okAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 554 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7631 times:
Hello all,
Finnair has announced a new long haul route starting in Summer 2013. AY will start flights to Hanoi in Vietnam. By doing so, it will be the first European airline to serve this city from Europe.
With this move AY is following its strategy to be the fast airlink between Europe and Asia.
Great news for AY! I wonder which aircraft type is going to be used? Does this mean a new frame needs to be acquired or is there space in schedules with the ones AY has at the moment?
ba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8275 posts, RR: 56 Reply 1, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7610 times:
Superb news!
Finnair won't be alone in this market place for very long, I expect other European carriers to be adding either HAN or SGN to the network in the future.
I suspect they will need a 343 for this route, perhaps a tad far for their 333's?
iksu From Finland, joined Nov 2011, 5 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7463 times:
Hi,
I might as well make this my first post after lurking around a.net for quite some time.
As per information in Finnair intranet, A330 will be used to operate this route. Flight times are HEL HAN 10h 10min and return 10h 50min. This will not be capacity increase as flight will operate with aircraft released from shuffling around summer schedule. Initially this will be a seasonal route only, operational from summer 2013 to 27OCT13.
I hope we do well with this 12th Asian destination!
okAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 554 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7427 times:
I am a little surprised of the choice,as mentioned here a few airlines have tried it with little success. Now, I am sure AY has made their homework and done market analysis to see if the profit is there or not. Have they found a market others have missed? I had been waiting for a new long haul announcement from AY for some time now, but I must admit I had my bet on KUL.
smbukas From Lithuania, joined Feb 2009, 105 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 7354 times:
LOT tried Hanoi with 767 from WAW and OK served Vietnam with A320 on a technical stop.
Both stopped. AFAIK, load factors were good, but not enough yield.
The thing is, that Vietnamese populations in Poland, Czech Republic and around are quite big and most of them now using hubs in the west to get there (FRA, AMS, MUC, CDG, etc.) or TK to Ho Chi Minh City. Finnair is really strong in Eastern Europe feeding HEL so I think, they believe they just become best available option in this market. They are able to do this route with existing fleet so maybe they will make money from seasonal route even with not so high yield.
BreninTW From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1469 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 7258 times:
Instead of drawing on feed from Europe, could AY be planning on connecting from the East Coast US? It would make some sense to travel from East Coast US to HAN via HEL, rather than flying through LAX.
According to the Great Circle Mapper, NYC - HEL - HAN is approximately 2,000 miles shorter than NYC - LAX - HAN.
(Sorry, can't get a workable link to post)
I can't see any point in going north from Eastern Europe to HEL and then to HAN when you could fly via one of the Middle Eastern hubs.
I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
smbukas From Lithuania, joined Feb 2009, 105 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6821 times:
Quoting BreninTW (Reply 9): I can't see any point in going north from Eastern Europe to HEL and then to HAN when you could fly via one of the Middle Eastern hubs.
The same - it is shorter way. PRG/WAW - HEL - HAN is 500 nm shorter then PRG/WAW - DXB - HAN. And still, MEB3 is not so strong in Eastern Europe. Emirates and Qatar is coming to WAW only next year. No MEB3 in Baltics, other Poland cities except WAW, BUD has only Qatar, etc.
Even LON-HEL-HAN is 900nm shorter then LON-DXB-HAN. That is the model Finnair business plan is based on.
okAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 554 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6785 times:
Quoting BreninTW (Reply 9): Instead of drawing on feed from Europe, could AY be planning on connecting from the East Coast US? It would make some sense to travel from East Coast US to HAN via HEL, rather than flying through LAX.
According to the Great Circle Mapper, NYC - HEL - HAN is approximately 2,000 miles shorter than NYC - LAX - HAN.
(Sorry, can't get a workable link to post)
North-America-Asia through HEL has been discussed for years. Let's see what AY has stored. But I think they might want to wait for the economic sitution to improve a little in the US before and if they are to make a move in that direction.
AY has already been selling North America to Asia already albeit it had not the greatest connections and one way was with BA. I was going to grab a ticket at a reasonable fare from YYZ to ICN, but then the fare jumped on me and I ended up going to Asia via another untraditional routing.
