27):
Top sources within the airline described the error as the Minimum Equipment List (MEL) not responding for operation clearance.

So we take it that the MEL is strictly computer based and Windows 8 came up with the BSD rather than the MEL, perhaps Boeing should move from Microsoft to Apple OS?
Just kidding  

With 3 frames down due to technical issue it is only fair for AI to demand additional compensation from Boeing for the continued delays to their operations.
Boeing should fly these a/c back to the USA where the technical expertise exist to fix them properly, give AI some funds for the 3 months it will take to thrash the problems out, the peace and quiet that Boeing will receive for the next 3 months should be worth some weight in gold.
Again just kidding, however, the constant grand standing does get tiresome, since these a/c are a black hole for AI why don't they simple stop throwing good money after bad, get rid of the a/c and get somethign else, A330's, A350, whatever, but ya gotta move on sometime right?


User currently offlineet767fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 31 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 28233 times:

Ethiopian (ET) seems to like their 787s. They ordered three more this month.


caution: wake turbulance!
User currently offlineswallow From Uganda, joined Jul 2007, 554 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 27332 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 27):
Top sources within the airline described the error as the Minimum Equipment List (MEL) not responding for operation clearance. Explaining the problem, a top Air India official on the condition of anonymity said, “For any aircraft to be cleared for operations, the MEL is required. The three aircraft were grounded as the MEL did not respond.”

Dosen't Boeing have field service engineers embedded with AI to provide entry-into-service support? Or would AI be expected to resolve bugs like a MEL going AWOL?

From the linked article in reply 27,

Rohit Nandan, CMD Air India, said he would comment on the issue after talking to the engineering department. He, however, maintained that an engineering problem in any new machine was not unusual and they were coping well.

This guy knows what he is doing. No need to throw toys. Calm heads prevail.

[Edited 2012-11-24 09:05:56]

[Edited 2012-11-24 09:21:37]


The grass is greener where you water it
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3383 posts, RR: 26
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 27230 times:
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There are probably at least 6 to 10 field service people from Boeing on site, and daily explicit communications to Boeing Customer Support (or what ever ambiguous name they've attached to the unit to obscure it's function).

Did they every identify why the cargo door fittings exploded? One bad thing about the 787 is is doesn't show ramp rash like aluminum.

Has anyone verified that the appropriate animal sacrifices were carried out? Maybe this is all just ignored deities.   


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17332 posts, RR: 46
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 27206 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
ANA CEO and President Shinichiro Ito said “ANA is delighted with the performance of the 787′s in its fleet over the course of the last year. The 787 benefits from strong fuel efficiency with high dispatch reliability, and importantly, is well regarded by our passengers. As ANA works towards becoming Asia’s number one airline, we remain committed to the 787 to help support and drive our growth strategy”.

Would the NH CEO say anything different? When has the head of a Japanese company ever said anything negative about anything? They probably were delighted with the Koito seats too 



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30548 posts, RR: 84
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 26800 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
Would the NH CEO say anything different?

In the end, if they weren't satisfied, they wouldn't have ordered any more - and they did.  


User currently onlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3565 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 25876 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):
A.net needs to learn to take our press less seriously.

Including its bloggers.

Quoting et767fan (Reply 30):
Ethiopian (ET) seems to like their 787s. They ordered three more this month.

And yet we were told last month by an Indian blogger that Ethiopian was also struggling with systemic failures.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12877 posts, RR: 100
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 25367 times:
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Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 25):
I did find the following quote in the article amusing:
"Sources said Air India had conveyed to Boeing that the image of the airline could take a severe beating if such snags kept occurring. "

   AI is doing a little better post the pilot strike, but there will be another issue that inhibits meeting on time performance that is somehow never AI's fault. When it is never someone's fault, eventually you realize they are covering up.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
Would the NH CEO say anything different?

In the end, if they weren't satisfied, they wouldn't have ordered any more - and they did.

Japanese CEOs won't say anything positive if there is an issue. Only if the issues are resolved to their satisfaction do they say good things. As Stitch noted, they ordered more. That proves a bit.

Once the diagnostic software gets 'worked out' the 787 will be a very easy to maintain bird. But it will take a team used to the software which just takes time.

AI is well known for blaming everyone but themselves for their issues. As already noted, they and AAB make too much noise to be taken seriously. If ANA, JAL, or LAN were making noise, I'd listen and listen closely. AI or QR?    Some airlines have too much drama to be taken seriously.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3092 posts, RR: 4
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days ago) and read 22951 times:

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 15):
I am sure I remember some Indian official ranting on at the time about the wonders of the Il-86/Il-96, but it is only a recollection from twenty years ago.
Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 15):
I have witnessed some real finger pointing by government departments at outsiders who are to blame for their own problems

As usual, any AI topic brings out all the AI bashers on this forum (who seem to be growing in numbers day by day)....but you take the cake my friend.....why would any Indian official recite the " wonders of the Il-86/Il-96" when not a single airline in India has ever used any Russian planes at all....? You really need to back up your claims with some solid articles before you go on an AI/India rant of your own, just because it's become a trend these days on a.net........


User currently offlineOshkosh1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days ago) and read 22524 times:

As with ANY industry...there will ALWAYS be "snags" when a completely new product is introduced and they are operated in real world conditions/tempo/non-OEM maintenance personnel etc...

To expect otherwise shows only ignorance of anticipated early hour gremlins.



C-150/2, 172, 177, 182, 209, Beech King Air, Convair 580, Twin Otter, RJ, CRJ, ERJ B717,27,37,47,57,67,77. DC8,9,10. MD8
User currently offlineDLT123 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days ago) and read 22268 times:

Let us not forget that the ANA Seattle to Tokyo launch flight had a full 24 hour delay. And that was in Boeing'S backyard.

http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler....ht-seattle-to-tokyo-narita-review/


User currently offlinefshplns From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 21488 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):
AI management does not throw public tantrums.

