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QF Business Class New Workspace.  
User currently offlinetrent1000 From Japan, joined Jan 2007, 561 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 7944 times:

As the title says: Fantastic or fail? I vote for the latter...
http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/f...space/story-e6frfq80-1226524287711

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 7847 times:

This isn't new -- two QF aircraft and three JQ aircraft (with the middle seat open) have been flying with this product for a couple of years. I travelled in J on one of these aircraft on a MEL-SYD sector last June, and thought the product was overall better than the older configuration.

I can only assume that QF plans to eventually open up the middle seat across the fleet once the 767s are gone. It strikes me as rather stupid to spend the money on the extra seat rather than wider armrests unless they plan to generate revenue using it in the future.

That said, flyers were extremely vocally negative when the 2-3-2 layout first started flying in 2010 (which is what promoted them too fit the plastic contraption). With VA flying a really strong product I don't think it's a viable way forward...

But this article is just media beat up...


User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 7565 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):
I can only assume that QF plans to eventually open up the middle seat across the fleet once the 767s are gone. It strikes me as rather stupid to spend the money on the extra seat rather than wider armrests unless they plan to generate revenue using it in the future.

That said, flyers were extremely vocally negative when the 2-3-2 layout first started flying in 2010 (which is what promoted them too fit the plastic contraption). With VA flying a really strong product I don't think it's a viable way forward...

The long term plan is that the domestic fleet will receive a uniform product in the next few years. What this means has yet to be revealed. But it wouldn't surprise me to see the business class seats upgraded, I believe there are two different seats currently fitted to the A332s, with one config.

On a side note, the article sites Ben Sandilands as a source... most in Australia will agree, enough said about the article.


User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 7534 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 2):
What this means has yet to be revealed. But it wouldn't surprise me to see the business class seats upgraded,

Let's hope that a decent product can be installed on EBA-D (with their lightweight floors). I'd settle for Skybeds in the rest and larger pitch in EBA-D. Consistency is important, but so too is not catering to the lowest denominator.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 7383 times:

Borghetti was horrified that Virgin's premium product on domestic routes was a middle seat converted into a table, and he had it ripped out and replaced with proper wide 2-2 Business Class seating.

But Qantas will compete with Virgin's 2-2-2 A330 domestic Business Class by deploying a 2-3-2 A330 with the middle-seat covered with a plastic lid spun as a "workplace"?

Sometimes I think that Clifford and Joyce aren't deliberately trying to make Qantas fail, but rather are just a pair of incompetents who make absurd decisions because they are otherwise intellectually-normal men whose judgment is impaired by dogma.

But each time I start to believe that, they do this sort of deliberate self-harm and I conclude that no, I think they're scuttling their own airline on purpose.


User currently offlineTruemanQLD From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 1529 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7244 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 4):

Here we go, such an intelligent, well thought out response.

Anyways, its an odd choice but I am sure that there will be a purpose to it, just have to wait and see


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7130 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):
This isn't new -- two QF aircraft and three JQ aircraft (with the middle seat open) have been flying with this product for a couple of years.

Precisely, this is what, 2009 news?

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 2):
the article sites Ben Sandilands as a source... most in Australia will agree, enough said about the article.

  

Quoting koruman (Reply 4):
But Qantas will compete with Virgin's 2-2-2 A330 domestic Business Class by deploying a 2-3-2 A330 with the middle-seat covered with a plastic lid spun as a "workplace"

As they have done since the inception of DJ J. On a domestic flight more business travellers will be swayed by what's on the outside of the plane than in it.

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 5):
such an intelligent, well thought out response

I actually thought it wasn't too bad compared to some we've seen    



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 6719 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):
But this article is just media beat up...

Perhaps you're being a bit too sensitive. It was quite balanced unless you ignored the latter half.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 6704 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 1):
This isn't new -- two QF aircraft and three JQ aircraft (with the middle seat open) have been flying with this product for a couple of years.

In fact, this is a new product. The older A332s do have 2-3-2 but these are with the old Millenium Domestic J class seats. These seats are new and are, in fact, the identical seats used in international Premium Economy. It is strange that QF have gone down this path with a new product when they will have seen the excellent J product VA are installing on their new A332s. Maybe there is another plan in the works and the new plane will eventually go to JQ and the 788s will come to QF domestic???



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6605 times:

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 5):
Anyways, its an odd choice but I am sure that there will be a purpose to it, just have to wait and see

Probably the aircraft will be dedicated to the East Coast - West Coast operations and once the refurbished aircraft return (JQ A330s) there will be a new 2-2-2 configuration introduced for PER flights while the 2-3-2 layout is deployed on the SYD-MEL-BNE-ADL runs...?

