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New Round Of DL MEM Cuts  
User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 13487 times:

DL will be making another round MEM cuts shortly after the holidays. All told, the number of departures which will fall from 111 to 94 which roughly equates to a 15% decrease in the number of flights. Three destinations will be discontinued and ten more will see frequency reductions (highlighted below). Perhaps the only surprising part is how close in most of these cuts are coming, with the majority taking place starting on 3Jan and a couple starting in mid-February or post Spring Break. Details are as follows:

Destinations being discontinued are: BHM, FLL (effective 8Apr - seasonal perhaps?), and JAX.

Destinations seeing a frequency reduction: BNA, JAN, LAX, LIT, MCI, RDU, SAT, STL, TUL, TYS.

All changes can be verified on delta.com

Source: delta.com

85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 13309 times:

Enter NK? I think MEM is ripe for NK to begin service to DFW.

User currently offlineUALFAson From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 730 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 13293 times:

The FLL and JAX cuts make sense. I can't think of too many places from which it would be more direct to connect through MEM while heading to Florida as opposed to ATL.

With the other reductions, the MEM downsizing becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fewer flights offered, the more attractive it becomes to connect through ATL, which means there's less demand for MEM, which means a further reduction in flights, etc.

Never connected through there, so don't have an opinion on the plusses and minuses, but, like most folks here, can't say any of this is really surprising.



"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
User currently offlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2461 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 13263 times:

There may be fanboys on here for MEM, but quite honestly MEM is RJ land. I would purposely avoid MEM as a connector as at least 50% of the time I would be on a CR2 both in and out of MEM.

I just wish DL would stop the slow bleed of both MEM and CVG and just re-name the airport type as focus city. That way there would be one round of whining and not several.



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1944 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12996 times:

What a slow, painful death. Under 100 flights now. Cuts like BHM are really tough. MEM is a great connecting point for traffic to the north and west of it.

User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12948 times:

I wonder what will happen when WN comes to MEM. WIll DL fight back or will they just continue cuts? What is CVG at now?


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinepremobrimo From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 425 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12741 times:

You better double check FLL. I show it continuing on indefinitely. It keeps the same flight number but switches times.

DL 2311 is bookable through Oct. 10 and beyond.



Now You're Flying Smart.
User currently offlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12689 times:

I'm seeing 93-96 daily departures for MEM in March (except Saturday, which is 20). Most cities are down to 1-2 flights/day, with ATL (9), CVG, DCA, IAH, ORD, CLT, IND, DTW, DFW, LGA, MSP, MSY, SLC and MCO at 3/each.

Mainline departures are 25-26 a day with 16 on Saturday. Mainline is ATL (9x), DTW (2x), FLL (1x), LAS (2x), LAX (1-2x), LGA (2x), MCO (3x), MSP (2x), PHX (1x), SLC (1x), TPA (1x) and CUN (Sat only).


User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12471 times:

Quoting premobrimo (Reply 6):
You better double check FLL. I show it continuing on indefinitely. It keeps the same flight number but switches times.

DL 2311 is bookable through Oct. 10 and beyond.

The flight is not bookable on delta.com after 07Apr. If it was removed in error, it has not yet been fixed.

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 7):
I'm seeing 93-96 daily departures for MEM in March (except Saturday, which is 20). Most cities are down to 1-2 flights/day, with ATL (9), CVG, DCA, IAH, ORD, CLT, IND, DTW, DFW, LGA, MSP, MSY, SLC and MCO at 3/each.

Yes, March peaks out at 96 daily departures but that will fall to 94 in April as MCO is seasonally reduced and FLL is suspended.


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2298 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12274 times:

Quoting xjramper (Reply 3):
There may be fanboys on here for MEM, but quite honestly MEM is RJ land. I would purposely avoid MEM as a connector as at least 50% of the time I would be on a CR2 both in and out of MEM.

I just wish DL would stop the slow bleed of both MEM and CVG and just re-name the airport type as focus city. That way there would be one round of whining and not several.

Wow poor MEM, the misery just keeps on coming. I'll bet a year from now it will just be reduced to spokes and lucky if they have any other cities. I agree though, why now re-classify MEM and CVG as DL focus cities now, that's more of what they are now anyways.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 5):
I wonder what will happen when WN comes to MEM. WIll DL fight back or will they just continue cuts? What is CVG at now?

I think CVG is still around 150 ish flights (could be a little more or less not totally sure, maybe someone on here would have more accurate numbers). CVG is at least in a better standing at this point maintaining over 100 flights and also retaining CDG service. I guess it speaks for the demographics of the population and business community.


User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3826 posts, RR: 33
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12116 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 9):
CVG is at least in a better standing at this point maintaining over 100 flights and also retaining CDG service. I guess it speaks for the demographics of the population and business community.

Oddly enough, though, CVG is showing far fewer total passengers than MEM through September 2012.

MEM - Jan-Sep 2012 - 5,358,962 total passengers source

CVG - Jan-Sep 2012 - 4,636,326 total passengers source

Note: CVG has reported October totals, but MEM hasn't yet. Adding in October totals brings CVG up to 5,151,260 total passengers - still less than MEM had reported through the month of September.

LoneStarMike


User currently offlineDeltaDC8 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11885 times:

According to delta.com they have 118 flights from Cincinnati per day and 45 destinations. The strange thing is that also according to delta.com they have two Skyclubs. To my knowledge we only have one in Concourse B near gate 14.


