OlympicATH From Greece, joined Jul 2001, 277 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 24218 times:
I guess no one saw this coming.
This morning at a press conference in Athens, Akbar Al Baker announced the launch of daily non-stop flights between Athens and New York in the second half of 2013. According to the Greek press, the flights will be operated with 787 or A380 aircraft.
The articles don't specify if the flights will originate in DOH and if they will be to JFK or EWR, although JFK seems more likely given QR already flies there.
g500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 751 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 24228 times:
These Gulf carriers are beating up the European and now the U.S airlines with their mega hubs in the desert, now they're going to do it on their turf.
I'm not sure if Delta still flies the route, I think they dropped it. But who would you rather fly, Delta, old aging 767 with so so service, or Qatar in a brand new 787 and superior service? Tough decision
JU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 2, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 24115 times:
This is beyond amazing, however I know a few airlines that won't be happy at all if these flights materialize. I wonder if they might team up with Aegean to get some additional traffic from places like Cyprus and the Middle East.
By the way, can Athens even handle an A380? Last time I checked they couldn't.
migair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1280 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 23682 times:
Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 5): Let's be realistic, starting with a 788 makes more sense!
more sense and logic, I don´t Qatar Airways is going to use the flagship of the fleet in a place that is not Doha... that´s not logic, i´m sure they will use to and from Doha non stop to NYC maybe but not via ATH.
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 4): Reminds me of EK operating DXB-HAM-JFK but which no longer exists.
ATH-NYC is much bigger market and higher yields, despite the crisis i´m sure they can do a nice revenue.
TC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 347 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 23661 times:
Clever move, and perhaps a sign of what's to come. The big 3 ME airlines routing long-haul via an underserved intermediate European point. In addition to their direct non-stop services. Wouldn't be surprised if in future they route some US services via regional points in the UK for example. If agreements allow....
CXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 2755 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 23475 times:
Quoting TC957 (Reply 7): Clever move, and perhaps a sign of what's to come. The big 3 ME airlines routing long-haul via an underserved intermediate European point. In addition to their direct non-stop services. Wouldn't be surprised if in future they route some US services via regional points in the UK for example. If agreements allow....
I wouldn't be all too surprised either, if they are allowed.
They've taken over a lot of markets, but Europe-North America they will never take via the middle east. If they keep DOH-North America, and extend DOH-Europe to America (ie DOH-MAN-JFK), they cover all markets, US-Arabia (plus connections), EUR-Arabia (plus connections) and the more local EUR-US.
But, don't think European or American airlines would be too happy, and I only think a handful of underserved city pairs would get the green light.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10885 posts, RR: 100 Reply 9, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 23425 times:
Is AAB drunk?!? Seriously, if he had said 'operated with the 787 or 777' I wouldn't have noticed and we could have debated which is the better gauge. But the alternative being the A380? That was said for press coverage and nothing else.
Quoting JU068 (Reply 3): can Athens even handle an A380?
Search Google for "athens airport A380." You will find that EK and AF have already done 'stunt flights' there and it is an approved diversion airport for the A380. A gate is cheap and quick.
Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 5): 787 or A380, bit of a capacity gap here!
babybus From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3537 posts, RR: 6 Reply 10, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 23157 times:
Quoting g500 (Reply 1): But who would you rather fly, Delta, old aging 767 with so so service, or Qatar in a brand new 787 and superior service?
I'm not sure passengers would notice any difference.
Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 5): Let's be realistic, starting with a 788 makes more sense!
They will need something to do with those aircraft, but I think Greece would be better off with a low-cost carrier operating that route. Qatar Airways are good but they are also very expensive to fly with. I'm not sure the Greeks can afford that luxury these days.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
mozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2035 posts, RR: 14 Reply 13, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 22532 times:
Quoting swallow (Reply 8):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 4):
Reminds me of EK operating DXB-HAM-JFK.
Similar routings are:
SQ: SIN-FRA-JFK, and
NZ: AUK-LAX-LHR
But there is an important difference: Qatar flies between Athens and New York only because it is interested in the Athens-New York market. SQ and NZ have to stop in FRA and LAX respectively because the planes need to make a technical stop.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10): But the alternative being the A380? That was said for press coverage and nothing else.
I sometimes get the feeling that AAB is the Michael O'Leary of high end airlines.
Quoting babybus (Reply 11): I'm not sure passengers would notice any difference.
Since your post doesn´t sound like sarcasm I simply assume that you have not yourself flown both airlines to be in a position to compare. Especially upfront the difference is huge. Think difference between a 1988 Oldsmobile and a 2012 BMW.
Quoting babybus (Reply 11): Qatar Airways are good but they are also very expensive to fly with. I'm not sure the Greeks can afford that luxury these days.
Again, check your facts. In most markets QR is actually among the lowest priced carriers. Most of their markets are longhaul markets, so there is no competition from LCCs. There is some competition from LCCs in some of the regional markets in the Gulf region, and there indeed QR is relatively expensive
blueshamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2533 posts, RR: 24 Reply 14, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 21965 times:
Quoting babybus (Reply 11): Qatar Airways are good but they are also very expensive to fly with.
And there was me reading only in another thread on here that QR's fares are so cheap because the company has no need to turn a profit.
I have to say, QR has, in my opinion, the most bang for your buck than any other airline, especially J class. In these tough economic times, I go where I feel I'm getting the best value for money.
How you can call them expensive is beyond me.
Rgds
[disclaimer: 19 long haul return trips with them, so might be accused of fanboyism]
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21290 posts, RR: 19 Reply 15, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 21847 times:
Quoting mozart (Reply 14): Qatar flies between Athens and New York only because it is interested in the Athens-New York market.
Well, yes and no. They are apparently also interested in DOH-ATH, and whatever NYC-DOH traffic they can get. I don't know the structure of the QR hub at DOH to know how valuable a mid-day arrival would be as opposed to the current 1835 local, but it would seem to give QR some scheduling flexibility given that JFK-ATH will almost certainly leave quite a bit before JFK-DOH leaves (2220 local).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
United787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2352 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 21587 times:
I am assuming that QR has 7th freedom rights for this route? How did that happen? Forgive my ignorance on this.
Quoting mozart (Reply 13): SQ and NZ have to stop in FRA and LAX respectively because the planes need to make a technical stop.
Don't they have 5th freedom? I am pretty sure SQ does on the FRA-JFK segment as a friend had taken it in the past IIRC. Regardless, I agree that teh stopover may be a necessity (esp for the SIN-JFK route, as SIN-EWR is the longest commercial flight IIRC)
swallow From Uganda, joined Jul 2007, 545 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 21063 times:
It seems to me that QR is taking advantage of the vacuum left by the demise of OA to offer flights to NYC.
