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IB Eliminates MAD-MVD, Effective April 2013  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9703 times:

Another hit for the connectivity of Uruguay. After PU closure, now the Spanish airline IB announced a reduction from 6 to 4 weekly flights, and a total elimination of the route from April. According to the source, the average LF in this flight is 86%, so this measure seems a little weird.

http://www.elpais.com.uy/121126/ultm...vuelos-madrid-montevideo-en-abril/

In the future, to travel from Uruguay to Europe, the options will be flights with stopovers in Brazil ( TAM ), Argentina ( AR ), or Chile ( LAN ).

Rgds.
G.


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9700 times:

Full flights don't necessarily equal profitable flights though....

User currently offlineblueshamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2932 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9658 times:

Clearly, IB had three options:

1. Offer cheap fares, fill the aircraft, run it at a loss

2. Raise fares, achieve a much lower load factor, run it a loss

3. Cut their losses and axe the route.

Seems like option 3, in this case, was the best one, though I am sure SEPA will accuse IAG of stealing the route and giving it to BA.  Yeah sure

Rgds

[Edited 2012-11-26 04:02:15]


So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9525 times:

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 2):
2. Raise fares, achieve a much lower load factor, run it a loss

I guess you are right, although I would think that, being THE carrier with direct flights to Europe, the LF shouldn't be affected too hard. OTOH, I was in MVD this Saturday morning when the A343 of IB arrived at the gate... the LF for that particular flight was horrible...

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9521 times:

I think all the cuts are technically suspensions. Once IB has their house in order and IAG are satisfied, I think we will see routes returning with more added.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9504 times:
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Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
In the future, to travel from Uruguay to Europe, the options will be flights with stopovers in Brazil ( TAM ), Argentina ( AR ), or Chile ( LAN ).

Not good news for MVD. However ample connections between MAD and MVD are available via GRU:


IB6825 MAD 00:40 GRU 06:30
JJ8046 GRU 09:25 MVD 12:00

JJ8031 MVD 11:45 GRU 14:10
IB6824 GRU 15:35 MAD 06:45+1


JJ8065 MAD 23:00 GRU 04:45+1
JJ8046 GRU 09:25 MVD 12:00

JJ8047 MVD 13:15 GRU 15:50
JJ8064 GRU 20:55 MAD 12:15+1


User currently offlinedelta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9289 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
I think all the cuts are technically suspensions. Once IB has their house in order and IAG are satisfied, I think we will see routes returning with more added.

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe this has to do with the downsizing of the fleet? Once IB is on more solid footing, this route may reappear. I would think the airline of Spain would do well in all of South America (except maybe Brazil).



From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9209 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
I think all the cuts are technically suspensions. Once IB has their house in order and IAG are satisfied, I think we will see routes returning with more added.

Agree with this view. Once the goal of reducing the cost base is implemented all of these routes will be back again.

The old A340 aircraft type argument is irrelevant IMO, it's the core cost base that is uncompetitive.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9021 times:

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 6):
Maybe this has to do with the downsizing of the fleet? Once IB is on more solid footing, this route may reappear.

Yes that is the plan, cut routes and downsize.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 7):
Agree with this view. Once the goal of reducing the cost base is implemented all of these routes will be back again.

IAG have essentially stated this. To re-quote myself from another thread:

"In the short term the transformation will focus on stemming the losses and creating a profitable route network. This will include suspending loss making routes and frequencies"

Often 'suspend', 'cancel' and 'end' are used interchangeably, so we can't be 100% sure, but here logic points to it indeed being just a suspension.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8879 times:

A sensible move IMHO. Full loads are hardly profitable. In fact nowadays, I'm more skeptical about a full service carrier running at 85%+ cabin factor as opposed to one running at 75%. CX too seem to be going through a similar situation right now.


The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25370 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8768 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 7):
The old A340 aircraft type argument is irrelevant IMO, it's the core cost base that is uncompetitive.

The A340s are absolutely part of the problem.

From the November 9 IAG presentation about IB restructuring under challenges they state:

"A340 fleet cost"

And later on they add a key restructuring component will need to be:

"close the gap in cost, fleet and product in the long haul network".

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8650 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
The A340s are absolutely part of the problem.

I don't agree. The way some people talk about A340's on here you would swear they had the economics of a DC8.
Iberia's real financial problem is it's labour costs and productivity.