Clear Skies Above
User currently offlinesampa737 From Brazil, joined May 2005, 637 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11746 times:

I hate this for Memphis. And I'm tired of the whiners, who likely don't even fly. I remember as a kid, in the 70s, when Delta controlled all of concourse A with dozens of flights. Then, Delta pulled back when Republic was formed from the merger of Southern and North Central. Later, Northwest came in and for decades had a nice sized thriving hub. At one point, NWA increased flights, adding a 4th bank of flights. I remember the DC-10s and other aircraft. But, with economies come corrections. It seems like we're headed back to pre-deregulation days where a few point cities are hubs. Now, hang on before you go off on me. I'm a novice, former Memphian. I believe Memphis will rise above this and do well in the future.

User currently offlineSquid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11711 times:

Connecting in MEM was a breeze. I always thought it was a very nice airport to go though. It was never too crowded, and had a few good BBQ places too. I also miss AA's BNA operation. Although ATL is logically a good hub airport, it is so big and crowded, I try to avoid it.

User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11623 times:

Quoting sampa737 (Reply 12):

I hate this for Memphis. And I'm tired of the whiners, who likely don't even fly. I remember as a kid, in the 70s, when Delta controlled all of concourse A with dozens of flights. Then, Delta pulled back when Republic was formed from the merger of Southern and North Central. Later, Northwest came in and for decades had a nice sized thriving hub. At one point, NWA increased flights, adding a 4th bank of flights. I remember the DC-10s and other aircraft. But, with economies come corrections. It seems like we're headed back to pre-deregulation days where a few point cities are hubs. Now, hang on before you go off on me. I'm a novice, former Memphian. I believe Memphis will rise above this and do well in the future.

I feel you 100% man. MEM is my childhood airport. I hate to see it in the shape it is now. I even remember seeing KL's DC-10s there. The last time I was at MEM, the AMS A330 flew over my head. I'm not and Airbus fan, but even seeing an Airbus widebody that wasn't Fedex fly into MEM made me feel good. I hope to see MEM rebound one day and become the hub it used to be.



Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4224 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11572 times:

Quoting xjramper (Reply 3):
There may be fanboys on here for MEM, but quite honestly MEM is RJ land. I would purposely avoid MEM as a connector as at least 50% of the time I would be on a CR2 both in and out of MEM.

I just wish DL would stop the slow bleed of both MEM and CVG and just re-name the airport type as focus city. That way there would be one round of whining and not several.

Death by a thousand paper cuts? I agree.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10274 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 5):

Why would DL fight back if WN shows up given Delta is cutting without WN being there. It doesn't make sense for DL to do an about face and fight WN.


BHM is a painful cut


User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10138 times:

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 7):
with ATL (9), CVG, DCA, IAH, ORD, CLT, IND, DTW, DFW, LGA, MSP, MSY, SLC and MCO at 3/each.

Please add AUS who still survives from this round of cuts.


User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9950 times:

My take...you can't build and maintain a good hub on connecting traffic alone. You have to have O&D. I recently tried to book ORD-MEM (90 minute flight) weeks in advance and was quoted $530. Sorta hard to have healthy local traffic if you price the locals out of the market.

One fella I know from around there got so tired of being shaken down by DL that he switched to using NetJets.


User currently offlineTheGov From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 415 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9711 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 5):
I wonder what will happen when WN comes to MEM

I wouldn't hold my breath about WN when it comes to MEM. I hate to be a naysayer, but I really do not expect anything out of WN. Everyone in MEM who hates DL was excited about the WN takeover of FL. All I have seen or read is more or less, "Just wait and see Delta. Southwest will eat your lunch!" with the latest hopes pinned to the November 19 announcement from WN about upcoming city and route changes and additions. Well, the 11/19 announcement came and went without any mention of MEM. MEM will be on the list next time, they say. Not so much, I say. While WN plays a good word game when it comes to MEM, they are just blowing smoke, as they say around here. If WN was really interested in doing anything with MEM, they would have done it early on in the merger with FL instead of making it their last move.

I, too, grew up with MEM as my home airport. I even worked for DL in MEM. I was there when DL operated a mini-hub in MEM and was there the day the hub operation of Republic began.

So, it is with the greatest of kindness and respect that I say the following: To the people of MEM and to the people who now run DL, please part ways! Delta - please move all your operations to ATL and quit dragging this thing out. You don't want MEM, you don't need MEM and you are only staying to keep those promises you made to the feds when you wanted the merger with NW to be approved. To the people of Memphis, let Delta go. Quit bashing them every time you turn around and get over your perceived self importance of the "international" airport. DL is in business to make money and they have shareholders and employees to answer to. The sooner you let them go, the more quickly the airport will reach its natural equilibrium. It may take a while, but it will happen. And when that happens, I firmly believe that the airport and the community will see better fares, better routes and more innovative air carriers serving the people of MEM.

[Edited 2012-11-25 19:29:35]


Always a pallbearer, never a corpse.
User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 779 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9693 times:

What is keeping DL from finally pulling the plug on MEM and CVG? Is it financial incentives? Politics?

Does SLC have a chance for a build up?


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9630 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 14):
I even remember seeing KL's DC-10s there.

At one time, in the '73-'74 timeframe, you would have seen DL DC-10s or L-1011s, there.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22983 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9553 times:

Quoting TheGov (Reply 19):
Everyone in MEM who hates DL was excited about the WN takeover of FL.

Why wouldn't they be excited about it? Whenever WN cuts it over to WN service, MEM will gain low fare service to a number of large local markets - likely at least BWI, MDW, DEN and HOU. Even if WN doesn't have more than 15 or 20 daily flights, there's still good news for local travelers in MEM.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8778 times:

Quoting TheGov (Reply 19):
While WN plays a good word game when it comes to MEM, they are just blowing smoke, as they say around here.

I'm not sure what you were expecting...to have a WN station the size of BNA by now?