What you are referencing is our sensationalist press, which takes random comments, often out of context, and makes a massive story out of them.

The sensationalist press, are they related in anyway to that infamous paper in England, or the trash tabloids here in the states?


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7184 posts, RR: 17
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 21386 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 3):
At least AI is consistent in it's never ending whining about their aircraft.

I'll make the popcorn and grab the brews.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
ANA CEO and President Shinichiro Ito said “ANA is delighted with the performance of the 787′s in its fleet over the course of the last year. The 787 benefits from strong fuel efficiency with high dispatch reliability, and importantly, is well regarded by our passengers. As ANA works towards becoming Asia’s number one airline, we remain committed to the 787 to help support and drive our growth strategy”.

Ito-shachô should have a sitdown with the aviation ministry of India to see why they're having so many complaints.

Quoting DLT123 (Reply 39):
Let us not forget that the ANA Seattle to Tokyo launch flight had a full 24 hour delay. And that was in Boeing'S backyard.

That could happen with any aircraft, mind you. All bad luck, but then again, NH loves their 787 to death.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 21457 times:

Quoting fshplns (Reply 40):
The sensationalist press, are they related in anyway to that infamous paper in England, or the trash tabloids here in the states?

Having lived in the US for many years, I can tell you that even the trashiest tabloids in the US have more integrity than many "mainstream" English-language news outlets in India.

For real news, you need to tune into the local-language media.

Quoting flood (Reply 27):
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/nov...s.htm

This is the only quote from that article which is relevant:

Quote:
When MiD DAY contacted Rohit Nandan, CMD Air India, said he would comment on the issue after talking to the engineering department. He, however, maintained that an engineering problem in any new machine was not unusual and they were coping well.

But of course, that AI is facing normal teething problems which will resolve themselves soon enough is not going to sell papers.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineblueshamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2857 posts, RR: 25
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 21295 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 35):

I was told during the Kingfisher debacle by an Indian friend flying for them:

"In India, politicians are simply corrupt, news reporters are people who wish they had the lifestyle of politicians and bloggers are people who simply wish they were news reporters." 



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 21301 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 5):
Funny how no-one else seems to have these problems.....maybe the Japanese are too discrete?

There was a thread 2 weeks ago re a JAL 787 that was delayed about 24 hours at BOS due to an inoperative PA system.
2 JAL 787s At Boston Now (by chrisnh Nov 12 2012 in Civil Aviation)

And ANA's inaugural flight from SEA was delayed 24 hours due to a mechanical problem.
http://www.komonews.com/news/boeing/...Seattle-Tokyo-route-172149751.html

ANA also had a 787 flight from FRA cancelled last January due to some technical problem.
ANA B-787 Stuck In Frankfurt AOG (by luxair_ca Jan 26 2012 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4941 posts, RR: 19
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 21073 times:

I think AI is going to argue with Boeing officials for a lower price on these aircraft. After all, isn't arguing a large part of doing business in India? Sometimes I think it's their national pastime.


Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineflylku From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 800 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20542 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):
Yes. JAL and ANA have both praised the 787s performance, in fact ANA did a top of order for it. Your Boeing bashing is getting tiring.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Add UA, ET, and LA like theirs, too. LO is to begin operatioing the B-787 this month. So far, about 33 aircraft have been dlivered to about 8 airlines, including AI. Only AI has complained about operating the B-787.

Indeed. I help customers with a highly technical product. There are always problems for which the product itself is to blame but more often than not it is the organization itself that is responsible for poor performance.. I frequently use peer pressure to motivate them. "Why is it that these guys over here are having great success with the same product and you struggle?" It is a real motivator. You benchmark X versus Y and Y rolls up their sleeves and says "If they can, we can too, only better!"



...are we there yet?
User currently onlinesonomaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20083 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

So aside from AI grandstanding, do we have an specifics about what problems they've encountered? I would assume they know Boeing's phone number to call with TECH issues. I'd assume that Boeing has technical staff available at most times to consult.

For now, this sounds like the same tired song from the same tired airline. Boeing will be "nice" and work with them simply because of the size of the Indian market though many of us would prefer Boeing told them to stuff it.


User currently offlineFLALEFTY From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 440 posts, RR: 3
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19996 times:

Air India ordered these 27 787s when economic times were much better and they were poised for what was expected to be unprecedented international growth. Thanks to being a launch customer and for compensation received from Boeing received due to the extensive delivery delays, the net unit cost of AI's 787s is just barely over $100M per plane, or slightly above the retail price of a 739ER.

But as we all are aware, AI, like most other international airlines, has struggled due to the global economic recession. Due to these circumstances, AI has been suffering from "buyer's remorse". But due to pressuring Boeing for delay compensation, rather than order modifications & cancellations, they are still on the hook for a large fleet of 787s that they don't really need. So this has led them to use negative publicity over the early-service teething problems to force Boeing into more compensation.

So what do I think AI wants? Well, there is that mini-fleet of 777LRs that did not work out for them. I bet if Boeing took them back at book value as compensation, the whining about the 787s would cease. Then Boeing could put them back on the 777 line to be converted to 777Fs, where there is a market demand.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30548 posts, RR: 84
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19830 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 48):
Then Boeing could put them back on the 777 line to be converted to 777Fs, where there is a market demand.

That conversion would cost a mint. Boeing would be better off just shifting them for a song to another 787 customer as compensation.


As noted by a number of Indian members, the real "outrage" isn't coming from Air India, but "unnamed Aviation Ministry officials". So we really shouldn't be raking Air India management over the coals on this on, but greedy GoI officials looking for still more money to line their pockets.