AAB has seen a gap in the market and is going for it.
He must have somehow obtained the rights, or QR wouldn't be announcing these flights.
If you underestimate the power of Qatari $$$, just ask Cargolux. Unfortunately, they found out the hard way that AAB is not the easiest of investors to deal with
3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 20839 times:
Middle East carriers flying Europe-North America might become a new phenomenon. The recession is taking a big hit on many European airlines. As these airlines start making cut backs on routes it leaves the door open for ME carriers. Might we see a few Gulf - North/South America via Spain?
The EU - US is an open-skies market if I'm correct, can any airline (i.e. non EU or US) fly and carry pax between two points in the EU and US
SXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2041 posts, RR: 19 Reply 20, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 20628 times:
Quoting g500 (Reply 1): But who would you rather fly, Delta, old aging 767 with so so service, or Qatar in a brand new 787 and superior service?
People always tend to gravitate towards what ever airfare is the cheapest, A/C type and appearance mean nothing to them. Back in the 1990's I've heard OA's 742s were old and tatty inside, same with TW, didn't stop anyone from flying them. Like everything else in the world it all boils down to the $$$$
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
BasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1266 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 20513 times:
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 20): Middle East carriers flying Europe-North America might become a new phenomenon.
Not completely new, KU is operating KWI-LHR-JFK for ages now and they also operated KWI-AMS-ORD until a few years ago, with full fifth freedom rights on both routes.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
mitris From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 24 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 20034 times:
Quoting SXDFC (Reply 21): People always tend to gravitate towards what ever airfare is the cheapest, A/C type and appearance mean nothing to them. Back in the 1990's I've heard OA's 742s were old and tatty inside, same with TW, didn't stop anyone from flying them. Like everything else in the world it all boils down to the $$$$
Emmm.... Then Olympic introduced their brand new A340s, and after TWA stopped flying to ATH, Delta's 767s were fairly new as well.
As of now, DL will only be flying non-stop to JFK during the summer. Qatar, however, will be flying all year long with their brand new 787s and A380s. And yes, ATH can handle the super jumbo.
Finally, I would rather pay a little more (if that's the case), and fly with a better airline that offers better service, and brand new fleet like QR.
usflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1809 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 20419 times:
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 20): The EU - US is an open-skies market if I'm correct, can any airline (i.e. non EU or US) fly and carry pax between two points in the EU and US
No. US and EU carriers can fly any route between the EU and the US. For fifth freedom rights, it is dependent upon the bilateral agreements between the US, EU state, and the carrier's home country.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15813 posts, RR: 50 Reply 25, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 20471 times:
Sounds like Al shooting his mouth off again...but ok, let's pretend this is real and a good idea
Quoting migair54 (Reply 5):
ATH-NYC is much bigger market and higher yields, despite the crisis i´m sure they can do a nice revenue.
Negative...they're probably about the same, although HAMNYC is much shorter, for roughly the same fare
Quoting mitris (Reply 24): Qatar, however, will be flying all year long with their brand new 787s and A380s. And yes, Athens can handle the super jumbo.
...with no feed on either end, in a highly seasonal market. Whatever happened to GVAJFK on QR?
jfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2706 posts, RR: 5 Reply 26, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 20666 times:
Delta made the route seasonal. Imo they brought this on themselves.
migair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1280 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 20723 times:
We sometimes forgot that many people don´t know about in flight service, in flight entertainment and planes, but obviously after a few months of operation the voice will be spread in Greece and people will start knowing about Qatar Airways and the advantages, but obviously the biggest one will be offering non stop to JFK.
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 20): The EU - US is an open-skies market if I'm correct, can any airline (i.e. non EU or US) fly and carry pax between two points in the EU and US
No, that´s why they need to get the 5th freedom rights. Same example SQ SIN-BCN-GRU.
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 20): Might we see a few Gulf - North/South America via Spain?
Yes, we will see, I think QR plans to operate flights to Latin America from MAD or BCN, and now they will be in OneWorld so they can use the IB network to fill some seats as well, maybe we can see any route of the ones IB plans to cut being transfer to QR and operate with B787 or B777.
gilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2903 posts, RR: 1 Reply 28, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 20496 times:
Does America and Europe have an open skies policy with the likes of Qatar and UAE to fly these sort of routes, which are not from their home countries?
I thought the OpenSkies agreement was only for European and US airlines to fly any routes they like between Europe and the USA.
N62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3755 posts, RR: 4 Reply 29, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 20377 times:
Quoting OlympicATH (Thread starter): The articles don't specify if the flights will originate in DOH and if they will be to JFK or EWR, although JFK seems more likely given QR already flies there.
JFK seems more likely because:
1) QR will be in OneWorld and EWR is not the OneWorld Airport, it's StarAlliance
and
2) It is highly unlikely any airline that isn't UA would begin new service to EWR.
RyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 2674 posts, RR: 2 Reply 32, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19853 times:
Quoting TC957 (Reply 6): Wouldn't be surprised if in future they route some US services via regional points in the UK for example
In 2006 I predicted that EK might launch DXB-MAN-BOS with a 332. Clearly that never happened, and once EK cut HAM-JFK I figured that we would never see anything like it.
One thing we have to remember is that the MidEast carriers have built up pretty significant frequent flyer bases on both sides of the pond. Linking the two would help them to retain those HVCs, and attract new ones who might be attracted to EK/QR/EY when they go to BOM, but decide to stick with UA/LH or BA since they get FF benefits when they head to Europe.
Note I am not actually insinuating that what I am about to say will actually happen, BUT EK flying a few flights a day from JFK to LHR and FRA could help them drive greater premium demand on their existing routes given the greater appeal to corporate types. If it was possible, it could prove to be a smart strategy to build loyalty and attract high value fares.
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 29): Does America and Europe have an open skies policy with the likes of Qatar and UAE to fly these sort
Well the UAE and USA has open skies, can't say for Qatar but I'm leaning towards saying no. As for the intermediate points, it would depend on the bilateral of that specific country whether they get 5th freedom or not.
This is more to do with the fact that no Aus/NZ-LHR flight makes money. The route is simply too long, and relatively low yielding.
There is a reason that QF and NZ love the USA so much: at least from Australia the fares are the same to LAX as LHR, yet the flight is significantly shorter.
3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 33, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19574 times:
Quoting mayor (Reply 23): Not completely new, KU is operating KWI-LHR-JFK for ages now and they also operated KWI-AMS-ORD until a few years ago, with full fifth freedom rights on both routes.
OK I think you have to put these routes in context vs. the ATH-JFK route. If I'm not mistaken these routes were left over from the days when few planes had the legs to fly Middle East - US non stop. I doubt that KU started the EU-US legs for that specific market, I don't see how an airline of their standing can look to compete with the likes of BA, KLM etc.