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 8):
It is strange that QF have gone down this path with a new product when they will have seen the excellent J product VA are installing on their new A332s. Maybe there is another plan in the works and the new plane will eventually go to JQ and the 788s will come to QF domestic???

Now that will be interesting but it's always been quoted the aircraft are heading off to JQ...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinevhtje From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6596 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 4):
Sometimes I think that Clifford and Joyce aren't deliberately trying to make Qantas fail, but rather are just a pair of incompetents who make absurd decisions because they are otherwise intellectually-normal men whose judgment is impaired by dogma.

You seriously believe the CEO and chairman were involved in a decision about the detail arrangement of seating on an aircraft?

Have whatever opinion of them you will (mine isn't very high, especially of Joyce) but to connect them to this decision is, I think, to use an extremely long bow.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6598 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 8):
the identical seats used in international Premium Economy.

That was my first thought when I saw it, by decided that I must be wrong.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 8):
Maybe there is another plan in the works and the new plane will eventually go to JQ

You might be onto something regarding "another plan", albeit for the seats, not the plane...

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 2):
The long term plan is that the domestic fleet will receive a uniform product in the next few years. What this means has yet to be revealed. But it wouldn't surprise me to see the business class seats upgraded

If they are indeed planning to introduce a new J at some point, it makes sense to have new frames delivered with Y+ seats as those could then be shoved in an A380 or *gasp* A333 down the road.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6526 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 11):
RyanairGuru From United States of America

Am I imagining things or did you move 

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6500 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 12):
Am I imagining things or did you move

  Actually months ago, but only just updated my flag



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineQFVHOQA From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 6247 times:

Maybe with the recent drop in J fares due to the VA competition, QF have decided the way to recoup revenue is to pack more J seats in the same space, and sell them at a lower price?

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week ago) and read 6098 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 8):
In fact, this is a new product. The older A332s do have 2-3-2 but these are with the old Millenium Domestic J class seats.

Nope, I can guarantee to you that these are exactly the same seats (QF hasn't had Millenium configured A332s for years). Mr Sandilands had a rip into them back in 2010 as well: http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...a-gift-from-qantas-to-virgin-blue/

Like I said, I've flown this product. I've also flown the W product and can tell you that they are not identical... The seat back doesn't go up as high and the headrest doesn't have the same degree of movement/adjustment. The armrests are slightly different, the PTV's are totally different and (from memory though i might be wrong here) the seat base doesn't slide forward when the back reclines. Similar, but a heavily modified (and cheaper) design.

Quoting vhtje (Reply 10):

The Chairman, no, but the CEO, absolutely. He might not be on the team that designs the seats or figures out the small details, but he's on the team that signs off on major strategic decisions like the configuration of aircraft.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 11):
A333

Now that is an interesting idea... It's not quite the same seat, but it would be more than adequate as a regional version of the long haul W...


User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5979 times:

The other thing to consider is how long will VA keep its A332 operating domestically? I think we will see them being sent to Asia soon enough, and a more domestic style seat will be introduced on the newer aircraft that replace them. I feel VA wanted to make a big splash to catch the corporate market with an up market product, rumours are circulating of the on board service being slowly wound back slightly. I think QF knows this.

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5905 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 16):
I think we will see them being sent to Asia soon enough, and a more domestic style seat will be introduced on the newer aircraft that replace them.

I take it the ex-EK A332 aircraft will be returned and replaced...? Any idea "why" VA went ahead and leased these birds and NEW birds from Airbus???

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5886 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 15):
Nope, I can guarantee to you that these are exactly the same seats (QF hasn't had Millenium configured A332s for years).

Australian Business Traveller who have actually seen the seats say they are the same. http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-movin...s-for-sydney-perth-melbourne-perth

QF hasn't has Millenium seats in A332s as these planes have gone to JQ but are scheduled to come back and it is unclear if QF will refit them at all and instead go for the wireless iPad solution.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 17):
I take it the ex-EK A332 aircraft will be returned and replaced...? Any idea "why" VA went ahead and leased these birds and NEW birds from Airbus???

I don't believe the EK birds are going to be returned though I don't understand why VA has decided to not refit them. There are rumours of more A332s but not as substitutes for the existing birds. I believe they leased them as they wanted A332s sooner than Airbus could deliver.



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5843 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 18):
I believe they leased them as they wanted A332s sooner than Airbus could deliver.

Or probably the lease term was to good of a deal...? I wonder if EK would've gone ahead with the lease today considering they have tied up with QF 

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5398 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 8):
These seats are new and are, in fact, the identical seats used in international Premium Economy.

While you are correct about the seats being the same model as International Premium Economy, I am confused when you say these seats are new. They were first seen on EBO and EBP in 2010 and were sold as 2-3-2. The blocking of the centre seat happened around a year later. The aircraft that later went to Jetstar, being EBQ, R and S, are configured identically (without the centre seat blacked).


