PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4938 posts, RR: 15 Posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 17486 times:
Pilot rumor, I know, but before you all begin to discredit me, it does make more sense than the TN rumor about a month ago:
I was chatting it up with a DL pilot after my flight today. This guy was one of the most senior pilots. He said that DL is in the process of having a high number of their pilots retire by the next 3 years. He said this in relation to me expressing some interest in Aviation. The conversation went more like "Oh you like aviation and you're studying Japanese....why not become a pilot? In about 3 years, we're going to need people like you. We're retiring a lot of people." Said the pilot.
He said the domestic 763s should be retired in the next 3 years as well
He also touched upon the 787-8 order, which was deferred until 2020.
The main things he said were 1) DL would prefer to have GE engines and 2) They are more interested in converting that order to 787-9s with GE engines, with a 2014 or 2015 delivery date. He touched upon the fact that it was deferred to 2020 originally and said that "these dates always move up with DL."
How many, if any, 789s would DL order and for which roles ?
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15720 posts, RR: 48 Reply 1, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 17480 times:
Can we just merge this with the MSP Asia FA rumor thread ?
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter): "Oh you like aviation and you're studying Japanese....why not become a pilot? In about 3 years, we're going to need people like you.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 6867 posts, RR: 29 Reply 2, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 17368 times:
Oh good another rumor! Another flight crew rumor too. I'm surprised he didn't talk about another flight to Asia from MSP like the FAs......
So you somehow managed to get secret corporate information from a line pilot who somehow manages to sit-in on senior leadership and BOD meetings, amazing.
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter): was chatting it up with a DL pilot after my flight today
What is his desire to share insider information/rumor/opinion with you?
How do you know this? Why would he tell you this? Was this because he was "older"?
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter): He said that DL is in the process of having a high number of their pilots retire by the next 3 years.
Common trend across the industry.
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter): He said the domestic 763s should be retired in the next 3 years as well
Old news and public information as DL publically mentions this when talking about the 739ER order.
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter): He also touched upon the 787-8 order, which was deferred until 2020.
Old news and public information.
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter): The main things he said were 1) DL would prefer to have GE engines
Sounds like pilot chatter / opinion to me......
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter): 2) They are more interested in converting that order to 787-9s with GE engines, with a 2014 or 2015 delivery date. He touched upon the fact that it was deferred to 2020 originally and said that "these dates always move up with DL."
There is no real indication of such, considering the weakness across the Atlantic, the mods on the 763s, and no immediate need for any additional widebody capacity.
Sounds like more pilot opinion/chatter to me.
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter): How many, if any, 789s would DL order and for which roles ?
No one on a.net would have any reasonable guess, especially since DL by all means still has the order deffered until 2020.
Well a number of airlines, when I have talked to them, say that airlines want pilots who speak multiple languages due to the language barriers, so I think this is a good idea.
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2): What is his desire to share insider information/rumor/opinion with you?
Well as you stated later in your post it's not necessarily insider info.
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2): How do you know this? Why would he tell you this? Was this because he was "older"?
There were multiple pilots on board tonight and they pretty much said "yeah he's one of the top guys" when I was chatting with him.
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2): Old news and public information as DL publically mentions this when talking about the 739ER order.
Exactly, I was just saying.
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2): There is no real indication of such, considering the weakness across the Atlantic, the mods on the 763s, and no immediate need for any additional widebody capacity.
Still we don't quite know as well about the potential for expansion. Older 763s are being retired as well.
N62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3666 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 17024 times:
It's so nice to read all the nasty comments. Really, people, if you disagree, then disagree, but don't act like 8 year olds. The guy had a conversation with a pilot and he's telling us about it!
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter): The conversation went more like "Oh you like aviation and you're studying Japanese....why not become a pilot? In about 3 years, we're going to need people like you. We're retiring a lot of people." Said the pilot.
Let's hope that DL is better prepared than AA has been with regards to pilot retirements!
mplsjefe From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 97 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16969 times:
I guess FAs and Pilots at DL will, apparently and obviously, never know anything more or sooner than many very verbal, and seemingly kinda angry, people on this site.
Quoting N62NA (Reply 5): It's so nice to read all the nasty comments. Really, people, if you disagree, then disagree, but don't act like 8 year olds. The guy had a conversation with a pilot and he's telling us about it!
