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Why Is There No DL Eastbound LHR Morning Flight?  
User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3094 posts, RR: 4
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12130 times:

DL offers no morning service from the U.S. to LHR, and I am wondering why that is. For example:

AA has morning departures to LHR from ORD and JFK;

UA has morning departures from IAD and EWR;

BA has morning departures from BOS and JFK,; and

VS has morning departures from EWR and JFK.

The DL global network is both expansive and impressive, but this to me seems like an odd outlier given the other offerings on this route.

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12107 times:

I think a previous discussion mentioned that DL is kind of crowded out there. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember someone mentioning that the day flights are pretty much sewn up between the OW JV and VS, plus a few more going to UA. My guess would be that it just a lot of capacity for a daytime LHR flight given who takes it.

User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3129 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12109 times:

From what I understand these morning flights tend to be lower-yielding than the overnight flights. It could be that DL simply has better places to put it's aircraft. The rotation would also be time consuming. Leaving the aircraft at LHR overnight would take more than 24 hours of one aircraft, requiring a bit more than 1 aircraft for the rotation.

That said, maybe we will see DL try something like this with a 752 on JFK-LHR. Night slots at LHR aren't that hard to come by, although the returning morning slot may be harder to get.

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlinerichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3762 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11983 times:

If they left BOS early enough, could they be back the same day?

User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3837 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11838 times:

Quoting richardw (Reply 3):
If they left BOS early enough, could they be back the same day?

You do the math. BOS-LHR is a little more than 6h, so if you leave BOS at 6AM you'd be in LHR after 5PM, then you turn the plane and be in the air again at 7PM, arriving back at BOS at 8PM or 9PM the same day. I guess it could be done.

Soren   



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineGSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11780 times:

Crazy as it may sound, I wonder if there would be a market for a daylight ATL-LHR on a 757, allowing for connections from the first bank of flights throughout the Southeast. Speaking of 757 TATL from ATL, I've also been intrigued by the idea of a (seasonal?) daily 757 ATL-BHX (almost the exact same distance as CVG-AMS, which Delta did with a 757).

User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11682 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 2):
From what I understand these morning flights tend to be lower-yielding than the overnight flights.

I dont know who told you that but they are WRONG. Day flights have much higher yields and I know this because I worked at both AA and UA and saw the P&Ls

Quoting richardw (Reply 3):
If they left BOS early enough, could they be back the same day?

No, day trips require more than a full airplane day. Thus they are more expensive to fly than night trips (ownership costs, not operating costs) and require higher RASMs.

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 5):
Crazy as it may sound, I wonder if there would be a market for a daylight ATL-LHR on a 757,

Why??? There is no real competition for DL on ATL-LHR and not much business traffic. The reason you see daylight trips from NYC and ORD is there is LOTS of competition and LOTS of business traffic. Thus a daylight trip caters to business travelers and gives you something the competition doesnt (UA has no ORD daylight flight).

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 5):
I've also been intrigued by the idea of a (seasonal?) daily 757 ATL-BHX

That might work


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11658 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 2):
From what I understand these morning flights tend to be lower-yielding than the overnight flights.

Daylight flights from the USA to Europe are less favorable than overnight flights and demand is way smaller than for overnight flights.

Reasons:
- The flight takes one (work) day, as after arrival, you'll need to go to your hotel straight away (for O&D-travelers)
- Morning departures have few connection possibilities at the point of origin
- Evening arrivals have few connection possibilities at the point of destination

Now BA/AA are market leader at LHR and can connect to (some) destinations.

DL (and AF/KL) have no daylight eastbound flights at all, actually. Even the busiest route (JFK-CDG, 6x flights) depart between 16:50 and 23:20 from LHR, and thereby arrive between 06:00 and 12:30 at CDG. The same is true for other trunk routes in the joint venture (JFK, ATL, DTW, MSP to AMS and CDG).

For BA/AA, they only have 2 daylight flights compared to 10 overnight flights.


User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3837 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11563 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):
No, day trips require more than a full airplane day.

Could you elaborate? As I wrote above:

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 4):
BOS-LHR is a little more than 6h, so if you leave BOS at 6AM you'd be in LHR after 5PM, then you turn the plane and be in the air again at 7PM, arriving back at BOS at 8PM or 9PM the same day.

How is that more than 1 airplane day? Your plane is back after 15h no matter which way around you do this. This is for BOS-LON but NYC would be similar, maybe 17h.