[Edited 2012-11-24 14:02:24]

User currently offlineFLALEFTY From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 440 posts, RR: 3
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19435 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 49):
As noted by a number of Indian members, the real "outrage" isn't coming from Air India, but "unnamed Aviation Ministry officials". So we really shouldn't be raking Air India management over the coals on this on, but greedy GoI officials looking for still more money to line their pockets.

Good point. But since AI is government-owned, the Aviation Ministry likely has a good bit of pull.

Also, there is more at stake for Boeing. For instance, the Indian military has ordered C-17s and P-8s. They also have have teased Boeing over the years with the potential of a fairly-large F-18E/F order. Of course, for the time being, that fighter order is with Dassault, but the Indians have a history of changing the rules of procurement deals on a whim.

You might be right, Boeing could find a good home for the 777LRs, but I think converted to freighters might be more marketable.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19039 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 49):
As noted by a number of Indian members, the real "outrage" isn't coming from Air India, but "unnamed Aviation Ministry officials". So we really shouldn't be raking Air India management over the coals on this on, but greedy GoI officials looking for still more money to line their pockets.

The most likely culprit is a journalist who needed a news story, not a ministry official.

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 48):
But as we all are aware, AI, like most other international airlines, has struggled due to the global economic recession. Due to these circumstances, AI has been suffering from "buyer's remorse". But due to pressuring Boeing for delay compensation, rather than order modifications & cancellations, they are still on the hook for a large fleet of 787s that they don't really need. So this has led them to use negative publicity over the early-service teething problems to force Boeing into more compensation.

AI considered cancelling 1/2 the order last year, however they decided to take the whole order because they needed all the aircraft.

Routes like SYD, MEL, NBO, DAR, and PEK have been sitting on the backburner for a long time waiting for these aircraft - I don't think there is any doubt that AI can find uses for 787s when the time comes.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 37):
As usual, any AI topic brings out all the AI bashers on this forum (who seem to be growing in numbers day by day)....but you take the cake my friend.....why would any Indian official recite the " wonders of the Il-86/Il-96" when not a single airline in India has ever used any Russian planes at all....? You really need to back up your claims with some solid articles before you go on an AI/India rant of your own, just because it's become a trend these days on a.net........

To anybody who doesn't deal with the Indian aviation sector on a day to day basis, AI looks like a ridiculously dysfunctional airline. And because of that, it almost seems rational to be an AI basher.

Only those who understand the power structure and various agendas being pushed in the Indian Aviation sector and within AI can even dream of understanding why things happen the way they do.

Bargaining over compensation through the press is not something AI does by choice, but rather because AI is owned by the people and therefore must disclose every tiny detail.

And thanks to our sensationalist press, each one of those tiny details gets blown out of proportion.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17711 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 44):
There was a thread 2 weeks ago re a JAL 787 that was delayed about 24 hours at BOS due to an inoperative PA system.
2 JAL 787s At Boston Now (by chrisnh Nov 12 2012 in Civil Aviation)

And ANA's inaugural flight from SEA was delayed 24 hours due to a mechanical problem.
http://www.komonews.com/news/boeing/...Seattle-Tokyo-route-172149751.html

ANA also had a 787 flight from FRA cancelled last January due to some technical problem.
ANA B-787 Stuck In Frankfurt AOG (by luxair_ca Jan 26 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Since your so big on ANA, Why not look at it Dispatch Reliability over a period that Matters (a year)? Where the Airline says they have dispatch reliability of 99.3% for the first year.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.as...ccea95-7c7a-4ec6-8612-cf2644b31831

http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...one-year-of-boeing-787-operations/



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 75
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 17027 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):

Yes. JAL and ANA have both praised the 787s performance, in fact ANA did a top of order for it.

To be fair, is that actually true ? I thought the additional order was not for the type they were currently operating, it was for the 787-9 ?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):

Add UA, ET, and LA like theirs, too. LO is to begin operatioing the B-787 this month. So far, about 33 aircraft have been dlivered to about 8 airlines, including AI. Only AI has complained about operating the B-787.

You cannot infer from that that they have been problem free. I would suggest it is more to the way they have planned their airlines EIS to allow for problems to be solved, this could as simple as having an increased turn around time so people can learn about the new aircraft.

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 14):

Every new aircraft entering service experiences some snags, else the airframers would not send out large support teams to each new customer airline to assist with entry into service. No difference whether A, B, C or E.

Yes, and it takes a lot of planning and investment on the airlines behalf to introduce a new aircraft. You cannot expect anything to be perfect, that is why service recovery has to be part of the EIS planning.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 16):
No one else seem to be having the problems that AI is having, there fore this would seem as a way for AI to try to get something for nothing.

Other airlines have had problems, but they have obviously expected to have some, so they have the resources in place ready for that. Not sure if you have been to Japan, going to one of their airports, everything works, go to a similar airport in the states, they do not have the same pride in their work, a lot of things a broken. Go to an airport in India, and the difference is black and white.

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 25):
Uhhh what? A 380 was and is not immune to issues at EIS.
Alternate Brake System
Both T900 and GP7200 Engines have operational glitches (including in flight shut downs)
Microcracks in the wings.
System software issues (nuisance warnings)
Main Gear steering system.

The A380 has been in service now for over 5 years, that is 5 years worth of problems. The EIS was very smooth, in part that was due to the large amount of testing that was done prior to EIS.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
ANA has had increasing dispatch reliability with only 96.3% in January of 2012 (google it, the links I found were competing blogs).