QR on the other hand has started the route because they want a share of the ATH-JFK market. QR could easily fly direct DOH-JFK, they already do! They're not rerouting via ATH for fuel, its for the market, the pax. This is the big headline here, when has such a thing happened in the recent past?
All the other examples given here are really those of airlines stopping because they really couldn't fly much further. And as aircraft ranges increased in the 90s and 2000s we've seen a lot of these routes being scrapped, the only one's that remain are those that are still impossible to fly direct. Example is AI's LHR-JFK leg, that had been going on for years and years, and in fact it was a quite well known entity on the route, once the 777LR were purchased it was ceased.
This move is especially striking because of the condition of the Greek economy (and others like it). One can really see QR succeeding and doing very well. There's little to no competition, apart from Delta, and even then I can guarantee that they cannot compete with QRs product. Not in the short term. It'll be interesting to see if this is just a one off thing or if we start to see the ME carriers flying similar routes in the near future.
polaris From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1123 posts, RR: 1 Reply 34, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19346 times:
If this route is allowed under the bilateral/multilateral air agreements among these countries, then there is no question that this route is possible. The agreements might allow stops en route to the US. The stops might allow fifth freedom rights. However, it is unlikely that the flight will originate in Athens. It would be a Doha - Athens - New York route.
klwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 1808 posts, RR: 3 Reply 35, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19365 times:
Well, this is a shocker. I mean honestly here, if UA is not serving ATH from EWR/IAD, and DL is only going from JFK seasonally, this market must be pretty weak. No US carrier at all year round to Greece, almost unbelievable in my humble opinion.
I have lived in the middle east for 3 years (Saudi and UAE). In my travels to the USA, QR is NEVER EVER the cheapest, and I have never flown them.
redzeppelin From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 36, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19129 times:
What factors are generally considered by US and EU regulators in the decision to grant 5th freedom rights, and how often are applications approved versus denied? Is it a completely arbitrary process? Are some governments more or less likely than others to approve or deny applications? Is there a good analysis of this anywhere that I can read? If the ME carriers suddenly decide that they want to launch a bunch of EUR-USA/Canada routes, will anybody stand in their way? I'm sure that governments are lobbied on one side to protect the interest of their own airlines, while also being pressured to protect the interests of consumers who would be served by the flight in question. I'd be interested to hear more about this from anybody with knowledge of the subject.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15813 posts, RR: 50 Reply 37, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19093 times:
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 27): Delta made the route seasonal. Imo they brought this on themselves.
I think the general downturn in the market brought it on DL, not the other way around. QR doesn't stand a chance in ATHNYC; maybe April Fools comes early in Qatar?
mhkansan From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 395 posts, RR: 1 Reply 38, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18746 times:
Where are QR's gates at JFK? Are they at T8 and or do they plan to relocate there? Can T8 handle the 380? I wonder if they would try any Spanish routing DOH-BCN-DFW.
ANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3240 posts, RR: 14 Reply 39, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18685 times:
QR tried DOH-GVA-EWR a few years back and it didn't last very long. My sister took the flight EWR-GVA-EWR and loved it but if the high-yield GVA-NYC market couldn't support it, why does QR think ATH-JFK can support it when it seems to have been doing just fine for the last 18 months with no non-stop connections?
TIS
www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
No, I doubt that governments in the EU will be throwing 5th Freedom rights around like confetti but I think that Greece is a special case owing to the situation the nation currently finds itself in. Their local carrier has no long haul aircraft (correct me if I'm wrong), and are not flying to JFK. In addition they are not likely to buy wide-bodies any time soon or to start JFK services. Also, its a boost to the economy to maintain these routes. I don't see many NW European countries giving Qatar 5th freedom rights any time soon.
If I'm not mistaken 9W has similar rights to fly pax from BRU to YYZ, JFK, EWR, BOM, DEL, MAA. But again I think this deal was signed at the time that Sabena had gone bankrupt and BRU found that the agreement would be in its favour.
SCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 469 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18027 times:
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 34): QR on the other hand has started the route because they want a share of the ATH-JFK market. QR could easily fly direct DOH-JFK, they already do! They're not rerouting via ATH for fuel, its for the market, the pax. This is the big headline here, when has such a thing happened in the recent past?
For Doha originating/connecting customers, they will target the more conscious-money passenger with the stop-over (willing to fly XXX-DOH-ATH-JFK), while they still may fly their higher-paying customers direct (DOH-JFK). And they get the only direct service Greece-US. It makes a lot of sense, if I am not wrong EK does (or did) the same with DXB-BKK-HKG and DXB-HKG direct flights, you can fly to Hong Kong from Dubai direct or doing a stop-over in Bangkok, all in EK metal.
True, also not having anymore direct service to the US from Greece might be seen as (almost) a state issue.
Somehow not that different from what happened in BCN, where the regional government pushed for SQ's 5th freedom rights to GRU, so BCN has now a direct service to Brazil, and there is no need to fly via MAD anymore.
as739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5834 posts, RR: 23 Reply 42, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17910 times:
Quoting swallow (Reply 7):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 4):
Reminds me of EK operating DXB-HAM-JFK.
Similar routings are:
SQ: SIN-FRA-JFK, and
NZ: AUK-LAX-LHR
Lets me honest. Those routes fly thru Alliance hubs. Athens is by no means in the same ballpark with FRA or LAX. not have the financial benefits of these cities.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3448 posts, RR: 5 Reply 43, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17905 times:
Weird news indeed. I cannot yet tell if this will fail or be successful. There is a lot of traffic between Greece and the US which is now being solely fed to the European majors. They can be better at handling that since they can direct the traffic to multiple destinations within the US while QR will only have NY to play with. Only time will tell.
Quoting babybus (Reply 10): They will need something to do with those aircraft, but I think Greece would be better off with a low-cost carrier operating that route. Qatar Airways are good but they are also very expensive to fly with. I'm not sure the Greeks can afford that luxury these days.
Qatar is not that bad price-wise and considering that fares to the US from Greece have skyrocketed since OA and DL pulled out, they can easily attract customers if the price is reasonable. As for who can afford such service, I am glad to report that even if things are bad for a large part of the Greek population, there are people who still have jobs, lodging and an income in the country. And then you have those who have moved all their money to your country's capital to avoid the taxman, who still need their Xmas/Shopping trip to NY every now and then.
AA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 365 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17746 times:
Just to put the argument to rest here a bit, I did a fare comparison on a JFK-SIN return on several airlines for 16JAN-21JAN. Here's how several carriers stacked up.