Ditto.
If we all were as omniscient as some people on this site there would be no need for it.
maxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 854 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16834 times:
Yes, it seems like the comments are a little harsh, but essentially correct. Some pilots endlessly pontificate on the latest rumors and act as if they are privy to "inside information" to anyone who will listen. I can't think of a less reliable source of "inside information" than pilots, or any other front line employees for that matter. The latest one making the rounds is the FAA is going to raise the retirement age to 68. Sure they are.
For the record, I've been a pilot for a major U.S. airline since 1986.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5284 posts, RR: 47 Reply 8, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16791 times:
Hold on, I don't think PHX787 is telling us anything new. DL retiring pilots... well, I've seen the ACTUAL lists (just look on travelnet or deltanet, whatever it's on) and you'll see that starting soon, HUNDREDS of pilots are retiring each year in the next decade.
About the 763s... are you sure he didn't mean that they're merging the ER category with the 767/757 category? I'm sure that some older 763s will be retiring soon, but maybe you misunderstood what the pilot was saying. My dad just bailed from the 767/757 domestic and into the ER category since the domestic category is being gutted and merged with the ER category.
About 789s... haven't heard anything really. I'm sure some DL fleet planners are considering it (as well as the other 787s and A350s)
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 6867 posts, RR: 29 Reply 9, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16773 times:
Pilots and FAs can be a good source of information for near-term operational changes and tactical updates (e.g, within a 3 month horizon). Pilots and FAs often learn of information that has near-term impact to staffing, bases, and fleet planning.
Pilots and FAs are not privy to medium and long term plans, strategic initiatives, and executive decisions. They most certainly are not privy to anything remotely confidential. Nothing that could be released to a competitor, supplier, or a vendor. Nothing that could materially impact the investment community.
The rumor mill is only more amplified since pilots and FAs talk alot together and mix fact, fiction, and opinion. Not a whole lot different than this board.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4938 posts, RR: 15 Reply 11, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16588 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 5): It's so nice to read all the nasty comments. Really, people, if you disagree, then disagree, but don't act like 8 year olds. The guy had a conversation with a pilot and he's telling us about it!
Seriously.
Quoting mayor (Reply 7): Remember, there are lies, damned lies and rumors from pilots.....
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9): Hold on, I don't think PHX787 is telling us anything new.
Honestly guys, I'm not posting this stuff as a matter-of-fact, I'm posting it as a matter-of-interest. It's as if you heard a different rumor on A.net from a different member...except it's not a member; it's a pilot who works for the airline, just like a lot of you. Seriously, if you're going to criticize my posting, then just ignore it. I posted this to have a decent discussion about the viability of what this pilot said happening, or anything regarding what he said. I was especially interested on his take on the 787s.
kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11948 posts, RR: 37 Reply 13, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16507 times:
Just a quick question about the retirements: with the "age 60" rule now having gone, how does DL know how many pilots will actually retire each year? Do pilots need to give DL any advance notice of their intention to retire at 60, or continue on after that?
Are there any statistics as to what what proportion of pilots actually retire at 60, or how many go on, and if so, for how many years?
The removal of the age 60 rule must have proven (is proving?) quite a headache for airline planners.
zeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 7721 posts, RR: 73 Reply 14, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16505 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Well a number of airlines, when I have talked to them, say that airlines want pilots who speak multiple languages due to the language barriers, so I think this is a good idea.
I think its would be a requirement when doing scenic flights in a light aircraft to be multilingual, in an airline like DL, it is not a requirement. I know they like pilot/instructors in Guam to be English/Japanese speakers.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
fxra From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 679 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16206 times:
Quoting kaitak (Reply 14): Just a quick question about the retirements: with the "age 60" rule now having gone, how does DL know how many pilots will actually retire each year? Do pilots need to give DL any advance notice of their intention to retire at 60, or continue on after that?
Are there any statistics as to what what proportion of pilots actually retire at 60, or how many go on, and if so, for how many years?
The removal of the age 60 rule must have proven (is proving?) quite a headache for airline planners
Most companies require a notice of some sort when retiring. with pilots, since it's mandatory at age 65 (in the US) then that's a pretty good indication. Some take early outs, some go to the bitter end. THe removal of age 60 made it easier in the enar term, suddenly they didn't have to hire as many new crews. Though fincanically, they would have rather had lower waged crewmembers than senior ones at top of scale..
