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Too Fat To Fly, Passenger Kicked Off 3 Flights  
User currently offlineLFutia From Netherlands, joined Dec 2002, 3339 posts, RR: 27
Posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 23242 times:

From The Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=14907

The passenger was too obese to fly, and was kicked off 3 flights to New York after trying to return home for medical treatment. The passenger ended up dying in Hungary and now a lawsuit is being filed against DL/ LH and KL for violation of disabled passenger.

The pictures may be a bit disturbing but the article sums it all up.

Leo/ORD


Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
90 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHOMsAR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 23252 times:

I don't see how it's the airlines fault. If you can't physically fit safely on the plane/in your seats (either because the seatbelts aren't long enough, or because not even several firefighters can lift you up and put you in the seat), then what is the airline supposed to do?

Given the person's condition, I'm guessing it's unlikely that even returning home and getting medical treatment would have done much to keep her alive.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 23217 times:

I'm not going to get into whether the airline was right or not in denying her travel. I can see the airline side of things, and I can see the passenger's side as well - they did let the airline know, they did book two seats for her, etc.

Here's the crux of the issue: she had the opportunity to see doctors in Hungary, and she chose not to. That is entirely her and her husband's fault, and shouldn't be held against the airlines.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2605 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 23214 times:

Three different airlines from three different countries said no, yet they're at fault. What happened to personal responsibility?

Flying is a privilege, not a right. Buying a ticket still comes wih constraints.



Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineplateman From United States of America, joined May 2007, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 23153 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Here's the crux of the issue: she had the opportunity to see doctors in Hungary, and she chose not to. That is entirely her and her husband's fault, and shouldn't be held against the airlines.

Exactly. And I hope a court is smart enough to see that too.



"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
User currently offlinesonomaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1817 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 23035 times:
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It's tragic but the kicker is that even the local fire dept couldn't get her out of her chair. It's sounds like there wasn't anything for the airlines to do.

It will be interesting to find out if obesity is the disability theory. Airlines must make reasonable accommodation. If the person is too heavy for the seat he/she is sitting on, there isn't much the airline can do. I don't see any of the airlines discriminating here; her medical condition made it so she wasn't able to fly.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6235 posts, RR: 31
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 23007 times:
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Still. While I do not fault the airlines (this case falls beyond the normal fat person who is asked to pay for another seat) she did get to Hungary. I assume she did not swim her way there.

So, if they were able to get her there, I don´t see how legally they can´t get her back. Unless of course she put on an excessive amount of weight, which I find hard to believe, but possible.

What a sad case. With that weight and missing a leg, she must not have been a happy person. Poor woman.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 22933 times:

It is very sad that she died but I fail to see how that is the airlines' fault. Was it wise to leave the US and travel to Hungary in the first case?

Why could she not see doctors and undergo necessary treatment in Hungary? Let me guess, no insurance cover for a pre-existing medical condition, although they claim that they felt staff would be unfamiliar with their medical needs.

But seriously, if the fire brigade was unable to lift her out of the wheelchair, perhaps they could have chartered a private plane. But I guess the lack of appropriate cover for medical evacuation would have ruled that out.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6235 posts, RR: 31
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 22899 times:
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Quoting Quokkas (Reply 7):
It is very sad that she died but I fail to see how that is the airlines' fault. Was it wise to leave the US and travel to Hungary in the first case?

Seeing the pictures and the description of her case, I really can´t see how she was fit to fly outbound in the first place.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 7):
Let me guess, no insurance cover for a pre-existing medical condition, although they claim that they felt staff would be unfamiliar with their medical needs.

Isn´t hungary one of those countries that have free health care?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 7):
But I guess the lack of appropriate cover for medical evacuation would have ruled that out.

I´m not an expert by any means, but if they were not able to fit her in an airliner, I don´t see how a smaller private jet med-evac aircraft would have been able to fit her inside.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 22469 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
Isn´t hungary one of those countries that have free health care?

Residents of the European Union, Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein and Switzerland, who are entitled to health care under the national health services or mandatory health insurance scheme of their respective countries of residence, can receive in Hungary health care
+ which becomes necessary
+ on medical grounds
+ during temporary stay in Hungary
+ taking into account the nature of the benefits required and the expected length of stay.
The treatment, which becomes medically necessary during the patient’s temporary stay in Hungary is free of charge. It does not cover ongoing illnesses of a non-urgent nature or emergency repatriation costs, so comprehensive travel insurance is advised as treatment can be very expensive.

Citizens and/or residents of countries, which are not part of the European Economic Area and which don’t have bilateral agreements with Hungary covering the provision of health care, have to pay full price for the health care services rendered in Hungary. According to Hungarian legislation, the health care provider can set the fee freely; therefore the Hungarian National Health Insurance has no influence on the amount of fee charged.

If the couple had retained Hungarian Citizenship (if it was possible at the time they acquired US citizenship) they would have been eligible for free treatment. If they were not Hungarian citizens they would not be covered as there is, as far as I know, no bilateral agreement covering health care between the US and Hungary. The US Bureau of Consular Affairs offers the following advice:
"Make sure you have adequate health insurance coverage while abroad, including coverage of medical evacuation (not covered by most domestic policies). Note that U.S. Medicare and Medicaid programs do not provide payment for medical services outside the United States."


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6235 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 22382 times:
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Quoting Quokkas (Reply 9):
If the couple had retained Hungarian Citizenship (if it was possible at the time they acquired US citizenship) they would have been eligible for free treatment.

I am assuming that they did, as they had a "summer house" in Hungary.

Besides, as far as I know, the US allows and has for a long time, allowed double citizenship. Heck, I am an example of it.

The death of this woman, thus, seems to me as being brought on by herself and her husband. I really can´t see otherwise, seeing the condition she was in before she left for Hungary. She was buried there too, which is telling.

Maybe that was the purpose all along, and now, someone greedy wants to take advantage of a rather sad situation and make money off of it.

If they had the money to purchase three Y seats, they had enough to pay for a repatriating, ambulance service.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19784 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 22278 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
So, if they were able to get her there, I don´t see how legally they can´t get her back. Unless of course she put on an excessive amount of weight, which I find hard to believe, but possible.

If she is in renal (and probably heart) failure and did not have access to proper dialysis treatment, she easily could have gained tens of pounds worth of fluid.

Fact is that she shouldn't have traveled in the first place. Especially if her condition was so fragile that she could die without medical treatment for a few days.

While I'm not sure if it's suit-worthy, I have to scratch my head at the physician who cleared her to fly (if one did). I sure wouldn't have.

"I'm sorry, but you're in chronic multiorgan failure. In my opinion, it is not safe for you to travel anywhere by air."


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3294 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 22132 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
Seeing the pictures and the description of her case, I really can´t see how she was fit to fly outbound in the first place.

I saw the TV news report, agree 100% with you and most folks here. Not only was I amazed that she had flown outbound to Hungry in the first place, she is very round, and extremely obese, over 400 pounds. I am not bashing her at all, she was very sad looking and I feel deeply for her situation.

I wonder how she was able to get to Europe from the USA in the first place, so she had to have flown with some carrier, why could those techniques used to get her over there, be reversed to get her home? Obviously there must be many facets to this story that the media has not filled in, therefore I reserve commenting on carrier responsibility.

But will be the first one to say, something or someone compassionate should have tried anything, even, God forbid a cargo plane. If someone like that had stepped up for these unusual circumstances to be remedied. I'm a big boy at 220 and I am flying F tomorrow because I feel more comfortable in that slightly larger seat, especially 6 hours or better. RIP to her and God bless her family, during this crisis. Are they bringing the body home to the US? guess not if they couldn't while she was alive.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19784 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 22073 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 12):
But will be the first one to say, something or someone compassionate should have tried anything, even, God forbid a cargo plane.

Can you transport a passenger commercially in a cargo plane? No seat? No seatbelt? That can't possibly be legal.