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8768 times:

CVG apparently has hit the proverbial plateau of cuts. Nothing seems to be planned now, or later, but we still have no idea how long we can continue walking straight. MOST of the flights out of CVG these days, according to a gate agent, are overbooked. I was waiting for my flight to ATL-PHX and they actually had to forcibly bump 3 pax from a different flight. Those pax were refunded but something forced the gate agents to bump those 3 pax from that flight...


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9154 times:

Just for the sake of being out-of-the-blue, can a 757 do MEM-AMS?

Now that my random question has been said, what is the next passenger airline, after DL reduces it to a spoke, to have a major presence in MEM?



Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9096 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 25):
Just for the sake of being out-of-the-blue, can a 757 do MEM-AMS?

It's well out of a 757's range, but if MEM was farther north and east, I'm sure this would be a fine a/c for this role. If a 757 was to do a CVG-CDG routing, it would BARELY make it on its range.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinem404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9004 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

How many of these cut cities, except LAX of course, areflown by regional aircfraft? Do the cuts have anything to do with DLs goal of dumping the CRJ200? Has this been accelerated by Pinnacle's bankruptcy?


Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3203 posts, RR: 5
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9059 times:

On a related note:

"Memphis International Airport officials on Thursday approved the airport's first long-term lease agreement that lets airlines surrender terminal space once a year.

Airport Authority officials said airlines didn't want to be tied to long-term commitments for terminal space, and the escape clause could benefit the airport's effort to bring in new passenger service.

Airport president and CEO Larry Cox said Delta Air Lines probably wanted the flexible lease to make it easier to further reduce its hub operation at Memphis. The five-year lease runs through 2017 and is designed to equitably share airfield and terminal expenses among passenger and cargo airlines.
"

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...o-give-delta-air-lines-a-flexible/



FLYi
User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 971 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8353 times:

Regarding CVG vs MEM, I wonder if the economy in CVG is stronger than that of MEM, thus explaining the larger size of the cuts in the latter. It's hard to know what the future will hold, but it simply does not look good. MEM was always known for its "Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner" hub banks. Too bad they've gone away. I just don't see 2x a day from most places sustaining a hub there over the long term, but perhaps I'm wrong. ATL seems fuller than ever to me, even though it is still far from capacity. Perhaps the cutting of MEM could mean more service to MSP/DTW, but doubt it.

User currently offlineTheGov From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 415 posts, RR: 3
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7818 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 23):
I'm not sure what you were expecting...to have a WN station the size of BNA by now?

No. I really don't expect anything more out of WN than a continuation of the 4 daily MEM-ATL flights that FL offers. If there are additional cities or frequencies, as Cubsrule suggest, it wouldn't be more than 15-20.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
Even if WN doesn't have more than 15 or 20 daily flights, there's still good news for local travelers in MEM.

Not to cut down MEM, but the people of MEM have the mindset that they are worthy of non-stops to a number of cities and therefore like to complain about making connections. In addition, I don't know how they will treat WN when MEM is added to their network. Sure, WN doesn't charge for every little thing like the legacy carriers do, but their fares are not as low as the once were. It may take a while, but WN will discover, as DL has, that the O/D traffic in MEM is weak. How good of news it will be remains to be seen. If you truly want a low fare carrier, Spirit and Allegiant are the ones to hope for.



Always a pallbearer, never a corpse.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22983 posts, RR: 20
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7432 times:

Quoting TheGov (Reply 30):
Sure, WN doesn't charge for every little thing like the legacy carriers do, but their fares are not as low as the once were.

. . . but still well lower than what DL wants to a place like Chicago. DL wants $1,100 for a day trip to Chicago tomorrow. WN wants $512 for a day trip to BNA. That's only one data point, but it's pretty consistent with the fare spread between the two.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinebhmdiversion From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 460 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7052 times:

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 17):
Please add AUS who still survives from this round of cuts.

Pinnacle will keep this route to get an aircraft to AUS MX.


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1627 posts, RR: 6
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7029 times:

Quoting Squid (Reply 13):
Connecting in MEM was a breeze. I always thought it was a very nice airport to go though. It was never too crowded, and had a few good BBQ places too. I also miss AA's BNA operation. Although ATL is logically a good hub airport, it is so big and crowded, I try to avoid it.

Boy did you get that right about the BBQ places! On trips into MEM the crew would decide which place to go to for either a sit down lunch/dinner or a "grab and go." There is one place that has a walk-up window that is VERY popular with the employees.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5432 posts, RR: 7
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6704 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 33):
Connecting in MEM was a breeze. I always thought it was a very nice airport to go though. It was never too crowded, and had a few good BBQ places too. I also miss AA's BNA operation.

All the small hubs are/were good places. We'll miss them when they're gone.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3072 posts, RR: 7
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6609 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 34):
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 33):
Connecting in MEM was a breeze. I always thought it was a very nice airport to go though. It was never too crowded, and had a few good BBQ places too. I also miss AA's BNA operation.

All the small hubs are/were good places. We'll miss them when they're gone.

I agree on this one. I flew SEA-DFW-ICT several times on AA for business in the early 2000s. One time my ICT-DFW flight was cancelled due to ice storms in DFW. So AA rerouted me through STL and I got home at almost the same time. In fact, I enjoyed that routing so much that I asked to be booked SEA-STL-ICT on subsequent ICT trips. STL was a breeze.

Of course if that happened again, I'd probably be delayed a long time rather than just an efficient rerouting, since AA has gutted STL.

Likewise, I flew VPS-MEM-SEA two years ago on DL and thought it was way better than ATL.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6445 times:

It will be sad to see the smaller city hubs be fazed out! The bright spot CLE really seems to be beating the "odds". Lets hope CLE can keep it going the RJs seem to be around for a while lets hope CLE can keep it rocking for many years to come!

User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6073 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 35):
Of course if that happened again, I'd probably be delayed a long time rather than just an efficient rerouting, since AA has gutted STL.