Absolutely, the Age 65 rule is coming up on the 5th anniversary. SO all the pilots that would have been forced out 5 years ago are being forced out now.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16803 posts, RR: 57 Reply 16, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16122 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter): "Oh you like aviation and you're studying Japanese....why not become a pilot?
Why would speaking Japanese help? Might help if you were going to be a F/A, pilots only need English. Now, would it be handy on Japan trips? Sure. But not professionally helpful, really.
Why? AFAIK, the only GE engines in the DL fleet at present are the 77L's GE90's. Their 772's are RR, their 747, 757, and 767 fleets are PW, and the A320 and 737 fleets are CFM. I'm not aware that the GEnX is that superior to the Trent that it makes sense to pay a cancellation fee. Both ANA and JL seem to be very happy with their respective choice of engines.
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter): They are more interested in converting that order to 787-9s
That I would believe. I think the 789 will be to the 788 as the 763 was to the 762. The issue is that they need a 763 replacement. The 739 is not a 763 replacement in range or capacity, but rather a better replacement for the 752. The 788 is much closer. That said, they just got a bunch of A330's in the merger and those frames are ten years old or less. It wouldn't shock me to see some of them start to rotate on the former high-capacity 763 domestic routes, such as hub-hub services like ATL/SLC/DTW/JFK.
OTOH, Mr. Anderson has said that he would like to focus more on reducing fuel prices (rather than costs) and operating slightly less efficient airframes that are cheaper to own. So far, that model seems to be working well for the company.
ocracoke From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 652 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16081 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17): AFAIK, the only GE engines in the DL fleet at present are the 77L's GE90's. Their 772's are RR, their 747, 757, and 767 fleets are PW, and the A320 and 737 fleets are CFM. I'm not aware that the GEnX is that superior to the Trent that it makes sense to pay a cancellation fee. Both ANA and JL seem to be very happy with their respective choice of engines.
The 767ER fleet is actually split: a portion is P&W, and the other portion have GE engines on them.
ual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 15758 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3): Well a number of airlines, when I have talked to them, say that airlines want pilots who speak multiple languages due to the language barriers, so I think this is a good idea.
Yeah but Japanese? Come on, I would think that after English, you want to be learning something like Spanish etc before you get to that......from a flight crew point of view I cannot make sense of that comment from the pilot.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16): Why would speaking Japanese help? Might help if you were going to be a F/A, pilots only need English. Now, would it be handy on Japan trips? Sure. But not professionally helpful, really.
I do love all the rumours pilots come out with though, it makes this forum very interesting sometimes.
and we should not knock the thread starters
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7340 posts, RR: 7 Reply 19, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15161 times:
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2): Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
2) They are more interested in converting that order to 787-9s with GE engines, with a 2014 or 2015 delivery date. He touched upon the fact that it was deferred to 2020 originally and said that "these dates always move up with DL."
There is no real indication of such, considering the weakness across the Atlantic, the mods on the 763s, and no immediate need for any additional widebody capacity
Delta took dlivery of its first 767-300ER back in 1991, they have to be replaced some time sonner then 2020. With 60 international 763ER's Delta needs more then that since its possible the 787-9 fleet would replace the NW A330 fllet too, this would standardize the meduim size long haul fleet.
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 5751 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13238 times:
Quoting ocracoke (Reply 17): The 767ER fleet is actually split: a portion is P&W, and the other portion have GE engines on them.
Yep, and all of DL's 764ERs are GE-powered as well.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
Md88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1287 posts, RR: 22 Reply 21, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13060 times:
Everything that pilot said was basic common industry/DAL knowledge. DAL prefers GE? Yes. Mandatory pilot retirements increasing over the next few years? Duh, Yes. DAL wants the 787-900 over the -800? Yes.
Any second language is nice for an otherwise qualified applicant, but... using the search function, priceless.
Catiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2274 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12126 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3): There were multiple pilots on board tonight and they pretty much said "yeah he's one of the top guys" when I was chatting with him.