Besides, how much is that going to cost?

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 12):
Are they bringing the body home to the US? guess not if they couldn't while she was alive.

Says she was buried there. I wonder where in Hungary they found the casket.

Again, she was obviously in multiorgan failure (at least heart, kidney, and pancreas, and I'd bet anyone a dollar that her liver wasn't exactly in great shape, either). She had no business going on a vacation. It's not "fair," but very sick people just should not travel.

There is a difference between "disabled," which is a static limitation that is unlikely to get worse on its own and "sick," which is a fluid and often progressive condition that will deteriorate without intervention.


User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1881 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 22035 times:
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CHAT OPERATOR

I think the real question here, is if her condition was so severe that the 9 days away from a hospital means death, then what was she doing in Europe anyway!?

Martijn



Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlineGeo772 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 21800 times:

I can't understand why she wouldn't have sought treatment in Hungary. Kidney Diseases and diabetes aren't exactly unusual. I'd be incredibly surprised if there weren't some very good doctors in Hungary who would have been able to care for her. I suspect that there may have been a cost element, most likely due to a lack of insurance or from being underinsured for the trip. Based on what scant information the daily mail provides I am surprised that to couple would even have attempted the trip in the first place.

As for the behaviour of the airlines involved I think they all tried really hard to accommodate her on their flights. It certainly sounds as if she was in a significantly worse physical condition for her return trip than for the outbound which ultimately made it impossible to accommodate her. It certainly sounds as if a medical repatriation would have been the only way for her to return to the US.



Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
User currently onlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 21722 times:

She could also have move by ground to another country in Europe best suiting her condition. France comes to mind, the UK also (Eurostar or Eurotunnel or even Ferry).

The airlines are clearly not at fault here. It's not even a question of having to book several seats for her, it's a question of going through the door or down an escape slide if it had to happen.

How do people get that fat anyway ? ... I couldn't even if I tried and believe me I can gain 10 pounds eating a mars bar.



Cheers
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 21482 times:

Here's a tip for you for the future. As soon as you hear about or read a story that makes you feel outraged, seems a little over the top and you see that it's source is the daily mail, just move on. It's almost certainly not the whole story or is altered to make it better "tabloid" material. Judge the story when you hear it from a credible source.

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9435 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week ago) and read 21438 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Can you transport a passenger commercially in a cargo plane? No seat? No seatbelt? That can't possibly be legal.

Normally not. passengers are only allowed to accompany animals (most usual horses) or courier freight.

Now, lket's say it would be allowed, her weight was about 200 kg, but her volume was, at an estimated height of 160 cm and a girver of 200 cm the calculation would be 160x200x200 divided by 6 the weight charge would be 1067 kg.

At the general cargo rate +1000 kg not cheap but acceptable.

Food would be extra.  



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinebaldwin471 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 297 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 21160 times:

She killed herself with the excessive greediness. Nothing to do with the airline if she is too fat to safely fly. Sad, but true.

User currently offlinelh526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2372 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 21128 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Airlines are responsible for the health and safety of every single one of their passengers. If one person is too fat and subsequently is a hazard for other passengers in case of emergency (blocking the isle, blocking the emergency exits, hampering passengers from egress) than it's the airlines obligation to deny that passenger transportation. Simple as that!


Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 20885 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 7):
Why could she not see doctors and undergo necessary treatment in Hungary? Let me guess, no insurance cover for a pre-existing medical condition, although they claim that they felt staff would be unfamiliar with their medical needs.

If I'm not mistaken, whatever insurance she had in the US should cover healthcare costs while she's travelling abroad.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Can you transport a passenger commercially in a cargo plane? No seat? No seatbelt? That can't possibly be legal.

Besides, how much is that going to cost?

You can transport anything in a cargo plane if you set it up properly (and if it will fit through the door). But yes, it would be incredibly expensive.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 20874 times:

Nobodies fault but her own, No excuse to get so over weight. People Always have to blame someone else or call on the lawyers to get some money out of someone innocent. The airline was protecting all its other pax by not having her on board.

To her family she clearly defines the phrase "cash cow". Hrmooo.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 20794 times:

By the way, this woman's husband is suing DL at home, in NY State trial court (Supreme Court) in Bronx County, NY (part of NY City) which is notorious for being Plaintiff friendly with Juries there giving stupid amounts in Judgments in cases like this. I suspect their lawyer is a real 'ambulance chaser', unethically looking for a huge jackpot for himself, due to the about 1/3rd of the Judgment he can get as compensation. Most likely DL will try to move the case to US Federal District Court in the Eastern District of NY, which includes the site of JFK airport and quickly move for dismissal of the complaint on a motion for Summary Judgment, citing that they had justification under USA law to deny her passage.

One can argue with her serious medical problems she probably should not have flown in the first place to Hungary, that her and her husband knew of the risks and the medical services she needed. Of course, if DL denied selling her tickets , they would have been sued for discrimination so they were in a no-win situation. Once in Hungary, DL probably wanted to avoid the risks and costs of any possible diversion, that her obesity and medical condition was such that it put her and other passengers at risk. Perhaps USA law needs to be changed to better protect both passengers and airlines as to medical conditions to prevent conflicts like this.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5703 posts, RR: 44
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 20653 times:
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Looking at the scant information available about this in the media it appears this woman and her husband refused to seek the care that was available in Hungary yet the family is suing the airlines.

I wonder if this refusal of available care can be turned around on the family and criminal action taken against them.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 20750 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
whatever insurance she had in the US should cover healthcare costs while she's travelling

I don't know. The US Bureau of Consular Affairs web site suggests that not all domestic policies are recognised overseas and that while some may cover reasonable medical expenses most do not cover medical evacuations. The web site suggests that an evacuation could cost as much as $50,000. That may be worst case but they do advise all travellers to check with their insurance provider before travel.

I know that if I travel domestically in Australia my normal travel insurance will not cover medical costs because emergency medical care is provided through Medicare. My policy does cover overseas medical expenses but like every policy I have read, it does state that known pre-existing medical conditions are not covered unless notified at the time of purchase, and agreed to by the provider. Some conditions will be included automatically at no extra cost, some will be excluded automatically, some will be included against an extra premium and some will need to be assessed following a medical examination.

Another stipulation in just about every insurance policy document that I have ever read - although the wording may vary - is that the insured person must take all reasonable steps to minimise the risk.

By refusing health care in Hungary it might seem that the plaintiff failed in that regard. The linked article does not state whether their insurance paid or will pay for the funeral expenses. I wonder if they did or will?

[Edited 2012-11-27 04:42:44]

User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7437 posts, RR: 5
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 19843 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 12):
I'm a big boy at 220

Unless you're a midget 220 pounds isn't that big.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13152 posts, RR: 100
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18808 times:
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If 3 airlines refused the passenger, it was because the individual was not healthy enough to fly. The reality is the human body is not designed to carry that much weight.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
Unless you're a midget 220 pounds isn't that big.

The seats are only safe to 250lbm. Otherwise, they would be so stiff in a crash they would kill lighter people. In fact, people under 75 pounds are not properly safe in an airline or car seat. there is only so much variation that can be done. That heavy of a person would break a seat in a crash killing those behind them. Individuals should at least get below 250 lbm for transportation safety.

Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 1):
I don't see how it's the airlines fault. If you can't physically fit safely on the plane/in your seats (either because the seatbelts aren't long enough, or because not even several firefighters can lift you up and put you in the seat), then what is the airline supposed to do?

  

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 5):
It will be interesting to find out if obesity is the disability theory.

Those with food to mouth syndrome already have it treated that way.

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 14):
I think the real question here, is if her condition was so severe that the 9 days away from a hospital means death, then what was she doing in Europe anyway!?