You'd be delayed a very long time or need an additional stop - there is no non-stop service between STL and ICT today.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3072 posts, RR: 7
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5877 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 37):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 35):
Of course if that happened again, I'd probably be delayed a long time rather than just an efficient rerouting, since AA has gutted STL.

You'd be delayed a very long time or need an additional stop - there is no non-stop service between STL and ICT today.

That was exactly my point. I'd be stuck in DFW if that happened again. I think you misunderstood my statement.


User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5854 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 38):
That was exactly my point. I'd be stuck in DFW if that happened again. I think you misunderstood my statement.

Indeed I did. My apologies.


User currently offlineEXMEMWIDGET From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5837 times:

Quoting TheGov (Reply 19):
I wouldn't hold my breath about WN when it comes to MEM. I hate to be a naysayer, but I really do not expect anything out of WN. Everyone in MEM who hates DL was excited about the WN takeover of FL. All I have seen or read is more or less, "Just wait and see Delta. Southwest will eat your lunch!" with the latest hopes pinned to the November 19 announcement from WN about upcoming city and route changes and additions. Well, the 11/19 announcement came and went without any mention of MEM. MEM will be on the list next time, they say. Not so much, I say. While WN plays a good word game when it comes to MEM, they are just blowing smoke, as they say around here. If WN was really interested in doing anything with MEM, they would have done it early on in the merger with FL instead of making it their last move.

I, too, grew up with MEM as my home airport. I even worked for DL in MEM. I was there when DL operated a mini-hub in MEM and was there the day the hub operation of Republic began.

So, it is with the greatest of kindness and respect that I say the following: To the people of MEM and to the people who now run DL, please part ways! Delta - please move all your operations to ATL and quit dragging this thing out. You don't want MEM, you don't need MEM and you are only staying to keep those promises you made to the feds when you wanted the merger with NW to be approved. To the people of Memphis, let Delta go. Quit bashing them every time you turn around and get over your perceived self importance of the "international" airport. DL is in business to make money and they have shareholders and employees to answer to. The sooner you let them go, the more quickly the airport will reach its natural equilibrium. It may take a while, but it will happen. And when that happens, I firmly believe that the airport and the community will see better fares, better routes and more innovative air carriers serving the people of MEM.

I couldn't agree more. MEM has seen more than it's fare share of hubs, mini hubs and focus cities rise up and crash back down. I have been part of two of them with DL and NW. I think MEM's biggest problem will always be it's O&D issue and I don't see it as ever improving much at all. I am sure that SW and a few other airlines might make their way to MEM at some point, but MEM is just not nor ever will be a hub for any airline in the future. That is unless you are a box.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7164 posts, RR: 13
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5782 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 28):

On a related note:

"Memphis International Airport officials on Thursday approved the airport's first long-term lease agreement that lets airlines surrender terminal space once a year.

Airport Authority officials said airlines didn't want to be tied to long-term commitments for terminal space, and the escape clause could benefit the airport's effort to bring in new passenger service.

Airport president and CEO Larry Cox said Delta Air Lines probably wanted the flexible lease to make it easier to further reduce its hub operation at Memphis. The five-year lease runs through 2017 and is designed to equitably share airfield and terminal expenses among passenger and cargo airlines."

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...ible/

They should never have agreed to this. What is the airport going to do with all that space? They should have forced DL to pay for it. Are they actually thinking they will get a new hub? Keep dreaming...


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22983 posts, RR: 20
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5755 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 41):
What is the airport going to do with all that space?

Shutter it, I expect. At this point, all carriers should be able to fit on Concourse B.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7164 posts, RR: 13
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5689 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 42):
Quoting enilria (Reply 41):
What is the airport going to do with all that space?

Shutter it, I expect. At this point, all carriers should be able to fit on Concourse B.

That won't save much.


Does this article mean that now rather than post article links as proof we can just link to our own post as proof...
"according to an airliners.net forum."
http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/b...reparing-for-more-flight-cuts.html


User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5666 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 41):
They should never have agreed to this. What is the airport going to do with all that space? They should have forced DL to pay for it. Are they actually thinking they will get a new hub? Keep dreaming...

How exactly would they force DL to pay? If the airport attempted to force them into long-term leases, DL could respond by de-hubbing right away and reduce their ops to a handful of gates.

[Edited 2012-11-26 10:45:06]

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8528 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5631 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 43):
Does this article mean that now rather than post article links as proof we can just link to our own post as proof...

IIRC this thread is a factual summary of publicly known schedule changes. These days it can all be seen with online booking. There should not be any mystery to it.


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2091 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5521 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 18):
I recently tried to book ORD-MEM (90 minute flight) weeks in advance and was quoted $530. Sorta hard to have healthy local traffic if you price the locals out of the market.

DL and UA both have r/t fares for $212 on that route. It just depends on the day. If DL cannot get fares up to $530 at times, then they really do need to cut flights to keep yields up. UA is willing to take a hit out of ORD to attract business because they are absolutely committed to one of their main hubs. DL at MEM is redundant and needs to scale down to demand. When the merger was speculated, it was anticipated that CVG and MEM were toast. That is probably still true. Like STL, it will not happen overnight but they will shrink to a sustainable level.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7164 posts, RR: 13
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5495 times:

Quoting michman (Reply 44):
How exactly would they force DL to pay? If the airport attempted to force them into long-term leases, DL could respond by de-hubbing right away and reduce their ops to a handful of gates.

I didn't realize that MEM had not had a lease with Delta for 3 years. That should have been a pretty powerful hint to what was coming.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 45):
Quoting enilria (Reply 43):
Does this article mean that now rather than post article links as proof we can just link to our own post as proof...