Same here, I expected KUL or India when heard rumors something new coming up. Hanoi sounds a bit risky but anyway good to get a new LH route in HEL, even if seasonal.
g2scandinavia From Norway, joined Jun 2010, 453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6559 times:
I think it's a great move for Finnair and probably a service that are more aimed to serve Nordic passengers rather than Europe in general. In that way, I think the failure of LOT and CSA has little relevant as the average income and travel pattern are of significant difference from the Nordic countries. This part of Asia is a huge market from FI/SE/DK/NO.
Thailand is booming from all the Nordic countries with ridiculously high capacity and an demand that seems to never end. Vietnam could easily surf on the same wave and I think that's what Finnair are thinking too. It's a "new" destination for travelers loving Thailand who want's to crank up their vacation with something more exotic. Don't forget that many Nordic passengers have visited Thailand several times and that Vietnam are seen as a "new" Thailand for those who are seeking a new taste of Asia.
The success of a carrier depends on it's ability to build it owns markets. I therefore think it's very vice of Finnair to launch Vietnam. Also when it comes to the future competition with Norwegian who most definitely have stated that Vietnam will be launched from OSL and ARN in the near future.
My only thought is why they launch it for the summer season? Would not the demand be greater during the winter?
HELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 654 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6532 times:
Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 15): I was going to grab a ticket at a reasonable fare from YYZ to ICN
I would stay out of the 757 they have on HEL-YYZ, terribly cramped charter-type configuration, it's a shame they use it in scheduled service. Luckily they don't have many 757's left.
twa@fra From Germany, joined Nov 2000, 131 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6439 times:
With the increasing FDI into VN, means a lot of factories of blue chip companies opening as well as their supplies, I'm sure business travel must have increased quite a bit, which is a totally different market as VFR OK and to a certain extend LOT was focused on. Anyhow with TG,SQ alikes nearby, a tough market / area IMO
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4169 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5305 times:
Quoting g2scandinavia (Reply 17): I think the failure of LOT and CSA has little relevant as the average income and travel pattern are of significant difference from the Nordic countries.
However, the failure of AF should mean something. If AF can't make HAN work why would AY be able to do so? Yes, VN flies CDG-HAN (and LGW/FRA-HAN) but they have a lower cost base than AY.
Quoting twa@fra (Reply 19): With the increasing FDI into VN, means a lot of factories of blue chip companies opening as well as their supplies, I'm sure business travel must have increased quite a bit, which is a totally different market as VFR OK and to a certain extend LOT was focused on. Anyhow with TG,SQ alikes nearby, a tough market / area IMO
AFAIK Ho Chi Minh City is the main economic city in Vietnam, hence why it sees more air service.
JAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1213 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4765 times:
Quoting iksu (Reply 4): Initially this will be a seasonal route only, operational from summer 2013 to 27OCT13.
Interesting season - Finnair will be flying during the hottest part of the year! I would think - for leisure markets anyway - that the winter months would have greater demand. I'm no businessman, but I don't know that I'd want to fly to Vietnam during the summer!
AYVN From Vietnam, joined Jun 2011, 2 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4323 times:
I think it's quite ok season for Hanoi. It will be hot and humid in Jun - Oct, but during European winter, it's rather freezing in Hanoi. Actually anything north of Da Nang is quite cool in winter time, not good for heat seeking tourists. During winter season SGN would be the place to go.
What I would like to know is how AY is going to fill business seats? All economy would fly full every time as many Vietnamese living in Europe are real bargain hunters...
HELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 654 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4119 times:
Quoting AYVN (Reply 24): What I would like to know is how AY is going to fill business seats?
HAN probably gets their newest A333's with most Y seats. And with the latest fully flat seats in Business Class
In winter these new birds often fly long haul charter routes... kind of odd but seems to work.
Lufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3086 posts, RR: 10 Reply 26, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3342 times:
Quoting HELyes (Reply 25): HAN probably gets their newest A333's with most Y seats. And with the latest fully flat seats in Business Class
In winter these new birds often fly long haul charter routes... kind of odd but seems to work.
