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Why Is There No DL Eastbound LHR Morning Flight?  
User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3031 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 11969 times:

DL offers no morning service from the U.S. to LHR, and I am wondering why that is. For example:

AA has morning departures to LHR from ORD and JFK;

UA has morning departures from IAD and EWR;

BA has morning departures from BOS and JFK,; and

VS has morning departures from EWR and JFK.

The DL global network is both expansive and impressive, but this to me seems like an odd outlier given the other offerings on this route.

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1577 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 11946 times:

I think a previous discussion mentioned that DL is kind of crowded out there. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember someone mentioning that the day flights are pretty much sewn up between the OW JV and VS, plus a few more going to UA. My guess would be that it just a lot of capacity for a daytime LHR flight given who takes it.

User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3128 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 11948 times:

From what I understand these morning flights tend to be lower-yielding than the overnight flights. It could be that DL simply has better places to put it's aircraft. The rotation would also be time consuming. Leaving the aircraft at LHR overnight would take more than 24 hours of one aircraft, requiring a bit more than 1 aircraft for the rotation.

That said, maybe we will see DL try something like this with a 752 on JFK-LHR. Night slots at LHR aren't that hard to come by, although the returning morning slot may be harder to get.

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlinerichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 11822 times:

If they left BOS early enough, could they be back the same day?

User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3822 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 11677 times:

Quoting richardw (Reply 3):
If they left BOS early enough, could they be back the same day?

You do the math. BOS-LHR is a little more than 6h, so if you leave BOS at 6AM you'd be in LHR after 5PM, then you turn the plane and be in the air again at 7PM, arriving back at BOS at 8PM or 9PM the same day. I guess it could be done.

Soren   



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineGSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 11619 times:

Crazy as it may sound, I wonder if there would be a market for a daylight ATL-LHR on a 757, allowing for connections from the first bank of flights throughout the Southeast. Speaking of 757 TATL from ATL, I've also been intrigued by the idea of a (seasonal?) daily 757 ATL-BHX (almost the exact same distance as CVG-AMS, which Delta did with a 757).

User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11521 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 2):
From what I understand these morning flights tend to be lower-yielding than the overnight flights.

I dont know who told you that but they are WRONG. Day flights have much higher yields and I know this because I worked at both AA and UA and saw the P&Ls

Quoting richardw (Reply 3):
If they left BOS early enough, could they be back the same day?

No, day trips require more than a full airplane day. Thus they are more expensive to fly than night trips (ownership costs, not operating costs) and require higher RASMs.

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 5):
Crazy as it may sound, I wonder if there would be a market for a daylight ATL-LHR on a 757,

Why??? There is no real competition for DL on ATL-LHR and not much business traffic. The reason you see daylight trips from NYC and ORD is there is LOTS of competition and LOTS of business traffic. Thus a daylight trip caters to business travelers and gives you something the competition doesnt (UA has no ORD daylight flight).

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 5):
I've also been intrigued by the idea of a (seasonal?) daily 757 ATL-BHX

That might work


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11497 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 2):
From what I understand these morning flights tend to be lower-yielding than the overnight flights.

Daylight flights from the USA to Europe are less favorable than overnight flights and demand is way smaller than for overnight flights.

Reasons:
- The flight takes one (work) day, as after arrival, you'll need to go to your hotel straight away (for O&D-travelers)
- Morning departures have few connection possibilities at the point of origin
- Evening arrivals have few connection possibilities at the point of destination

Now BA/AA are market leader at LHR and can connect to (some) destinations.

DL (and AF/KL) have no daylight eastbound flights at all, actually. Even the busiest route (JFK-CDG, 6x flights) depart between 16:50 and 23:20 from LHR, and thereby arrive between 06:00 and 12:30 at CDG. The same is true for other trunk routes in the joint venture (JFK, ATL, DTW, MSP to AMS and CDG).

For BA/AA, they only have 2 daylight flights compared to 10 overnight flights.


User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3822 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11402 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):
No, day trips require more than a full airplane day.

Could you elaborate? As I wrote above:

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 4):
BOS-LHR is a little more than 6h, so if you leave BOS at 6AM you'd be in LHR after 5PM, then you turn the plane and be in the air again at 7PM, arriving back at BOS at 8PM or 9PM the same day.