IIRC this thread is a factual summary of publicly known schedule changes. These days it can all be seen with online booking. There should not be any mystery to it.

It's just rare you see us listed as a source by "reputable" news organizations.  


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5438 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 47):

I didn't realize that MEM had not had a lease with Delta for 3 years. That should have been a pretty powerful hint to what was coming.

Yeah definintely.

Delta is already stucking paying CVG a ton of money for gates it doesnt want. Since they are paying for those gates i think flying a decent offering at CVG is the way to loose the least amount of money. Those lease payments gotta go thru so you mine as well use some of the gates


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7164 posts, RR: 13
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5403 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 48):
Delta is already stucking paying CVG a ton of money for gates it doesnt want. Since they are paying for those gates i think flying a decent offering at CVG is the way to loose the least amount of money. Those lease payments gotta go thru so you mine as well use some of the gates

I think we know a few things. There are more CRJs to go and at some point CVG will get hit again, but it appears pretty clear that MEM is worse than CVG. I expect MEM to be at less than 20 RTs by 2014.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5382 times:

Quoting TheGov (Reply 30):
No. I really don't expect anything more out of WN than a continuation of the 4 daily MEM-ATL flights that FL offers. If there are additional cities or frequencies, as Cubsrule suggest, it wouldn't be more than 15-20.

Then you are probably in for a surprise. I do not expect more then 15 flights in fact I expect a maximum of 10-12 flights. But there will be much more then ATL if ATL is even continued.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7584 posts, RR: 27
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5332 times:

Does this surprise anyone? No.
Are the flights warrented based on MEM O&D? No.
Can the incremental capacity lost on a route like MEM-TYS be absorbed over other hubs? Yes.

Most people are not surprised by this, it was only a matter of time as the 50 seaters start to come out of the network. With DL keeping overall capacity flat or down, no surprise these routes are going to start to disappear.

People get up in arms, but the cold facts are that MEM cannot and does not need to support a hub with ATL in the same network in such close proximity. The lost of a route like MEM-TYS (3 CRJs 150 seats) can easily be made up by bumping-up 2-3 ATL flights from CRJ/CR7s to DC-9s or MD-88s.

This is a business-driven decision. MEM cannot just go an tell DL to go away (seriously why would an airport just tell one of its major tenants to leave????) On the converse, why should DL just "pull the plug"? If DL can still profitably fly or execute an orderly wind-down of operations at MEM, why should they not continue to so.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7520 posts, RR: 23
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 36):
It will be sad to see the smaller city hubs be fazed out! The bright spot CLE really seems to be beating the "odds". Lets hope CLE can keep it going the RJs seem to be around for a while lets hope CLE can keep it rocking for many years to come!

Personal prediction: in 2 years time, CLE will likely be where where CVG and/or MEM are today in terms of an airline hub.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 51):
Does this surprise anyone? No.
Are the flights warrented based on MEM O&D? No.
Can the incremental capacity lost on a route like MEM-TYS be absorbed over other hubs? Yes.

Most people are not surprised by this, it was only a matter of time as the 50 seaters start to come out of the network. With DL keeping overall capacity flat or down, no surprise these routes are going to start to disappear.

People get up in arms, but the cold facts are that MEM cannot and does not need to support a hub with ATL in the same network in such close proximity. The lost of a route like MEM-TYS (3 CRJs 150 seats) can easily be made up by bumping-up 2-3 ATL flights from CRJ/CR7s to DC-9s or MD-88s.

This is a business-driven decision. MEM cannot just go an tell DL to go away (seriously why would an airport just tell one of its major tenants to leave????) On the converse, why should DL just "pull the plug"? If DL can still profitably fly or execute an orderly wind-down of operations at MEM, why should they not continue to so.

                             

And I will had 3 simple words to all this:

Mergers Have Consequences!



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5010 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 52):

People on a.nut have been predicting the demise of CLE for decades now with little success. Problem is, CLE, CVG and MEM all serve very different markets so the idea that all of them will suffer the same fate is kind of strange to me.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7584 posts, RR: 27
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5019 times:

Mergers have consequences - agreed.

However, thinking that nothing would've happened and MEM would be peachy-keen had NW not merged with DL. The facts are still the same - the domestic economy has experienced limited growth, the cost of fuel is mucher higher than it was 5 years ago, MEM still would have low O&D, and 50 seat RJ economics would be questionable on longer stage length routes.

NW would have likely had to take a long, hard look at MEM at this point in time had they not merged with DL. Its naive to think that NW would be able to sustain this hub at the cost structure of 50 seat RJs, with limited network prescense in the Southeast. This does not even consider how other mergers may or may not have happened.

Would an independent NW be healthy today is even a question, let alone the fate of MEM.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8265 posts, RR: 23
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4991 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 52):
in 2 years time, CLE will likely be where where CVG and/or MEM are today in terms of an airline hub.

LOL dude, do you know how many times I heard that exact thing 2 years ago? And 2 years before that?

Hack.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineSevensixtyseven From United States of America, joined May 2011, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4623 times:

Fortunately, MEM will (hopefully) never be in a position like STL and CVG...with reductions, come more expenses for what remains...then the current airlines cut more due to it being more expensive...which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for them.

Let's all remember Memphis has FedEx, which will need more expansion to move their packages to and from all corners of the earth...in other words..MEM will always be a hub....a cargo hub. Thus it won't get too expensive as far as operating costs.



Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1924 posts, RR: 21
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4545 times:

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 56):
Fortunately, MEM will (hopefully) never be in a position like STL and CVG...with reductions, come more expenses for what remains...then the current airlines cut more due to it being more expensive...which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for them.

Not quite, STL has been backfilled quite well by WN and has seen additions from AS and UA, not seeing the self-fulfilling prophecy there. Same for CVG whose cost per enplaned passenger is about 1/3 less expensive than STL and has the growing DHL cargo hub.