I'm guessing this is purely because they have more economy seats? I'm sure the J class travellers on the normal routes would prefer those seats?
twa@fra From Germany, joined Nov 2000, 131 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3412 times:
Quoting LJ (Reply 22): AFAIK Ho Chi Minh City is the main economic city in Vietnam, hence why it sees more air service.
I do not have any figures on hand of the split between north and south VN, as I was in Hanoi the last time I was just really impressed by all these new factories, a lot of IT/computer related (Canon etc..), Also judging from the business I'm in (logistics), Automotive also seems to be stronger in the north, even heard from fashion suppliers that it is getting hard for them to find workers, because IT & Automotive offers a much better working environment .....
still, I wonder that will be enough to fill that flight yet.....
HELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 654 posts, RR: 1 Reply 28, posted (6 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3017 times:
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 26): I'm guessing this is purely because they have more economy seats? I'm sure the J class travellers on the normal routes would prefer those seats?
Yes the number of Y seats is the reason, I wish all their wide bodies had the new J-class seats. I once flew a 6h charter flight HEL-LPA in the new J-class of AY 333, was a rather exceptional leisure flight experience.
Lufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3086 posts, RR: 10 Reply 30, posted (6 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2897 times:
Just as an Aside where does finnair usually send those A330s with the flat beds?
They're a good way to get from Australia to Northern Europe in J at a reasonable price
and i'm taking somebody who probably wants a flat bed.
HELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 654 posts, RR: 1 Reply 31, posted (6 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2862 times:
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 30): Just as an Aside where does finnair usually send those A330s with the flat beds?
They're a good way to get from Australia to Northern Europe in J at a reasonable price
and i'm taking somebody who probably wants a flat bed.
From Australia the best chance to get AY flat bed is via BKK, rarely seen on HEL-HKG. HEL-SIN is only served by A343 due the distance.
In Asia BKK gives the best chances, served 2x daily in winter with mixed fleet. It looks also DEL gets flat bed flights this winter, didn't check other routes.
AY's online booking shows codes for the different configurations in J: 333=angled seats, 330=flat beds. Their 343's hardly get flat beds.
doug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3167 posts, RR: 4 Reply 36, posted (6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2689 times:
Quoting BreninTW (Reply 9): Instead of drawing on feed from Europe, could AY be planning on connecting from the East Coast US? It would make some sense to travel from East Coast US to HAN via HEL, rather than flying through LAX.
According to the Great Circle Mapper, NYC - HEL - HAN is approximately 2,000 miles shorter than NYC - LAX - HAN.
(Sorry, can't get a workable link to post)
I can't see any point in going north from Eastern Europe to HEL and then to HAN when you could fly via one of the Middle Eastern hubs.
No necessarily a fair comparison since this wouldn't be the preferred traffic flow, in fact no one even flies LAX-HAN.
NYC-HEL-HAN is about 200 or so miles longer than going via ICN/TPE/HKG, so it could definitely be competitive, though I'm not sure if there is much traffic. My understanding is that most Vietnamese traffic in the US originates from the LA basin and East Bay area.
True about Vietnam becoming more and more popular among the holiday package travellers from the Nordic countries. But still the destination is a mystery, as AY will be offering charter route to Saigon on A330. Why not make the Saigon route like Toronto-route is, half/half scheduled/charter -service?
When it comes to comparing LO and CSA and AY, one has to remember AY has much more experience and "name" in Asian markets than the two airlines, this must count for something.
bestwestern From Ireland, joined Sep 2000, 6507 posts, RR: 58 Reply 38, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2023 times:
Am i correct in guessing that this means no additional Chinese service in 2013? I had heard very credible rumours of a western Chinese city being launched in 2013.
HELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 654 posts, RR: 1 Reply 39, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1990 times:
Quoting bestwestern (Reply 38): Am i correct in guessing that this means no additional Chinese service in 2013? I had heard very credible rumours of a western Chinese city being launched in 2013.
I think it's possible we'll see a new (Chinese) destination next winter season, especially if HAN remains seasonal. Not sure how Chongqing is performing, there are often cheap tickets available.
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