How is that more than 1 airplane day? Your plane is back after 15h no matter which way around you do this. This is for BOS-LON but NYC would be similar, maybe 17h.

Soren   



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3031 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11347 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):
Day flights have much higher yields and I know this because I worked at both AA and UA and saw the P&Ls

Out of curiosity, why are the yields higher?


Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 2):
The rotation would also be time consuming. Leaving the aircraft at LHR overnight would take more than 24 hours of one aircraft, requiring a bit more than 1 aircraft for the rotation.

That said, maybe we will see DL try something like this with a 752 on JFK-LHR. Night slots at LHR aren't that hard to come by, although the returning morning slot may be harder to get.

I guess I understand that logic and the lack of slots, and I know DL likes to zig (and has been very successful) when everyone else zags, but it seems to me that--in the NYC market anyway--they almost have to offer it since their two major competitors in the market offer it.

[Edited 2012-11-26 13:32:00]

User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11262 times:

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 8):
Could you elaborate? As I wrote above:

Sure: You leave JFK at 0800 arrive LHR at about 2000 GMT ( I am estimating here). 90 min turn and youre ready to leave at 2130 back to JFK at 2330 or so. Ok I guess you can do it from JFK/EWR but not ORD or IAD. Those puts you too late back into ORD/IAD to connect to anything and unlike JFK for IAD and ORD you need connections.

But basically the LHR arrival will be too late to turn back to USA. Thus the return can leave LHR at 0800 but when it arrives back to USA, the USA day light departure has left to LHR about 3 hours ago. So you need roughly 1.3333 airplanes to fly a daylight. From ORD or IAD it would be more like 1.5

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 8):
BOS-LHR is a little more than 6h, so if you leave BOS at 6AM you'd be in LHR after 5PM, then you turn the plane and be in the air again at 7PM, arriving back at BOS at 8PM or 9PM the same day.

That's not a realistic schedule.

For BA they can do a BOS-LHR day trip with one plane because they have so much loose schedule time in LHR I am betting. But their day trip arrives in LHR at 1925 while the last flight to BOS departs LHR at 1915. So it can be done with one plane if you tinker with the LHR aircraft schedules (slots permitting). AA couldnt do BOS-LHR with one full plane with the current BA schedule.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11186 times:

I also believe these flights carry alot of conecting passegers going eastwards from LHR

ie JFK-LHR-DEL.BOM/HYD/TLV for example. BA's US Day fligths are definately timed to connect India with the US.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25346 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11159 times:

Quoting Catiii (Reply 9):
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):
Day flights have much higher yields and I know this because I worked at both AA and UA and saw the P&Ls

Out of curiosity, why are the yields higher?

Probably at least partly because the relatively few people who really want a daytime flight are less price-sensitive and are willing to pay higher fares since there aren't many such flights.


User currently offlineL1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1674 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11058 times:
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I prefer a daylight flight, because most overnight flights arrive early in the morning, which is usually too early to check into your hotel. With a daylight flight, this is not a problem.

Bob Bradley



Fly Eastern's Golden Falcon DC-7B
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11058 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):
Day flights have much higher yields and I know this because I worked at both AA and UA and saw the P&Ls

Makes one wonder why UA is downgauging UA922, the morning IAD-LHR flight, to a 757 beginning at the end of March 2013.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25346 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10990 times:

Quoting L1011 (Reply 13):
I prefer a daylight flight, because most overnight flights arrive early in the morning, which is usually too early to check into your hotel. With a daylight flight, this is not a problem.

Not necessarily since you have the option of paying for the previous night at the hotel to guarantee it will be available for early check-in. You end up paying the same thing as taking a daytime flight which also means paying for another hotel night, as well as wasting the entire previous day -- either unproductive work time or having to take one more vacation day.


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10932 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):
I dont know who told you that but they are WRONG. Day flights have much higher yields and I know this because I worked at both AA and UA and saw the P&Ls
Quoting Catiii (Reply 9):
Out of curiosity, why are the yields higher?
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
Probably at least partly because the relatively few people who really want a daytime flight are less price-sensitive and are willing to pay higher fares since there aren't many such flights.