Soren   



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3094 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11508 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):
Day flights have much higher yields and I know this because I worked at both AA and UA and saw the P&Ls

Out of curiosity, why are the yields higher?


Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 2):
The rotation would also be time consuming. Leaving the aircraft at LHR overnight would take more than 24 hours of one aircraft, requiring a bit more than 1 aircraft for the rotation.

That said, maybe we will see DL try something like this with a 752 on JFK-LHR. Night slots at LHR aren't that hard to come by, although the returning morning slot may be harder to get.

I guess I understand that logic and the lack of slots, and I know DL likes to zig (and has been very successful) when everyone else zags, but it seems to me that--in the NYC market anyway--they almost have to offer it since their two major competitors in the market offer it.

[Edited 2012-11-26 13:32:00]

User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11423 times:

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 8):
Could you elaborate? As I wrote above:

Sure: You leave JFK at 0800 arrive LHR at about 2000 GMT ( I am estimating here). 90 min turn and youre ready to leave at 2130 back to JFK at 2330 or so. Ok I guess you can do it from JFK/EWR but not ORD or IAD. Those puts you too late back into ORD/IAD to connect to anything and unlike JFK for IAD and ORD you need connections.

But basically the LHR arrival will be too late to turn back to USA. Thus the return can leave LHR at 0800 but when it arrives back to USA, the USA day light departure has left to LHR about 3 hours ago. So you need roughly 1.3333 airplanes to fly a daylight. From ORD or IAD it would be more like 1.5

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 8):
BOS-LHR is a little more than 6h, so if you leave BOS at 6AM you'd be in LHR after 5PM, then you turn the plane and be in the air again at 7PM, arriving back at BOS at 8PM or 9PM the same day.

That's not a realistic schedule.

For BA they can do a BOS-LHR day trip with one plane because they have so much loose schedule time in LHR I am betting. But their day trip arrives in LHR at 1925 while the last flight to BOS departs LHR at 1915. So it can be done with one plane if you tinker with the LHR aircraft schedules (slots permitting). AA couldnt do BOS-LHR with one full plane with the current BA schedule.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5319 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11347 times:

I also believe these flights carry alot of conecting passegers going eastwards from LHR

ie JFK-LHR-DEL.BOM/HYD/TLV for example. BA's US Day fligths are definately timed to connect India with the US.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11320 times:

Quoting Catiii (Reply 9):
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):
Day flights have much higher yields and I know this because I worked at both AA and UA and saw the P&Ls

Out of curiosity, why are the yields higher?

Probably at least partly because the relatively few people who really want a daytime flight are less price-sensitive and are willing to pay higher fares since there aren't many such flights.


User currently offlineL1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1685 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11219 times:
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I prefer a daylight flight, because most overnight flights arrive early in the morning, which is usually too early to check into your hotel. With a daylight flight, this is not a problem.

Bob Bradley



Fly Eastern's Golden Falcon DC-7B
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11219 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):
Day flights have much higher yields and I know this because I worked at both AA and UA and saw the P&Ls

Makes one wonder why UA is downgauging UA922, the morning IAD-LHR flight, to a 757 beginning at the end of March 2013.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11151 times:

Quoting L1011 (Reply 13):
I prefer a daylight flight, because most overnight flights arrive early in the morning, which is usually too early to check into your hotel. With a daylight flight, this is not a problem.

Not necessarily since you have the option of paying for the previous night at the hotel to guarantee it will be available for early check-in. You end up paying the same thing as taking a daytime flight which also means paying for another hotel night, as well as wasting the entire previous day -- either unproductive work time or having to take one more vacation day.


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11093 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):
I dont know who told you that but they are WRONG. Day flights have much higher yields and I know this because I worked at both AA and UA and saw the P&Ls
Quoting Catiii (Reply 9):
Out of curiosity, why are the yields higher?
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
Probably at least partly because the relatively few people who really want a daytime flight are less price-sensitive and are willing to pay higher fares since there aren't many such flights.

I expect that it's also because it's mostly O&D. O&D is typically higher yielding than connecting. So for average fares (because of the lack of connecting passengers), they might be slightly higher but it's a niche market. But I would be very much surprised if the average yield for O&D passengers JFK-LHR is higher on daylight than overnight flights.