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4331 times:

Quoting PHLBOS:
Personal prediction: in 2 years time, CLE will likely be where where CVG and/or MEM are today in terms of an airline hub.

Why? CLE is a bigger market than the two--if UA were to pull out, they'd only be losing money to a competitor. Its also one of the highest yield airports around. Can't find the exact numbers right now. But for pax loads:

For DOMESTIC flights, (12-months ending July 2012): pax levels (arriving + departing)

CLE - 8.5 m
CVG - 6.0 m
MEM - 7.6m

for INT'L O&D, CLE is bigger as well - for 2011:

CLE - 573,000
CVG - 508,000
MEM - 288,000

CLE is an important city for UA and will remain so, particularly as, after years of decline/stagnation in the city overall, the local economy there is really picking up.


User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 56):
Fortunately, MEM will (hopefully) never be in a position like STL and CVG...with reductions, come more expenses for what remains...then the current airlines cut more due to it being more expensive...which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for them.

Let's all remember Memphis has FedEx, which will need more expansion to move their packages to and from all corners of the earth...in other words..MEM will always be a hub....a cargo hub. Thus it won't get too expensive as far as operating costs.

While everyone seems to agree that STL has landing fee issues, CVG seems to be pretty much middle of pack in that regard. CVG's PFC rate is also lower than almost all other major airports ($3.00 vs. $4.50). Of course, MEM's low landing fees and $0 PFC rate haven't done anything to stem flight loses or bring in much in the way of new competition. I'd say it's pretty clear that airport costs aren't as large of a factor as many seem to think.

While MEM will be a major cargo hub for many years to come, FedEx has recently stated that it will be shifting more resources from it's air delivery business to the ground delivery business as it's customers continue to demand more cost efficient delivery. I wouldn't count on any expansion in the air cargo hub for a number of years.

[Edited 2012-11-27 05:11:28]

[Edited 2012-11-27 05:11:52]

User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3826 posts, RR: 33
Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4250 times:

Quoting michman (Reply 59):
CVG's PFC rate is also lower than almost all other major airports ($3.00 vs. $4.50).

Isn't MEM one of the few major airports that doesn't charge a PFC at all?

LoneStarMike


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3468 posts, RR: 5
Reply 61, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 57):

Not quite, STL has been backfilled quite well by WN and has seen additions from AS and UA, not seeing the self-fulfilling prophecy there. Same for CVG whose cost per enplaned passenger is about 1/3 less expensive than STL and has the growing DHL cargo hub.

They have?

I just watched Trains, Plains, and Automobile yesterday. Watch the movie and take a look at Lambert Airport in the 80s.

Then tell me if you think that STL, with empty gates everywhere, has backfilled "quite well"

STL is a mess, PIT is a mess, CVG, is a growing mess.

Huge terminals, huge airfields...all empty. Quite sad


User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4250 times:

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 60):
Isn't MEM one of the few major airports that doesn't charge a PFC at all?

Yes, that's why I said "almost all". Of course, there may be some debate over whether MEM still qualifies as a "major" airport. There are a small handful of airports that charge the $3.00 PFC like CVG, but I don't remember them off the top of my head. Most charge the max $4.50 rate.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22983 posts, RR: 20
Reply 63, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4197 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 61):
Then tell me if you think that STL, with empty gates everywhere, has backfilled "quite well"

For local passengers, it has. No local passenger misses the flights to SGF, LAF and SPI, and local passengers don't need things like two carriers to CLT or ATL; one does just fine.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7164 posts, RR: 13
Reply 64, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4148 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 51):
Are the flights warrented based on MEM O&D? No.

How many flights from MEM are warranted based on the O&D?

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 51):
Most people are not surprised by this
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 52):
Personal prediction: in 2 years time, CLE will likely be where where CVG and/or MEM are today in terms of an airline hub.
Quoting greenair727 (Reply 58):
Why? CLE is a bigger market than the two

CLE is next. I think WN and fuel hold the key there. As long as they keep focused on CAK, it helps UA keep CLE going. I think it makes little sense for WN to be in both airports. Also, if fuel increases UA will go after CLE before anything else.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 52):
Mergers Have Consequences!

Every merger goes like this:

Merger announcement: "Everything is going to be fine. No layoffs. No major changes. We bought to learn about the markets of the other carrier".

Merger approved: "We will begin looking for areas of synergy between the two companies. No major changes expected."

6 months later: "Due to (oil/terrorism/war/pandemic/demise of the Twinkie) we will re-evaluating the combined company and some operations will be right-sized. All affected employees will be offered jobs in our other subsidiary, Most Happy Chinese Bovine Slaughtering Company."

1 year later: "Despite our best efforts, performance of the acquired assets have been under expectations and in order to continue forward as a global leader in our business segment, we need to make some painful decisions. First, I will be taking a large bonus to buy a beach house and second, all employees who joined the company through merger will be offered jobs at LCHSWNHC (Large Company Handling Subsidiary With No Healthcare Corporation). Employees may re-interview and retain 25% of their pay and a shred of their dignity."

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 54):
However, thinking that nothing would've happened and MEM would be peachy-keen had NW not merged with DL. The facts are still the same

Well, you just got through saying that MEM is going away because of its proximity to DL's ATL hub, so you are kind of having it both ways. Absent a merger, I'm not sure NW would have had a choice but to keep MEM for geographic coverage. They probably would have kept filing Ch11 until it was profitable.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 60):
Quoting michman (Reply 59):
CVG's PFC rate is also lower than almost all other major airports ($3.00 vs. $4.50).

Isn't MEM one of the few major airports that doesn't charge a PFC at all?

