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QF Business Class New Workspace.  
User currently offlinetrent1000 From Japan, joined Jan 2007, 558 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7930 times:

As the title says: Fantastic or fail? I vote for the latter...
http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/f...space/story-e6frfq80-1226524287711

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2960 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7833 times:

This isn't new -- two QF aircraft and three JQ aircraft (with the middle seat open) have been flying with this product for a couple of years. I travelled in J on one of these aircraft on a MEL-SYD sector last June, and thought the product was overall better than the older configuration.

I can only assume that QF plans to eventually open up the middle seat across the fleet once the 767s are gone. It strikes me as rather stupid to spend the money on the extra seat rather than wider armrests unless they plan to generate revenue using it in the future.

That said, flyers were extremely vocally negative when the 2-3-2 layout first started flying in 2010 (which is what promoted them too fit the plastic contraption). With VA flying a really strong product I don't think it's a viable way forward...

But this article is just media beat up...


User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7551 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):
I can only assume that QF plans to eventually open up the middle seat across the fleet once the 767s are gone. It strikes me as rather stupid to spend the money on the extra seat rather than wider armrests unless they plan to generate revenue using it in the future.

That said, flyers were extremely vocally negative when the 2-3-2 layout first started flying in 2010 (which is what promoted them too fit the plastic contraption). With VA flying a really strong product I don't think it's a viable way forward...

The long term plan is that the domestic fleet will receive a uniform product in the next few years. What this means has yet to be revealed. But it wouldn't surprise me to see the business class seats upgraded, I believe there are two different seats currently fitted to the A332s, with one config.

On a side note, the article sites Ben Sandilands as a source... most in Australia will agree, enough said about the article.


User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7520 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 2):
What this means has yet to be revealed. But it wouldn't surprise me to see the business class seats upgraded,

Let's hope that a decent product can be installed on EBA-D (with their lightweight floors). I'd settle for Skybeds in the rest and larger pitch in EBA-D. Consistency is important, but so too is not catering to the lowest denominator.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7369 times:

Borghetti was horrified that Virgin's premium product on domestic routes was a middle seat converted into a table, and he had it ripped out and replaced with proper wide 2-2 Business Class seating.

But Qantas will compete with Virgin's 2-2-2 A330 domestic Business Class by deploying a 2-3-2 A330 with the middle-seat covered with a plastic lid spun as a "workplace"?

Sometimes I think that Clifford and Joyce aren't deliberately trying to make Qantas fail, but rather are just a pair of incompetents who make absurd decisions because they are otherwise intellectually-normal men whose judgment is impaired by dogma.

But each time I start to believe that, they do this sort of deliberate self-harm and I conclude that no, I think they're scuttling their own airline on purpose.


User currently offlineTruemanQLD From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7230 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 4):

Here we go, such an intelligent, well thought out response.

Anyways, its an odd choice but I am sure that there will be a purpose to it, just have to wait and see


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5363 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7116 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):
This isn't new -- two QF aircraft and three JQ aircraft (with the middle seat open) have been flying with this product for a couple of years.

Precisely, this is what, 2009 news?

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 2):
the article sites Ben Sandilands as a source... most in Australia will agree, enough said about the article.

  

Quoting koruman (Reply 4):
But Qantas will compete with Virgin's 2-2-2 A330 domestic Business Class by deploying a 2-3-2 A330 with the middle-seat covered with a plastic lid spun as a "workplace"

As they have done since the inception of DJ J. On a domestic flight more business travellers will be swayed by what's on the outside of the plane than in it.

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 5):
such an intelligent, well thought out response

I actually thought it wasn't too bad compared to some we've seen    



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13739 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6705 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):
But this article is just media beat up...

Perhaps you're being a bit too sensitive. It was quite balanced unless you ignored the latter half.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6690 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):
This isn't new -- two QF aircraft and three JQ aircraft (with the middle seat open) have been flying with this product for a couple of years.

In fact, this is a new product. The older A332s do have 2-3-2 but these are with the old Millenium Domestic J class seats. These seats are new and are, in fact, the identical seats used in international Premium Economy. It is strange that QF have gone down this path with a new product when they will have seen the excellent J product VA are installing on their new A332s. Maybe there is another plan in the works and the new plane will eventually go to JQ and the 788s will come to QF domestic???