Quoting anstar (Reply 11):
I also believe these flights carry alot of conecting passegers going eastwards from LHR
ie JFK-LHR-DEL.BOM/HYD/TLV for example. BA's US Day fligths are definately timed to connect India with the US.

USA - India is very price-sensitive and low yielding. There is much capacity, almost unlimited demand but passengers are very price sensitive. Connecting to India flights is a bonus, but you can't pay the bills on USA - India traffic.

Besides that, many Europe - India flights (AF, KL, BA's other flights) have a morning departure from Europe.

Quoting L1011 (Reply 13):
I prefer a daylight flight, because most overnight flights arrive early in the morning, which is usually too early to check into your hotel. With a daylight flight, this is not a problem.

This is indeed the key argument for passengers choosing a daytime flight. People who can't sleep on board aircraft are also attractive. But looking at all schedules, you're representing a minority   (though significant enough for a handful of daylight US - London flights)


User currently offlineGSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11059 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):
Thus a daylight trip caters to business travelers and gives you something the competition doesnt (UA has no ORD daylight flight).

IIRC, United did at one point have (or they announced) a daylight ORD-LHR. I can't exactly remember when, though my vague recollection is that September 11th ended it.


User currently offlinecokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1190 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10927 times:

I know Delta tried for a short time a JFK-LHR Daytime flight Who knows, it may come back.

User currently offlineGSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10879 times:

And, after looking, I'm right that UA did at least announce a daylight ORD-LHR. Announced Sept 6th, 2001 to commence service on October 31st, 2001. Introductory round trip fare was $299.

Schedule was

UA948 ORD-LHR 0830 2225 763
UA949 LHR-ORD 1320 1630 763

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-new-early-departure-71957087.html


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21881 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10843 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 2):
From what I understand these morning flights tend to be lower-yielding than the overnight flights. It could be that DL simply has better places to put it's aircraft. The rotation would also be time consuming. Leaving the aircraft at LHR overnight would take more than 24 hours of one aircraft, requiring a bit more than 1 aircraft for the rotation.

The late departure LHR-JFK would probably be very attractive, but generally you'd have a harder time filling the morning JFK-LHR. That's what killed AF's morning JFK-CDG flight.

Quoting richardw (Reply 3):
If they left BOS early enough, could they be back the same day?

Yes. Leave BOS or JFK at 0700, get into LHR at 1900 or 1930, depart at 2100 and get back to BOS or JFK at 2330 or so.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10522 times:
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Another reason for the potential attractiveness of a daylight flight is that the flight time between the northeast USA and LHR is too short to sleep decently anyway.

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10284 times:

Quoting Catiii (Thread starter):
DL offers no morning service from the U.S. to LHR, and I am wondering why that is. For example:

AA has morning departures to LHR from ORD and JFK;

UA has morning departures from IAD and EWR;

BA has morning departures from BOS and JFK,; and

VS has morning departures from EWR and JFK.

The DL global network is both expansive and impressive, but this to me seems like an odd outlier given the other offerings on this route.

I think that you have answered your own question. The question should be, is there a need for another daylight flight to head to LHR?



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21881 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9750 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 22):
The question should be, is there a need for another daylight flight to head to LHR?

Especially from an airline that doesn't have a historically strong LHR presence.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9428 times:

Quoting L1011 (Reply 13):
I prefer a daylight flight, because most overnight flights arrive early in the morning, which is usually too early to check into your hotel. With a daylight flight, this is not a problem.

No, you miss the whole point. Business people are not regular human beings. They can work a full day in NYC, then hop on a plane around 8pm, sleep maybe 4 hours, then upon landing in London, be totally ready to perform a full day's worth of business, checking into their hotel after the end of the business day in London. /sarcasm off

These overnight flights always seem to me to be better for the airlines and not for the humans (passengers) who fly them. I've done both the daytime and the overnight and there's no comparison - the daylight flight is the way to go!

Back on topic, I think there's just too much already on NYC-LON for DL to try one of the daylight flights again.