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5360 times:

Quoting Ditzyboy (Reply 20):
While you are correct about the seats being the same model as International Premium Economy, I am confused when you say these seats are new. They were first seen on EBO and EBP in 2010

OK, now I'm really confused. I take it that smi006 and Tullamarine are correct in saying that these are the same as Y+ and qf002 is correct in saying that they are the same seats that have been used since 2010. Am I interpreting that right? If so it would seem that they arguing the same thing across each other!



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5305 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 21):
If so it would seem that they arguing the same thing across each other!

I share your confusion at what point is being contested LOL They are the same seat model as Premium Economy. They were first seen on EBO and all subsequent deliveries.

To add to the confusion... Domestic 332s EBM and N are 2-2-2 in J have have the same seat type, Silverwing II, as the first three Jetconnect 73Hs.

Since late-2010 all 332s and 73Hs have been delivered with the Premium Economy seat designed by Recaro.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5173 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 18):
QF hasn't has Millenium seats in A332s as these planes have gone to JQ but are scheduled to come back and it is unclear if QF will refit them at all and instead go for the wireless iPad solution.

Correct. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that the JQ aircraft will be fitted with new seats when they return to QF (simply because it doesn't take 4-6 weeks to change the covers and fit a wireless system). Though it will be interesting to see which direction they go in with the IFE.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 21):
OK, now I'm really confused. I take it that smi006 and Tullamarine are correct in saying that these are the same as Y+ and qf002 is correct in saying that they are the same seats that have been used since 2010. Am I interpreting that right? If so it would seem that they arguing the same thing across each other

Correct! I can understand your confusion.

Quoting Ditzyboy (Reply 22):
I share your confusion at what point is being contested LOL

1. Whether the seats are new or not.
2. Whether the seats are the same as the W seat. They are the same model but with quite a few changes (the biggest IMO being the fact that the seat back doesn't go as high and that the armrests are scalloped out to give extra cushion width). It seems that different interpretations of what being the same means came into play here...


User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5105 times:

I think we all agree now  

What none of us understand is why QF have gone down this route of 7 abreast with an obvious stop-gap bit of plastic on the middle seat.



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days ago) and read 5028 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 24):

Could it be that the seat sets were already purchased when the original plan was for all the aircraft to go to JQi? It seemed that the decision to go 2-2-2 had been made with the 2009 delivery of EBM, then N in early 2010.

It is baffling to think that AFTER Virgin showcases their domestic 332 product (even the iniial two leased aircraft) that QF aircraft are delivered in 2-3-2. There has to be some reason. I remember that EBJ and K were delivered in a bizarre 2-2-2 configuration with the Millenium seats that were the same width as the 2-3-2 seats but a massive left hand aisle that looked rather awkward. The aircraft were later refitted with 2-3-2 Millenium seats and I don't know whether there was an initial shortage of the centre triple seat sets or it had already been decided the aircraft were to go to JQi long before they actually did. It got me thinking that perhaps the seat tracks in the floor are set at delivery and reconfiguring them to accomodate 2-2-2 is too costly or not technically possible? That is more a question than a theory. If anyone can shed any light on the matter, I am sure we'd all be grateful!


User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days ago) and read 5010 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 23):

I forgot to add, qf002, that the Premium Economy seats on 744s and 380s have been 'styled' by Marc Newson. As you point out, there are a few differences. The carbon fibre back shell on the wide bodies is one example. It must be noted that the 'workspace' on the domestic 332s with 2-3-2 seating was also designed/styled by Marc Newson. Seriously.


User currently offlineQFVHOQA From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days ago) and read 5085 times:

Ben Sandilands reports that Alan Joyce has announced the 2-3-2 J class will be reconfigured, and that it "had been locked into sales contracts some time in the past".

Alan Joyce has also now said that "the A330 international fleet would be fitted with full length fully flat parallel to the floor seats". Hopefully also fitted with a W product at the same time.

Qantas is fixing its A330 biz class seats, pronto


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5041 times:

Quoting Ditzyboy (Reply 26):
It must be noted that the 'workspace' on the domestic 332s with 2-3-2 seating was also designed/styled by Marc Newson

Well I certainly hope that he his compensation was commensurate with the originality of what he "designed"  
Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 27):
"had been locked into sales contracts some time in the past".

That makes sense. It never ceases to amaze me how difficult it is to convince some of our American friends that just because UA is currently refurbishing 777s with IPTE J and F, that doesn't in any way mean that it will represent their premium product going forward. Those upgrades were planned, and by some accounts payed for, before the merger was even a twinkle in Glenn Tilton's eye!