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4905 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6591 times:

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 5):
Anyways, its an odd choice but I am sure that there will be a purpose to it, just have to wait and see

Probably the aircraft will be dedicated to the East Coast - West Coast operations and once the refurbished aircraft return (JQ A330s) there will be a new 2-2-2 configuration introduced for PER flights while the 2-3-2 layout is deployed on the SYD-MEL-BNE-ADL runs...?

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 8):
It is strange that QF have gone down this path with a new product when they will have seen the excellent J product VA are installing on their new A332s. Maybe there is another plan in the works and the new plane will eventually go to JQ and the 788s will come to QF domestic???

Now that will be interesting but it's always been quoted the aircraft are heading off to JQ...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinevhtje From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6582 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting koruman (Reply 4):
Sometimes I think that Clifford and Joyce aren't deliberately trying to make Qantas fail, but rather are just a pair of incompetents who make absurd decisions because they are otherwise intellectually-normal men whose judgment is impaired by dogma.

You seriously believe the CEO and chairman were involved in a decision about the detail arrangement of seating on an aircraft?

Have whatever opinion of them you will (mine isn't very high, especially of Joyce) but to connect them to this decision is, I think, to use an extremely long bow.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5363 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6584 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 8):
the identical seats used in international Premium Economy.

That was my first thought when I saw it, by decided that I must be wrong.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 8):
Maybe there is another plan in the works and the new plane will eventually go to JQ

You might be onto something regarding "another plan", albeit for the seats, not the plane...

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 2):
The long term plan is that the domestic fleet will receive a uniform product in the next few years. What this means has yet to be revealed. But it wouldn't surprise me to see the business class seats upgraded

If they are indeed planning to introduce a new J at some point, it makes sense to have new frames delivered with Y+ seats as those could then be shoved in an A380 or *gasp* A333 down the road.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4905 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6512 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 11):
RyanairGuru From United States of America

Am I imagining things or did you move 

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5363 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6486 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 12):
Am I imagining things or did you move

  Actually months ago, but only just updated my flag



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineQFVHOQA From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 437 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6233 times:

Maybe with the recent drop in J fares due to the VA competition, QF have decided the way to recoup revenue is to pack more J seats in the same space, and sell them at a lower price?

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2960 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6084 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 8):
In fact, this is a new product. The older A332s do have 2-3-2 but these are with the old Millenium Domestic J class seats.

Nope, I can guarantee to you that these are exactly the same seats (QF hasn't had Millenium configured A332s for years). Mr Sandilands had a rip into them back in 2010 as well: http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...a-gift-from-qantas-to-virgin-blue/

Like I said, I've flown this product. I've also flown the W product and can tell you that they are not identical... The seat back doesn't go up as high and the headrest doesn't have the same degree of movement/adjustment. The armrests are slightly different, the PTV's are totally different and (from memory though i might be wrong here) the seat base doesn't slide forward when the back reclines. Similar, but a heavily modified (and cheaper) design.

Quoting vhtje (Reply 10):

The Chairman, no, but the CEO, absolutely. He might not be on the team that designs the seats or figures out the small details, but he's on the team that signs off on major strategic decisions like the configuration of aircraft.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 11):
A333

Now that is an interesting idea... It's not quite the same seat, but it would be more than adequate as a regional version of the long haul W...


User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5965 times:

The other thing to consider is how long will VA keep its A332 operating domestically? I think we will see them being sent to Asia soon enough, and a more domestic style seat will be introduced on the newer aircraft that replace them. I feel VA wanted to make a big splash to catch the corporate market with an up market product, rumours are circulating of the on board service being slowly wound back slightly. I think QF knows this.

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4905 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5891 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 16):
I think we will see them being sent to Asia soon enough, and a more domestic style seat will be introduced on the newer aircraft that replace them.

I take it the ex-EK A332 aircraft will be returned and replaced...? Any idea "why" VA went ahead and leased these birds and NEW birds from Airbus???

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5872 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 15):
Nope, I can guarantee to you that these are exactly the same seats (QF hasn't had Millenium configured A332s for years).

Australian Business Traveller who have actually seen the seats say they are the same. http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-movin...s-for-sydney-perth-melbourne-perth

QF hasn't has Millenium seats in A332s as these planes have gone to JQ but are scheduled to come back and it is unclear if QF will refit them at all and instead go for the wireless iPad solution.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 17):
I take it the ex-EK A332 aircraft will be returned and replaced...? Any idea "why" VA went ahead and leased these birds and NEW birds from Airbus???