I expect that it's also because it's mostly O&D. O&D is typically higher yielding than connecting. So for average fares (because of the lack of connecting passengers), they might be slightly higher but it's a niche market. But I would be very much surprised if the average yield for O&D passengers JFK-LHR is higher on daylight than overnight flights.

Quoting anstar (Reply 11):
I also believe these flights carry alot of conecting passegers going eastwards from LHR
ie JFK-LHR-DEL.BOM/HYD/TLV for example. BA's US Day fligths are definately timed to connect India with the US.

USA - India is very price-sensitive and low yielding. There is much capacity, almost unlimited demand but passengers are very price sensitive. Connecting to India flights is a bonus, but you can't pay the bills on USA - India traffic.

Besides that, many Europe - India flights (AF, KL, BA's other flights) have a morning departure from Europe.

Quoting L1011 (Reply 13):
I prefer a daylight flight, because most overnight flights arrive early in the morning, which is usually too early to check into your hotel. With a daylight flight, this is not a problem.

This is indeed the key argument for passengers choosing a daytime flight. People who can't sleep on board aircraft are also attractive. But looking at all schedules, you're representing a minority   (though significant enough for a handful of daylight US - London flights)


User currently offlineGSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10898 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):
Thus a daylight trip caters to business travelers and gives you something the competition doesnt (UA has no ORD daylight flight).

IIRC, United did at one point have (or they announced) a daylight ORD-LHR. I can't exactly remember when, though my vague recollection is that September 11th ended it.


User currently offlinecokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1184 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10766 times:

I know Delta tried for a short time a JFK-LHR Daytime flight Who knows, it may come back.

User currently offlineGSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10718 times:

And, after looking, I'm right that UA did at least announce a daylight ORD-LHR. Announced Sept 6th, 2001 to commence service on October 31st, 2001. Introductory round trip fare was $299.

Schedule was

UA948 ORD-LHR 0830 2225 763
UA949 LHR-ORD 1320 1630 763

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-new-early-departure-71957087.html


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10682 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 2):
From what I understand these morning flights tend to be lower-yielding than the overnight flights. It could be that DL simply has better places to put it's aircraft. The rotation would also be time consuming. Leaving the aircraft at LHR overnight would take more than 24 hours of one aircraft, requiring a bit more than 1 aircraft for the rotation.

The late departure LHR-JFK would probably be very attractive, but generally you'd have a harder time filling the morning JFK-LHR. That's what killed AF's morning JFK-CDG flight.

Quoting richardw (Reply 3):
If they left BOS early enough, could they be back the same day?

Yes. Leave BOS or JFK at 0700, get into LHR at 1900 or 1930, depart at 2100 and get back to BOS or JFK at 2330 or so.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 941 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10361 times:
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Another reason for the potential attractiveness of a daylight flight is that the flight time between the northeast USA and LHR is too short to sleep decently anyway.

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10123 times:

Quoting Catiii (Thread starter):
DL offers no morning service from the U.S. to LHR, and I am wondering why that is. For example:

AA has morning departures to LHR from ORD and JFK;

UA has morning departures from IAD and EWR;

BA has morning departures from BOS and JFK,; and

VS has morning departures from EWR and JFK.

The DL global network is both expansive and impressive, but this to me seems like an odd outlier given the other offerings on this route.

I think that you have answered your own question. The question should be, is there a need for another daylight flight to head to LHR?



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9589 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 22):
The question should be, is there a need for another daylight flight to head to LHR?

Especially from an airline that doesn't have a historically strong LHR presence.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4471 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9267 times:

Quoting L1011 (Reply 13):
I prefer a daylight flight, because most overnight flights arrive early in the morning, which is usually too early to check into your hotel. With a daylight flight, this is not a problem.

No, you miss the whole point. Business people are not regular human beings. They can work a full day in NYC, then hop on a plane around 8pm, sleep maybe 4 hours, then upon landing in London, be totally ready to perform a full day's worth of business, checking into their hotel after the end of the business day in London. /sarcasm off

These overnight flights always seem to me to be better for the airlines and not for the humans (passengers) who fly them. I've done both the daytime and the overnight and there's no comparison - the daylight flight is the way to go!

Back on topic, I think there's just too much already on NYC-LON for DL to try one of the daylight flights again.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9472 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 16):
I expect that it's also because it's mostly O&D. O&D is typically higher yielding than connecting.