The A330 is no doubt more efficient that the A340, but the fleet of A340's is not the main reason why Iberia are losing money.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8602 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
From the November 9 IAG presentation about IB restructuring under challenges they state:

"A340 fleet cost"

It's a problem on the routes where a twin can now operate more efficiently, granted. But in general if you have a problem flying an A340 on routes which ideally need a quad to operate, then it's not the aircraft which is a problem.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8593 times:

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 6):
was thinking the same thing. Maybe this has to do with the downsizing of the fleet? Once IB is on more solid footing, this route may reappear.

Although I basically agree with that view, I think there is a high risk of the route(s) being completely eliminated, if the day IB wants to return "discover" that the public is already doing fine in other airlines and doesn't have the intention to step back and fly IB again.
If LAN and TAM do a good job serving the requirements of this public, and do it with a good product ( as usual ) I doubt a significant number of this people would even think in flying IB again, specially considering that they are not precisely famous for having good in flight service.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8371 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8573 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):

In the future, to travel from Uruguay to Europe, the options will be flights with stopovers in Brazil ( TAM ), Argentina ( AR ), or Chile ( LAN ).

A while ago there was a lot of talk about who the winners and losers would be from the LAN/TAM merger. It's starting to look like IB will be the biggest loser, ironically enough.


User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 938 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7094 times:

According to Ch-aviation.ch http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/airline.php?cha=IB, they are also valuating whether to cut PTY, GUA, SAL and GYE.

Quote:
26NOV2012: Iberia expected to drop some Caribbean routes

Iberia (IB, Madrid Barajas (MAD)) is widely expected by Spanish media outlets to cancel its routes from Madrid Barajas (MAD) to Havana José Marti International (HAV), San Juan Luis Muñoz Marin International (SJU) and Santo Domingo Las Américas (SDQ) from its network as part of its restructuring plan. It is reportedly also currently evaluating whether to cancel its routes to Guatemala City La Aurora International (GUA), Guayaquil José Joaquín de Olmdeo International (GYE), Panamá City Tocumen International (PTY) and San Salvador Cuscatlán International (SAL).

So, if I am not missing anything, they have cut in LATAM:

COR
FOR
MVD
REC

They might cut:

HAV
SDQ
SJU

They are valuating to cut:

GUA
GYE
PTY
SAL

Only 9 "safe" remaining destinations in LATAM:

BOG
CCS
EZE
GIG
GRU
MEX
SCL
SJO
UIO


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1924 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6953 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 15):
Only 9 "safe" remaining destinations in LATAM:

This is pretty sad IMO, these Central and South American routes should be IB's bread and butter routes being the geographically, culturally and economically (in the context of Spain's economic ties to the region) ideal carrier to serve that part of the world. TAP has been successfully able to grow it's network to Brazil, one would think IB would be able to do the same to LATAM, hope they get their house in order soon!


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6812 times:
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Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 15):
GYE

If IB dropped GYE they will have to drop UIO as well since the flight is routed as MAD-UIO-GYE-MAD. Quito's high altitude does not allow carriers to operate mid-haul and long-haul flights non-stop from UIO for obvious reasons.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6205 posts, RR: 30
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6811 times:
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Quoting delta2ual (Reply 6):
I would think the airline of Spain would do well in all of South America (except maybe Brazil).

Only If they are the only nonstop option. The elephant in the room not being mentioned is that IB has a so-so hard product and terrible service. People fly IB because they have no choice or because they don´t know better. High yielding traffic does not fly IB and unless they better their service, that traffic will still elude them. Thus, I don´t think they´ll be able to improve their finances, if they don´t improve radically in that area. It doesn´t matter wether they get A330s, 787s or free fuel (joking there)

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 13):
If LAN and TAM do a good job serving the requirements of this public, and do it with a good product ( as usual ) I doubt a significant number of this people would even think in flying IB again, specially considering that they are not precisely famous for having good in flight service.

I´m not so sure. Of course LAN´s and TAM´s product is years ahead of IB´s but connections at GRU with the provided schedule up-thread are terribly inconvenient and tiring. Going to SCL is almost a 2 1/2 detour to the WEST. And really, who would choose AR through EZE? (another reasonble option) they are worse than IB. If IB comes back it´ll have a nice captive market. Low yield, perhaps, but still. It´s sad and telling that now, being the sole carrier non-stop to Europe thay can´t make a buck on the route. However, If somebody else starts a nonstop MVD-Europe, then IB probably wouldn´t stand a chance.