I thought that too. I have a good friend whom used to be as heavy as the individual listed here. He has done a tremendous job losing weight at quite a struggle. (He doesn't like being in the water and swimming really is the best exercise option for these individuals IMHO. But he found alternatives in the gym.) This individual should have been under a doctors care to loose weight.

I hope the airlines fight the case just not to set precedent.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7704 posts, RR: 21
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18557 times:
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This is what travel insurance is for. If his condition was that severe that he can't take a scheduled service, then he needs medical repatriation. If he didn't have such insurance in place, that is not the fault of any airline.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7437 posts, RR: 5
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18586 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
The seats are only safe to 250lbm.

That's a serious problem especially in the US where 250 pounds isn't that big anymore, how do NFL and NBA players move around I guess well over half of the player rosters for both sports would easily surpass 250 pounds. Hell nearly a quarter of the adult males in the US are bigger than 250 pounds.


User currently offlineEaglePower83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17917 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
Still. While I do not fault the airlines (this case falls beyond the normal fat person who is asked to pay for another seat) she did get to Hungary. I assume she did not swim her way there.

So, if they were able to get her there, I don´t see how legally they can´t get her back. Unless of course she put on an excessive amount of weight, which I find hard to believe, but possible.

What a sad case. With that weight and missing a leg, she must not have been a happy person. Poor woman.

True, she got to Hungary, but the article also states that she gained more weight in Hungary.
It doesn't say how much, but perhaps the further amount she gained.....sadly stranded her.


User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17207 times:

From a legal point of view, there are many issues identified in the posts above... this is not an easy case, and the plaintiffs will have problems proving their case (assumnig the legal system is working as it should).

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 3):
Flying is a privilege, not a right. Buying a ticket still comes wih constraints.



Sort of true... Where a service is offered to the public, access to that service without discrimination is a right, in the EU and in the US (on an airline, in any event).

I'm not familiar with the way that human rights law is practiced in those jurisdictions, but here the airlines would have a duty to accommodate if it can be done reasonably... and that is of course the question: was it possible to reasonably accommodate her?

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 3):
Three different airlines from three different countries said no, ... .



That will be relevant to the question of whether the airlines truly tried to accommodate (or in tort, whether they met the standard of care). If there are 3 separate airlines who come to the same conclusion (more or less) it carries more weight than if one airline alone says "not possible".

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
The seats are only safe to 250lbm. Otherwise, they would be so stiff in a crash they would kill lighter people. In fact, people under 75 pounds are not properly safe in an airline or car seat. there is only so much variation that can be done. That heavy of a person would break a seat in a crash killing those behind them. Individuals should at least get below 250 lbm for transportation safety



Also very relevant to the reasonability of the airline's actions. (though, scary in another way: I'm guessing that passengers over 250 lbs are carried routinely! but that's for another thread)

Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 1):
Given the person's condition, I'm guessing it's unlikely that even returning home and getting medical treatment would have done much to keep her alive.



Causation. Would her injury (death) have occurred but for the actions of the airlines? That may also be a hard one to answer. Cue the medical experts providing opinions as to what her prognosis was.

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 15):
I can't understand why she wouldn't have sought treatment in Hungary. Kidney Diseases and diabetes aren't exactly unusual. I'd be incredibly surprised if there weren't some very good doctors in Hungary who would have been able to care for her. I suspect that there may have been a cost element, most likely due to a lack of insurance or from being underinsured for the trip. Based on what scant information the daily mail provides I am surprised that to couple would even have attempted the trip in the first place.


Failure to mitigate? If you are wronged, you have a duty to take reasonable steps to try to avoid a loss / injury / damage... Was this a reasonable decision? that might be a tough sell.

I try not to generalize (particularly, as I do not know what the situation in Hungary is at present) but the health care system in "eastern block" countries was at one time very good... many of those countries are perceived as economically disadvantaged after the events of the early 1990's but that does not necessarily translate to a health care system that is incapable of managing diabetes (my grandmother's diabetes was very well manged in Yugoslavia in the 1960's and 1970's... )

Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
If I'm not mistaken, whatever insurance she had in the US should cover healthcare costs while she's travelling abroad.
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 29):
This is what travel insurance is for. If his condition was that severe that he can't take a scheduled service, then he needs medical repatriation. If he didn't have such insurance in place, that is not the fault of any airline.



Pre-existing condition, symptomatic before travel commenced: will almost certainly be excluded. I'd be amazed if they could find insurance that would cover this condition.

It's hard to say how this case would turn out if fought...


User currently offlineGulfstream650 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 16512 times:

She could have taken a ship. They still have them.

http://www.freightercruises.com/voyages.php#transatlantic



I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 16394 times:

Regardless of her condition... if she cant safely fly, she doesn't fly. She cant get herself out of the aircraft (or seat) in an emergency, and would be a danger to other passengers trying to evacuate. Easy call. Sad that such a restriction would have to be placed on a person, but it is a safety issue. Im pretty sure there are stipulations you have to meet in the fine print that you have to be able to get yourself out of an aircraft in the event of an emergency.

They airlines did their best to accommodate her within reason... what can be asked beyond that?

Special transport arrangements should have been made. Traveling abroad with health issues is risky at best.


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1607 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 16324 times:

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 19):
She killed herself with the excessive greediness.
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 22):
Nobodies fault but her own, No excuse to get so over weight.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):

Those with food to mouth syndrome already have it treated that way.

Good heavens, folks, the judgments! You have no idea why she became so heavy. There are lots of conditions that can lead to weight gain. Her photos suggest something other than a sweet tooth is at issue. Her distended belly and puffed face look to me like fluid retention which would go hand in hand with kidney disease and circulatory problems both hallmarks of diabetes. Diabetes is an insidious disease - it attacks all organs, including the heart and kidneys, and destroys the circulatory system. Without a proper blood flow through the body, fluids back up, limbs become gangrene and things begin shutting down. How she became so ill, whether lifestyle or an aggressive form of disease, we just don't know.

I think we can discuss this issue without attacking her.

The problem here is that most airlines are simply not suited for a passenger of this size - whether the passenger buys two or three seats. She also looks so unwell - I can't imagine the difficulties she'd have during a long haul commercial flight. Healthy passengers often have problems with swelling and thrombosis during a flight. Her challenges would be exponentially greater.

In her condition, it looks like she needed a specialized medical transport, which she could not afford or was otherwise not available.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 35, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 16104 times:

I would like to add to what I have previously posted. Perhaps I have contributed to the view that the effected parties have only themselves to blame, but that was not my intent and I apologise for any offense that may have been caused by such an implication.

While I have endeavoured to point out that not all insurance policies automatically cover health problems abroad and I support the right of airlines to determine whether passengers present a risk to themselves, other passengers and crew if they travel, I do not condemn any person who, feeling aggrieved, seeks redress under law. I do retain the belief that people need to be aware of what cover they are purchasing for the simple reason that there are plenty of sharks out there.

That said, one thing that we need to remember is that grief can and does affect people in different ways. I am not suggesting that claims should be automatically discounted on the basis of grief, but I do recognise that in situations of extreme stress peoples' responses will vary. Some will appear to be blasé. This does not mean that they don't care. It may suggest that they are attempting to block out pain. Others may lash out and blame all and sundry. That does not necessarily mean that they are on the make and want a few million in compensation.

I do not know the people involved in this case. I did guess that they may have been under-insured or not have purchased appropriate cover. That may or may not be true. But we can not deduce from that an idea that the family simply wish to make a profit. They might but we can not assume it.

I recall when my father died, my mother was angry. She was not angry at the hospital. She was not angry at the radiologist. She was not angry at the doctors or any on else. She was angry at my father for abandoning her. As I said earlier, grief affects people in different ways. If you were to ask my mother if she blamed him for his cancer at the time she would have said no. But all the same she blamed him.