96.3% is not fantastic, however not that bad. As long as it is trending to improve, that is what you want.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10345 posts, RR: 14
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16850 times:

Seems to me that the biggest problem, here, is AI's attitude and how they are handling the problem, as opposed to the other operators of the 787. The other carriers may, indeed, be having the SAME problems as AI, but they'd rather work with Boeing and fix them. AI would rather shift the blame to Boeing instead of just getting the job done.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4856 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16615 times:

I might just sit around and wait until ANA, JAL, Ethiopian, UA, QR, LA come back with a
"Unhappy with the performance of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner” aircraft due to “recurring technical snags” complaint...

Seriously AI and their management are an absolute joke making fools of the so called national carrier...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16618 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 53):
To be fair, is that actually true ? I thought the additional order was not for the type they were currently operating, it was for the 787-9 ?

Tell me zeke, is it possible to operate a 787-9 now? I think you are reaching on this one.   

Quoting zeke (Reply 53):
The A380 has been in service now for over 5 years, that is 5 years worth of problems. The EIS was very smooth, in part that was due to the large amount of testing that was done prior to EIS.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
ANA has had increasing dispatch reliability with only 96.3% in January of 2012 (google it, the links I found were competing blogs).

96.3% is not fantastic, however not that bad. As long as it is trending to improve, that is what you want.

That 96.3% was for One month... For the Whole year 99.3%! Not bad huh?

Incidently, AF is recently claiming a 97% DR for their A380's.



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16449 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 56):
That 96.3% was for One month... For the Whole year 99.3%! Not bad huh?

The 99.3% figure refers to "flight operation rate", as indicated in your second link. I don't think this is measured the same way as dispatch reliability?


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16316 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 57):
I don't think this is measured the same way as dispatch reliability?

I think it does, as it was reported in other threads (including the other link in my previous post).

As a matter of fact, RR created their own news bite off of that report, claiming their T-1000 had a 99.9% DR over that period.



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9489 posts, RR: 52
Reply 59, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16237 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 12):
A) The A380 didn't really have them, it had a very smooth service entry.

I don't think any airplane is immune to issues but most airlines got spoiled with the 777. One could argue with the crack problem that the A380 had the worst EIS since the A320 and the 787 is hardly any better.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16188 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 54):
Seems to me that the biggest problem, here, is AI's attitude and how they are handling the problem, as opposed to the other operators of the 787. The other carriers may, indeed, be having the SAME problems as AI, but they'd rather work with Boeing and fix them. AI would rather shift the blame to Boeing instead of just getting the job done.

I don't see any evidence to back up this argument.

When AI was facing a cargo door problem, management/maintenance consulted with the Boeing experts stationed in India and implemented a solution.

When AI was facing a problem with the air conditioning system, management/maintenance consulted with the Boeing experts stationed in India and the US, and implemented a solution.

When AI was facing a problem with some electronics, management/maintenance consulted with the Boeing experts stationed in India and the US, and implemented a solution.

When AI was facing some problems with the engines, management/maintenance consulted with the GE experts and implemented a solution.

I fail to see how this is significantly different in any way from the other operators deal with new fleet teething issues.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 61, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16185 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 58):
I think it does, as it was reported in other threads (including the other link in my previous post).

I recall the "99.3%" figure in another thread as well, but it was also based on these tables depicting "flight operation rate".

With regards to your other link, note she cites Adrian Schofield. Yet if you look at his article, he also uses the same table - with no mention of "dispatch reliability". Again, only "flight operation rate":

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.as...81152f-1546-4783-a28c-2f5da21e5c5f

Quoting mffoda (Reply 58):
As a matter of fact, RR created their own news bite off of that report, claiming their T-1000 had a 99.9% DR over that period.

Sure, but that obviously only refers to the engines.


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15884 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 61):
Quoting mffoda (Reply 58):
As a matter of fact, RR created their own news bite off of that report, claiming their T-1000 had a 99.9% DR over that period.

Sure, but that obviously only refers to the engines.

Well the RR press release followed the ANA briefing stating the overall ANA 787 rate of 99.3% for the year.

One would think? that the very high RR rate was one of the main contributing factors in the overall rate that ANA briefed.

"ANA CEO and President Shinichiro Ito said “ANA is delighted with the performance of the 787′s in its fleet over the course of the last year. The 787 benefits from strong fuel efficiency with high dispatch reliability"

Notice he didn't say Average or expected dispatch reliability...



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10345 posts, RR: 14
Reply 63, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15757 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 60):
Quoting mayor (Reply 54):Seems to me that the biggest problem, here, is AI's attitude and how they are handling the problem, as opposed to the other operators of the 787. The other carriers may, indeed, be having the SAME problems as AI, but they'd rather work with Boeing and fix them. AI would rather shift the blame to Boeing instead of just getting the job done.
I don't see any evidence to back up this argument.

Maybe I should clarify.......I'm talking about in this particular case, not past problems that they've had. In this particular instance, they seem to be handling it much differently than they have with other problems they've had, at least according to you.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15657 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 63):
Maybe I should clarify.......I'm talking about in this particular case, not past problems that they've had. In this particular instance, they seem to be handling it much differently than they have with other problems they've had, at least according to you.

The current (electronics) issues are being handled no differently than the other teething problems AI has faced. AI is working with the Boeing resources provided in India and the US to troubleshoot the problem and find effective solutions.

Some nameless official (or journalist) making noises about "summoning top brass" does not change AI Engineering's process of rectifying technical issues in any way.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 14792 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 62):
One would think? that the very high RR rate was one of the main contributing factors in the overall rate that ANA briefed.

Yes, but it simply doesn't speak for the aircraft as a whole.