The fact is, these things don't just "happen" and I have no doubt that QF was locked into this configuration since before VA went viral.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5033 times:

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 27):
Ben Sandilands reports that Alan Joyce has announced the 2-3-2 J class will be reconfigured, and that it "had been locked into sales contracts some time in the past".
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 28):
That makes sense

Even so, it means that Joyce was asleep at the wheel.

I'm just a Qantas frequent flyer, and I could tell straight away that this was an act of self-harm when placed in the context of Virgin's A330 product.

The CEO should have had the same immediate response. And if he didn't, then I'm better qualified than he is to be the CEO.


User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4978 times:

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 27):

Thank you for the link. The report still fails to indicate what the product will be on the domestic fleet, including the (at least) four frames with lightweight floors. The omission worries me. I hate being cynical, though I am not expecting flat beds. Sloped beds seem unlikely (regarding supposed issue with the lightweight floors) if there is to be consistency. I am most happy to be proved wrong.


User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4967 times:

Quoting Ditzyboy (Reply 26):
the 'workspace' on the domestic 332s with 2-3-2 seating was also designed/styled by Marc Newson. Seriously.

I thought they'd gone to Kmart and bought a pile of "Stable Tables."   

This whole story doesn't make sense at all. Today AJ claims they want to create a consistent product but currently booking J class on a SYD-PER sector can mean lots of things. It could be a 744 Skybed (not for much longer), an A330 Skybed, 7 abreast in a A330 domestic config, 6 abreast in a A330 domestic config or 6 abreast in a 767 (not for much longer). This is not the way to treat high-spending flyers and it is bizarre that even last weekend the inconsistency was being exacerbated.



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4935 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 31):
I thought they'd gone to Kmart and bought a pile of "Stable Tables.

LOL Here's hoping for a consistent and competitive domestic 332 product. "Pronto!"

There is/was obviously purchasing and planning reasons behind the current configurations. It would be interesting to know what technical restrictions, if any, exist. The lightweight floors in EBA-D are well fabled - I say fabled as Qantas has never made any official comment regarding the floors or repercussions of said specifications. What 'weight' (pardon the pun!) they have in upcoming configuration decisions is interesting.

[Edited 2012-11-27 23:07:49]

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4784 times:

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 27):

Seems like AJ is just starting to catch up on what we've all been saying for years! Get those international A330 refurbishments rolling ASAP!

Quoting koruman (Reply 29):
Even so, it means that Joyce was asleep at the wheel.

I'm just a Qantas frequent flyer, and I could tell straight away that this was an act of self-harm when placed in the context of Virgin's A330 product.

Unless QF had these seats locked in before VA had even announced that they were getting A330s, which seems possible if the seat orders were all made together back before the first deliveries in 2010 for all 6 new A332s.

VA wasn't a threat back then. I think it's good to see that QF now recognises the need to offer a better product (even if it was because of VA's rebranding), rather than sticking their head in the sand.

Quoting Ditzyboy (Reply 30):

I'm expecting something very similar to the existing 2-2-2 aircraft with the new styling and updated IFE (either seat back AVOD or a wireless system), but similar dimensions and pitch. Most of the A330s will be replacing the 767 fleet which just runs up and down the east coast (and competes mainly with VA's 737 product), so there is no need for an extravagant product.

It would be good to see a dedicated transcon subfleet though, with refurbished sloped Skybeds (perhaps with new fabrics and IFE). I'm not holding my breath though.


User currently offlineQFVHOQA From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4727 times:

If the seating config was locked in for these frames since before DJ received its A330 it just shows how arrogant QF was with its command of the domestic J market. With no competition they seemingly thought they could pass off these seats and charge the same high prices. The 2-3-2 while not ideal is probably OK for SYD-MEL-BNE flights. But transcons?

I would hope with the refurb of the international A330s they find a J seat that is a more efficient use of space than the current Skybed Mk II. It just takes up too much room when compared to QFs competition.


User currently offlineTruemanQLD From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 1529 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4700 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 29):
Even so, it means that Joyce was asleep at the wheel.

I'm just a Qantas frequent flyer, and I could tell straight away that this was an act of self-harm when placed in the context of Virgin's A330 product.

The CEO should have had the same immediate response. And if he didn't, then I'm better qualified than he is to be the CEO.

You're just a QF FF? Are you kidding? You continually whinge about QF and everything to do with it. And given some of the great ideas we have seen you suggest, I am grateful QF is run by AJ.