User currently offlineLFutia From Netherlands, joined Dec 2002, 3339 posts, RR: 27
Reply 36, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15649 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 17):
Here's a tip for you for the future. As soon as you hear about or read a story that makes you feel outraged, seems a little over the top and you see that it's source is the daily mail, just move on. It's almost certainly not the whole story or is altered to make it better "tabloid" material. Judge the story when you hear it from a credible source.

Ja sorry I live in the US and based on all the other articles I read ( De Telegraaf and The NY Post), this one seemed more detailed.

Leo/ORD



Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
User currently offlineusscvr From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15612 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 3):
Flying is a privilege, not a right. Buying a ticket still comes wih constraints.

Amen!


User currently offlineasctty From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 14882 times:

It s a shame ths woman died but I fail to see how the irlines can be directly held responsible for her death due to refused carriage out of Hungary. What I don't get it who managed to transport her there in the first place?
As other posts have pointed out, the captain of an aircraft is responsible the safety of all passengers. I have been on numerous flights where the captain has served a refusal order based on his assessment of the condition of the passenger. He doesn't have to be medically qualified to make a subjective judgement. In each case a medical advisor has been called, or if one is not available the passenger was off-loaded to avoid delaying departure.
In this woman's case, it appears her medical team/family may have failed her for allowing her to consider ling-distance travel and I would question the airline captan who permitted her to leave the USA in the first place. If she had been prvented from doing so at the outset, the outcome may have been different? That said, from the press photographs, she was clearly not in good health at all, neither is her partner.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9435 posts, RR: 29
Reply 39, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 14852 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 3):
Flying is a privilege, not a right. Buying a ticket still comes wih constraints.

Do you still have to send in an application to get a permit to buy a ticket?



Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 35):
n her condition, it looks like she needed a specialized medical transport, which she could not afford or was otherwise not available.

There are excellent schemes for coverage of overseas medical expenses. The German automobile club ADAC offers coverage where they fly you home either in an ambulance jet or on a stretcher over 3 rows in a pax jet. The condition is that you must fit through the door. I believe however that in this case the latter option would have been a bit difficult as well.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 40, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 14232 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 30):
That's a serious problem especially in the US where 250 pounds isn't that big anymore, how do NFL and NBA players move around I guess well over half of the player rosters for both sports would easily surpass 250 pounds. Hell nearly a quarter of the adult males in the US are bigger than 250 pounds

Very true, however NFL players etc can still move under their own free will and will not be a hinderance to an evacuation. This lady (RIP) would have been problematic at best in, even the simplest form of emergency or even bathroom usage. But, as you see from one of the pictures posted, that she could not even get in or out of her wheel chair without severe help! That should be enough to warrant not flying.

It's very unfortunate that this happened, however, refusing medical service (for her own convenience/insecurities) was all on them and the Airlines did the right thing!

May she rest in peace, however may her husband grow up and realize that is how they lived their lives; as you see in the one pic (of him in the tiny car), he's not small either...and that is how your life ends up. SAD!

Regards,

135Mech

[Edited 2012-11-27 10:16:29]

[Edited 2012-11-27 10:17:19]

User currently offlineboysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 13875 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
Still. While I do not fault the airlines (this case falls beyond the normal fat person who is asked to pay for another seat) she did get to Hungary. I assume she did not swim her way there.

If she had of swim it might of done her some good!


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2193 posts, RR: 15
Reply 42, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 13658 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 32):
Pre-existing condition, symptomatic before travel commenced: will almost certainly be excluded. I'd be amazed if they could find insurance that would cover this condition.

Bingo. The only way a pre-existing medical condition can be used is if it dated further back than 120 days before travel commenced. Given the physical symptoms of whatever she was suffering from, I highly doubt any unforeseen red flags suddenly became noticeable within that window.

My guess is that her husband is distraught/grieving and is grasping for straws at some sort of conciliation, but this likely won't stand a chance in court (for all three cases).



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 13592 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 3):
Flying is a privilege, not a right. Buying a ticket still comes wih constraints.

I think that sums everything up excellently. I heard about this story and didn't read too much into it until now, but after seeing the pictures I can understand why the airlines said this lady wasn't fit to fly. More than considering the comfort of her fellow passengers it is a safety concern as well. In a worse case scenario, suppose there was a crash and she wasn't able to be helped off the plane or somehow inhibited other passengers ability to escape to safety. Unfortunately in the world we live in today I think situations like this are going to happen more frequently, though her dying makes this an extreme case.



RUSH
User currently offlineMnik101 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12820 times:

Long story short this will probably settled out of court if a suit is filed.

But as a passenger I see why the airlines didn't let her fly. Not to sound crass, but I would not want to sit next her, especially if it were a middle seat.

God for bid there is an emergency, how would she have gotten off the plane? She would be an impediment to other passengers trying to get out.


User currently offlineWB556 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2011, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12390 times:

There's a good chance that her medical conditions were either caused by or significantly aggravated by her extreme weight issues. It was irresponsible to get like that in the first place and irresponsible to fly in that state (it was not for treatment etc, purely for pleasure). I am sure this talk of suing comes out of the guilt felt by the husband as he is partly responsible for this situation and from a lack of clarity due to grief. Hell maybe it's just pure greed, we don't know him.

It's a sad end to what looks like an unpleasant life (at least the last few years of it). As a human I hope she gained some enjoyment from her final trip back to the country of ther birth before it all started to go wrong but its hard to have a huge amount of sympathy. The airlines did nothing wrong, by the sounds of it they went out of their way to help.

Life is tough, tougher for some than others. She lived longer than many in this world and died a much less painful and violent death.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13152 posts, RR: 100
Reply 46, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12100 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 30):
That's a serious problem especially in the US where 250 pounds isn't that big anymore, how do NFL and NBA players move around I guess well over half of the player rosters for both sports would easily surpass 250 pounds. Hell nearly a quarter of the adult males in the US are bigger than 250 pounds.

Then make them pay for a heavier seat. It is only the crash which is unsafe. There are many individuals below 75lbm (we were all there once) who aren't safe either. If you make the seat safe for a 400lbm person, that means the 120lbm woman dies in the crash. Pick who you want to live, there is no 'all of the above.' How much do you want to pay?

In effect, one is designing a spring and absorption constant for a range of weights. The weights that are protected are determined by the seat's 'spring constant.' A heavier person needs a stiffer seat that just won't move for a lighter person, so a crash for them is like landing on concrete. Pick your spring constant based on who you want to live. Shall we design a seat where most teens die? It is a problem.

Now if a person fills two seats, they will get the cushioning of two seats (e.g., up to 500lbm would be safe for neighbor passengers). However, there is no designing the seatback to cradle a large variation either. For example, I bought sport seats in my prior car which made it the *safest* seat in a crash for people in the 80 to 220 lbm range. It also made them unsafe seats for anyone above 220lbm. Oops... There is a reason in automobilies below 75lbm a 'booster seat' is required by law (with bolsters for side impact) and below 30lbm (varies by district) a child's seat is required. There is no making one seat safe for everyone.

The same goes for seatbelts. I was in a car crash back when I weighed 180lbm. The seat belt stretched 6 inches to absorb the impact energy. The same seatbelt is simply not stiff enough to save a passenger above 250lbm. It is possible, in an automobile, to buy a seatbelt system certified for heavier people. I know a few people who have done so. Note: a 5-point belt is good for more weight than a 3 point which is superior to a 2 point seatbelt.

Airplane seat belts are the same. A person weighing twice as much will stretch the seatbelt twice as far. A stiffer belt would cut that 110lbm woman in half during a crash. The current belts with a 400lbm person will stretch so much that said individual will be half way through the next seat before the belt can do its job. That is just how one must design seat belts. Forget fancy features, they aren't reliable enough to meet FAA standards. So... the FAA only requires one design a seatbelt to save people in a weight range. Again, pick the weights you wish to live.

Should there be a 'person of size section?' Maybe. Charge accordingly.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7496 posts, RR: 7
Reply 47, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12047 times:

They should have strapped her to a pallet and put it in the cargo compartment.