25 bobloblaw : I think that is true to BOS and JFK, but AA in ORD did about 50% connecting on its daylight and late evening returns Loads might be weak and UA might
26 lxa333 : LHR-JFK/EWR is basically the only transatlantic route where you will be able to find early morning and evening flights from jfk to lhr, thanks to busi
27 cedarjet : Don't forget Air Canada have a daytripper as well, AC868 d YYZ 0815 a LHR 2030, which positions the aircraft (767-300ER) for the AC 869 which d LHR 09
28 dwcontroller : I took this flight about three years ago. Left around 9am and got in around 9pm. With me as a non-rev included the flight departed with 35 guests on-
29 brilondon : The daylight flight just doesn't do it for me. The overnight flight reduces the need for a hotel room. I also like the fact I can connect to other fl
30 OOer : Delta used to have a 9am departure from JFK to LHR when the first LHR slots were given out a couple of years ago. Even then, the loads were horrible!
31 Catiii : So putting aside AA which can then connect pax onward through LHR via their OW alliance, what is UA doing that is making it work out of EWR and IAD th
32 brilondon : You can connect with other airlines as well, not just OW. I use to fly with AC as well as DL and find that it is a good Star Alliance connection hub.
33 N62NA : On connections, sure, the daylight flight isn't a very good option. But for those ending their trip in London, it's much less physically and mentally
34 jfk777 : Delta finally has a very viable schedule to LHR from JFK with 3 daily flights. Why mess with a morning flights with no feed. AA, BA and VA serve the m
35 airbazar : I don't buy the argument that daytime flights are less attractive to passengers and so on. You always lose a day, whether it be on the eastbound leg o
36 jfk777 : There are 3 time zones between LAX and JFK, so a flights clock time is about 9 hours: a 3PM LAX departure arrives at midnight in JFK. ITS 12 hours cl
37 Cubsrule : You are ignoring, I think, the fact that a lot of business travelers - including me - look to minimize the amount of time away from home even if that
38 Richcandy : There must be a market for daytime eastbound services, otherwise there wouldn't be so many flights. My view is that its much more pleasant to get off
39 N62NA : Not ignoring, but looking at the other factors. Lack of sleep = not able to perform at 100% = not good for business.
40 jfk777 : There is a limited market for the AM daylight flights to LHR. These day flights have been tried to CDG by TWA and recently AF, they were dudds. Its a
41 Cubsrule : The whole thing is a balance. Different factors are more important on different trips. As far as how people value the different factors in a macro se
42 N62NA : But, as mentioned here: I agree - the "market" is being primarily driven by the airlines on this one and therefor yes, it does "disagree" with me.
43 brilondon : If that were the case, then there would be a lot more demand for daylight flights, especially in summer time. I find that it is more taxing on a dayt
44 Cubsrule : How are the airlines driving the market? Are you suggesting that they are actively subverting their yields on daytime flights?
45 Catiii : And be that as it may, when you're trying to "win New York" as DL is are they at a disadvantage by not offering this option at least once daily from
46 brilondon : Maybe DL doesn't see it that way. I don't see the demand for these flights and neither do many airlines. Considering how many flights there are every
47 N62NA : They've done this for decades, by dumping all their capacity eastbound on overnight flights. It's become "established" in the consciousness of the tr
48 Viscount724 : AF also had a daytime 707 in the 1970s which ended when Concorde service started. I flew on that 707 once JFK-CDG. It was less than half full. They o
49 Cubsrule : And despite this alleged "capacity dump," yields are still higher overnight. That tells us something, no? Perhaps. If you have some evidence that the
50 factsonly : Back to possible TATL options for Delta. Just a crazy thought. The SKYTEAM Joint Venture could consider operating Delta B757s on day-light TATL flight
51 Post contains images N62NA : Not really in relation to my point. It's just common sense. If you get on a plane at 7pm NYC time (and you are a resident of North America, accustome
52 Cubsrule : There is no "common sense" of jet lag. It affects everyone a little bit differently. As I said, from the US to Europe, I've always had a much easier
53 Post contains images N62NA : Well, I suppose you and I have beaten this into the ground at this point. We'll let anyone else reading who cares make up their own mind.
54 airbazar : So which one Is it? Since yields are highly guarded secrets I guess we'll never know. Never the less, lower yields may not be a valid indication of d
55 factsonly : We could add more possibilities to this new DL Day-Light Eastbound TATL plan, thus improving the economics with new connections: - EWR 06.20 - 20.00
56 Richcandy : is that in part due to the slightly longer flight time plus an extra hours time difference?
57 jfk777 : IT could be that, but people many times think London and Paris are markets of similar size. That is pure fiction, London is about 4 times bigger then
58 Catiii : Wow, hadn't realized that. Good info.
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