"Senior" as in he's been at the company a long time and therefore is high on the seniority list, or "senior" as in he's a Director, VP, or SVP of Flight Ops?
timf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 954 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10400 times:
There's no doubt the domestic 763s are on the way out. The 753 fleet is being refurbished to serve as their direct replacement, while the 739ER order backfills lost 757 capacity. I'm hopeful for a revised 787 order, but wouldn't read anything into those rumors at this time.
seabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 4277 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10324 times:
Delta has often said that narrowbody replacement is its near-term priority, and that the current widebody fleet will serve its needs fine until about 2020. And that makes sense. In the near term the airline will be paying for 100 new 739ERs and adding leases for at least 88 717-200s. And a further narrowbody order will be needed before the end of the decade to replace the remaining domestic 757s and the MD-88s.
Delta's current management is also famously stingy with capital expenditures. I find it hard to believe they will buy even more aircraft than listed above in the next few years, especially when they are in the late stages of a floor-to-ceiling renovation of their existing widebody fleet. So conversion of the -8s to -9s or even the RRs to GEs is certainly a possibility, but getting 787s sooner than 2020 is much less likely.
Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
Fabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1111 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10476 times:
Quoting ual777uk (Reply 18): I do love all the rumours pilots come out with though, it makes this forum very interesting sometimes.
and we should not knock the thread starters
Yes, indeed.
I do have to wonder though... whether it has ever happened... that someone from airline management has read a rumor about his airline on the internet, and thought "Hell, that is actually a good idea!" and made it happen....
The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4938 posts, RR: 15 Reply 26, posted (5 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9651 times:
Quoting Catiii (Reply 22): "Senior" as in he's been at the company a long time and therefore is high on the seniority list, or "senior" as in he's a Director, VP, or SVP of Flight Ops?
I never really got any of that info, as it wasn't really important to me.
Quoting timf (Reply 23): There's no doubt the domestic 763s are on the way out. The 753 fleet is being refurbished to serve as their direct replacement,
Here's the thing I'm concerned about: are there enough 753s around to actually take over this role?
seabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 4277 posts, RR: 4 Reply 27, posted (5 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9441 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26): Here's the thing I'm concerned about: are there enough 753s around to actually take over this role
No, but there are plenty of smaller aircraft allowing for either an increase in frequency or an improvement in yield on appropriate routes. When you are as big as Delta, capacity is very fungible.
Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3952 posts, RR: 36 Reply 28, posted (5 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9246 times:
Everything he stated is true, just misunderstood here by people that aren't familiar with what is in motion:
The domestic 763s he speaks of are the non ETOPs non ER 763s (e.g. ships 121-139)... there are only about 10 of those left and they will be replaced by the 739s.
It is well known DL now prefers GE and prefers the 789. It is VERY well know the massive amount of retirements there are coming up. Over the next 10 years there are almost 6000, or half the list.
None of what he stated was rumors- all are current stated plans from upper mgmt or a reality of the wave of retirements.
N62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3666 posts, RR: 4 Reply 29, posted (5 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8904 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19): Delta took dlivery of its first 767-300ER back in 1991, they have to be replaced some time sonner then 2020.
Why would they have to be replaced sooner than 2020? If the oldest DL 763ER is still flying in 2020, it would be just 29 years old. DL has flown DC9s much older than that.
seabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 4277 posts, RR: 4 Reply 30, posted (5 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8837 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19): Delta took dlivery of its first 767-300ER back in 1991, they have to be replaced some time sonner then 2020.
Delta has said it's aiming for a 30-year life for its aircraft where possible. And the refit of all 58 763ERs, even the early '90s builds, shows that it's planning to keep the entire fleet in service for awhile.
In 2020 or so the airline will need to be receiving airplanes to replace both 744 and 763ER capacity. Before then, they will be spending their money on narrowbodies.
Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7340 posts, RR: 7 Reply 31, posted (5 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8454 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 29): Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19):
Delta took dlivery of its first 767-300ER back in 1991, they have to be replaced some time sonner then 2020.