I don't believe the EK birds are going to be returned though I don't understand why VA has decided to not refit them. There are rumours of more A332s but not as substitutes for the existing birds. I believe they leased them as they wanted A332s sooner than Airbus could deliver.



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4905 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5829 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 18):
I believe they leased them as they wanted A332s sooner than Airbus could deliver.

Or probably the lease term was to good of a deal...? I wonder if EK would've gone ahead with the lease today considering they have tied up with QF 

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5384 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 8):
These seats are new and are, in fact, the identical seats used in international Premium Economy.

While you are correct about the seats being the same model as International Premium Economy, I am confused when you say these seats are new. They were first seen on EBO and EBP in 2010 and were sold as 2-3-2. The blocking of the centre seat happened around a year later. The aircraft that later went to Jetstar, being EBQ, R and S, are configured identically (without the centre seat blacked).


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5363 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5346 times:

Quoting Ditzyboy (Reply 20):
While you are correct about the seats being the same model as International Premium Economy, I am confused when you say these seats are new. They were first seen on EBO and EBP in 2010

OK, now I'm really confused. I take it that smi006 and Tullamarine are correct in saying that these are the same as Y+ and qf002 is correct in saying that they are the same seats that have been used since 2010. Am I interpreting that right? If so it would seem that they arguing the same thing across each other!



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5291 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 21):
If so it would seem that they arguing the same thing across each other!

I share your confusion at what point is being contested LOL They are the same seat model as Premium Economy. They were first seen on EBO and all subsequent deliveries.

To add to the confusion... Domestic 332s EBM and N are 2-2-2 in J have have the same seat type, Silverwing II, as the first three Jetconnect 73Hs.

Since late-2010 all 332s and 73Hs have been delivered with the Premium Economy seat designed by Recaro.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2960 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5159 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 18):
QF hasn't has Millenium seats in A332s as these planes have gone to JQ but are scheduled to come back and it is unclear if QF will refit them at all and instead go for the wireless iPad solution.

Correct. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that the JQ aircraft will be fitted with new seats when they return to QF (simply because it doesn't take 4-6 weeks to change the covers and fit a wireless system). Though it will be interesting to see which direction they go in with the IFE.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 21):
OK, now I'm really confused. I take it that smi006 and Tullamarine are correct in saying that these are the same as Y+ and qf002 is correct in saying that they are the same seats that have been used since 2010. Am I interpreting that right? If so it would seem that they arguing the same thing across each other

Correct! I can understand your confusion.

Quoting Ditzyboy (Reply 22):
I share your confusion at what point is being contested LOL

1. Whether the seats are new or not.
2. Whether the seats are the same as the W seat. They are the same model but with quite a few changes (the biggest IMO being the fact that the seat back doesn't go as high and that the armrests are scalloped out to give extra cushion width). It seems that different interpretations of what being the same means came into play here...


User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5091 times:

I think we all agree now  

What none of us understand is why QF have gone down this route of 7 abreast with an obvious stop-gap bit of plastic on the middle seat.