I think that is true to BOS and JFK, but AA in ORD did about 50% connecting on its daylight and late evening returns

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
Makes one wonder why UA is downgauging UA922, the morning IAD-LHR flight, to a 757 beginning at the end of March 2013.

Loads might be weak and UA might need the 763 elsewhere for the summer 2013


User currently offlinelxa333 From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9348 times:

LHR-JFK/EWR is basically the only transatlantic route where you will be able to find early morning and evening flights from jfk to lhr, thanks to business travelers, my company which is in finance relies heavily on the morning ba flights jfk to london and it caters to us perfectly.


SWISSAIR-Worlds most refreshing airline
User currently onlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8114 posts, RR: 53
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 9292 times:

Don't forget Air Canada have a daytripper as well, AC868 d YYZ 0815 a LHR 2030, which positions the aircraft (767-300ER) for the AC 869 which d LHR 0900 a YYZ 1210. Both of these are excellent timings.

Anyone remember the first incarnation of their A319 service from St John's? That was a Daytripper that returned the same day - d YYT 1200 a LHR 2000, return was d LHR 2100 a YYT 0030+1, something along those lines. Hellish, esp the return, who wants to get to the hotel at 0130? Nowadays it has a more traditional Redeye schedule.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinedwcontroller From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7278 times:

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 18):

I know Delta tried for a short time a JFK-LHR Daytime flight Who knows, it may come back.

I took this flight about three years ago. Left around 9am and got in around 9pm. With me as a non-rev included the flight departed with 35 guests on-board a 763.



Best phrase to hear at the airport - "All standbys have been cleared and may board at this time"
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5715 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 24):
These overnight flights always seem to me to be better for the airlines and not for the humans (passengers) who fly them. I've done both the daytime and the overnight and there's no comparison - the daylight flight is the way to go!

The daylight flight just doesn't do it for me. The overnight flight reduces the need for a hotel room. I also like the fact I can connect to other flights without having the need to spend the night or wait for an eternity for my connections. You might also notice that the daylight flights do not have the demand of the overnight flights as evidenced by the aircraft the operate those flights.

[Edited 2012-11-27 09:12:03]


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1467 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5710 times:

Delta used to have a 9am departure from JFK to LHR when the first LHR slots were given out a couple of years ago. Even then, the loads were horrible!

Whenever I looked at the flights they were generally 80% full one way and about 40% full going back. You can't make money this way so the flight got the axe. The flight lasted maybe 1 year total.


User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3031 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5609 times:

So putting aside AA which can then connect pax onward through LHR via their OW alliance, what is UA doing that is making it work out of EWR and IAD that DL wasn't, or can't, do?

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5104 times:

Quoting Catiii (Reply 31):
So putting aside AA which can then connect pax onward through LHR via their OW alliance, what is UA doing that is making it work out of EWR and IAD that DL wasn't, or can't, do?

You can connect with other airlines as well, not just OW. I use to fly with AC as well as DL and find that it is a good Star Alliance connection hub. Flying from YYZ, I can connect with LH, Thai or Singapore easier than if I go through YVR. Coming from Canada that is.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4471 posts, RR: 7
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4763 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 29):
I also like the fact I can connect to other flights without having the need to spend the night or wait for an eternity for my connections.

On connections, sure, the daylight flight isn't a very good option. But for those ending their trip in London, it's much less physically and mentally taxing.


User currently onlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4330 times:
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Delta finally has a very viable schedule to LHR from JFK with 3 daily flights. Why mess with a morning flights with no feed. AA, BA and VA serve the morning demand well. Delta is NOT a force in the LHR market the way AA, BA and VA are, they serve it as part of their greater European strategy.

User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8379 posts, RR: 10
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3927 times:

I don't buy the argument that daytime flights are less attractive to passengers and so on. You always lose a day, whether it be on the eastbound leg or the west bound leg. There's no way around it. Also there are plenty of West Coast-East Coast daytime flights that like the eastbound TATL flights, cause you to lose a day. In fact, eastbound red-eyes don't appear to be very popular at all. There are also a lot of Eastbound daytime departures from Europe to the middle East and Asia. Those also waste a day.