Unless ANA or the industry have a differing and set definition for "flight operation rate", to me it merely speaks for a route having been successfully operated by an aircraft. In other words, 10 legs scheduled to be operated by a 787 and none of the flights were canceled/subbed with another type due to mx, and you get a FO rate of 100%. However, if two of those flights left the gate 30 minutes late due to a technical glitch, the DR would be only 80%.


User currently onlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4858 posts, RR: 5
Reply 66, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 14549 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 64):
Some nameless official (or journalist) making noises about "summoning top brass"

If this is a fact and Boeing chooses to respond they should tell AI that they have a team in India that is providing the technical support as contracted for and that they have no evidence that the team is having any difficulty assisting in solving issues.
If Boeing sends someone it should be a relatively minor official to get the point across that when AI or its political master say's jump they are not responding with "how high".
Also the person sent should fly with another carrier to reinforce the point.

[Edited 2012-11-24 18:31:14]

User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 14232 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 67):
If this is a fact and Boeing chooses to respond they should tell AI that they have a team in India that is providing the technical support as contracted for and that they have no evidence that the team is having any difficulty assisting in solving issues.
If Boeing sends someone it should be a relatively minor official to get the point across that when AI or its political master say's jump they are not responding with "how high".
Also the person sent should fly with another carrier to reinforce the point.

I agree 100%.

AI must follow the procedure set to troubleshoot teething issues - first try to solve it within the company, then via the support Boeing has sent to India, and then via Boeing in the US if the Indian team cannot sort it out. This is the same procedure AI has used for all the other issues faced so far. Note that summoning top brass is nowhere in that list.

Summoning top brass over teething issues is absolutely ridiculous. However, I get the feeling that this article is rubbish...



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17332 posts, RR: 46
Reply 68, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 14177 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
QR took delivery of their third 787-8 last week and AAB isn't chewing on glass about them, so that alone must be proof the 787 is perfect.

   I'm sure he'll find something.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):
Japanese CEOs won't say anything positive if there is an issue.

Yeah they bring in a foreigner to say there's a problem and then fire him for stating the obvious ala Olympus 



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 14039 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 65):
Quoting mffoda (Reply 62):
One would think? that the very high RR rate was one of the main contributing factors in the overall rate that ANA briefed.

Yes, but it simply doesn't speak for the aircraft as a whole.

Unless ANA or the industry have a differing and set definition for "flight operation rate", to me it merely speaks for a route having been successfully operated by an aircraft. In other words, 10 legs scheduled to be operated by a 787 and none of the flights were canceled/subbed with another type due to mx, and you get a FO rate of 100%. However, if two of those flights left the gate 30 minutes late due to a technical glitch, the DR would be only 80%.

Flood, go back and have another look at the table in the airline repoter thread. It is in fact talking about DR.

Flight Operation Rate = Dispatch Reliability

The easiest way to confirm this, is by their own comparison to the rest of their fleet. See the last line of the table ( ) is the average of all ANA flights. I cut and pasted the table below, but the format is less then to be desired...

The 98.8% overall DR/"FOR" is very consistent with what one would expect for airline like ANA. I don't know how else you could explain the 787's higher "FOR" then the rest of the fleet, If it wasn't a direct comparison in DR.



http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...one-year-of-boeing-787-operations/

Operation Data of Boeing 787 during the year

Flight Numbers

Flight Operation Rate

On-time Departure Rate

Passenger Numbers

Passenger Load Factor

Domestic Routes

8,409

99.3%

94.5%

1,721,951

72.8%

International Routes

565

99.6%

83.6%

74,340

82.6%

Total

8,974

99.3% (98.8%)

93.8% (93.8%)

1,796,291

73.2% (66.4%)

( ) is the average of all ANA flights



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13632 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 70):
Flight Operation Rate = Dispatch Reliability

FOR ≠ DR, by definition.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13560 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 71):
FOR ≠ DR, by definition.

Cute  

But, as intended it does...



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 75
Reply 72, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10841 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 56):
Tell me zeke, is it possible to operate a 787-9 now? I think you are reaching on this one.

Not at all, the comment was made that they were so impressed with the airframe they made a repeat order, they ordered additional 787s, however not a repeat of what they are currently operating. It would be like saying a 737-700 operator was so impressed with the 737-700 they made a repeat order with 737-900s, different models, different capabilities and economics.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 56):

That 96.3% was for One month... For the Whole year 99.3%! Not bad huh?

That is good, however it does not mean it did 99.3 % of the flights it was scheduled to do. They can put an aircraft into maintenance and substitute it with another and it does not change the dispatch reliability.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 56):

Incidently, AF is recently claiming a 97% DR for their A380's.

Yep, and several other airlines say they have gone for months with 100% dispatch reliability, it only tells part of the picture. It does not infer how available an aircraft is over a period of time. An aircraft can be dispatched for 1 flight a month and have a 100% dispatch reliability, and still be the hanger for 29 days unavailable due to maintenance.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 58):
As a matter of fact, RR created their own news bite off of that report, claiming their T-1000 had a 99.9% DR over that period.

Yet we also know that gearbox issues had the fleet grounded for a while. that does not factor into dispatch reliability.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 59):
One could argue with the crack problem that the A380 had the worst EIS since the A320 and the 787 is hardly any better.

The A380 ribs took over 4 years to develop, no one will say that is an EIS issue.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineflyPBA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10764 times:

are these problem 787s all from South Carolina?

User currently offlineworldrider From Switzerland, joined Nov 2007, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9143 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):
Japanese CEOs won't say anything positive if there is an issue.

Yeah they bring in a foreigner to say there's a problem and then fire him for stating the obvious ala Olympus
[/quote]

well.. maybe the 787 is not that foreign to a japanese.. how much of the frame is actually built in Japan??   


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8352 times:

Quoting flyPBA (Reply 73):
are these problem 787s all from South Carolina?