UA LGA-ORD-SIN $1080.00
DL JFK-NRT-SIN $1160.00
AA/JL JFK-NRT-SIN $1180.00
EK JFK-DXB-SIN $1360.00
QR JFK-DOH-SIN $1440.00
CX JFK-HKG-SIN $1560.00
SQ JFK-FRA-SIN $1560.00
So while this isn't a scientific study by any means, and it may not apply to all routes that QR flies, I'd say that it would appear that QR charges a bit of a premium. Personally, I would pay it, but some might not want to.
Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 17): Don't they have 5th freedom? I am pretty sure SQ does on the FRA-JFK segment as a friend had taken it in the past IIRC. Regardless, I agree that teh stopover may be a necessity (esp for the SIN-JFK route, as SIN-EWR is the longest commercial flight IIRC)
You are correct. Having a tech stop in FRA is necessary on the JFK-SIN route, but they also have 5th freedom rights, and SQ has turned it into an opportunity to pick up traffic on the JFK-FRA route.
Quoting mhkansan (Reply 39): Where are QR's gates at JFK? Are they at T8 and or do they plan to relocate there? Can T8 handle the 380? I wonder if they would try any Spanish routing DOH-BCN-DFW.
They are at T8 currently. I'm not sure if T8 can handle the A380, but it's a good question to ask.
Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
QR will need to use their limited A380 fleet on high-traffic routes to/from their DOH hub. Only way I could see an A380 on this flight is if ATH were just an en-route stop.
United_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7176 posts, RR: 8 Reply 46, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17513 times:
No word on Hellenic Imperial Airways? wikipedia says they suspended long haul waiting for thier A340-300's.
'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
jfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2706 posts, RR: 5 Reply 47, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17509 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38): I think the general downturn in the market brought it on DL, not the other way around. QR doesn't stand a chance in ATHNYC; maybe April Fools comes early in Qatar?
Are you aware of the Greek population in NYC?
This route went from being flown by Tower, TWA, Delta and Olympic to just DL and Olympic, to just DL and UA (out of EWR) seasonally.
Downturns aside, there is a huge population on the NY side of the river that wants a non stop connection to the homeland. Low yielding? Yes.
High Demand? Absolutely
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15813 posts, RR: 50 Reply 48, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17348 times:
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 48): This route went from being flown by Tower, TWA, Delta and Olympic to just DL and Olympic, to just DL and UA (out of EWR) seasonally.
And where are they all now?
Quoting lewis (Reply 44): that fares to the US from Greece have skyrocketed since OA and DL pulled out,
What's a reasonable NYCATH fare to you?
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 41): If I'm not mistaken 9W has similar rights to fly pax from BRU to YYZ, JFK, EWR, BOM, DEL, MAA.
Also mostly terrible, and they had a partner in SN.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 49, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17115 times:
Quoting United787 (Reply 16): I am assuming that QR has 7th freedom rights for this route? How did that happen? Forgive my ignorance on this.
5th freedom, not 7th freedom. They certainly have 5th freedom rights from the U.S. since U.S.-Qatar is an open skies market. I don't know anything about the Qatar-Greece bilateral but they wouldn't announce the route unless they that bilateral also includes 5th freedom rights.
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 40): QR tried DOH-GVA-EWR a few years back and it didn't last very long.
If memory correct the only reason QR operated the A332 via GVA at the time was because they didn't have enough aircraft to operate nonstop then. It was only a stopgap, not intended to be permanent.
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3448 posts, RR: 5 Reply 50, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17031 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 50): I don't know anything about the Qatar-Greece bilateral but they wouldn't announce the route unless they that bilateral also includes 5th freedom rights.
The way the Greek government has been trying to attract foreign investment from Qatar and other gulf states, I doubt this will be a problem for them.
Not sure since I fly to ATH from LAX where the fares are even worse. But, from all the folks I know who have been living in NY for the last decade and have been flying the route frequently, this is what I have been hearing. I would consider a reasonable, off-season return fare around $1K and below but even that is hard to find these days. Direct flight not a chance, maybe if you add 1-2 stops in between.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 25118 posts, RR: 60 Reply 52, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 16573 times:
Great news for the Greek market and as stated plenty of well off Greeks who will pay for the premium cabins. It's been a long time coming for a product such as QRs and it is a very welcome boost to AIA. Good time for launching too. With QR joining OW it will also boost the OW presence at ATH which has thus far been Star dominated.
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
Carmelo From Hungary, joined Sep 2005, 121 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 16333 times:
Quoting United_fan (Reply 47): No word on Hellenic Imperial Airways? wikipedia says they suspended long haul waiting for thier A340-300's.
They don't own the A340's any longer...I assume they are going into service with SkyGreece Airlines which are about to start flights to North America from LGAV
Just out of curiosity I checked JFK-ATH for February (granted it is low season) and there are quite a few combinations starting from $822 (with Turkish and Swiss) and for less than $900. I don't think that is expensive. Also US-ATH is one of the longest flights to Europe (JFK-ATH is almost 30% longer than JFK-LHR, that is 2,600 nm more in a return flight), so prices should be higher than London or most Western European cities.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 55, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 16099 times:
Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 55): JFK-ATH is almost 30% longer than JFK-LHR, that is 2,600 nm more in a return flight), so prices should be higher than London or most Western European cities.
That may seem logical but airline pricing doesn't work that way. It's based on demand and the nature of the market. You will very often find that transatlantic fares to markets like LHR and FRA are significantly higher than to points like ATH. Distance doesn't play much of a role.
redzeppelin From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 295 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 16038 times:
Can we expect AA to code-share on this and provide connecting feed at JFK?
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15813 posts, RR: 50 Reply 57, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 16005 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 52):
If I am not mistaken, ATH-JFK was the most (and maybe the only) profitable long haul route for OA.
They also had a lot of feed on the ATH end, assuming it was indeed profitable which I'm not sure it was
Quoting lewis (Reply 52): I would consider a reasonable, off-season return fare around $1K and below but even that is hard to find these days.
Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 55): Just out of curiosity I checked JFK-ATH for February (granted it is low season) and there are quite a few combinations starting from $822 (with Turkish and Swiss) and for less than $900. I don't think that is expensive
It'd have to probably be at least $600 each way on average to begin to work
The only reasonable fares at the moment between US and Greece are on TK and those disappear pretty fast (at least from my experience out of LAX). There are good prices out there until you notice that some of the flights under the fare have overnight connections or bad connections in general. Yes, if you are too price conscious then you shouldn't care but if QR - with 787s that are supposed to be fuel efficient - can offer a reasonable Y fare for a direct flight, people will take it.
SXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2041 posts, RR: 19 Reply 60, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 15438 times:
Quoting mitris (Reply 24): Emmm.... Then Olympic introduced their brand new A340s
Look at my username, I am pretty sure I was aware of that! AFAIK the A340s came online in late 1999, early 2000 which is why I said the 90's. I should have emphizied on the early- mid 1990's.
From what I remember DL has been sending the A333/ 764 to ATH for the last few years.. Those products seem to be on par with with Qatar, if they do indeed use the 787 for this route.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
I know that airline pricing is not solely based on the distance (which is one factor), but $800-900 ai return for a transatlantic flight in February ($822 is €634 at current rate) is just slightly higher to your average flight in the same dates for the likes of London or Paris (which probably are starting at $700-$800)... $100 return more for a considerably longer flight is not outrageous. Not every other transatlantic fare is a £249 BA sale LHR-JFK.
spiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1 Reply 62, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14447 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 44): QR will only have NY to play with
Not quite, tey are going to be in OW, so they will (hopefully, by then) have AA codeshares.
Quoting SXDFC (Reply 61): From what I remember DL has been sending the A333/ 764 to ATH for the last few years
The route has been an a333 for the last few years, but this summer it was changed to a 763.
I'm still a bit confused on something about this. Is the aircraft going to be routed DOH-ATH-JFK or is it going to do what EI did with the IAD-MAD flights (operate the route for a few weeks and then position to BOS and go to DUB)?
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6953 posts, RR: 7 Reply 63, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13924 times:
Quoting mozart (Reply 13):
But there is an important difference: Qatar flies between Athens and New York only because it is interested in the Athens-New York market. SQ and NZ have to stop in FRA and LAX respectively because the planes need to make a technical stop.
Not exactly. Taking advantage of 5th freedom markets is a very significant component of SQ's business model. The JFK-SIN market is pretty small. So is the SIN-GRU market, or the SIN-IAH market, or past 5th freedom destinations such as LAS, ORD, and YVR. They don't stop in FRA simply to refuel. They do it because FRA-JFK is the most profitable TATL market for them.
WROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 832 posts, RR: 0 Reply 64, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13388 times:
I am surprised that EU would allow QR to serve Europe-US route. Anyways, ORD-ATH is still for grabs. Not sure why AA or UA never went after that market?
Tupolev160 From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 361 posts, RR: 1 Reply 65, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13394 times:
QR is expensive to fly with around the Gulf. However the further you fly with them, the more reasonable it gets. This might be the route-news of the year.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 66, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13249 times:
Quoting United_fan (Reply 47): No word on Hellenic Imperial Airways? wikipedia says they suspended long haul waiting for thier A340-300's.
I'll give you the word, two GF A340-300s were sent to a paint shop in Europe, painted in Hellenic Imperial colours and were then promptly flown straight back to BAH and continued to fly for GF. Something went wrong with the deal. But it was quite interesting to drive by the airport and see a Hellenic Imperial Airways aircraft parked on stand. Later on GF painted the entire aircraft white with the falcon on the tail, this aircraft (or two) is now parked at BAH airport waiting for a buyer.
avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4094 posts, RR: 18 Reply 67, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12188 times:
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 20): Middle East carriers flying Europe-North America might become a new phenomenon.
It won't. Greece MAY prove to be an exceptional case because it lacks a home-country airline to sustain service to the USA, but that's about it -- the immunized alliances ain't pushovers, and if MidEast carriers proved to be too threatening to USA-Europe travel, I'd expect the USA and EU to place appropriate limitations on Mideast carrier flying to protect US and EU aviation interests.
JU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 68, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11531 times:
I am sure they would start cooperating with American Airlines even before their entry into oneworld (if necessary). Let us not forget that there are millions of Greeks living in both the United States and Canada. Through New York they can offer decent connections to anywhere in the Americas.
Also, who knows what might happen down the road. If this adventure proves to be successful, which I am sure it will, then we might see the airline introduce new routes such as Athens-Chicago or Athens-Toronto.
I wonder if the European Union blocks the merger of Aegean and Olympic, if the latter might offer a deal to Qatar? Either to purchase it or to offer it regional feed.
3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 69, posted (6 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10088 times:
Are any of the greek airlines part of oneworld? Perhaps if they were to join and codeshare with QR, we may see QR flying a few more routes out of ATH.
Question of the legal implication, does QR still get slots in the US based on the Qatar-US bilateral agreements or do they piggyback on Greece/EU-US bilaterals. What I'm trying to imply is could stopovers in Europe be used by ME carriers to gain more slots into the US or Canada?
dcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 70, posted (6 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8864 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 70): I am sure they would start cooperating with American Airlines even before their entry into oneworld (if necessary).
I get the feeling that there had to be some cooperation with AA behind the scenes before this was announced, and perhaps discussion with other OW carriers also.
klwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 1808 posts, RR: 3 Reply 72, posted (6 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8297 times:
Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 66): QR is expensive to fly with around the Gulf. However the further you fly with them, the more reasonable it gets. This might be the route-news of the year.
I disagree. In all my trips to the USA from the Gulf, and that's about 10, QR is never competitive. Emirates and Etihad are more competitive without a doubt.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15813 posts, RR: 50 Reply 73, posted (6 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8188 times:
Quoting avek00 (Reply 69): if MidEast carriers proved to be too threatening to USA-Europe travel, I'd expect the USA and EU to place appropriate limitations on Mideast carrier flying to protect US and EU aviation interests.
I don't think the GCC carriers would stand a chance outside of their niche, which is major flow hubs in the MIddle East. None of them will be making point to point flights work any time soon, certainly not on their own.
Tupolev160 From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 361 posts, RR: 1 Reply 74, posted (6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8079 times:
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 74): I disagree. In all my trips to the USA from the Gulf, and that's about 10, QR is never competitive. Emirates and Etihad are more competitive without a doubt.
Before disagreeing you should read better what is written and make use of some intuitive logic. I said that QR is expensive for any flights that take origin or end in the Gulf area, that's what i meant by "around the Gulf". Be creative, hope your government doesn't forbids you that as well.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6953 posts, RR: 7 Reply 75, posted (6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8061 times:
Quoting WROORD (Reply 65): I am surprised that EU would allow QR to serve Europe-US route. Anyways, ORD-ATH is still for grabs. Not sure why AA or UA never went after that market?
Why? The EU is a pretty liberal air market. There are other such examples and there have been even more in the past.
SQ and AI are notorious for having a stop in Europe on their flights to the US. Now SQ even has BCN-GRU along with FRA-JFK.