User currently offlineJQflightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

ok here goes:

1. Its not the Millenium Seats, they are old, they are the newer recaro seats/ W Class seats on International
2. The table was put in because the customers were all complaining about having to sit in a middle seat in J Class.
3. When this aircraft was first configured like this, it was in a 42J config, requiring us to have a 4th crew member working in the business class cabin, as this aircraft was operating alot on PER-MEL it was a hell of alot more work load on us FA's and we were struggling to get the service done, so the 'stable table' was added so then we went back to 36J and 3 crew in J/C.
4. These aircraft were also configured like this for fleet flexibility, they could be inter changed between QF and JQ with just the change of the seat covers.

There is no conspericy theories behind why these aircraft were config'd like this, these are the facts and no more!



Next Trip: PER-DPS-LOP-CGK-KUL-PVG-LHR, LCY-MAD-VLC, BCN-LYS-TLS-IST-JED-KUL-SGN-CAN-MEL
User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4409 times:

Quoting JQflightie (Reply 36):

The reduction to 36J had nothing to do with FA workload because, as you point out, the forth FA was removed and pax to crew ratio actually increased.

What conspiracy theories do you speak of? The people saying that AJ is doing deliberate self-harm? Then I agree with you. I hope you weren't having a go at those of us trying to find the logical reasons behind the configuration. The fact these aircraft were to move to Jetstar has much to do with it I am sure.

I'd love to know why EBJ and K featured the truly bizzare 34J 2-2-2 configuration with the narrow Millenium seats and dance floor sized left aisle. Seat shortage? Technical reasons? Or to offer a token 2-2-2 before the aircraft went to JQi? JQflightie, were you at mainline when those aircraft were in the fleet?


User currently offlineqqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2276 posts, RR: 13
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4340 times:

AA is doing the same with middle seats in the emergency exit rows on their 737-800 a/c. However, the airline is doing it to bring the capacity down to 150, thereby requiring only three flight attendants instead of four. AA's standard configuration on the plane is currently 16/144 (160), but as they remove one row from coach for MCE (Main Cabin Extra), that brings capacity down to 16/138 (154). I guess they reasoned those four extra seats wouldn't make up the cost of a fourth flight attendant, and instead are banking on the extra revenue they'll generate from selling those exit row seats as a premium economy product.


The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineJQflightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days ago) and read 4150 times:

Quoting Ditzyboy (Reply 37):
The reduction to 36J had nothing to do with FA workload because, as you point out, the forth FA was removed and pax to crew ratio actually increased.

What conspiracy theories do you speak of? The people saying that AJ is doing deliberate self-harm? Then I agree with you. I hope you weren't having a go at those of us trying to find the logical reasons behind the configuration. The fact these aircraft were to move to Jetstar has much to do with it I am sure.

I'd love to know why EBJ and K featured the truly bizzare 34J 2-2-2 configuration with the narrow Millenium seats and dance floor sized left aisle. Seat shortage? Technical reasons? Or to offer a token 2-2-2 before the aircraft went to JQi? JQflightie, were you at mainline when those aircraft were in the fleet?

I think what AJ is doing is great, and as you said, i think people's perception is that he is doing self harm, which isnt true, and has been showed that he has QF's best intrests at heart! There was the newspaper article stating that the config's were designed like this so that they could easily move between companies.

When the aircraft first got delivered in 42J, there was 3 crew originally, then we were not getting the service done, so a 4th was added, then pax complained about the middle seat, so stable table was added, so it went back to 3 crew which we work fine with. It reduced cost, and also gave the pax what they wanted, QF listened and responded to the customers needs.

Yes i was at mainline when EBJ was in QF colours. EBJ was short lived, had no IFE in it except for Drop Down screens from PSU's. and as i dont remember this dancefloor space you speak of, im just going to draw comparisons and say do you mean like what has happened on the J/C isles on EBM and EBN?? 2-2-2 ??



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User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4086 times:

Quoting JQflightie (Reply 39):
i dont remember this dancefloor space you speak of, im just going to draw comparisons and say do you mean like what has happened on the J/C isles on EBM and EBN?? 2-2-2 ??

The first image shows the delivery configuration of EBJ and K. The second image shows the aircraft both updated to the 2-3-2 standard. From memory (which may fail me) this was done AFTER it was known the aircraft were going to JQi. This was a good six months before they actually left domestic.



So I was just curious if the 2-2-2 configuration with narrow Millennium seats was due to a shortage of centre triple sets, a cheap way of doing 2-2-2 or not technically possible due to the seat tracks only accommodating 2-3-2 style seats. You will note that rows 2-5 feature the same seat set as the row 1 centre set, which was always just a pair (due to narrowing of the fuselage).


User currently offlinetrent1000 From Japan, joined Jan 2007, 561 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3908 times:

OK everyone - there's been an update to the original post!!!
Qantas backtracks on their business class seats... have a look at this new article:

http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/q...seats/story-e6frfq80-1226526961176


User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3717 times:

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 41):
Qantas backtracks on their business class seats...