At the end of the day, my opinion is that eastbound day time TATL flight are less enticing for the airlines because they don't fit the airlines' general operating model which is a lack of connections at both ends. But I suspect there are a slew of other operating considerations that need to be taken in account that i'm not privy to. One such issue is airport curfews if the flight is delayed even just an hour or two. But I do not think that lack of demand is the reason.


User currently onlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3896 times:
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Quoting airbazar (Reply 35):
At the end of the day, my opinion is that eastbound day time TATL flight are less enticing for the airlines because they don't fit the airlines' general operating model which is a lack of connections at both ends. But I suspect there are a slew of other operating considerations that need to be taken in account that i'm not privy to

There are 3 time zones between LAX and JFK, so a flights clock time is about 9 hours: a 3PM LAX departure arrives at midnight in JFK. ITS 12 hours clock time from JFK to LHR, 5 hour time difference, so a flight arrives 12 hours later then it departs. It would be inpractical for a flight to leave JFK after noon to arrive at LHR at midnight.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 35):
I don't buy the argument that daytime flights are less attractive to passengers and so on. You always lose a day, whether it be on the eastbound leg or the west bound leg. There's no way around it. Also there are plenty of West Coast-East Coast daytime flights that like the eastbound TATL flights, cause you to lose a day. In fact, eastbound red-eyes don't appear to be very popular at all.

The morning JFK to LHR flights stay on the ground at LHR all night ( if a US airline) and all night at JFK ( if BA or VA). Evening departures bring connections and early morning arrivals provide connections at LHR with planes on the ground for only 90 minutes or 2 hours at LHR. This schedule also keeps planes in the air making money. Morning flights from cities outside Boston, New York, Chicago and IAD don't work. A flight departing LAX at noon gets to LHR at 6AM and a 9pm LAX flights arrives at 3PM LHR time. Its s finicky thing those AM JFK to LHR flights, the best was the Concorde, breakfast in NYC and dinner in London.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23022 posts, RR: 20
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3892 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 33):
But for those ending their trip in London, it's much less physically and mentally taxing.

You are ignoring, I think, the fact that a lot of business travelers - including me - look to minimize the amount of time away from home even if that results in less sleep during the trip.

[Edited 2012-11-28 10:00:24]


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3743 times:

There must be a market for daytime eastbound services, otherwise there wouldn't be so many flights.

My view is that its much more pleasant to get off a long flight, go straight to the hotel, checkin, shower and bed. Rather than arrive at 6am knowing that check in isn't until 3pm and that you've got to stay awake until a reasonable hour.

However I have only flow North America to Europe on a daytime service once (AC YYZ-LHR). It didn't really work for me. Yes it was much better to be on a daytime rather than over night flight. But because of the time difference I got to bed then couldn't sleep.

Alex


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4471 posts, RR: 7
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3675 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
You are ignoring, I think, the fact that a lot of business travelers - including me - look to minimize the amount of time away from home even if that results in less sleep during the trip.

Not ignoring, but looking at the other factors. Lack of sleep = not able to perform at 100% = not good for business.


User currently onlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3678 times:
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Quoting Richcandy (Reply 38):
There must be a market for daytime eastbound services, otherwise there wouldn't be so many flights.

There is a limited market for the AM daylight flights to LHR. These day flights have been tried to CDG by TWA and recently AF, they were dudds. Its a niche market.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23022 posts, RR: 20
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3645 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 39):
Not ignoring, but looking at the other factors. Lack of sleep = not able to perform at 100% = not good for business.

The whole thing is a balance. Different factors are more important on different trips. As far as how people value the different factors in a macro sense, the market speaks for itself, and it disagrees with you.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4471 posts, RR: 7
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3632 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 41):
As far as how people value the different factors in a macro sense, the market speaks for itself, and it disagrees with you.

But, as mentioned here:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 35):
At the end of the day, my opinion is that eastbound day time TATL flight are less enticing for the airlines because they don't fit the airlines' general operating model

I agree - the "market" is being primarily driven by the airlines on this one and therefor yes, it does "disagree" with me.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 33):
On connections, sure, the daylight flight isn't a very good option. But for those ending their trip in London, it's much less physically and mentally taxing.