Quoting avek00 (Reply 69): It won't. Greece MAY prove to be an exceptional case because it lacks a home-country airline to sustain service to the USA, but that's about it
Nonesense. Airlines have been doing this since the dawn of commercial aviation. FRA, LHR, and AMS have been stopping points on routes between the Americas and Asia for decades, by taking advantage of 5th freedom rights to maximixe routes that would not be viable if flown non-stop. Heck, DL even has a hub in AMS used to feed passengers to their AMS-BOM flight.
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9273 posts, RR: 13 Reply 76, posted (6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8036 times:
Quoting airbazar (Reply 77): Nonesense. Airlines have been doing this since the dawn of commercial aviation. FRA, LHR, and AMS have been stopping points on routes between the Americas and Asia for decades, by taking advantage of 5th freedom rights to maximixe routes that would not be viable if flown non-stop. Heck, DL even has a hub in AMS used to feed passengers to their AMS-BOM flight.
You don't suppose that it was range restrictions at "the dawn of commerical aviation" that might have had something to do with it, do you?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15813 posts, RR: 50 Reply 77, posted (6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7990 times:
Quoting airbazar (Reply 77): Airlines have been doing this since the dawn of commercial aviation. FRA, LHR, and AMS have been stopping points on routes between the Americas and Asia for decades,
Less and less and less...mostly because it's terrible, and planes can now fly nonstop
Quoting mayor (Reply 78): You don't suppose that it was range restrictions at "the dawn of commerical aviation" that might have had something to do with it, do you?
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6953 posts, RR: 7 Reply 79, posted (6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7686 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 78): Less and less and less...mostly because it's terrible, and planes can now fly nonstop
Indeed, but that's doesn't rule out the fact that it has een done for many years and people shouldn't be shocked when the EU allows it to continue. That is why there are open skies agreements.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 80, posted (6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7657 times:
Quoting mayor (Reply 77): Quoting airbazar (Reply 77):
Nonesense. Airlines have been doing this since the dawn of commercial aviation. FRA, LHR, and AMS have been stopping points on routes between the Americas and Asia for decades, by taking advantage of 5th freedom rights to maximixe routes that would not be viable if flown non-stop. Heck, DL even has a hub in AMS used to feed passengers to their AMS-BOM flight.
You don't suppose that it was range restrictions at "the dawn of commerical aviation" that might have had something to do with it, do you?
That was only part of it. Very few people wanted to (or could afford to) fly to points half way around the world in those days. They needed multiple stops to fill the flights, and even with the stops they often half empty or worse on many sectors..
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 81, posted (6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7613 times:
Quoting airbazar (Reply 76): Quoting WROORD (Reply 65):
I am surprised that EU would allow QR to serve Europe-US route. Anyways, ORD-ATH is still for grabs. Not sure why AA or UA never went after that market?
Why? The EU is a pretty liberal air market. There are other such examples and there have been even more in the past.
SQ and AI are notorious for having a stop in Europe on their flights to the US. Now SQ even has BCN-GRU along with FRA-JFK.
SIN-U.S. is too far for economic nonstop operations, which is why they're dropping their all-J class A345 service SIN-EWR and SIN-LAX sometime next year.
Re AI, aren't all their U.S.-India flights now nonstop? I think so.
spiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1 Reply 82, posted (6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7592 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 82): Re AI, aren't all their U.S.-India flights now nonstop? I think so.
Yes they are. Over the summer the ORD flights stopped at FRA, and the JFK flights stopped at CDG because of the strike. The EWR services were also suspended for some time over the summer, but have since resumed.
kaneporta1 From Greece, joined May 2005, 721 posts, RR: 11 Reply 84, posted (6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7135 times:
Good luck to them but unless they manage to offer connection options beyond JFK and ATH I don't see this route lasting for more than a couple of years.
It will probably be easier to do at JFK with AA, but at ATH it will be a challenge considering A3 (including OA) is part of Star and there aren't many other airlines that would feed traffic to QR.
I also believe that this route will never see the A380 especially since this is supposedly a daily flight. If I'm not mistaken, none of the airlines that served the ATH-NYC route in the recent years had daily flights yet their aircraft were of a similar capacity to QR's 787s.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9273 posts, RR: 13 Reply 85, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6859 times:
Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 85): If I'm not mistaken, none of the airlines that served the ATH-NYC route in the recent years had daily flights yet their aircraft were of a similar capacity to QR's 787s.
Unless I'm mistaken, DL's JFK-ATH flight was daily until recently.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
spiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1 Reply 86, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6325 times:
Quoting mayor (Reply 86): Unless I'm mistaken, DL's JFK-ATH flight was daily until recently
No, you are correct. The flights were daily until this summer, when hey were lessend to 5x weekly I believe.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2483 posts, RR: 0 Reply 87, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6261 times:
Seems really outside the box but this might actually be a good opportunity. I think this is a smart route to try.
panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4595 posts, RR: 25 Reply 88, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6245 times:
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 87): The flights were daily until this summer, when hey were lessend to 5x weekly I believe.
No, Delta has been operating JFK-ATH daily for many summers now, including the last one. In winter it usually went 4x-5x weekly. This is the first winter where it will not be operating. For the last few summers. they have been using the 298-seat A330-300 on the route, and winter has seen the 763ER.
People can criticize Delta all they want about making this route seasonal this year, but the fact is that no one can fly JFK-ATH profitably during the winter with the current economic conditions. Transatlantic traffic falls off a cliff in the winter in general (except for some sporadic holiday periods); US-originating travel is concentrated mostly in the spring/summer, so airlines depend a lot on Europe-originating traffic during the fall and winter. While US-originating travel to Europe is still going decently strong (hence Delta is able to put the A333 on JFK-ATH even this year), European-originating travel particularly from hard-hit countries like Greece and Spain has dropped quite a bit, hence the need to further prune winter capacity this coming winter.
QR can try but I am willing to bet that they won't last more than two seasons in this market on a year-round basis.
alfa164 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 105 posts, RR: 0 Reply 89, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6183 times:
You are right: DL has had daily to almost-daily - depending on the season - for many years. The "new" OA discontuied their own ATH-JFK flight and code-shared with DL. This is the first year DL didn't suspended their flight.
Which makes me wonder... maybe OA was disappointed in losing the code-share flights over the winter, and approached (or were approached by) QR about a year-round deal? Is is possible OA will move from DL to QR for their code-shares? That could be an intersting move - and could explain why this "out-of-the-box" announcement really makes more sense.
JU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 90, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5890 times:
Quoting alfa164 (Reply 90): Which makes me wonder... maybe OA was disappointed in losing the code-share flights over the winter, and approached (or were approached by) QR about a year-round deal? Is is possible OA will move from DL to QR for their code-shares? That could be an intersting move - and could explain why this "out-of-the-box" announcement really makes more sense.