The article article talks about upgraded 747s, refreshed 767s with iPads and international A330s with flat beds. The article does not mention domestic 332s at all.

Quote:
A Qantas spokesman said the airline had no plans to change the interiors of the fleet.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/q...Wmrd.

This seems completely at odds with Sandilands' unreferenced and unsupported comment that AJ has asked the board to consider upgrading the A330s, unless he is talking about the international fleet - which has nothing to do with middle seats and Stable Tables (thank you, tullamarine!).


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3627 times:

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 38):

Interesting. Given that 150/154 is over 97%, the chance of them actually selling those seats under normal circumstances is probably quite slim, so taking a crew member off makes a lot of sense.

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 41):

So the only "update" is that news.com.au now uses Ben Sandilands as a source  



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3520 times:

Isn't this all fairly simple?

Qantas had been used to dominating domestic Business Class for the last decade, and had become complacent and believed that they could afford to deploy an inter-changeable configuration which could be switched quickly between Jetstar International Star Class (as Business Class was then called), Qantas International Premium Economy and Domestic Business.

There was no credible domestic Business Class competition in sight, and this product-rigidity probably felt like inter-brand flexibility to them.

I doubt that anyone at Qantas ever asked the following elementary questions:

1. Would Qantas domestic Business passengers accept what they recognise as the International Premium Economy seat?

2. Would Qantas domestic Business passengers accept the Jetstar Business Class seat? (And if they acquire a taste for it, will they stop buying $6000 Qantas Business fares to Honolulu and instead buy Jetstar Business $2500 fares?)

3. If Virgin introduces a superior Business class product, what is an appropriate response? (When this question was asked - far too late - some moron authorised sticking a plastic lid on top of the seat cushion of the middle seat, like that was going to fool anyone.)


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3495 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 44):
Would Qantas domestic Business passengers accept what they recognise as the International Premium Economy seat?
Quoting koruman (Reply 44):
Would Qantas domestic Business passengers accept the Jetstar Business Class seat?

For East Coast turns, yes. And, to be honest, this seat isn't really any different to the old J on the 767 fleet.

If we ask the question of whether a British Airways/Air France/Lufthansa Business passenger would accept what is, in effect, a Y seat, then I'd say that the QF Y+ seat isn't at all bad for SYD-MEL.

Quoting koruman (Reply 44):
And if they acquire a taste for it, will they stop buying $6000 Qantas Business fares to Honolulu and instead buy Jetstar Business $2500 fares?

That's an interesting question. I'd suggest that JQ J and QF Y+ are the two interchangeable products, but with regards to HNL you might be onto something. There really is no justification for paying the difference to fly J on a 767.

Quoting koruman (Reply 44):
If Virgin introduces a superior Business class product, what is an appropriate response?

And this, I think, is the most important question. We all get excited by nice shiny DJ flat beds, but are they actually necessary on a 4 hour flight? To be honest, other than on a red eye I would suggest that a decent meal and a few glasses of good wine is more important than the ability to lie down.

I think QF realise this, and are trying to gauge how the market responds before committing to a new J product. If people genuinely seem to choose VA then I'm sure they will go down that route. But in the mean time they will sit back and watch, because there is no justification for a big capital outlay if it wouldn't actually draw in more revenue.

Is the current offering right? No. If nothing else they should have considered 6 abreast with wider seats. But I personally don't see the need to install flat beds on every A330 just because VA has them. Just so long as they allocate international SkyBed frames on redeyes I think that they can tick along for a bit longer.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3386 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 45):
Is the current offering right? No. If nothing else they should have considered 6 abreast with wider seats. But I personally don't see the need to install flat beds on every A330 just because VA has them. Just so long as they allocate international SkyBed frames on redeyes I think that they can tick along for a bit longer.

And this could be the key to doing it. Cycle them through Asia flights, having say late night arrivals into PER then continuing overnight to SYD and MEL. Do that and you'll probably have the market where you want it. Do something like MEL/BNE-HGK-PER-SYD. Failing that keep the 747 for a bit longer "pretty please!"


User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3350 times:

Of course, QF are right to make a decision on financial grounds and maybe the majority of J class customers will not see the benefit of VA's product as being worth it. This is the risk and reports such as these in The Age/SMH only serve to increase the risk potential http://www.smh.com.au/executive-styl...ental-turf-war-20121128-2a6bc.html

It is likely QF is already experiencing as much pain as it is likely to from this war, not because VA has the superior product but because the J class yields have been slashed from what they were when QF had the monopoly on the product. QF is now forced into spending money on updating the product with full knowledge that it will never again earn the super-profits they earned over the past decade. All they can do is limit the amount of profit lost.