787s from Washington have also faced teething issues.

[Edited 2012-11-25 08:03:21]


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User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9489 posts, RR: 52
Reply 76, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8124 times:

I see some people posting dispatch reliability numbers. I caution anyone against comparing numbers from different sources. Dispatch reliability is actually very hard to calculate. Everyone calculates it differently.

First off, what amount of delay impacts numbers. Some airlines use Delay-0 (airplane not ready at departure time), others use Delay - 15 (15 minute or more delay), others use Arrival - 14 (arrives within 14 minutes of scheduled arrival (DOT standard).

Secondly, what is classified as an airplane delay and what is operational delay? Does a passenger spilling on a seat cushion and causing it to have to be replaced an airplane or operational problem? Does a baggage can hitting the sidewall of the cargo bin and requiring it to be replaced count against the airplane or ramp operations? Each airline does it differently. Airplane interior problems are the most frequent cause of delays due to deferrals and part replacements, so how these are counted makes a big difference.

Thirdly, where are airport operation and weather delays factor in? DOT statistics count weather, airport, etc delay factors in when calculating Arrivals-14 data.

Boeing and Airbus filter data and compare airplane dispatch rates. However again it is hard to compare different airlines.

So be very cautious when you compare the statistics because they are virtually meaningless comparisons.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9489 posts, RR: 52
Reply 77, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8123 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 72):

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 59):
One could argue with the crack problem that the A380 had the worst EIS since the A320 and the 787 is hardly any better.

The A380 ribs took over 4 years to develop, no one will say that is an EIS issue.

The standard warranties that Boeing and Airbus issue cover all defects within 3 years, and any significant design defect that impacts the safety of the airplane. The wing cracks fall under the warranty of the airplane, so I considered them comparable, but I certainly understand someone not considering them EIS. In my opinion Air India is talking about problems under warranty, so that's why I mentioned it.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineBandA From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7896 times:

Quote:
The image has suffered at the hands of functioning aircraft as well...

And we all know that the AI image post 787 was great. Is this their first brand new airplane (and type) purchase?

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):
What you are referencing is our sensationalist press, which takes random comments, often out of context, and makes a massive story out of them.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 18):
Please stop taking these kinds of comments at face value.

Deccan Chronicle's "top aviation sources" are rubbish, if their past claims are any indicator.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):
What you are referencing is our sensationalist press, which takes random comments, often out of context, and makes a massive story out of them.

A.net needs to learn to take our press less seriously.

And if anyone needs any proof of this, just tune-in to any Indian news channels on dish or youtube them.



"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 335 posts, RR: 14
Reply 79, posted (1 year 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 6959 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
If the complaints came from a competent airline, you might have a point.

I am, by no measure, considered an Air India loyalist, but I must point out that AI engineering has always been rated high in terms of their maintenance and capabilities. Commercial strategy wise I agree with you.

Even the cabin crew on a recent flight told me that there are issues that are constantly plaguing the fleet, and this is with Boeing, GE, and other major sub-systems engineers being on duty at Delhi and the other stations.

There some issues affecting the fleet.



I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 75
Reply 80, posted (1 year 8 months 8 hours ago) and read 6537 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 76):
I see some people posting dispatch reliability numbers. I caution anyone against comparing numbers from different sources. Dispatch reliability is actually very hard to calculate. Everyone calculates it differently.

Even the delay codes and times pilots use often do not line up with what ground staff use. They see different sides of the same picture.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 77):
The standard warranties that Boeing and Airbus issue cover all defects within 3 years, and any significant design defect that impacts the safety of the airplane. The wing cracks fall under the warranty of the airplane, so I considered them comparable, but I certainly understand someone not considering them EIS. In my opinion Air India is talking about problems under warranty, so that's why I mentioned it.

Entry into service is also covered in the purchase contract, they are not the same as warranties. Airlines generally have to pay extra for the OEMs people to be made available, and normally they are only provided at their main base. Warranties are not always 3 years, especially for launch customers. The OEMs limit their liability in return for the lower purchase price. A number of A380s were out of their warranty period, Airbus however is covering the cost of the parts and design for all customers, including those out of warranty.

New aircraft types to an airlines are a learning experience for all involved.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3383 posts, RR: 26
Reply 81, posted (1 year 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 5940 times:
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Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 79):
There some issues affecting the fleet.

since you have talked to these people, were the responses just ambiguous problems, or did they have specifics? This is where we're having problems with creditability.. third hand comments without supporting detail.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 82, posted (1 year 8 months ago) and read 5684 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):

A.net needs to learn to take our press less seriously.

Everyone needs to take press worldwide with a bal;anced view...there are very few aviation reporters that know their job.... 



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinegoacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5290 times:

As the article summaries suggest, AI seems to be engaged in a deliberate campaign to attack Boeing in an attempt to cover its own failings. This is not some one off news reporter exaggerating the alleged comments by some junior AI manager.

Dreamliner glitch: AI summons Boeing team
Hindustan Times - ‎Nov 25, 2012‎
Stung by persistent snags in its Boeing 787 Dreamliner fleet, Air India (AI) has summoned a team of Boeing engineers to India ahead of the state-of-the-art aircraft's planned maiden flight in AI's Delhi-London route on December 2. “A team of engineers from Boeing are expected to come to. India shortly ... But the futuristic aircraft, which came after a delay of almost four years, have been plagued by what sources have described as “teething problems”. In one of its first flights from New Delhi to Bangalore in September, ...