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinemeister808 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 973 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12022 times:

The fact of the matter is.. if I was the captain of the flight, there's no way that passenger would have set foot on my airplane. Safety does play a role here, folks. Some peoples' inability to accept responsibility for the fact that their actions endanger their own safety (such as being gravely ill or morbidly obese and attempting an international airplane ride) does not waive the fact that the crew's job is to ensure everyone's safety for the duration of the flight.

Arguments could be made that allowing this passenger onto a commercial airline flight would be negligent. End of story.



Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
User currently offlineaztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 583 posts, RR: 1
Reply 49, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11788 times:

Quoting Mnik101 (Reply 44):
Long story short this will probably settled out of court if a suit is filed.

Depends if they filed it in the EU or in the USA. But, I think that they will cause it to "go away" just from the PR perspective.

Quoting WB556 (Reply 45):
There's a good chance that her medical conditions were either caused by or significantly aggravated by her extreme weight issues. It was irresponsible to get like that in the first place and irresponsible to fly in that state (it was not for treatment etc, purely for pleasure). I am sure this talk of suing comes out of the guilt felt by the husband as he is partly responsible for this situation and from a lack of clarity due to grief. Hell maybe it's just pure greed, we don't know him.

Agree, she was diabetic and had kidney failure. She has a amputated left leg, which is common with a person that is diabetic and not eating and exercising correctly. From the pictures, she was not able to sit in a "normal" position in her own wheelchair. This is an example of what a sedentary lifestyle can do and how it can effect a persons life.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
Still. While I do not fault the airlines (this case falls beyond the normal fat person who is asked to pay for another seat) she did get to Hungary. I assume she did not swim her way there.

We are assuming that she flew. For all we know she took a cruse between North America and Europe. Also it stated that she "gained weight over holiday". If that is the case and they can document that, how much weight was gained? It also said that one of the flights two seats were booked for her, but she could not transfer to the seats and the firefighters could not mover her in the last scenario. To me, this is simply a case of safety and security to all on-board.

With all this said, I am wondering if it was of been a different article if she was able to fly where a plane was diverted due to a passenger with a medical emergency. I feel sorry for the family, but as has been stated: flying is a privilege and not a right.


User currently offlinetripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11333 times:

Very sad story  

Regarding some of the posters that comment that it would be unsafe to have her onboard and this would be a safety hazard while evacuating an aircraft, I can't imagine that this was the reason why the airlines did not let her fly.

I have been on plenty of flights where disabled, blind, very old, fat, and other immobile persons were onboard, yet all these people are allowed boarding and are allowed to fly, even when they can seriously slow down an evacuation. Off course airlines have the right to refuse boarding as well (e.g. intoxicated passengers). So overall physique state is not a reason to fly or not to fly. Going in more detail in this case...and looking at the video and pictures, this woman is seriously obese and I am puzzled on how she would be able to get on board of an airplane in the first place. How would she fit through the aisles...? I can understand that airlines would deny her boarding for the simple too obese reason and not being able to fit her in - this is quite an extreme case 200KG + (450 pounds) is immense obese. They even tried to!

It really makes you wonder how she got to Europe, which seemed to be no issue? Unfortunately the story does not elaborate on this too much...other than she gained weight...which must have been considerable then. It is off course a bit weird that travelling to Hungary is no problem...but travelling back is. The airlines appear to have tried quite some actions to get her back home...but have all failed. This is very unfortunate...but after that she should have sought medical treatment...as she had become unfit to fly. The amount of weight she gained during her vacation was probably what pushed her over the limits of what was still possible (assuming there is not much info)

This is a very sad situation...but can't see the point and relevance to sue these airlines. This will not hold in court ... I hope. For example what would have happened in case of a period of bad weather (e.g. Sandy) and airports are closed a couple of days? In that case she would not be able to fly as well. When you are in such a desperate medical situation as this woman...you should consider staying closer to your home hospital when you are not willing to accept the quality or pay for medical treatment abroad. It appears that people are losing their own self-discipline or take responsibility for their own actions.

My 2 cents....


User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11165 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
So, if they were able to get her there, I don´t see how legally they can´t get her back. Unless of course she put on an excessive amount of weight, which I find hard to believe, but possible.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
If she is in renal (and probably heart) failure and did not have access to proper dialysis treatment, she easily could have gained tens of pounds worth of fluid.

And they were on vacation, so I doubt she was eating salads. I typically work out everyday, but still managed to gain three pounds over Thanksgiving (6 days, I don't mess around on the holidays!).

I can't imagine any lawsuit would hold up, *assuming* she traveled against her doctors wishes and declined medical treatment in Hungary.



Cha brro
User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 52, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10574 times:

Pretty amazing. My question is...If she traveled from the USA to Europe, was the aircraft she traveled on equipped with Panasonic Eco 9i Integrated Smart Monitors? I just had to ask.  

User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1607 posts, RR: 1
Reply 53, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10503 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
Unless of course she put on an excessive amount of weight, which I find hard to believe, but possible.
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 51):
And they were on vacation, so I doubt she was eating salads. I typically work out everyday, but still managed to gain three pounds over Thanksgiving (6 days, I don't mess around on the holidays!).

Again, I think you're judging a condition based on very limited information. A person whose kidneys and/or circulatory system is shutting down can begin retaining fluids which can blow her up like a balloon in a matter of days. She may not have led an active life - exercising and avoiding carbs, cigarettes and the like - but honestly the vast majority of folks in our country don't - and few of them end up like this. I don't recall reading snarky comments when a person who dies of a heart attack while on board a plane - "That's what he gets for leading a sedentary lifestyle", "He only has himself to blame," "Maybe he should have skipped the rich dessert."

I don't think casting judgment on her is helpful - or is the proper subject of this thread. From the photos, this was obviously a very ill woman whose size does not conform to the typical space provided a passenger on a modern commercial airliner. The issue raised is whether airlines have, or should have, an obligation to transport such individuals, not whether she deserves her fate.


User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 602 posts, RR: 2
Reply 54, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10499 times:

First off, I feel incredibly bad for this poor woman, and I'm sorry this story had to have the ending that it did.

However, I fail to see how the circumstances that ensued are in any way the fault of Delta or any of the carriers that transported her (or at least attempted to).

Her first mistake, I believe, was choosing to go overseas while afflicted with a serious illness, especially if she and her husband "didn't believe the doctors were familiar enough" with her medical needs. Before going overseas, it's prudent to check your insurance policy and be aware of what it covers, as well as the care situation in the country you'll be visiting. I do it before every trip and I'm healthy. It's just good practice.

Further, I don't see how any of the airlines involved "discriminated" against her. They all attempted to get her onboard and get her comfortable, but just weren't able to. In an emergency, her weight and immobility would be a mitigating factor against both her safety and the safety of others around her.

An airline didn't kill her, her sickness did. While I am truly sympathetic to her plight, her death doesn't become the responsibility of a carrier just because they denied her the ability to travel.



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlineozark1 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 472 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10050 times:

Quoting lh526 (Reply 20):
Airlines are responsible for the health and safety of every single one of their passengers. If one person is too fat and subsequently is a hazard for other passengers in case of emergency (blocking the isle, blocking the emergency exits, hampering passengers from egress) than it's the airlines obligation to deny that passenger transportation. Simple as that!

This is absolutely right. She could have been an extreme hazard in an emergency.


User currently offlineLLA001 From Turkey, joined May 2005, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9792 times:

I don't have much to say about this particular incident, airlines are not meant to be ambulances, if you are sick or need medical assistance in a flight, a regular airline should not be your transportation.

It is very sad to hear about her death, I can not point fingers at the faulty party too, is it her and her family or the airlines. A judge somewhere will decide that, hopefully with the right decision.

however I am a bit disturbed by this event,


When I follow the news, the number of people who are even bigger than people we consider obese is increasing. Their numbers maybe are very small but they exist.