Yes but it would not make sense for Olympic to approach Qatar while they are trying to convince the European Commission to allow Aegean to buy them. It would be very risky for Qatar to invest a lot of money into Athens-New York flights only to lose their feeder a few weeks later.
Who knows, maybe they have approached Cyprus Airways which is currently expanding in Greece and are desperate for additional income.
dcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 91, posted (6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5647 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 91): Yes but it would not make sense for Olympic to approach Qatar while they are trying to convince the European Commission to allow Aegean to buy them. It would be very risky for Qatar to invest a lot of money into Athens-New York flights only to lose their feeder a few weeks later.
I tend to agree. Had they done that, it might have doomed the merger/acquisition.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 25118 posts, RR: 60 Reply 92, posted (6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5626 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 91): Yes but it would not make sense for Olympic to approach Qatar while they are trying to convince the European Commission to allow Aegean to buy them.
Very true and this QR arrival actually helps their case. Some very interesting facts and figures going around on other forums. Seems QR did their homework.
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
dcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 93, posted (6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5192 times:
Quoting OA260 (Reply 93):
Very true and this QR arrival actually helps their case. Some very interesting facts and figures going around on other forums. Seems QR did their homework.
QR seems to have a high record of getting things right. I'm not surprised at what I've seen elsewhere!
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 25 Reply 94, posted (6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5141 times:
Quoting OA260 (Reply 93): Very true and this QR arrival actually helps their case. Some very interesting facts and figures going around on other forums. Seems QR did their homework.
I'd be interested to read those forums. Do you mind mentioning them or sending me a PM with the info?
Byrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 1 Reply 95, posted (6 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5058 times:
Why does the EU give the ME airlines rights to fly ex-Europe and doesn't the US have the right to refuse the route as well?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
FI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1059 posts, RR: 2 Reply 96, posted (6 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5012 times:
Good for them. I flew OA JFK-ATJ-JFK packed each way. There is no excuse for non-stop ATH-JFK service. Yes there are Economic issues within Greece, but the air route is very important. Let them operate it.
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 5 Reply 97, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4750 times:
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 96): Why does the EU give the ME airlines rights to fly ex-Europe and doesn't the US have the right to refuse the route as well?
Four things
1. It might not be the EU who allowed Qatar the rights here. Some bilaterals are still done by nation states where EU agreements have not been possible, or the EU hasn't got round to doing them
2. I can't speak for Greece, but the UK has long encouraged foreign airlines, including looking favourably on fifth freedom applications, for reasons including development of regional air services. BA have made a business decision not to do regional long haul, VS do limited regional long haul. So there are plenty of examples of air services that wouldn't exist, or maybe considered underserved, without foreign airlines, including those from the Middle East. If you want another fifth freedom example, Budapest-Zagreb with QR
3. Liberalisation can potentially work two ways. It also opens up new opportunities for domestic airlines abroad. If it wasn't for internal European liberalisation Easyjet for example wouldn't have been able to grow the way it has
4. The US does have a say depending on what they agreed in the US-Qatar air service agreement and US-EU open skies deal
dcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 98, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4606 times:
Quoting Humberside (Reply 98): 2. I can't speak for Greece, but the UK has long encouraged foreign airlines, including looking favourably on fifth freedom applications, for reasons including development of regional air services. BA have made a business decision not to do regional long haul, VS do limited regional long haul. So there are plenty of examples of air services that wouldn't exist, or maybe considered underserved, without foreign airlines, including those from the Middle East. If you want another fifth freedom example, Budapest-Zagreb with QR
I suspect that fifth freedom has a lot to do with this and you cite very good examples. I also wonder if QR eventually has designs on becoming a global airline of sorts.
TS-IOR From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 3306 posts, RR: 7 Reply 99, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4369 times:
QR has now 5th freedom rights out of Tunis, and reading such a piece of news makes me wonder if QR will urge to start a route to north America, most probably Montreal, and also NY, now that Tunisair has postponed JFK and YUL to 2013 ! I think opening a route is easier for QR than for TU due to equipment and also the existing offices in north America, and the already established marketing machine
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10885 posts, RR: 100 Reply 100, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4335 times:
The more I think about this route, the more sense a 787 makes. Its not a 'thick route' and with EK already doing JFK-DXB, any competition with an added stop is not going to be as competitive. (Let's face it, none of the mid-east carriers have high O&D traffic.) Since two stop connections have lower yield than one stop (usually), it won't be a
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 96): Why does the EU give the ME airlines rights to fly ex-Europe and doesn't the US have the right to refuse the route as well?
QR will have to gain the rights ex-Europe. I believe QR has already signed an agreement with the US for all the rights they require as they are on the list of nations with an 'open skies' agreement with the USA.
That means the US flagged airines can fly DOH-EUROPE-USA any way they please too.
Quoting Humberside (Reply 98): It might not be the EU who allowed Qatar the rights here. Some bilaterals are still done by nation states where EU agreements have not been possible, or the EU hasn't got round to doing them
Most of the states have refused to give bilateral negotiations over to the EU. It isn't the EU 'hasn't gotten around to doing them,' its that many states are refusing to cede to the EU Federal government what has historically been their negotiating prerogative.
Quoting Humberside (Reply 98): 4. The US does have a say depending on what they agreed in the US-Qatar air service agreement and US-EU open skies deal
Open skies generally implies "7th freedom" rights. I'm not aware of any 'open skies' the US has signed that doesn't include such rights. The one think the US will never grant is cabotage or 8th freedom.
JU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6 Reply 101, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4315 times:
So if they really do launch these flights, will that mean that they will be the first to operate a revenue flight between Europe and the U.S. on a B787?
avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4094 posts, RR: 18 Reply 102, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4193 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 101): Open skies generally implies "7th freedom" rights. I'm not aware of any 'open skies' the US has signed that doesn't include such rights.
To the contrary, 7th freedom rights are rarely granted under "open skies" Air Services Agreements as they often do not serve the economic interests of the country granting them.
avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4094 posts, RR: 18 Reply 103, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4202 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 102):
So if they really do launch these flights, will that mean that they will be the first to operate a revenue flight between Europe and the U.S. on a B787?
Nope, United -- the world's leading airline -- will have long beaten QR in that regard, as UA is set to launch various TATL 787 services in 2013.
avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4094 posts, RR: 18 Reply 104, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4168 times:
Quoting panamair (Reply 89): QR can try but I am willing to bet that they won't last more than two seasons in this market on a year-round basis.
I agree with you, and ultimately, this is why I'm not terribly concerned about the flight - history does not smile kindly upon third country carriers offering sustainable service where the carriers of the two "home" countries involved cannot maintain even a single route year-round.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10885 posts, RR: 100 Reply 106, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4014 times:
Quoting avek00 (Reply 103): To the contrary, 7th freedom rights are rarely granted under "open skies" Air Services Agreements as they often do not serve the economic interests of the country granting them.