Dreamliner fleet: Boeing team inspect snags
Financial Express - ‎Nov 24, 2012‎
New Delhi: A team of Boeing engineers will be here next week to inspect snags in the swanky Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft which Air India is planning to deploy on Delhi-London route from December 2. "The Boeing team is coming to inspect and certify the Dreamliner planes as we ... they said these were "teething problems" which occur in new aircrafts. Even All Nippon Airlines, which was the first airline to take the delivery of the carbon-composite material-made Dreamliner aircraft, faced some problems, they said.


AI summons Boeing brass for poor 787s
The Asian Age - ‎Nov 24, 2012‎
Unhappy with the performance of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner” aircraft due to “recurring technical snags”, a furious civil aviation ministry and Air India have summoned Boeing Corporation's top brass to India, top aviation sources told this newspaper. Sources said of the three Dreamliners received so far, one or the other ... “There were no problems like this when the airline received the Boeing 777s a few years ago,” sources added. Air India had initially deployed the aircraft for important domestic routes ...


Air India summons Boeing brass for poor 787s
Deccan Chronicle - ‎Nov 24, 2012‎
Unhappy with the performance of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner” aircraft due to “recurring technical snags”, a furious civil aviation ministry and Air India have summoned Boeing Corporation's top brass to India, top aviation sources told this newspaper. Sources said of the three Dreamliners received so far, one or the other ... “There were no problems like this when the airline received the Boeing 777s a few years ago,” sources added. Air India had initially deployed the aircraft for important domestic routes ...


AI worried Boeing snags will affect airline image
Deccan Chronicle - ‎Nov 23, 2012‎
Sources said Air India had conveyed to Boeing that the image of the airline could take a severe beating if snags kept occurring. AI's domestic market share has been increasing steadily over the past few months and an ambitious plan of international flight expansion was also worked out earlier. The airline had earlier ordered for a total of 27 Boeing 787 dreamliner aircraft. The delivery ... “There were no problems like this when the airline received the Boeing 777s a few years ago,” sources added. AI had deployed the ...


Ai fumes at boeing over snags in 787
The Asian Age - ‎Nov 23, 2012‎
Unhappy with the performance of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner” aircraft due to “recurring technical snags”, a furious civil aviation ministry and Air India have summoned Boeing Corpora-tion's top brass to India, top aviation sources told this ...



The real issue it seems is that AI does not seem to have qualified pilots to fly these planes. So much for the ridiculous hope that the 787 could somehow save AI!


Instructors leave city, AI pilots left untrained
Hindustan Times
National carrier Air India's plan to operate Boeing 787, the fuel-efficient Dreamliner aircraft, on the Mumbai-London and Delhi-Melbourne-Sydney routes is not likely to take-off this year as pilot training for aircraft stopped abruptly on Wednesday. According to ...
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-F...eft-untrained/Article1-964802.aspx


Meanwhile the feuding between the "guaranteed employment" for life unions continues.

Govt reviews Dreamliner training plan
Times of India - ‎Nov 24, 2012‎
NEW DELHI: On the day TOI reported complete trust deficit between erstwhile Air India and Indian Airlines pilots that has led to IA pilots refusing to get trained on the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner by their AI counterparts, the government acted and set in motion ...
http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...mliner-dgca-indian-airlines-pilots


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 84, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5222 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 6):
Has any airline actually sung the praises of the 787?

A few have, JAL and ANA in particular have commented about its performance and reliability being better than expected.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5101 times:

Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
As the article summaries suggest, AI seems to be engaged in a deliberate campaign to attack Boeing in an attempt to cover its own failings. This is not some one off news reporter exaggerating the alleged comments by some junior AI manager.

AI has requested further support from Boeing after the resources Boeing provided in India could not solve the issues. This is exactly what is supposed to happen. With Boeing's assistance, these teething issues will hopefully be resolved, and life will go on.

As the HT article you quoted mentioned, AI has requested help from a team of Boeing engineers. NOT Boeing's top brass, like the article linked in OP (ridiculously) stated.



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User currently onlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4858 posts, RR: 5
Reply 86, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4963 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 85):
As the HT article you quoted mentioned, AI has requested help from a team of Boeing engineers

Thus Is it reasonable to infer from this that there are no Boeing support persons in India to help AI work through any problems?


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4806 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 86):
Thus Is it reasonable to infer from this that there are no Boeing support persons in India to help AI work through any problems?

No, it is reasonable to infer that the support Boeing has provided in India was not sufficient.

Boeing has stationed a small group to aid in the induction of the new fleet type.



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User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3383 posts, RR: 26
Reply 88, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4517 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
The real issue it seems is that AI does not seem to have qualified pilots to fly these planes. So much for the ridiculous hope that the 787 could somehow save AI!

I seem to recall that this was a major problem resulting from the absorption of the domestic airline by the international and giving training preference to the domestic pilots and subsequent labor issues such as international pilot walkouts..


User currently offlineDrColenzo From UK - Scotland, joined Jan 2012, 138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 89, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4292 times:

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 37):
As usual, any AI topic brings out all the AI bashers on this forum (who seem to be growing in numbers day by day).

Thank you.

I am damn proud of being an Air India basher, or indeed a basher of any poorly run state owned airlines that are interfered with by bureaucrats on a regular basis!!

Let's see what problems Jet Airways has with the 787 when its order starts being delivered in 2015  

Anyone on this forum who knows India well and has spent time in India will realise that it is a country of industrious people waiting to be set free from the bureaucrats laden with inferiority issues about being Indian - being born in India and have the freedom to make the most of oneself in an industrious nation isn't something to ashamed of and held back and it is something to be celebrated. Hence my recollection of a bureaucrat espousing the virtues of the Il86/92* in the early 1990s not because they were any good, but because they were not American and therefore 'better for the nation'...did Air India buy any? Did they hell because they were crap!!! Did the same idiots in Delhi have a pop at the 747-400? Of course they did!!!!!!

