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A321 Popularity And Enhancements  
User currently offlinecjpmaestro From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 87 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 16642 times:

I just noticed on US Airways fact sheet that they now have more A321 aircraft than A320 (75 vs. 72). It wasn't too long ago that all you saw was the A320s and A319s. I believe they have 12 more coming this year and both AA and JetBlue have orders for the A321. I love flying these birds from PHL to PHX, but I wonder what is the cause for the recent popularity of this aircraft?

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2882 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 16602 times:

Well, for B6 I have a feeling it is mostly to be able to deal with the slot-controlled airports that they have significant operations out of. JFK, LGA, EWR, DCA, LGB....they all have slot restrictions so you might as well try to maximize your slot without having to add a completely different fleet type. Bump up the size of the aircraft on some of the high-frequency routes, that causes excess capacity so you can drop a frequency or two which frees a slot or two to add new destinations using the 320's or 190's. I can't speak on behalf of the folks that are weeeeeeeell above me on this totem pole, but that would be my guess.   


"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineLostSound From Canada, joined May 2012, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 16580 times:

My guesses:

-As the economy is regaining itself slowly, the amount of fliers are doing the same. So more capacity is needed.
-More cargo space and passenger capacity then A320 and A319s.
-Replacement of aging 757s they may have.
-The sharklets and NEO variants recently announced bring the A321 a little closer in line with the 757.

And the obvious, it's a wonderful workhorse.  



"Our hands are full, our lives are not"
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7146 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 16545 times:

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 1):
Well, for B6 I have a feeling it is mostly to be able to deal with the slot-controlled airports that they have significant operations out of. JFK, LGA, EWR, DCA, LGB....

I'm inclined to think if they have the version with the improved engines it is mainly to avoid fuel stops on their transcons, whcih depending on the time of the year is an almost daily occurence on the A320's, this year has not been too bad.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13018 posts, RR: 100
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 16517 times:
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Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 1):
I have a feeling it is mostly to be able to deal with the slot-controlled airports that they have significant operations out of. JFK, LGA, EWR, DCA, LGB....they all have slot restrictions so you might as well try to maximize your slot without having to add a completely different fleet type.

Agreed. But its also the CASM. Enough routes have matured to the point where they need more capacity at peak times. Frequency is great, but there are always times that are more popular than others (e.g., first 3 flights LAX-DFW are far more in demand than flight #4 and #5, but that is AA).

Quoting LostSound (Reply 2):
-Replacement of aging 757s they may have.

That will be a huge influence, in particularly with the NEO. The NEO will easily do west coast to Hawaii or Europe to the mid-east. So most (not all) of the 757 market will be replace by the NEO and MAX and mostly with the longest versions. I'm hearing noise about TATL versions too (money is being spent to develop the A321NEO for TATL with US being the most interested customer).

It comes down to low per flight costs (mass produced common parts, high cycle lives of components).

Quoting LostSound (Reply 2):
-The sharklets and NEO variants recently announced bring the A321 a little closer in line with the 757.

And that is the final reason. Every engine improvement of the 737 has increased the 'optimal length' from the 732 to 733 to the 738. I suspect for the max the best selling variant will be the 739 as the NEO it shall be the A321. Not day one, but the near-lack of 737-7MAX and A319 sales shows a trend to longer length airframes.

Note: That won't be true for a new design optimized for a smaller passenger load. The new engines push the optimal length longer due to the improved mission performance.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2882 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 16422 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 3):
I'm inclined to think if they have the version with the improved engines it is mainly to avoid fuel stops on their transcons, whcih depending on the time of the year is an almost daily occurence on the A320's, this year has not been too bad.

The A321's will have the V2500's just like the A320's, just a different thrust rating. The sharklets will help too with efficiency. The A321's will not be NEO's though.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
Agreed. But its also the CASM. Enough routes have matured to the point where they need more capacity at peak times. Frequency is great, but there are always times that are more popular than others (e.g., first 3 flights LAX-DFW are far more in demand than flight #4 and #5, but that is AA).

That's a really good point too, right-sizing the individual frequency.



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlinepacksonflight From Iceland, joined Jan 2010, 379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 16103 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
I'm hearing noise about TATL versions too (money is being spent to develop the A321NEO for TATL with US being the most interested customer).

What is to be expected?
Aerodynamic cleanup or higher weight variant. Or is something being done to increase the fuel load?


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13018 posts, RR: 100
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15796 times:
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Quoting packsonflight (Reply 6):
What is to be expected?
Aerodynamic cleanup or higher weight variant. Or is something being done to increase the fuel load?