Why would they have to be replaced sooner than 2020? If the oldest DL 763ER is still flying in 2020, it would be just 29 years old. DL has flown DC9s much older than that
A DC-9 is a completely different airplane. But AA is ditching all its DC-9-80 or MD-80, as they are popularly known, should AA be keeping them ? Some "old" planes age better then others, but 30 year old 767 to Europe do not make a very competitive airplane, the Euro airlines will be flying A330's, 777, A380, and 787's. IN 2020 a 767 is NOT an appealing plane to Europe whatever its economivs may be. Delta is not as smooth as BA when they kept their 747-100 flying until 1998 when they had new 744 too. The "old" plane idea can be pulled off domestically but not internationally, even Latin American airlines have new planes, LAN 787 anyone.
Why do you guys keep doing this? What makes you think that the word of any airline pilot is taken in stone? I never talk to pilots on stuff like this, they say ridiculous stuff making it sound too good to be true. Anything that a pilot says that a company will do or not do is usually taken with an aircraft carrier-load of salt, cubed squared infinity and beyond.
Talking to a pilot on this stuff is the common mistaken made in A.net.
I'll believe it when I see it.....
Edit: grammar & spelling.
[Edited 2012-11-27 12:22:04]
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Yes and that LAN 787 is sitting right next to a brand new LAN 767.
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26): Here's the thing I'm concerned about: are there enough 753s around to actually take over this role?
There are more 753 aircraft in the fleet than domestic 767 aircraft.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19): Delta took delivery of its first 767-300ER back in 1991, they have to be replaced some time sonner then 2020.
The oldest 767ER in the fleet that was delivered new to DL, ship 171 has less than 15K cycles on the airframe. It has lots of reliable life left in it.
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 5751 posts, RR: 2 Reply 36, posted (5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7445 times:
Quoting B757forever (Reply 35): There are more 753 aircraft in the fleet than domestic 767 aircraft.
Furthermore, it has been stated that DL will be keeping the ETOPS domestic 763s (ships 1401-1404) for some of the Hawaii flights; only the non-ETOPS aircraft will be eliminated for now. The ETOPS domestic 763s are considerably younger than the non-ETOPS aircraft, with the newest one (1404) being built in 1999.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
DTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 527 posts, RR: 2 Reply 37, posted (5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7215 times:
The removal of the age 60 retirement, the DL bankruptcy and dumping the pilot pension on the governement, IMHO, means that more pilots are reexamining their finances and retirement plans. More pilots are flying now until they are 65 so they can been up their personal finances. Another one of the sadder aspects of BK.
Sad the domestic 763s are being phased out though. I wonder how much money they spent on the cabin and AVOD refurbishments only to be retired 4-5 years after the fact. They are pretty sweet rides, I'll miss them when they are gone.
Having said that, quite a few were delivered in 1987-1988 so age may have something to do with it (still there are 757s that were delivered in 1984-1985 and still flying.)
"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
Those look like what is on APC and they are wrong on the low side. Ive submitted in a correction. There are 3 years in a row that will be above 800 a year, for example.
Let me also reiterate that everything this pilot is quoted as saying is correct.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7340 posts, RR: 7 Reply 44, posted (5 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5813 times:
Quoting B757forever (Reply 35): The oldest 767ER in the fleet that was delivered new to DL, ship 171 has less than 15K cycles on the airframe. It has lots of reliable life left in it.
Many Pan AM and TWA 747-100 have between 15,000 and 20,000 cycles but 90,000 hours on the frames. It looks like ship 171 needs to go on Medicare and Social Security and not work so hard. Give the 787-9 a chance. All I am advocating is DL needs a 767 replacement plan and now they don't have one.
seabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 4277 posts, RR: 4 Reply 45, posted (5 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5542 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 44): All I am advocating is DL needs a 767 replacement plan and now they don't have one.
They most certainly do. The 787 order with deliveries beginning in 2020. They may change the -8s to -9s, but either way the new capacity will replace 763ER capacity, at the time when the 763ERs are reaching the end of their useful lives.
Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 5751 posts, RR: 2 Reply 46, posted (5 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5475 times:
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 45): They most certainly do. The 787 order with deliveries beginning in 2020. They may change the -8s to -9s, but either way the new capacity will replace 763ER capacity, at the time when the 763ERs are reaching the end of their useful lives.
Furthermore, the 764ERs have even more useful life, and are the second most efficient widebodies in DL's current fleet (only behind the A333). They will probably remain in service until at least 2025.