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days ago) and read 3303 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 47):
It is likely QF is already experiencing as much pain as it is likely to from this war, not because VA has the superior product but because the J class yields have been slashed from what they were when QF had the monopoly on the product.

Another thought too, is how much extra revenue is this actually bringing in? For example, if say at least half of those J seats are filled with upgrading passengers, Qantas denser configuration will be the revenue winner, as they'll be able to sell more economy class tickets over the same flight. Now if QF continues its tradition of offering more to the economy class passenger, they may 'expect' a better standard of economy for their purchase, but 'hope' for an upgrade even it it means points are burnt. So i guess the question is how much additional revenue would fully flat bed's generate? if they answer is not much as its mostly upgrade passengers like the shorter east coast routes are, then the ability to upgrade might be more important than what they're upgrading to.

I'd like to see a small 767 subfleet fitted out with something. It might be worth for example, purchasing AA's second hand international J seats as these aircraft get upgraded. But if the revenue was there, I'd be looking at sticking something like the Thompson advantage suite delta are using on the 767. It could be stuck on the A330 too. My guess is, its still too shorter flight. The revenue won't be there, except for the red eye flights for a few mining big wigs (but not most of the mining employees) and for the political class entitled to fly fully paid J.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3254 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 48):
It might be worth for example, purchasing AA's second hand international J seats as these aircraft get upgraded

Now that's not a bad idea.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 48):
But if the revenue was there, I'd be looking at sticking something like the Thompson advantage suite delta are using on the 767

At 1-2-1 I don't think that this seat would be dense enough, even if they are slightly angled. I think that a better choice would be whatever it is that PMCO uses, and that AA is going to introduce on the A321 FlAAgship services.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3135 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 48):
I'd like to see a small 767 subfleet fitted out with something.

They already have it - the international 767s (granted there is only four left). Refurbished Dreamtime seats? They are the same seat model as those used by DJ/EK. Emirates upgraded theirs and the Virgin refresh made them look quite smart.

Another option could be to have Jetstar or QFLink (if they get the rumoured 319s) operate 321s on the East Coast-Perth market with a decent-sized J cabin and appropriate Y product under a wet lease arrangement.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 49):
At 1-2-1 I don't think that this seat would be dense enough, even if they are slightly angled. I think that a better choice would be whatever it is that PMCO uses, and that AA is going to introduce on the A321 FlAAgship services.

Have a look at the Delta 764 picts online, they're already in it. I would imagine the seat is just slightly narrower than the A330 version, much like 6 abreast in the 767 in J is slightly narrower than on the A330 and has narrower isles. But it fits and it looks just fine and the suite isn't suppose to take up anymore room than conventional arrangement.

If they just copied Amerian's old configuration they should still be able to squeeze a good 225 seats in. 6 abreast should be fine for lie-flat- at an angle type seats.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2981 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 51):

OK, now I've looked at the seat maps I see that the new DL and CO(UA) configurations have basically the same number of seats: 40 for DL and 39 for UA (which is due to a closet up taking the space of a seat).

I guess either would be fine for the market. They are a very similar product, just slightly different set up.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 51):
If they just copied Amerian's old configuration they should still be able to squeeze a good 225 seats in.

Looking at the sUA 767s that have been CO-ified (those affectionately referred to as "ghetto birds" on here), it would seem that using the CO seat, they could do 30J and 195Y = 225. I guess that DL's configuration would be same looking at the 764s. And of course if 30J is a bit ambitious then they could add another row or two of Y.

As for the AA seats, they could probably go better than 225. AA's 763s have 225 seats (195+30) but with a mid-cabin galley that QF doesn't have. Maybe another row or tow there, taking it to over 230.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2773 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 44):
Would Qantas domestic Business passengers accept the Jetstar Business Class seat? (And if they acquire a taste for it, will they stop buying $6000 Qantas Business fares to Honolulu and instead buy Jetstar Business $2500 fares?)

I never saw this as QF sinking to JQ level, more JQ rising to QF level. This seat represented a major upgrade over JQ's existing seats, with IFE, more seat width and a fresh new style.

Also remember that QF domestic and JQ already share the Millennium J product, and have done so for years without issue.

Quoting koruman (Reply 44):
If Virgin introduces a superior Business class product, what is an appropriate response?

1. Based on what I've heard about the timelines surrounding this sort of thing in the past, it's entirely reasonable to think that QF could have locked this seat in at some stage through 2008 or early 2009 for mid-2010 deliveries. VA was still a LCC being led by Brett Godfrey at that stage, and anything could have happened with the management changes that followed.