All of the above plus an engine PIP. I'm not working the project (hence why I can debate about it), so I won't claim to know the details. But all seems to focus around a MTOW increase for the A321 which would only be done with a greater fuel load.

However, let's be clear. The current A321NEO proposal is *not* TATL capable. Those that I know admit the concept is still at the paper (well... electron) stage. Will it happen? I strongly believe so, but that is but my opinion.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinelegion242 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 15577 times:

Could someone tell this neophyte what TATL is?


Don't make me release the monkeys!!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 15313 times:

Quoting legion242 (Reply 8):
Could someone tell this neophyte what TATL is?

Common abbreviation for "Transatlantic".


User currently offlineaerdingus From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 2827 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 15283 times:

Quoting legion242 (Reply 8):

TATL = Trans Atlantic  



Cabin crew blog http://dolefuldolegirl.blogspot.ie/
User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 15081 times:

Quoting legion242 (Reply 8):
Could someone tell this neophyte what TATL is?

and there is a TPAC too  



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlinelegion242 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14804 times:

Duh. Thanks everyone!!


Don't make me release the monkeys!!
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13018 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14783 times:
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Quoting Jano (Reply 11):
and there is a TPAC too

for Trans-pacific

TCON: Trans-Continental (usually for US coast to coast flights)

Quoting legion242 (Reply 8):

Could someone tell this neophyte what TATL is?

Never hesitate to ask such questions. You will find we also use airline codes (e.g., UA=United Airlines while 6E=Indigo, the #1 domestic airline in India). Those should tell you which airline has which code when you run the mouse over the symbol for airlines (and airports), but not always.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4763 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14758 times:
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If you don't use the underbelly containers for cargo/luggage on an A321 (and I don;t think any N American carrier does) , does the loader need to move each bag manually to the far end of each compartment or is there still some mechanised means of moving them in the compartment? Just seems on a A321/757,739/8 its long way from door to the far end of any compartment!

User currently offlinesancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14442 times:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 14):

If you don't have the tray system that ua uses or the magic carpet that dl has been disabling and removing from 752 and 738, you will usually have 2 in the bin, one to stack and one to throw. The nice thing I found about the 738 and 739 when I worked for Menzies at sea is the curvature of the bin allows for one person to do the offload, although the bags sometimes missed the belt, which was convienent when we were shorthanded.



kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineabbamd From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11965 times:

"If you don't have the tray system that ua uses or the magic carpet that dl has been disabling and removing from 752 and 738, you will usually have 2 in the bin, one to stack and one to throw. The nice thing I found about the 738 and 739 when I worked for Menzies at sea is the curvature of the bin allows for one person to do the offload, although the bags sometimes missed the belt, which was convienent when we were shorthanded."


http://www.industrialmanlifts.com/product/mobile-belt-loader/


I guess this would eliminate the need for Magic Carpets and Ace Cargo Loaders.


User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4763 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11894 times:
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whats the "tray system"?

User currently offlineabbamd From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11805 times:

Its a system similar to this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXbS_npzKEs


User currently onlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11408 times:

I do think with aerodynamic improvements and the new engines for the A320neo Family of planes, the A321 may get a new lease on life as a replacement of 757-200's on medium-range routes up to 3,500 nautical miles still-air range. I'm sure the A321neo could easily fly US transcon flights on a full passenger/cargo load, something that might attract JetBlue (B6) in the near future for flights between SEA/SFO/LAX and JFK.

User currently offlinewomenbeshoppin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10449 times:

US A321s do not have the "magic bins"

User currently offlineSchweigend From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 612 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9950 times:

I've been seeing a lot of US A321s at IAH lately. They used to run 757s here, but I haven't seen one in at least a year or two. US doesn't have a downloadable flight timetable that I could locate, but it appears that their IAH A321s serve CLT, not PHX or PHL.

It's probable in part that US can bring its A321s to IAH because of their *A partner UA's hub there. For comparison, I don't see regularly-scheduled 757s from AA or DL at IAH. (Although I think AA did once fly 757s to IAH from ORD or DFW.)

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
I'm hearing noise about TATL versions too (money is being spent to develop the A321NEO for TATL with US being the most interested customer).

Certainly, UAL would be on that thing like a duck on a junebug!

  
Scottie


User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9848 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):
But all seems to focus around a MTOW increase for the A321 which would only be done with a greater fuel load.

FWIW I don't think they will need much extra MTOW to get the job done either. Depending on wnat needs to be done to the airframe that might add OEW.
If you add in the engine PIP you mention, I reckon about another 5t (to 98t) gets you the range of the heaviest (115t) and youngest 757-200's...