MGGS
User currently offlineRAGAZZO777 From Uruguay, joined Jul 2010, 585 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6676 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 15):
Only 9 "safe" remaining destinations in LATAM:

BOG
CCS
EZE
GIG
GRU
MEX
SCL
SJO
UIO

Add LIM to that list. LIM is, alongside BOG, EZE, GRU and MEX, one of the very few long-haul Latin American destinations that IB has been flying more than once daily to.


.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 17):
Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 15):
GYE

If IB dropped GYE they will have to drop UIO as well since the flight is routed as MAD-UIO-GYE-MAD.

I guess IB must be evaluating to operate out of Quito's brand new airport.



JESÚS, TE AMO !!
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6205 posts, RR: 30
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6657 times:
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Quoting SCL767 (Reply 17):
If IB dropped GYE they will have to drop UIO as well since the flight is routed as MAD-UIO-GYE-MAD. Quito's high altitude does not allow carriers to operate mid-haul and long-haul flights non-stop from UIO for obvious reasons.

Won´t that change with the new airport? Legitimate question. I would think one of the reasons for the new infrastructure was to decouple UIO from GYE.



MGGS
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6643 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):
Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):

In the future, to travel from Uruguay to Europe, the options will be flights with stopovers in Brazil ( TAM ), Argentina ( AR ), or Chile ( LAN ).

A while ago there was a lot of talk about who the winners and losers would be from the LAN/TAM merger. It's starting to look like IB will be the biggest loser, ironically enough.

There is another point to this: ATI and a JV with AA. Iberia no longer needs to serve the smaller secondary markets non-stop now that it has ATI with AA. Three daily Miami-Madrid and daily Miami-Barcelona service feed the smaller destinations via Miami.



a.
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6518 times:

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 19):
I guess IB must be evaluating to operate out of Quito's brand new airport.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 20):
Won´t that change with the new airport? Legitimate question. I would think one of the reasons for the new infrastructure was to decouple UIO from GYE.

With a 4,100m runway an A340-300/600 shouldn't have any issues making it the 5,500 miles to MAD non stop; the new airport is 400m lower and broadly similar to MEX in terms of how performance will be limited. But I don't know what obstacles there are in the departure path to say for sure.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 938 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6392 times:

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 19):

True, I had forgot LIM, which is very unlikely to be stopped (fast growing economy with business and VFR ties Spain-Peru as you probably know better   ).


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6238 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 18):
However, If somebody else starts a nonstop MVD-Europe, then IB probably wouldn´t stand a chance.