If that were the case, then there would be a lot more demand for daylight flights, especially in summer time. I find that it is more taxing on a daytime flight, because of the time change and the connections from where I live, I need a day to recover and to be able to function.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23022 posts, RR: 20
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3610 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 42):
I agree - the "market" is being primarily driven by the airlines on this one and therefor yes, it does "disagree" with me.

How are the airlines driving the market? Are you suggesting that they are actively subverting their yields on daytime flights?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3031 posts, RR: 4
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3576 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 40):
There is a limited market for the AM daylight flights to LHR. These day flights have been tried to CDG by TWA and recently AF, they were dudds. Its a niche market.

And be that as it may, when you're trying to "win New York" as DL is are they at a disadvantage by not offering this option at least once daily from their JFK hub the way UA, AA, BA, and VS are?


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3532 times:

Quoting Catiii (Reply 45):
And be that as it may, when you're trying to "win New York" as DL is are they at a disadvantage by not offering this option at least once daily from their JFK hub the way UA, AA, BA, and VS are?

Maybe DL doesn't see it that way. I don't see the demand for these flights and neither do many airlines. Considering how many flights there are every day, only 4 from the New York area is really not that impressive. UA only uses a 757 from Newark and AA uses only a 763. I have been on the BA flight that left in the morning and it was not that full. Maybe 30-40% at best. AA sends it more for the return journey's loads than for the initial flight from JFK.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4471 posts, RR: 7
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44):

How are the airlines driving the market?

They've done this for decades, by dumping all their capacity eastbound on overnight flights. It's become "established" in the consciousness of the traveling public that if you fly to Europe, you fly overnight, arrive bleary-eyed early in the morning and need to wait around until 3pm for your hotel room.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25346 posts, RR: 22
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3471 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 40):
There is a limited market for the AM daylight flights to LHR. These day flights have been tried to CDG by TWA and recently AF, they were dudds. Its a niche market.

AF also had a daytime 707 in the 1970s which ended when Concorde service started. I flew on that 707 once JFK-CDG. It was less than half full. They offered a special inflight product on that flight, including leaving the middle seats in Y class empty, which was probably a good indication of the demand. With the additional one hour time difference to CDG compared to LHR, it also arrived very late. I remember CDG was totally deserted when the flight landed.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23022 posts, RR: 20
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 47):
They've done this for decades, by dumping all their capacity eastbound on overnight flights.

And despite this alleged "capacity dump," yields are still higher overnight. That tells us something, no?

Quoting N62NA (Reply 47):
t's become "established" in the consciousness of the traveling public that if you fly to Europe, you fly overnight,

Perhaps.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 47):
arrive bleary-eyed early in the morning and need to wait around until 3pm for your hotel room.

If you have some evidence that the majority of US-Europe travelers not named N62NA arrive bleary-eyed, I'd love to see it. I have much more trouble with fatigue going west regardless of the class of service.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 897 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3471 times:

Back to possible TATL options for Delta. Just a crazy thought. The SKYTEAM Joint Venture could consider operating Delta B757s on day-light TATL flights on the following routes and schedules:

- BOS 06.30 - 19.40 AMS 20.55 - 02.20 CAI B757 daily
- CAI 04.10 - 08.00 AMS 11.10 - 13.25 BOS B757 daily

- JFK 06.30 - 19.55 AMS 20.50 - 02.15 TLV B757 daily
- TLV 05.30 - 09.50 AMS 11.00 - 13.30 JFK B757 daily

These flights are based on existing KLM flights AMS-CAI-AMS and AMS-TLV-AMS, plus existing westbound TATL Delta flights. The only new sector would be the day-light TATL eastbound service on Delta B757s from BOS and JFK.

By creating these one-stop flights with a connection in AMS the day-light TATL departures from BOS & JFK could each carry CAI & TLV pax, as well as AMS O&D traffic. Delta's beyond AMS sectors would carry existing KLM pax, as well as the USA originating pax. much like Delta's existing AMS-BOM flight.

In addition there are still a list of European KLM connections at AMS from 21.00 hours onwards to German, Scandinavian and UK regional destinations to fill more TATL seats.

Could it work though?


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4471 posts, RR: 7
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3424 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 49):

And despite this alleged "capacity dump," yields are still higher overnight. That tells us something, no?