It is easy to tell them not to travel, or not to eat too much so they don't become 250 kgs, 300 kgs, 400 kgs, 500 kgs or 635 kgs ( that is the record for one persons weight so far) . However I don't think we even don't know the true cause of their increased weight, every day there is another research talking about a different cause.

So if we assume it is not their fault, then why we are saying with comfort that they shouldn't even to bother to fly. Why are we bothering to build an infrastructure for all other disabled people for them to access to all of the public buildings and transportation? but at the same time when another type of condition or disability exists among humanity, we just tell them to find a private plane.

This is not a once in a life time event, more people with extra extra weight will want to travel in the future, why does not the airlines design special seats for them. Airlines used to allow passengers rent three seats or five seats and turn them into stretchers during regular flights, so why cant we just try to make the same effort for very big people. We have many genius designers who are designing first class or business class seats that turn into bed, a dinner table for two and a regular seat, I am sure they can find a solution that can convert one part of the aircraft that turns into these kind of condition. Yes there is a safety problem, but I am sure we could find a solution to evacuate and overweight person without effecting anyone else.

I know to talk about idealism during recession times is difficult, why the airlines should pay for such adjustments that will happen maybe once or twice a month or even a year? and why we as the passengers should pay more for that? A hundred years ago, people who were not able to walk did not have a chance to travel to even neighbours house now can travel to anywhere in the world with much ease. I am sure if we put a little effort into this problem we can find an optimum solution for everyone to travel, whatever height, width or weight they have.

Somewhere on the internet now, I am sure there are bunch of people who are surfing through google earth and pretending that they are traveling around the world. Wouldn't be a bit better of our humanity, even with their humongous size, they had a reasonably affordable and safe traveling options just like us and had a chance to fly so they can see this beautiful world as we do everyday?


User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3536 posts, RR: 4
Reply 57, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9736 times:

Her weight is not so much the issue but rather her shape obviously makes it difficult to move around. My first question is how much weight could she have gained in exactly one month that she spent in Hungary? Secondly, she should not have been travelling away from a person familiar with her health issues. I'm wouldn't be surprised if she gained extra weight due to the lack of medical care while she was vacationing in Hungary.


Support the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5608 posts, RR: 5
Reply 58, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9268 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 24):
I wonder if this refusal of available care can be turned around on the family and criminal action taken against them.

No, there is no legal requirement to accept medical care. Similarly, if a next of kin refuses medical care on behalf of an incapacitated patient then they are not legally responsible for their death.

The easiest way of thinking about this is that the patient would have died naturally anyway. While there might have been a reasonable chance of saving them had they received appropriate care, the lack of care wasn't actually the root cause of why they died.

There has been some fairly controversial cases about this, which normally involve somebody smashing their car and injuring somebody in the other car. The person in the other car is taken to hospital, where they refuse care and later die. When the family of the deceased sue the original driver, there is a counter claim that the person would still be alive if they had accepted medical treatment. The courts have been pretty consistent in saying that as the cause of death was the injuries sustained in the accident, then they are liable regardless of intermediate events.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineFrankAMS From Netherlands, joined Nov 2012, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8917 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 57):

Well yes, obviously her size is the issue. If she was 220kg and was 3m tall, I don't think there'd be a huge issue save legroom. But I think it's safe to say that the weight is the reason for her size, and in this instance, the two are interchangeable seeing as her weight was the ultimate reason for ejection from the aircraft (she couldn't be lifted into the seat because she was so heavy).

I do feel bad for this woman, but I have little sympathy for the husband. It seems to me that he's grieving and using his grief as a crutch to game the system and elicit compensation. I don't doubt he loved her, but I know my family would be saying: "yes, it sucks, but it's not the airline's fault he was so heavy." She would have had to have had a serious medical problem before she even left, and had to have known that it was a risky move, traveling. The fact that she brazenly went ahead and traveled is not the airline's fault by any means.

That said, I must say condescension in this thread is amazing. I'm sure that personal responsibility has something to do with it (even kidney failure and water retention will not make a normal-sized person 220kg all of a sudden), but if she had mental health problems which led to her weight problems (ie depression) the fault lies partially in our own system, which apparently let her fall through the cracks. No, she shouldn't have traveled, and the husband should definitely not be suing the airlines, but this whole story might have been avoided if she had proper treatment and help for all of her problems, something which could have been hard for her to do in our current culture. At any rate, we don't know all the facts, and judging her because she was so heavy is easy to do, but neither respectful nor called for. The point is not that she couldn't travel, the point is that her husband is suing because she couldn't travel. The reason for her not traveling is not in question, it's the husband's motives!


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6235 posts, RR: 31
Reply 60, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8872 times:
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Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 51):
And they were on vacation, so I doubt she was eating salads.

As a diabetic myself I can assure you that if I don´t stick to my diet, exercise and medication, even during vacation, I´m going to be pretty miserable for the next couple of months, not to mention the increase on my risk of acquiring numerous, unpleasant illnesses.

So I do think she stuck to her diet. Maybe I could wing it, and indulge somewhat but somebody in her condition can´t. So the mentioned increase of her weight was probably due to her kydneys and her heart not working properly.

Which brings us back to the question: If she was that ill, why did she travel.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 53):
Again, I think you're judging a condition based on very limited information. A person whose kidneys and/or circulatory system is shutting down can begin retaining fluids which can blow her up like a balloon in a matter of days.

I was not passing a judgement on anyone and i´m sorry that my post conveyed that. I was just wondering how the airlines that took her there in the first place were refusing to take her back. I believe the answer to that has now been established.


User currently offlineapjung From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8747 times:

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 16):

Processed foods in America use high fructose corn syrup instead of real sugar compared to the rest of the world. It's possibly a major culprit to the obesity epidemic. That's why I avoid it as much as possible. Do you see any morbidly obese people in France?



Andy P. Jung
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19784 posts, RR: 59
Reply 62, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8403 times:

Quoting LLA001 (Reply 56):
So if we assume it is not their fault, then why we are saying with comfort that they shouldn't even to bother to fly. Why are we bothering to build an infrastructure for all other disabled people for them to access to all of the public buildings and transportation? but at the same time when another type of condition or disability exists among humanity, we just tell them to find a private plane.

Because obesity in and of itself is not a disability.

This woman was disabled because, among other things, she was missing a leg.

Quoting apjung (Reply 61):
rocessed foods in America use high fructose corn syrup instead of real sugar compared to the rest of the world. It's possibly a major culprit to the obesity epidemic. That's why I avoid it as much as possible. Do you see any morbidly obese people in France?

I don't want to drag this too much off-topic, but the HFCS thing is way overblown. The fact is that HFCS is no worse for you than regular sugar (sucrose). Note that aI am not saying that HFCS is safe or healthy. I am saying that regular sugar is every bit as bad. There are a number of studies that back this up. There have been a few animal studies with some significant methodological flaws that have shown HFCS to be worse than sugar, but in humans no difference has been noted.

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 51):
And they were on vacation, so I doubt she was eating salads.

Not only that, but I bet she was eating salty food, which is the kiss of death for a renal patient.

Let's face it: she didn't get into this condition in the first place by following medical advice. I highly doubt that she continued to follow medical advice while on vacation.


User currently offlineboeingrulz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 474 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7847 times:
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Please, do we have to discuss these sensationalistic stories about fat and obese people? The population in the United States is getting more obese for various reasons. The issue is not simple. I just attended a lecture about nutragenomics and nutragenetics and there are many factors dealting with nutritional status of parents and the foetus that affect their epigenetics and thus their ability to have a healthy weight. I am overweight myself and have been struggling for 12 years to get to the point where I fit in an airline seat with some comfort. Economics have an affects so the most inexpensive widely available food is high in fat and simple carbohydrates.