[Edited 2012-11-27 16:01:00]
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4938 posts, RR: 15 Reply 47, posted (5 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5362 times:
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 27): No, but there are plenty of smaller aircraft allowing for either an increase in frequency or an improvement in yield on appropriate routes. When you are as big as Delta, capacity is very fungible.
That makes sense.
Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 28): The domestic 763s he speaks of are the non ETOPs non ER 763s (e.g. ships 121-139)... there are only about 10 of those left and they will be replaced by the 739s.
Built in the 80s as well, the plane I was on was "an 80s jet" according to the pilot.
Quoting B757forever (Reply 35): There are more 753 aircraft in the fleet than domestic 767 aircraft.
I see, thank you NW
Quoting B757forever (Reply 35): The oldest 767ER in the fleet that was delivered new to DL, ship 171 has less than 15K cycles on the airframe. It has lots of reliable life left in it.
Not to mention that they had deliveries up until the early 2000s, IIRC?
Quoting Catiii (Reply 41): Where are the the domestic 763's flying these days?
dlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 697 posts, RR: 1 Reply 48, posted (5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5231 times:
Quoting Catiii (Reply 41): Where are the the domestic 763's flying these days?
There are a good amount of domestic routes
Usually hub to hub
LAX,SFO,SAN,SEA,LAS,MSY,PDX,PHX, I bet there are more but those are just what came off of the top my head.
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 39): Sad the domestic 763s are being phased out though. I wonder how much money they spent on the cabin and AVOD refurbishments only to be retired 4-5 years after the fact. They are pretty sweet rides, I'll miss them when they are gone.
Indeed it is I know they are getting near their retirement dates but I would not be surprised if they dung around a little longer.
BTW I am not looking forward to the 739ERs coming online
Worked/Planned Loads on: CRJ-2,CRJ-7,CRJ-9,737-4,737-7,737-8,757-2,757-3,767-3,A319,A320,A330,MD83,MD90
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 49, posted (5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5190 times:
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 48): BTW I am not looking forward to the 739ERs coming online
If they come with the magic carpet, they're great! I love working on them. If they don't have them, then good luck! (The 738's are not that bad though)
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 5751 posts, RR: 2 Reply 50, posted (5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5178 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 47): Not to mention that they had deliveries up until the early 2000s, IIRC?
Yep, the 76Ts were delivered in the early 2000s, as well as all the 764ERs, with the newest 767 in the fleet (N845MH, built in 2002) being the most beautiful aircraft in the world:
That is what I am wondering. DL used to have the magic carpet system on the 738s but took it out for fuel saving purposes (please correct me if I am wrong, just assumed) and that bin can be a pain sometimes depending on which hub loaded it.
Worked/Planned Loads on: CRJ-2,CRJ-7,CRJ-9,737-4,737-7,737-8,757-2,757-3,767-3,A319,A320,A330,MD83,MD90
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9157 posts, RR: 14 Reply 52, posted (5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5122 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 44): Many Pan AM and TWA 747-100 have between 15,000 and 20,000 cycles but 90,000 hours on the frames.
I would imagine a large number of cycles would be harder on an a/c than the number of hours.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 44): All I am advocating is DL needs a 767 replacement plan and now they don't have one.
Just because you don't know of it, doesn't mean they don't have one. I would imagine that the 787s that they have on the deferred order are part of it, but they don't feel they need a replacement, right this minute. All the pax are going to see on the refurbished 767s is the interior, so they'll think they're pretty new. Seems like a sound investment for the time being.
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 47): Built in the 80s as well, the plane I was on was "an 80s jet" according to the pilot.
Had to be LATE 80s for a 767-300.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9157 posts, RR: 14 Reply 54, posted (5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4914 times:
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 48): but I would not be surprised if they dung around a little longer.
Is this an attempt to say they are crap or just a Freudian slip?
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 49): If they come with the magic carpet, they're great! I love working on them. If they don't have them, then good luck!
Oh, for God sakes........put your big boy pants on and just work the flight! Think about us oldtimers that used to do 737-200s, CV880s, DC-8s and 727s.........LOL
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 53): The 767-300 entered production in 1986 while the 767-200 started in 1982.
So, when did DL take delivery of the first -300? '87? If so, that would make it the late 80s.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
Acey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1336 posts, RR: 2 Reply 55, posted (5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4874 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3): Well a number of airlines, when I have talked to them, say that airlines want pilots who speak multiple languages due to the language barriers, so I think this is a good idea.