Not really in relation to my point.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 49):
If you have some evidence that the majority of US-Europe travelers not named N62NA arrive bleary-eyed, I'd love to see it. I have much more trouble with fatigue going west regardless of the class of service.

It's just common sense. If you get on a plane at 7pm NYC time (and you are a resident of North America, accustomed to North American time) and then 6 hours later get off the plane in London after - at most - 5 hours of sleep, if you are even able to sleep, you are going to be quite tired and out of sorts. I think the term is "jetlag."  


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23022 posts, RR: 20
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 51):
It's just common sense.

There is no "common sense" of jet lag. It affects everyone a little bit differently. As I said, from the US to Europe, I've always had a much easier time going east.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4471 posts, RR: 7
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3104 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 52):
There is no "common sense" of jet lag. It affects everyone a little bit differently. As I said, from the US to Europe, I've always had a much easier time going east.

Well, I suppose you and I have beaten this into the ground at this point. We'll let anyone else reading who cares make up their own mind.  


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8379 posts, RR: 10
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3099 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 6):

I dont know who told you that but they are WRONG. Day flights have much higher yields and I know this because I worked at both AA and UA and saw the P&Ls
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 49):

And despite this alleged "capacity dump," yields are still higher overnight. That tells us something, no?

So which one Is it? Since yields are highly guarded secrets I guess we'll never know. Never the less, lower yields may not be a valid indication of demand, if it costs the airline more to operate these morning departures. Personally I have never found the fares to be cheaper on the morning flights, and I have used it.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 36):

There are 3 time zones between LAX and JFK, so a flights clock time is about 9 hours
[...]
The morning JFK to LHR flights stay on the ground at LHR all night ( if a US airline) and all night at JFK ( if BA or VA). Evening departures bring connections and early morning arrivals provide connections at LHR with planes on the ground for only 90 minutes or 2 hours at LHR.

That has nothing to do with passenger demand. You're basically supporting my argument that the reason we don't have more eastbound day flights it's because they are less convenient for the airlines, not because passengers don't like them.


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 897 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 50):
Back to possible TATL options for Delta. Just a crazy thought. The SKYTEAM Joint Venture could consider operating Delta B757s on day-light TATL flights on the following routes and schedules:

- BOS 06.30 - 19.40 AMS 20.55 - 02.20 CAI B757 daily
- CAI 04.10 - 08.00 AMS 11.10 - 13.25 BOS B757 daily

- JFK 06.30 - 19.55 AMS 20.50 - 02.15 TLV B757 daily
- TLV 05.30 - 09.50 AMS 11.00 - 13.30 JFK B757 daily

We could add more possibilities to this new DL Day-Light Eastbound TATL plan, thus improving the economics with new connections:

- EWR 06.20 - 20.00 AMS 21.00 - 03.25 SVO B757 daily
- SVO 06.25 - 08.40 AMS 10.50 - 13.40 EWR B757 daily

- PHL 06.15 - 19.55 AMS 20.55 - 01.10 IST B757 daily
- IST 05.55 - 08.30 AMS 10.00 - 12.50 PHL B757 daily

Connections would increase exponentially and utilisation would be significantly better than letting aircraft sit overnight at outstations.


User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2900 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 40):
There is a limited market for the AM daylight flights to LHR. These day flights have been tried to CDG by TWA and recently AF, they were dudds. Its a niche market.

is that in part due to the slightly longer flight time plus an extra hours time difference?


User currently onlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2849 times:
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Quoting Richcandy (Reply 56):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 40):
There is a limited market for the AM daylight flights to LHR. These day flights have been tried to CDG by TWA and recently AF, they were dudds. Its a niche market.


is that in part due to the slightly longer flight time plus an extra hours time difference?

IT could be that, but people many times think London and Paris are markets of similar size. That is pure fiction, London is about 4 times bigger then Paris on the USA to Europe market. Of the entire Atlantic market the UK is 40% and France id about 10%.


User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3031 posts, RR: 4
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2713 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 57):

IT could be that, but people many times think London and Paris are markets of similar size. That is pure fiction, London is about 4 times bigger then Paris on the USA to Europe market. Of the entire Atlantic market the UK is 40% and France id about 10%.

Wow, hadn't realized that. Good info.


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