MEM was, in fact, probably the lowest cost hub in the country. Absolute proof that revenue is far more important than airport cost. I remember reading thread after thread about how MEM was successful because the cost was low. Airport cost is 5-10% of revenue. Revenue is 100% of revenue.  


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5432 posts, RR: 7
Reply 65, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4025 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 64):
As long as they keep focused on CAK, it helps UA keep CLE going. I think it makes little sense for WN to be in both airports.

CAK's recent growth has not come totally at CLE's expense. It's getting a good bit of the growing Utica Shale gas/oil business. Chesapeake Energy's northeast hqs is just a shout away.

I can see WN doing nicely in both locations, with an emphasis on CAK.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8265 posts, RR: 23
Reply 66, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3976 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 64):
Also, if fuel increases UA will go after CLE before anything else.

If fuel increases too much, UA has a lot more to worry about than just Cleveland.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7164 posts, RR: 13
Reply 67, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3967 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 65):
I can see WN doing nicely in both locations, with an emphasis on CAK.

The question was whether a split strategy helps UA and i think it clearly does.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 66):
If fuel increases too much, UA has a lot more to worry about than just Cleveland.

The are more hedged than most with a hub in IAH.  


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7520 posts, RR: 23
Reply 68, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3939 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 58):
Quoting PHLBOS:
Personal prediction: in 2 years time, CLE will likely be where where CVG and/or MEM are today in terms of an airline hub.

Why? CLE is a bigger market than the two--if UA were to pull out, they'd only be losing money to a competitor. Its also one of the highest yield airports around.

Yes, but due to it relatively close proximity to ORD (a much larger UA hub); should push come to shove and one of the hubs has to be eliminated to reduce operating costs. Granted, pre-merger; CO's CLE hub is also within reasonable proximity to its EWR hub but its (CLE) very existence as a hub was warranted because of it being further inland AND (later on) EWR slot restrictions.

Now with ORD in the carrier-hub mix, courtesy of the merger; CLE, as a hub is now somewhat redundant and overlapped between EWR & ORD.

Let's be clear here, not every major city airport is necessarily a hub for a particular carrier. If demand for airline service at a particular airport indeed exists and one carrier can't nor won't provide such; there's no law stating that another carrier can't come in and offer the same service.

Not only is an airline hub for a major city airport not a birthright; there's no law that states that most or all service to said-airport has to be handled by only one carrier.

Remember this merger, along w/most other airline mergers are consolidation-driven/motivated and not expansion-driven/motivated; contrary to popular belief and the various and sundry press reports.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 55):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 52):
in 2 years time, CLE will likely be where where CVG and/or MEM are today in terms of an airline hub.

LOL dude, do you know how many times I heard that exact thing 2 years ago? And 2 years before that?

The UA-CO merger only became reality roughly 2 years ago. Any rumors you heard of the demise of the CLE hub prior to that point were likley based on what if merger scenarios. No that the merger indeed happened; the rumor could very well become reality this time around.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineJohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1659 posts, RR: 2
Reply 69, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

The Memphis Commercial Appeal newspaper has a "fact-checking" column whereby they investigate the truth of statements made by local politicians. Rep. Steve Cohen from Memphis is on a a tear now about what Delta promised vs. what they've delivered, and was the topic of such a column recently:

http://www.politifact.com/tennessee/...ses-memphis-says-congressman-cohe/


User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3850 times:

Quoting JohnJ (Reply 69):

The Memphis Commercial Appeal newspaper has a "fact-checking" column whereby they investigate the truth of statements made by local politicians. Rep. Steve Cohen from Memphis is on a a tear now about what Delta promised vs. what they've delivered, and was the topic of such a column recently:

Sorry, but this article reeks of BS. Because DL said in 2008 they wouldn't cut AMS, now in 2012, when economic conditions are vastly different, they're still not allowed to?

Sorry MEM, it sucks to see service go, but DL is a business, and the first rule of business is making $$$. You don't positively contribute to the bottom line? See you later, alligator.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 71, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3832 times:

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 70):
Sorry MEM, it sucks to see service go, but DL is a business, and the first rule of business is making $$$. You don't positively contribute to the bottom line? See you later, alligator.

Makes you wonder if they complained about the cuts that FedEx has said it will make.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5432 posts, RR: 7
Reply 72, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3796 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 65):
I can see WN doing nicely in both locations, with an emphasis on CAK.

The question was whether a split strategy helps UA and i think it clearly does.

But your assertion was:

Quoting enilria (Reply 64):
I think it makes little sense for WN to be in both airports.

And I'm saying they can make money in both places, keeping perhaps a larger presence in CAK.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1924 posts, RR: 21
Reply 73, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3764 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 61):
They have?

I'd say 100 daily WN flights in addition to the operations of all other carriers at the airport serves the city of St. Louis VERY well indeed. STL still boasts significantly more mainline flights than some others which are still legacy hubs, nothing to sneeze about IMO.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 61):
Then tell me if you think that STL, with empty gates everywhere, has backfilled "quite well"

Empty gates or not, I'd be willing to bet that local O&D traffic at STL is near or higher than it was during the hub day. Sorry if your still missing the BAe Jetstream flights to JLN and PUH, but most in St. Louis couldn't care less.


User currently offlineJohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1659 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3762 times:

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 70):
Sorry MEM, it sucks to see service go, but DL is a business, and the first rule of business is making $$$. You don't positively contribute to the bottom line? See you later, alligator.

I'm sure Delta knew well in advance of the merger how much the MEM hub would contribute to the bottom line, and still continued to tout how well they'd treat the city if only the merger were allowed to go through. Of course it would have hurt their merger chances, but I think people would be less peeved if they'd been more honest about their intentions for their lesser hubs.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 75, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3760 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 73):
but most in St. Louis couldn't care less.