Wonder if they would look at an extended wing, such as the 757 has (relative to the 737)

Rgds


User currently offlinepacksonflight From Iceland, joined Jan 2010, 379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8848 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):
Will it happen? I strongly believe so, but that is but my opinion.

Interesting....

When could we expect to hear something about this A321NEO-S from Airbus, and what can be expected regarding service entry?


User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 753 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8781 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):
But all seems to focus around a MTOW increase for the A321 which would only be done with a greater fuel load.
Quoting astuteman (Reply 22):
I reckon about another 5t (to 98t) gets you the range of the heaviest (115t) and youngest 757-200's...

Wonder if they would look at an extended wing, such as the 757 has (relative to the 737)

How much margin does the current (or Neo) wing have for MTOW increases, I always had the impression that there wasn't much wiggle room left.



Regards,
StickShaker


25 astuteman : That was my impression too. Hence the question. That said, I can't help thinking that if today's wing is lifting 93t, the sharkletted wing might have
26 sancho99504 : I'd take that over the tray or magic carpet anyway. That is what's commonly referred to as the magic carpet. The tray system is almost identical, exc
27 ferpe : The A321 wing is highly loaded, it has a wingloading of 760kg/m2 which is high. It therefore have more advanced flaps then the A320 and 319 to get ac
28 sweair : The A321 is the perfect base for a 757 replacement, but it would need a 777-X sort of update.
29 RickNRoll : Considering the 757 never had much of a market anyway, does it really matter if it's not a perfect base for a 757 replacement.
30 tdscanuck : They sold more than 1000...how is that not a market? Tom.
31 RickNRoll : Badly phrased. It's longevity was relatively short because widebodies and more capable smaller craft took much of the market it had originally away f
32 Viscount724 : The 1,049 757s sold (1,050 built but the first one wasn't sold) also exeeded the 1,010 707s built. Did the 707 also "not have much of a market"?
33 blueshamu330s : The claim by many that there was barely a market for the 757 is a rather moot point in today' world. Time and the aviation model have both moved on s
34 packsonflight : Agreed. But it is not entirely up to Airbus, because a A321NEO+ probably around 98t MTOW, would need a bit bigger engine than the highest thrust rati
35 Pihero : I wouldn't certainly say that : the more advanced wing is on the 320 : it has single slotted trailing edge flaps of a simpler, lighter and more effic
36 clydenairways : No, you can't compare aircraft types from different generations to gauge success, the size of the market sales was completely different. An single or
37 Post contains links and images ferpe : Nice to have a 321 driver chip in, thanks Pihero. That initial FL is my result with a MTOW of 93.5t, what do you start from when you get to initial F
38 Post contains links astuteman : The only question I have is whether Airbus have left the basic tankage alone when re-working the wing for the sharklets. In moving from the 737 class
39 Post contains links and images ferpe : While I think they would like to there seems not to be much room, here the normal tank arrangement for a A321 (from this site http://www.inral.com/At
40 sweair : Comparing the 752 and the A321, how much bigger wings does the 752 have compared?
41 Post contains images lightsaber : First, a thank you to Ferpe on the wing loading numbers. I was being lazier. That I do not know. US is very interested, but Pratt is waiting to see wh
42 Post contains images ferpe : - I've read it more then 5 times and can't still figure it out, well done ...
43 tdscanuck : That was far more a result of relofting the wing than anything to do with adjustment for winglets. A very nice side benefit of supercritical airfoils
44 Post contains images lightsaber : TSFC=Thrust specific fuel consumption. So what you wrote implies the engines will need more fuel for the same thrust at lower altitude. True, but not
45 Post contains images ferpe : Very much so, agree that the frame needs more power lower down, but how do you explain this then? TSFC as a function of FL at cruise M:
46 Pihero : The main difference is the initial conditions : I use everyday data from the CI and only know the econ parameters or the max range ones ( CI = 0 ).Lo
47 Post contains images lightsaber : That is the 'secondary effect.' More of the fuel consumption is just pushing aside heavier air (which an engine must do anyway). It also is trusting
48 AngMoh : The table lists "A380 T800". Shouldn't this be "777 T800"? The "A380 T900" should be somewhere in between of the "GE90-115" and "787 GEnx".
49 ferpe : That is a typo, it should say T900, it is indeed the TSFC for the A380. The data is from PianoX, he has the whole TSFC map (engine deck) in there and
50 ferpe : Thanks, the wingloading then goes to 740 kg/m2. Things then seem to fit as I have initial FL270, middle cruise 310 and highest 330 for a 93.5t versio
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