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
25 Ditzyboy : Could it be that the seat sets were already purchased when the original plan was for all the aircraft to go to JQi? It seemed that the decision to go
26 Ditzyboy : I forgot to add, qf002, that the Premium Economy seats on 744s and 380s have been 'styled' by Marc Newson. As you point out, there are a few differen
27 Post contains links QFVHOQA : Ben Sandilands reports that Alan Joyce has announced the 2-3-2 J class will be reconfigured, and that it "had been locked into sales contracts some ti
28 Post contains images RyanairGuru : Well I certainly hope that he his compensation was commensurate with the originality of what he "designed" That makes sense. It never ceases to amaze
29 koruman : Even so, it means that Joyce was asleep at the wheel. I'm just a Qantas frequent flyer, and I could tell straight away that this was an act of self-h
30 Ditzyboy : Thank you for the link. The report still fails to indicate what the product will be on the domestic fleet, including the (at least) four frames with
31 Post contains images tullamarine : I thought they'd gone to Kmart and bought a pile of "Stable Tables." This whole story doesn't make sense at all. Today AJ claims they want to create
32 Ditzyboy : LOL Here's hoping for a consistent and competitive domestic 332 product. "Pronto!" There is/was obviously purchasing and planning reasons behind the
33 qf002 : Seems like AJ is just starting to catch up on what we've all been saying for years! Get those international A330 refurbishments rolling ASAP! Unless
34 QFVHOQA : If the seating config was locked in for these frames since before DJ received its A330 it just shows how arrogant QF was with its command of the domes
35 TruemanQLD : You're just a QF FF? Are you kidding? You continually whinge about QF and everything to do with it. And given some of the great ideas we have seen yo
36 JQflightie : ok here goes: 1. Its not the Millenium Seats, they are old, they are the newer recaro seats/ W Class seats on International 2. The table was put in be
37 Ditzyboy : The reduction to 36J had nothing to do with FA workload because, as you point out, the forth FA was removed and pax to crew ratio actually increased.
38 qqflyboy : AA is doing the same with middle seats in the emergency exit rows on their 737-800 a/c. However, the airline is doing it to bring the capacity down to
39 JQflightie : I think what AJ is doing is great, and as you said, i think people's perception is that he is doing self harm, which isnt true, and has been showed t
40 Post contains images Ditzyboy : The first image shows the delivery configuration of EBJ and K. The second image shows the aircraft both updated to the 2-3-2 standard. From memory (w
41 Post contains links trent1000 : OK everyone - there's been an update to the original post!!! Qantas backtracks on their business class seats... have a look at this new article: http:
42 Ditzyboy : The article article talks about upgraded 747s, refreshed 767s with iPads and international A330s with flat beds. The article does not mention domesti
43 Post contains images RyanairGuru : Interesting. Given that 150/154 is over 97%, the chance of them actually selling those seats under normal circumstances is probably quite slim, so ta
44 koruman : Isn't this all fairly simple? Qantas had been used to dominating domestic Business Class for the last decade, and had become complacent and believed t
45 RyanairGuru : For East Coast turns, yes. And, to be honest, this seat isn't really any different to the old J on the 767 fleet. If we ask the question of whether a
46 Lufthansa : And this could be the key to doing it. Cycle them through Asia flights, having say late night arrivals into PER then continuing overnight to SYD and
47 Post contains links tullamarine : Of course, QF are right to make a decision on financial grounds and maybe the majority of J class customers will not see the benefit of VA's product a
48 Lufthansa : Another thought too, is how much extra revenue is this actually bringing in? For example, if say at least half of those J seats are filled with upgra
49 RyanairGuru : Now that's not a bad idea. At 1-2-1 I don't think that this seat would be dense enough, even if they are slightly angled. I think that a better choic
50 Ditzyboy : They already have it - the international 767s (granted there is only four left). Refurbished Dreamtime seats? They are the same seat model as those u
51 Lufthansa : Have a look at the Delta 764 picts online, they're already in it. I would imagine the seat is just slightly narrower than the A330 version, much like
52 RyanairGuru : OK, now I've looked at the seat maps I see that the new DL and CO(UA) configurations have basically the same number of seats: 40 for DL and 39 for UA
53 Post contains images qf002 : I never saw this as QF sinking to JQ level, more JQ rising to QF level. This seat represented a major upgrade over JQ's existing seats, with IFE, mor
54 Lufthansa : There are but the trouble is the bloody thing is too wide for the 767, they really need a J class seat that takes up less space. Actually the bloody
55 Post contains links and images EK413 : I know it's off topic but I didn't think it would be appropriate to start a new thread to raise the question regarding the NEW "Wunala Dreaming" aircr
56 Post contains images qf002 : But not too wide for a transcon A332 subfleet I think it is. What a massive shame. I'm still holding out hope at an A333 could see a new aboriginal s
57 Ditzyboy : The Mk1 Skybed did come in two versions. There is one for 747 A Zone and the A330. The other version is for 747 Upper Deck and Main Deck after of Doo
58 Post contains images EK413 : Once again QF is going to be stuck with 4 white whales so to speak in the A332 fleet Is it possible to introduce a new light weight 'Skybed"....? I k
59 qf002 : It's totally unrealistic to think QF will ever fit lie flats across the entire domestic A330 fleet. The majority of these aircraft will be flying 1 h
60 Lufthansa : Don't forget Air China. It has really embraced the type. and in reality, when QF turns up to airbus, JQ's orders count, so it really is already one o
61 Ditzyboy : I think we would ALL be guilty of wondering what could have been! That said, I am excited that the 332s are to be playing a bigger part in the domest
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