Tell you what, if a company like Tata ever gets around to building a 300 seat wide body, maybe powered by indigenous engines and if it works brilliantly, I bet you that politicians in London, Washington or Moscow won't give a toss about BA, United or Aeroflot using the aircraft.

This is not about the 787, it is about Indian politicians and their pet, Air India, which should be sold off and allowed to face the market fairly, then we will see how good it really is  





*(LOOK AT THE TIMES OF INDIA AND SEARCH IN THE 1990S - AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT IS ONLY A RECOLLECTION, BUT I REMEMBER READING THAT NONSENSE IN MY YOUNGER DAYS)


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7050 posts, RR: 8
Reply 90, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4163 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 87):
No, it is reasonable to infer that the support Boeing has provided in India was not sufficient.
Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
Instructors leave city, AI pilots left untrained
Hindustan Times
National carrier Air India's plan to operate Boeing 787, the fuel-efficient Dreamliner aircraft, on the Mumbai-London and Delhi-Melbourne-Sydney routes is not likely to take-off this year as pilot training for aircraft stopped abruptly on Wednesday. According to ...
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-F....aspx

I speculate that the instructors left early because they could not train, not because they did not know how to train.
Th article actually says nothing about what the problem is, other than they will not be able to fly the 787 on their preferred route, it does mention how long the instructors were hired for then goes on to ask why they "let them go" early.
Does the just ended pilot strike and resolutions to be implemented have anything to do with this issue, until the investigative reporters "get in there" and are allowed to publish the facts we can only bash Boeing for a poor a/c or AI for a poorly run airline, in the meantime the truth falls victim.


User currently offlineswallow From Uganda, joined Jul 2007, 554 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4017 times:

Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
The real issue it seems is that AI does not seem to have qualified pilots to fly these planes
Quoting kanban (Reply 88):
I seem to recall that this was a major problem resulting from the absorption of the domestic airline by the international and giving training preference to the domestic pilots

Or is it the other way round; a set of AI pilots has been trained, but IA pilots are lagging behind



The grass is greener where you water it
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12877 posts, RR: 100
Reply 92, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3774 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 89):
Did they hell because they were crap!!! Did the same idiots in Delhi have a pop at the 747-400? Of course they did!!!!!!

Some things never change, which is why AI's complaints are not taken seriously. Now LH on the other hand... The vendors listen. No one denies the chief mechanic at LH his phone time...

Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
that has led to IA pilots refusing to get trained on the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner by their AI counterparts, the government acted and set in motion ...

AI should fly them to Seattle so they may be properly trained. Or wherever has seats.

Quoting swallow (Reply 91):
Or is it the other way round; a set of AI pilots has been trained, but IA pilots are lagging behind

All indications are the AI pilots are trying to prevent the other side from being trained. Childish... but it will continue.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 24
Reply 93, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3720 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):
AI management does not throw public tantrums.

What you are referencing is our sensationalist press, which takes random comments, often out of context, and makes a massive story out of them.

A.net needs to learn to take our press less seriously.

I'd buy that if AI's management and the Indian government hadn't thrown tantrums for months and tried to get the 787s for free....


User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1307 posts, RR: 52
Reply 94, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3651 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 82):
there are very few aviation reporters that know their job....

there are very few .deleted. reporters that know their job

Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
in the swanky Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft
Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner” aircraft
Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
performance of the swanky new Boeing 787 “Dreamliner”

These 3 news reports cause an immediate drop in credibility.
First - why are they calling the a/c 'swanky' - it is strange term.
swanky: expensive and showy; stylish; boastful or conceited

In this context, the term is clearly derogatory. If you take it at its face value - then the question becomes, why is AI wasting money on a "swanky" aircraft.

Second - for this term to show up in 3 articles means it is 1 article running in 3 papers - so it is not a credible emphasis of the problem - it is simply newspapers picking something up off the wire. If it is poor reporting - and it is repeated - that does not make it less 'poor' reporting.

Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
year as pilot training for aircraft stopped abruptly on Wednesday.
Quoting goacom (Reply 83):
pilots refusing to get trained on the new Boeing 78

There is no "Boeing" reason for this - this is pure company politics. No - I can't point to proof, but it is a reasonable surmise based on the data presented.

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 89):
is a country of industrious people waiting to be set free from the bureaucrats laden with inferiority issues about being Indian

Yes - I work with Indian's regularly. Those in professional careers (like a/c) are generally hard working, well educated, ambitious and willing to learn and correct missteps. If there is an issue - they tend to be less than 'faithful' to a company - but hey - no big deal there. Most places where people are trying to advance are like that.

However, they must work 'around' the government and bureaucratic mess. BTW - the ones I work with tend not to be unionized - and we do pay them well.



rcair1
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 90):
I speculate that the instructors left early because they could not train, not because they did not know how to train.

Correct. The 2 pilots unions are being childish and blocking training, so training has been put on hold. Sufficient pilots have been trained for current schedule anyway.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 94):
Second - for this term to show up in 3 articles means it is 1 article running in 3 papers - so it is not a credible emphasis of the problem - it is simply newspapers picking something up off the wire. If it is poor reporting - and it is repeated - that does not make it less 'poor' reporting.

If you notice, goacom cited the same article (on the same website) twice! And the 3rd article is just another paper picking up the first article...

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 94):

There is no "Boeing" reason for this - this is pure company politics.

  



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User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3383 posts, RR: 26
Reply 96, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3266 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

wonder if we looked at "C" series testing days and deliveries and found they correspond to the days the delivered birds didn't fly...

     


User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 411 posts, RR: 4
Reply 97, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3239 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):
Your Boeing bashing is getting tiring.

Well said! Sadly, they won't stop whining...EVER! AI needs to give up flying!

135mech


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