Needless to say there are not easy answers but sensationalizing the issue does not help.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 64, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7402 times:

Since she's missing a foot (likely from diabetes) and would need a wheelchair of some sort...am I the only one wondering how she could fit down the aisle of an aircraft? She looks pretty wide. And how in the world would she manage if she needed to use the lav?

I feel sorry for her but maybe she should've planned to take the Queen Mary 2 instead.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19784 posts, RR: 59
Reply 65, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7390 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 64):
I feel sorry for her but maybe she should've planned to take the Queen Mary 2 instead.

I'm not sure Cunard would have taken someone so medically fragile.


User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 719 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7122 times:
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Quoting Quokkas (Reply 7):
they could have chartered a private plane. But I guess the lack of appropriate cover for medical evacuation would have ruled that out.

Plenty of med-evac companies out there. I suppose the trick is to choose the right one.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
don´t see how a smaller private jet med-evac aircraft would have been able to fit her inside.

You'd be surprised at what can be converted into dedicated med-evac aircraft.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Can you transport a passenger commercially in a cargo plane? No seat? No seatbelt? That can't possibly be legal.

Besides, how much is that going to cost?

It doesn't have to be a full blown 747F. Something smaller will do. Some cargo aircraft (ex-military) can be fitted with seat racks. At times when a life is at risk, I would suggest that costs take a back seat in the decision making process.



Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19784 posts, RR: 59
Reply 67, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6609 times:

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 66):
At times when a life is at risk, I would suggest that costs take a back seat in the decision making process.

Unless you simply can't afford it.


User currently offlinewoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1031 posts, RR: 3
Reply 68, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6411 times:

Here is what does not matter: How or why she became so obese, it has no bearing on the situation or her rights to travel or whatever. What matters is that her size made it manifestly unsafe to travel both for her and other passengers. Airplanes, and as we have argued, cars are designed to be safe for the vast majority of sizes of people and also are designed to be able to operate safely and efficiently within these parameters. There is just no way that someone who is 400+ pounds can be safe on an airplane, no way. They will not be able to fit/ walk down any aisle or fit in the lavatory. They will not be able to evacuate safely, not to mention the health risks someone of that size experiences on extended international air travel. There comes a time when someone who is morbidly obese will not be able to safely travel and it is not only up to them to realize this but ultimately the airline to determine that while protecting the safety and comfort of crews and other passengers. You can buy 2-3-4-5 sears for an obese person, that does not make it safe for them to fly.

User currently offline2175301 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1072 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6162 times:

The crux of the argument is that Airline "A" was willing to fly her from the US to Europe while she was morbidly obese; but then not home again.

I am not sure how the Airline can explain that they are not responsible at some level for that.

Concerning health care outside of the US or Western Europe: This is an area that my wife and I was researching last week as it affects mortality rates - and she was really interested in why there was such a difference between the US and Western Europe and her home country (Ukraine) in life expectancy.

What we found was that by the mid 1960's the soviet block countries by and large had caught up in medical care with the US and Western Europe, and the mortality rates (and life expectancy) were essentially the same. However, since then the medical care in the Soviet Block countries steadily declined and mortality rates went up (expected age of death went down). By 1990 there was significant differences between the US and Western Europe mortality (and life expectancy) and the Soviet Block countries - and medical care was considered significantly substandard. With the breakup of the Soviet Union different countries have done different things - largely dependent on how well their economies have done. I do not recall the information for Hungary; but only two of the former Soviet Block countries had a notable improvement in health care and mortality (life expectancy) since 1990 (and even those have not even come close to catching up to the US and Western Europe). The rest further declined. With poor economies other factors (alcohol and drug use) have also increased in many of those countries which has further affected mortality (life expectancy) in the negative direction.

My wife has many stories concerning what exists for medical care and medical facilities in the Ukraine and Russia (and she moved from a large city in Ukraine this year); and is astonished at what is routinely available to all people here in the US. Two very simple examples: Anesthetic for dentistry is only available for the worst dental problems - thus people do not go to the dentist unless they are in major pain as the pain of dental procedures is substantial. Dentist routinely pull teeth (without anesthetic) instead of filling them. Most medical clinics do not have bathrooms with running water for the sinks. Hospitals may have one bathroom at the end of the hall with running water for the sinks. Modern medical equipment does not exist. A hospital may have purchased an 20+ year old old used machine from Europe - but they usually do not work (she has a friend in the main hospital in her city that was part of a purchase and installation of a used 1st generation MRI machine from Germany that they have never gotten to work).

Thus, I conclude that it is very likely that it is not reasonably possible to even get the kind of medical treatment considered standard in the US and Western Europe.

I can easily see someone with a medical condition deciding that they are in good enough condition to take a 1 or 2 week trip somewhere as long as they can return home afterwards.

Which gets back to the question of why was Airline A willing to fly her to Europe in the first case; and then not willing to fly her home again?

Have a great day,


User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 719 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6105 times:
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Quoting 2175301 (Reply 69):
The crux of the argument is that Airline "A" was willing to fly her from the US to Europe while she was morbidly obese; but then not home again.

I understand that the patient in question gained weight during her stay in europe and thus could no longer safely belong in an aircraft. The airlines were willing to take the patient, but the patient could not be safely placed in the a/c.

Quoting LLA001 (Reply 56):

  



Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offline2175301 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1072 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5978 times:

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 70):

I understand that the patient in question gained weight during her stay in europe and thus could no longer safely belong in an aircraft.

So did she gain 10 - 20 lb; or 50-100 lb during her vacation.

Many people gain 10-20 Lb on a vacation; and given that she weighted 425 Lb in the US before she left; that does not change the basic argument on why was it acceptable for Airline "A" to fly her to Europe and not return her. I actually believe that unless she gained 50+ lb on her visit that a lawsuit against Airline "A" will likely be found to be valid in the US courts based on the fact that they considered it acceptable to take her to Europe.

Have a great day,


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8565 posts, RR: 2
Reply 72, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5919 times:

Sad that the person had a debilitating food addiction, but substance abusers with health problems are not a protected class IMO.

User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 974 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5926 times:

Quoting boeingrulz (Reply 63):
Economics have an affects so the most inexpensive widely available food is high in fat and simple carbohydrates.

Needless to say there are not easy answers but sensationalizing the issue does not help.

I agree. The reason why so many are fat in the US, I believe, is because living a healthy lifestyle is hard in the US. Walkable neighborhoods are expensive to live in, access to cheap, prepared healthy food is scarce and the stress of being poor, overburdened and vulnerable in a capitalist society makes one self-medicate with chemically satisfying yet calorie-dense and fattening food. These are not excuses but rather overwhelming environmental factors that play a role in obesity. We need to tackle the epidemic by fixing our society in addition to fixing our eating patterns. Given this, I believe airlines should make reasonable accommodations for the obese; this would include blocking one row of seats that can hold up to 1,000 pounds for assignment at the gate and designing planes so that the obese can reach the reinforced row. Extra seats should, however, be bought by the obese person so they do not inconvenience other passengers or deprive the airline of revenue by taking up more than one seat.


User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7437 posts, RR: 5
Reply 74, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5716 times:

Quoting tripple7 (Reply 50):
It really makes you wonder how she got to Europe, which seemed to be no issue?

My guess is that boarding people of that size is fairly common in the US and they know how to do it, it's still fairly rare to see a massively obese person like this in Europe, especially somewhere link Hungary where people aren't big.

Quoting boeingrulz (Reply 63):
Economics have an affects so the most inexpensive widely available food is high in fat and simple carbohydrates.

That is simply not true, it's laziness, people find it much easier to buy take out than cook for themselves. Last time I looked fruit and vegetables were still very cheap.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 75, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5635 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 74):

Quoting boeingrulz (Reply 63):
Economics have an affects so the most inexpensive widely available food is high in fat and simple carbohydrates.