2. QF's response came in the form of the 744 and more international A330s flying to PER. Also don't forget that half of the domestic A332 fleet had the slightly older 2-2-2 product until this latest aircraft arrived last week, and that 40% of VA's A330 fleet flies with a 2-3-2 config in J.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 48):
I'd like to see a small 767 subfleet fitted out with something. It might be worth for example, purchasing AA's second hand international

There are just under 500 old Skybeds sitting down at AVV somewhere  

That said, I highly doubt it would be economically feasible for QF to do much more than they've done with the 767s. Replacing and moving seats is a really high cost exercise, which would be better spent on new sidewalls/bins/galleys/bathrooms if they wanted to spend it.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2732 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 53):
There are just under 500 old Skybeds sitting down at AVV somewhere

There are but the trouble is the bloody thing is too wide for the 767, they really need a J class seat
that takes up less space. Actually the bloody thing, when fully flat is too wide for most applications, and if they
had used alternative offerings in the market place they'd be able to squeeze more J into the same space and still
offer fully flat.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2646 times:

I know it's off topic but I didn't think it would be appropriate to start a new thread to raise the question regarding the NEW "Wunala Dreaming" aircraft...

Would it be safe to say VH-EBV is the so called special scheme aircraft...

I for one am disappointed if this is it...


View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © T.Laurent



EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2617 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 54):

But not too wide for a transcon A332 subfleet  
Quoting EK413 (Reply 55):

I think it is. What a massive shame.

I'm still holding out hope at an A333 could see a new aboriginal scheme when that fleet starts cycling through D checks and repaints from next year. It would also be a good opportunity to add some nice new seats  


User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2587 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 54):
There are but the trouble is the bloody thing is too wide for the 767,
Quoting qf002 (Reply 56):
But not too wide for a transcon A332 subfleet  

The Mk1 Skybed did come in two versions. There is one for 747 A Zone and the A330. The other version is for 747 Upper Deck and Main Deck after of Doors 1.

One subtle visible difference is the placement of the water bottle container. On 747 A Zone / A330 version it is on the back of the seats in front, one on top of the other. The other version has these on the centre console, behind the elbow side-by-side. This leads one to believe that one version is narrower than the other.

Regardless, there will be enough Mk 1 Skybeds coming off international 330s to accommodate the domestic 330s (minus the apparent lightweight floors of EBA-D).


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

Quoting Ditzyboy (Reply 57):
Regardless, there will be enough Mk 1 Skybeds coming off international 330s to accommodate the domestic 330s (minus the apparent lightweight floors of EBA-D).

Once again QF is going to be stuck with 4 white whales so to speak in the A332 fleet  Is it possible to introduce a new light weight 'Skybed"....? I know the chances of that happening are nil...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 58):

It's totally unrealistic to think QF will ever fit lie flats across the entire domestic A330 fleet. The majority of these aircraft will be flying 1 hour SYD-MEL/BNE hops competing with VAs 738 fleet and its product.

EBA-EBD can support Millennium seats, so I doubt they'll have issues with a new standard domestic J product (ie a 2-2-2 version of the newest product, perhaps with wireless IFE). If there is a small subfleet (unlikely as it is...) then it can be comprised of 6 or so of the newer aircraft, but EBA-EBD would be exactly the same as the other standard configuration aircraft.

It's also just occurred to me that QF will be one of the largest A330 operators once all the JQ birds are back. I can only think of CX and DL with more (36 and 32 against QF's 30).


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2339 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 59):
It's also just occurred to me that QF will be one of the largest A330 operators once all the JQ birds are back. I can only think of CX and DL with more (36 and 32 against QF's 30).

Don't forget Air China. It has really embraced the type. and in reality, when QF turns up to airbus, JQ's orders count, so it really is already one of the largest operators of the type. Win to airbus. It's just a pity QF didn't embrace it earlier for long haul ops. If it had earlier, before the ME carriers grew, it could have done some really interesting stuff. Like say HKG-HEL to feed northern europe from BNE/SYD/PER.

And the 332 would have been enough to do say hong Kong FCO/ATH etc. OF course the lack of a hub feeding once again becomes an issue but im sure you could have got HEL onboard as a oneworld hub, and probably MAN back on the network, maybe via India.


User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 61, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 60):
just a pity QF didn't embrace it earlier for long haul ops. If it had earlier, before the ME carriers grew, it could have done some really interesting stuff.

I think we would ALL be guilty of wondering what could have been!

That said, I am excited that the 332s are to be playing a bigger part in the domestic operation. I have always thought they are a useful aircraft and ideal especially for Perth ops. Back in the days of EBA-D, they were also used for the 924/925 SYD-CNS rotation and even a Friday night SYD-DRW-SYD in winter. The three domestic 333s in their 38J/305Y configuration were a little more ambitious, but also useful on Perth ops.


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