May depend on the company, but we're told the opposite. We have many pilots here that speak Spanish but we're told to never speak Spanish (not that it matters for me, personally) when flying to Mexico or French when flying to Canada because dialects and slang may be more confusing than just using standard phraseology in English. Again, it may depend on the company as to how they prefer to handle that, but mine tells us to explicitly use English because it's safer.
2. 763 non etops domestic config aircraft are going away pretty soon.
Correct as per flight ops management. The 739 deliveries are going to be replacing their lift.
3. 789 is the preferred equipment over the 788.
Correct- stated by Richard Anderson on a number of occassions. I'm not sure about the GE engine thing, but I know the 789 thing is from the proverbial horse's mouth.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 61, posted (5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4312 times:
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 51): DL used to have the magic carpet system on the 738s
On the sCO airplanes, there aren't any magic carpets on the 738's, but they are not that bad to load. I enjoy the 738. People think I'm insane when I tell them that at work. I don't get it.... I just love the 737 in general. It was the first aircraft I ever worked on when I started my airline career at AS.
Quoting mayor (Reply 54): Oh, for God sakes........put your big boy pants on and just work the flight! Think about us oldtimers that used to do 737-200s, CV880s, DC-8s and 727s.........LOL
See what I wrote above, on this post.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
aviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1344 posts, RR: 12 Reply 62, posted (5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4201 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter): "Oh you like aviation and you're studying Japanese....why not become a pilot? In about 3 years, we're going to need people like you. We're retiring a lot of people." Said the pilot.
What did he mean by "people like you" ? I think he was referring to pilots in general, not to the idea that in three years time somebody could expect to go from having no flight experience whatsoever to becoming a Delta pilot. That's just ridiculous.
If and when they finally begin hiring again, expect competitive civilian candidates to have a bare minimum of 5,000 total hours, most of it previous airline time.
PS
[Edited 2012-11-27 18:13:31]
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 5751 posts, RR: 2 Reply 64, posted (5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3636 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 63): Really? I did not know that. How did that come about?
For the domestic 763 fleet (except 1401-1404), DL went with the GE CF6-80A for commonality with the 762 fleet; DL was the only airline to order the 763 with them. With the 763ER fleet, DL simply went for whatever is the best engine available at the time. With the first batch of 763ERs, as well as ships 1401-1404, DL went with the PW4060. However, after the improvements GE made with the CF6-80C2 series, DL decided to make the switch for their later 763ERs and for the 764ERs.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 63): Why do they care? NW ordered RR, right? Wouldn't DL have a penalty to pay for canceling that order?
Perhaps, however, if DL switches to the 789, there could perhaps be some workaround. A possibility could be that DL places a separate 789 order with GE engines, and sell off the RR-powered 788s prior to delivery, similar to what was done of many of DL's 738s on order (DL only accepted two aircraft from the order). There are rumors that DL plans doing the same with the NW A319s/A320s on order.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6506 posts, RR: 11 Reply 67, posted (5 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3115 times:
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 39): still there are 757s that were delivered in 1984-1985 and still flying.)
But they're heading out the door. Quite a few have been sent out for storage pending return to the lessor. A few are also sytematically coming up on their last PSV so expect those to be gone in a few years.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 44): All I am advocating is DL needs a 767 replacement plan and now they don't have one.
Who says they don't have one. You? DL is spending money on the 767 upgrades as we speak. A replacement is a ways down the road and by then, the 787 will be refined. 2020 is just a placeholder. They may decide to start taking some here and there in '18.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
Deltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8576 posts, RR: 8 Reply 68, posted (5 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3001 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Why? AFAIK, the only GE engines in the DL fleet at present are the 77L's GE90's. Their 772's are RR, their 747, 757, and 767 fleets are PW, and the A320 and 737 fleets are CFM. I'm not aware that the GEnX is that superior to the Trent that it makes sense to pay a cancellation fee. Both ANA and JL seem to be very happy with their respective choice of engines.
Delta has more Pratts in the fleet than anything.
~240 219s, ~300 2037s and ~120 4000s
Delta has ~100 CF6s has ~20 GE90s
They have ~16 T800s and will have ~176 of the BMW engine.