That is simply not true, it's laziness, people find it much easier to buy take out than cook for themselves. Last time I looked fruit and vegetables were still very cheap.

That's not generally true in the US. Because of extremely high grain subsidies (especially corn), $/calorie is much lower on high-carb and HFCS-sweetened foods. Fresh fruit and veg is also highly local, perishable, and has limited economies of scale while something with "infinite" shelf life and very high volume, like ramen noodles, is far cheaper.


User currently onlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5533 times:

Quoting apjung (Reply 61):
Do you see any morbidly obese people in France?

Honestly? No.

I have seen obese people in France (actually, scratch that, the EU) but never to the point where it would restrict their movement.

I believe the various incentives we get to eat healthily in France help a lot. There's taxation on sodas, for example. There's also a phrase under every food-related ad saying "Eat healthy, at least 5 fruits or vegetables a day" or something along those lines. Etc. Just stating facts here, not saying it's better necessarily, but it helps IMO.



Cheers
User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 77, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5457 times:
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Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 73):
The reason why so many are fat in the US, I believe, is because living a healthy lifestyle is hard in the US. Walkable neighborhoods are expensive to live in, access to cheap, prepared healthy food is scarce and the stress of being poor, overburdened and vulnerable in a capitalist society makes one self-medicate with chemically satisfying yet calorie-dense and fattening food. These are not excuses but rather overwhelming environmental factors that play a role in obesity.

So very true! It's a proven fact that when the economy craps out, McDonalds and the like make record sales because it's cheap and filling!

135Mech


User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 78, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5430 times:
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Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 73):
Extra seats should, however, be bought by the obese person so they do not inconvenience other passengers or deprive the airline of revenue by taking up more than one seat.



I agree, however there are a lot of obese people (especially Americans) that think they shouldn't have to pay for the upgrade to the bigger seats or for that extra seat... and get offended that they are being "called out"...however they REFUSE to think of the poor (not obese) person that they are squeezing into the window or isle and cannot be considerate of others.

No, I am NOT saying that all large people are this way, BUT...the ones that are, make all of the "noise" and ruin it for everyone else... and that probably is why the American gate attendant let them on, either for fear of the repercussions or this couple made that fuss and got on.... The first part of their flight is not covered, so we do not know how they actually got there in the first place.

Regards,
135mech


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3637 posts, RR: 5
Reply 79, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5367 times:

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 69):

I can easily see someone with a medical condition deciding that they are in good enough condition to take a 1 or 2 week trip somewhere as long as they can return home afterwards.

I don't know what was going on in her head when she decided to travel around the world but considering her health had deteriorated so much, it would be safe to assume that staying close to home where proper healthcare is available would be the wise thing to do. Clearly she was not in a good enough condition to travel, especially to a place where she and her husband would not trust the healthcare providers.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5653 posts, RR: 6
Reply 80, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5321 times:

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 69):

Which gets back to the question of why was Airline A willing to fly her to Europe in the first case; and then not willing to fly her home again?
Quoting 2175301 (Reply 71):
I actually believe that unless she gained 50+ lb on her visit that a lawsuit against Airline "A" will likely be found to be valid in the US courts based on the fact that they considered it acceptable to take her to Europe.

The lawsuit will be "valid", as in a judge will likely agree to hear it... but there's literally ZERO chance of it succeeding.

Also, your wording is far from correct. The airline made EVERY attempt to get the woman on the plane. The simple fact was that it was IMPOSSIBLE for her to be loaded onto the airplane, as the firefighter/medical staff at the airport couldn't even lift her out of her wheelchair.

This wasn't some evil airline that discriminated against a fat person, this was a person that had no chance of fitting onto a standard airliner.

And, in case you missed it, she ballooned in the time she was in Hungary.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 72):
Sad that the person had a debilitating food addiction, but substance abusers with health problems are not a protected class IMO.

Who said that she had a food addiction?



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineLFutia From Netherlands, joined Dec 2002, 3339 posts, RR: 27
Reply 81, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5317 times:

According to this article from the New York Post, the man is suing the 3 airlines for $6 million dollars

"The grieving husband of the Bronx woman who died after being told she was too fat to fly home from Eastern Europe is planning to sue three airlines for a total of $6 million.

“He wants to know why his wife had to die because the airlines simply didn’t want to be inconvenienced,” Ostrov-Ronai, the lawyer representing Janos Soltesz. said yesterday."

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/j...bo_jet_suit_JNSa3bibMYDDqVOmJrs9dK


and then this article from ABC News states that they had no trouble boarding the flight from New York to Amsterdam.

"The couple flew from New York City to Budapest by way of Amsterdam on KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. Soltesz, who had one leg, got on the flight with the help of an airlift, and used a seatbelt extender when seated, Ostrov-Ronai said, adding that the couple had "no issues at all.""

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...uropean-vacation/story?id=17812883

Leo/ORD



Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 82, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5275 times:
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Quoting LFutia (Reply 81):
"The couple flew from New York City to Budapest by way of Amsterdam on KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. Soltesz, who had one leg, got on the flight with the help of an airlift, and used a seatbelt extender when seated, Ostrov-Ronai said, adding that the couple had "no issues at all.""

UGH... So, an "airlift" and "seat belt extenders" are having "no issues at all"??? Sad that they thought this was a true statement!

135Mech


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3637 posts, RR: 5
Reply 83, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5242 times:

Quoting 135mech (Reply 82):
UGH... So, an "airlift" and "seat belt extenders" are having "no issues at all"??? Sad that they thought this was a true statement!

And that was before she gained weight and size during her trip. I still haven't read how much weight she actually gained there.


User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 84, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5171 times:
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Quoting lewis (Reply 83):
Quoting 135mech (Reply 82):
UGH... So, an "airlift" and "seat belt extenders" are having "no issues at all"??? Sad that they thought this was a true statement!

And that was before she gained weight and size during her trip. I still haven't read how much weight she actually gained there.

Precisely! It's a sad that society condones and encoruages this!

135mech


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5141 times:

Maybe some persons are just too big for a civilian airliner? Maybe they would need to go on a cargo aircraft, wider doors and better equipment to lift heavy stuff etc

User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5131 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 83):

Quoting 135mech (Reply 82):
UGH... So, an "airlift" and "seat belt extenders" are having "no issues at all"??? Sad that they thought this was a true statement!

And that was before she gained weight and size during her trip. I still haven't read how much weight she actually gained there.

Yep...if someone's health can deteriorate so quickly and result in death, there is no way said person should be away from their primary physician, especially 4000 miles away.

There is no personal responsibility with this couple and it's a microcosm of today's society in the United States...



Cha brro
User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 602 posts, RR: 2
Reply 87, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5105 times:

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 69):
The crux of the argument is that Airline "A" was willing to fly her from the US to Europe while she was morbidly obese; but then not home again.

I am not sure how the Airline can explain that they are not responsible at some level for that.

Incorrect. KLM flew her to Poland, and Delta was supposed to fly her back. While they're in the same alliance, they're not the same airline, and may have different rules, regulations, and requirements.



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 88, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5031 times:
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Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 86):
Yep...if someone's health can deteriorate so quickly and result in death, there is no way said person should be away from their primary physician, especially 4000 miles away.

There is no personal responsibility with this couple and it's a microcosm of today's society in the United States...

AMEN!!! Blame everyone else and everything else for your problems! It's sad but it is exactly what society is all about now, it's truly disgraceful!

Take care of yourself and be accountable for your actions or inactions!

Regards,
135mech


User currently offlineboysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4875 times:

It's funny that she ended up in Hungary of all places! lol

User currently offlineLFutia From Netherlands, joined Dec 2002, 3339 posts, RR: 27
Reply 90, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4422 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 83):
And that was before she gained weight and size during her trip. I still haven't read how much weight she actually gained there.

Yes I'm curious as well to know how much she gained, but put it this way atleast now shes not suffering anymore.

Leo/ORD



Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
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