Typical of most urban areas  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3743 times:

Quoting JohnJ (Reply 74):
I'm sure Delta knew well in advance of the merger how much the MEM hub would contribute to the bottom line, and still continued to tout how well they'd treat the city if only the merger were allowed to go through.

I think they had a better idea of MEM revenues in late-2008/2009 when fuel was much cheaper. Just because the hub made money then doesn't mean it does in today's economic climate.

http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/economi...nitor/pages/price_development.aspx


User currently offlineJohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1659 posts, RR: 2
Reply 77, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3716 times:

It would take a lot of convincing to get me to believe Delta ever intended to keep the Memphis hub long term. And still they keep with the spin - from today's Commercial Appea article on the upcoming cuts, quote by Delta spokesman Anthony Black:

Despite the cuts, Memphis is still important to Delta as a hub, Black said. Delta flies to 47 destinations from the airport here, he said, compared to 18 from Boston and 56 from LaGuardia Airport in New York City.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...lans-additional-cuts-service-memp/


User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3826 posts, RR: 33
Reply 78, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 10):
Oddly enough, though, CVG is showing far fewer total passengers than MEM through September 2012.

MEM - Jan-Sep 2012 - 5,358,962 total passengers source

CVG - Jan-Sep 2012 - 4,636,326 total passengers source

Note: CVG has reported October totals, but MEM hasn't yet. Adding in October totals brings CVG up to 5,151,260 total passengers - still less than MEM had reported through the month of September.

MEM has now reported October traffic. YTD, MEM has had 5,876,845 passengers through Oct, compared to 5,151,260 for CVG.

LoneStarMike


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8265 posts, RR: 23
Reply 79, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3578 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 68):
the rumor could very well become reality this time around.

What time around? The rumor was "when UA/CO merge, CLE will close." UA/CO merged 2 years ago, CLE stayed open. Then the rumor was "2 years after UA/CO merge, CLE will close." Here we are coming up on 2 years, and CLE is still open. NOW the rumor is 2 years from now? How many times can people be wrong and still think they're right?



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User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1568 posts, RR: 4
Reply 80, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3222 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 68):
The UA-CO merger only became reality roughly 2 years ago. Any rumors you heard of the demise of the CLE hub prior to that point were likley based on what if merger scenarios. No that the merger indeed happened; the rumor could very well become reality this time around.

Every bump in CO's road for years was the signal to some that Cleveland was doomed. And yet, here we are... Cleveland is still a hub. Smaller than the rest, yes. More vulnerable, yes. But it's always been that way.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 79):
What time around? The rumor was "when UA/CO merge, CLE will close." UA/CO merged 2 years ago, CLE stayed open. Then the rumor was "2 years after UA/CO merge, CLE will close." Here we are coming up on 2 years, and CLE is still open. NOW the rumor is 2 years from now? How many times can people be wrong and still think they're right?

And before that it was the skyrocketing fuel prices... And before that it was Cleveland's "dying" economy...

Obviously, CLE will never be an IAH or ORD... but as long as UA can make money using CLE as a small hub, they will. And everyone who lives in or around CLE knows that. They also know that the situation in Cleveland is not so bleak as once-a-year visitors and people who've passed through once (ten years ago) want to claim it is.



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User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7164 posts, RR: 13
Reply 81, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3037 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 72):
Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 65):
I can see WN doing nicely in both locations, with an emphasis on CAK.

The question was whether a split strategy helps UA and i think it clearly does.

But your assertion was:

Quoting enilria (Reply 64):
I think it makes little sense for WN to be in both airports.

And I'm saying they can make money in both places, keeping perhaps a larger presence in CAK.

They'd make much more money if UA closed their hub and consolidating at CLE is probably more likely to make that happen. IMHO, WN does fairly poorly at CLE. I think that's pretty obvious from the schedule trajectory. FL did very well in CAK. I guess then I'd say for short term profits they should move everything to CAK, but for long term profits they should move everything to CLE and try to finish off UA.


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 892 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Here is a neutral analysis of Delta's developments at MEM by Australian CAPA:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...-as-delta-culls-more-service-90018


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5432 posts, RR: 7
Reply 83, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2985 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 81):
I guess then I'd say for short term profits they should move everything to CAK, but for long term profits they should move everything to CLE and try to finish off UA.

Ok, I'll agree with that, but I doubt WN would actively attempt to "finish off" UA in CLE. The conquest would be too expensive for what they would get. They'll watch and wait, which won't cost them anything.

Edit: They probably won't have to wait too long. The scope provisions of UA's TA with the pilots are not good news for CLE.

[Edited 2012-11-29 09:43:00]


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User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 78):
MEM has now reported October traffic. YTD, MEM has had 5,876,845 passengers through Oct, compared to 5,151,260 for CVG.

Note that MEM and CVG were roughly equal in the month of October - 517,833 vs. 514,934. With the upcoming MEM cuts, CVG will no doubt overtake it in pax numbers.


User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9205 posts, RR: 20
Reply 85, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2775 times:

Wow... Under 100 daily departures for DL at MEM, and DL still calls that a hub? US was down to 110 daily departures at one point at PIT, and they called that operation a focus city. Heck, it was dropped from hub status I think when the departures dropped to 200 or 220 if I'm not mistaken. Still, I'd have to agree that with under 100 departures you really no longer have a full-fledged hub, but a rather big focus city operation.

Now, regarding this talk about CLE being next, I have to agree with those who think it will still "tough it out." CLE's economy does seem to be picking up and the drilling with the Marcellus (and Utica, in particular) shale nearby. They are tweaking the schedule here and there, but overall its level of service has been rather unchanged...

I wish the same thing could've been said about PIT, but that's a whole other ball of wax that has been visited far too often. This isn't the place for that!   



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