Then the rest of the fleet is CFM56-5s and -7s and then the V2500s on the M90s.
Quoting Md88Captain (Reply 21): Everything that pilot said was basic common industry/DAL knowledge. DAL prefers GE? Yes.
How so? One would think Delta is still making progression payments on both the 787 and the Trents to power them. It is likely that if they were going to go GE they would have done so already.
Something that also clearly seems to be missed here is that Delta will be the only USA T1000 carrier. Both AA and UA have gone with GE(and US doesn't seem to be ordering any 787s) This will likely mean very good pricing for Delta just to keep them around.
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 24): So conversion of the -8s to -9s or even the RRs to GEs is certainly a possibility, but getting 787s sooner than 2020 is much less likely.
I don't see why.....I would have thought by now a.net has learned that Boeing has slots for those that need them. Fairly amazing how the 737NG line is "full" yet Delta is about to get 100 of those bad boys fairly soon.
says who? Delta seems to order the best engine for the planes. (and they haven't ordered anything lately that they could go with RR/PW anyways.)
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 31): IN 2020 a 767 is NOT an appealing plane to Europe whatever its economivs may be.
.....So you have proof to back that up right?
Quoting B757forever (Reply 35):
The oldest 767ER in the fleet that was delivered new to DL, ship 171 has less than 15K cycles on the airframe. It has lots of reliable life left in it.
This
Quoting B757forever (Reply 35):
Yes and that LAN 787 is sitting right next to a brand new LAN 767.
can't be. Those new 767s going to TOC for winglet mods have all been a lie!
yes they do. its on order and its the 787. (and something tells me that you haven't been on a refurbed 767. Or you are crazy and don't like 2-3-2 over the 330/777 configs)
Quoting mayor (Reply 52): I would imagine a large number of cycles would be harder on an a/c than the number of hours.
eh. Cycles are bad for sure, but hours do matter. The important thing though would be pressure cycles. Take a paper clip and bend it up and down.....at some point it will fail. That is your aircraft skin and such.
Correct- stated by Richard Anderson on a number of occassions. I'm not sure about the GE engine thing, but I know the 789 thing is from the proverbial horse's mouth.
both will likely end up in the fleet. The 789 is just to big for some of the 763 routes....that is of course if DALPA doesn't give AF/KL all of its Euro flying. ATL/JFK/DTW/MSP-CDG/AMS/LHR will do fine on the 789
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 63): Why do they care? NW ordered RR, right? Wouldn't DL have a penalty to pay for canceling that order?
and I would think they are paying progression payments to Boeing and Rolls. (but i'm sure they would have to pay to cancel. Also read above as to why, IMO, Delta will have T1000 787s.)
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 3163 posts, RR: 1 Reply 70, posted (5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2570 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 44): All I am advocating is DL needs a 767 replacement plan and now they don't have one.
I just flew one home from SLC, and it had PTV's, which I am not a fan of as the selection is poor but still an aircraft its self could keep flying for years. See the DL DC-9's. I love those little aircraft.
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6506 posts, RR: 11 Reply 71, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1842 times:
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 67): But they're heading out the door. Quite a few have been sent out for storage pending return to the lessor. A few are also sytematically coming up on their last PSV so expect those to be gone in a few years.
To add to this remark, ships 624, 625, 626, 628, 629, 657, 5527, and 124 are all being returned to their lessors within the next 12 months.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6506 posts, RR: 11 Reply 74, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1540 times:
Quoting brilondon (Reply 72): A question since the topic has come up here about replacing the 767, why did DL order the non-er version of the plane?
DL wanted a capable domestic widebody a/c. They've served them well for over 20 years now but they've reached thei sunset. I suspect all will be gone by 15 or 16.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3777 posts, RR: 14 Reply 75, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1514 times:
Quoting brilondon (Reply 72): A question since the topic has come up here about replacing the 767, why did DL order the non-er version of the plane?
Delta used to have a very different domestic network. Summer 2000 timetable shows ATL-MCO with 12 widebodies per day, ATL-TPA and ATL-FLL 9 each. ATL was used as a high volume connect point to FL - a business that was eaten away after Southwest started serving Florida in 1996 and JetBlue started flying in 2000. Even today's relatively thin markets like ATL-BDL had a wide-body departure in 2000.
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