I'm not sure about the legal aspect of this ( since the Uruguayan government changes its mind every day, one day they talk about Open Skies, the next day about subsidize a new PU with exclusive rights for some routes, the next day go back to Open Skies... ), but if LA or JJ can start a non stop service MVD-MAD ( the government could allow this thinking in the fact that there is a big loss of money for the country due to tourism going to other places and lack of connectivity for business ), I agree with you, is basically impossible for IB to be a relevant player again, unless they make deep, deep changes in service and public image.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
25 AR385 : They ought to allow another carrier to fly MVD-Europe. A country like Uruguay ought to have at least one direct flight to Europe. It´s not fair to t
26 SCL767 : That is not going to happen period. Since PU collapsed LA/JJ have added three additional daily flights into MVD. PAX do have the option of connecting
27 AR385 : From the article cited by the OP: "El jerarca explicó que la ocupación de los vuelos es de 86%" Trans: "LF is 86%" So: Via EZE: As long as it´s not
28 ferminbrif : can you please explain a little bit more about this??? I don´t get it. Thanks a lot.
29 SCQ83 : MAD-MVD 6,166 mi According to GCMap, MAD-GRU-MVD is (incredibly) exactly above the GCM: MAD-GRU-MVD 6,166 mi (+0.0%) Rio and Buenos Aires might work
30 AR385 : Simplyfing: It´s all about "Yield Management" You can have a full flight but if it´s full due to cheap fares and no Premium Traffic (J class being
31 AR385 : Sure. Taking in mind only the distance. You should also consider the commute times between different airports (AEP-EZE) and the connection times. In
32 SCQ83 : Aerolineas (Austral) also flies MVD-EZE. No need to change airports in BUE.
33 AR385 : Yes. You are right. But, the only MVD-EZE flight arrives into EZE at around 21:00 hrs. All your flights EZE-Europe are long gone by then. You will ne
34 SCL767 : LAN's priority is to enhance the synergies from the combination with TAM. What would LAN gain by opening a new route to Europe via MVD with the 787s
35 AR385 : For starters, a higher fare. The current IB MVD-MAD return for December is $948 USD, while going MVD-MAD through GRU with TAM the fare is $1,704 So L
36 SCL767 : Look at the fares from destinations such as SCL, LIM, GRU, GIG, etc. to certain destinations in the U.S. Right now the economy in Spain and Europe in
37 AR385 : And how is that relevant to MVD-MAD? Fantastic news. However, you are not adressing the topic.
38 SCL767 : LATAM generates more profits from its routes to the U.S. Why should LAN deploy its a/c on a low-yielding route to Europe when the a/c could make a pr
39 AR385 : Because it has a LF of 86%. And it will be a MONOPOLY route. While IB can´t make it work because of a variety of reasons, some of which I´ve explai
40 RAGAZZO777 : Do Chilean carriers have Fifth Freedom Rights via MVD ?
41 eta unknown : I don't see what the problem is with this option- at least you're going in the right direction.
42 AR385 : The problem, that you don´t see is below: If you use the IB MAD 6825-GRU connecting to the JJ 8046 GRU-MVD you are going to spend 3 hours and 25 min
43 SCL767 : This is the schedule starting in February: IB6825 MAD 00:25 GRU 07:35 JJ8046 GRU 09:25 MVD 13:00 JJ8031 MVD 12:45 GRU 14:10 IB6824 GRU 15:55 MAD 06:2
44 AR385 : Well, you provided the scheduled I based my response on reply 42. Now you´ve changed your information. So you were wrong in the first place. Still,
45 r2rho : Thank you for speaking against this a.net-myth even at the risk of being flamed. Indeed, IB has a core cost base problem, not a fleet problem. Of cou
46 SCL767 : Actually that's the Southern Winter schedule. That's laughable! I bet those pax traveling between MAD and COR or MDZ via SCL find the transit time at
47 HB-IWC : If every 2-hour connecting time between flights in airline hubs around the world would be a problem, there would not be many connections left. A 2- t
48 Post contains links and images Gonzalo : Uruguayan President Mr. José Mujica said he wants LAN (or COPA ¡? ) doing the route MVD-MAD, over the Argentinian BQB ( which only operates turbopro
49 Post contains links 757gb : He keeps shooting off his mouth without having a clue... When they closed PLUNA and auctioned the airplanes they were sure people would stand in line
50 Post contains images PlymSpotter : UX taking up MAD-MVD three or four times weekly would not surprise me at all. Dan
51 PDPsol : The issue here, as others have clearly indicated, is having a NON-STOP flight MVD-MAD, not some connection via, GRU, SCL or wherever. The market is l
52 airbazar : LF is irrelevant. IB is probably charging less than it costs to operate the route just so they can put butts in the seats because if they raise the f
53 AR385 : Thank you. That´s the point I´ve been trying to make all along. You are right. Load factor may be irrelevant in this case. However, I do not think
54 757gb : As I unserstand it an A332 needs approximately 2600 m of runway (just researching Anet posts, could be wrong). MVD has 3200 m. I wonder how well the A
55 airbazar : MAD-MVD is the definition of a long and thin route which are inherently difficult routes to make money on. With the withdrawl of IB from the market,
56 clydenairways : IB will be back on the route before you know it once they have their cost base sorted out. They have huge legacy costs and poor productivity still wi
57 PDPsol : No incentive? What about the MVD market, is that not an incentive? No one "controls" the deep SA market, as you characterize. Should the government i
58 airbazar : I hope you're right but I'm not holding my breath for it. You can only cut labor costs so much. But there are other pieces to this equation: the A340
59 PlunaCRJ : It was always my understanding that MVD is, regretfully, quite a high yielding destination. This is, of course, consequence of the frightening lack o
60 yellowtail : IF you are selling your seats below cost (generally because of competition, you lose money. IF you own a hamburger joint and you are selling your bur
61 mah4546 : There are so many factors that go into determining yield and a route's profitability. Specifically using your example: 1) Overall market size - large
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