Please provide a link as that is contrary to what we've seen with many airlines once they have open skies. AI and EK come to mind. Opening any new routes is in the US economic interest (e.g., EK's DXB-HAM-JFK). But I'd love to see a reference so I could know more. Either way, I doubt the US would block DOH-ATH-JFK. The trick will be the Greek rights.
The fact this was announced with Greek airport executives implies it might go somewhere. But I personally question if this is an attempt to have DL resume year round as a seasonal flight must be hurting the Greek economy. Maybe not much, but often aviation routes are 'hot spots' perceived impact greater than actual (my hypothesis).
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9273 posts, RR: 13 Reply 107, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3933 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 107): But I personally question if this is an attempt to have DL resume year round as a seasonal flight must be hurting the Greek economy. Maybe not much, but often aviation routes are 'hot spots' perceived impact greater than actual
I wonder if there would be enough pressure from the Greek authorities (and this flight) for DL to run the flight for another half of the year, less than full. Obviously, there was a reason that DL decided to do it seasonally and I would imagine that lack of profit might be it.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
FreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0 Reply 108, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3899 times:
Quoting WROORD (Reply 64): Anyways, ORD-ATH is still for grabs. Not sure why AA or UA never went after that market?
That's really an enigma.....this should be a "no-brainer".....for a number of reasons......
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4169 posts, RR: 1 Reply 110, posted (6 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3672 times:
Quoting JU068 (Reply 102): So if they really do launch these flights, will that mean that they will be the first to operate a revenue flight between Europe and the U.S. on a B787?
Quoting avek00 (Reply 104): Nope, United -- the world's leading airline -- will have long beaten QR in that regard, as UA is set to launch various TATL 787 services in 2013.
First revenue TATL flight will be on December 11th (from Europe December 12th) for a one time only IAH-AMS, thus UA will beat QR.
Quoting mayor (Reply 108):
I wonder if there would be enough pressure from the Greek authorities (and this flight) for DL to run the flight for another half of the year, less than full. Obviously, there was a reason that DL decided to do it seasonally and I would imagine that lack of profit might be it.
My bet is that DL will withdraw from ATH should QR start. There is no reason to fight for the ATH market for DL and I doubt ATH-JFK justifies 2 airlines. Moreover as DL doesn't run ATH-JFK for the entire S13 season (they'll start mid May till the end of S13). At present W13 is also loaded in the Skyteam timetables, but we all know that this is subject to change
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6953 posts, RR: 7 Reply 111, posted (6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3533 times:
Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 85): Good luck to them but unless they manage to offer connection options beyond JFK and ATH I don't see this route lasting for more than a couple of years.
QR is joining OW. There will be plenty of connections at JFK from AA. Think about all the passengers that now travel via Europe to get to ATH. They will now have an option that avoids connecting in Europe at a very awkward time.
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 96): Why does the EU give the ME airlines rights to fly ex-Europe and doesn't the US have the right to refuse the route as well?
It stimulates competition and economic development. What is there not to like?
avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4094 posts, RR: 18 Reply 112, posted (6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3508 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 107): Please provide a link as that is contrary to what we've seen with many airlines once they have open skies.
No, your assertion is what is contrary to what was actually taken place. Sure, carriers have leveraged fifth freedom rights under open skies, but 7th freedom grants are rarely given, and rarely used.
FreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0 Reply 113, posted (6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3459 times:
Different kind of hub feed than New York, with smaller cities and co-terminals feeding it within their respective route systems. Many people that travel to Greece are going beyond ATH anyway(either flying, driving or by ship), and one less stop, is a strong selling point. Chicago has one of the largest Greek populations.
AA and UA are very competive in the ORD market. Granted, UA gained some, with the CO merger. This could widen UA's local market share even more........or AA can certainly make a major gain in catching up. One flight can certainly make a difference in customer loyalty, on all other routes. We're looking at the "big picture", here.
Additionally....the less obvious......nearby St. Louis has no Europe service whatsoever........Chicago also has large Eastern European populations as well, but the flights to that region(as well as useful connections)have been cut down considerably the past few years......flights such as LH's ORD-MUC and OS's JFK-VIE have been selling out quicker as a result. ATH could provide a useful alternative connection point, for those going to Romania, etc. Likewise, with the absence of El-Al in ORD, ATH could be a good alternative connection point to get to TLV, too...
FreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0 Reply 114, posted (6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3438 times:
Quoting mayor (Reply 108): I wonder if there would be enough pressure from the Greek authorities (and this flight) for DL to run the flight for another half of the year, less than full. Obviously, there was a reason that DL decided to do it seasonally and I would imagine that lack of profit might be it.
Athens Airport is, incidentally, running the "winter incentive program" to have flights operate during the off-season, incidentally. It's kind of a combination of reduced facilities fees, and some kind of incentive based on how many passengers you get in the winter. But this was apparently not enough to offset any costs Delta would have operating their trip.
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6953 posts, RR: 7 Reply 115, posted (6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3438 times:
Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 114): ATH could provide a useful alternative connection point, for those going to Romania, etc.
I don't think QR is at all interested in beyond ATH connections. This is entirely geared towards using AA's hub at JFK to capture a piece of the Greek diaspora in the US, and especially in the East Coast.
Nearby??? I don't believe STL is near enough to ORD to consider driving to Chicago to catch a flight to ATH as an alternate. About a 4-6 hour drive, at least.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
If I remember correctly, Chicago was/is the number one unserved destination from Athens.
Quoting LJ (Reply 111): First revenue TATL flight will be on December 11th (from Europe December 12th) for a one time only IAH-AMS, thus UA will beat QR.
Actually I completely forgot about LOT... which will start their own flights really soon.
FreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0 Reply 118, posted (6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3349 times:
Quoting mayor (Reply 117): Nearby??? I don't believe STL is near enough to ORD to consider driving to Chicago to catch a flight to ATH as an alternate. About a 4-6 hour drive, at least.
That's "relatively speaking", of course......ORD/STL are not exactly co-terminals, as you know. Some people will opt for ground transportation, to get a nonstop flight. We get a lot of people doing this here in SEA, instead of taking commuter flights. We get people that take ground transportation from the other side of Washington, Oregon, Idaho, and Canada......to take direct flights out of SEA, for example. This happens all the time here. (It's about a five-hour drive from GEG to SEA).
And, then there are the people that live "between the cracks" that can use either/or.
Quoting JU068 (Reply 118): Actually I completely forgot about LOT... which will start their own flights really soon.
Which service is LOT starting up??
Quoting airbazar (Reply 116): I don't think QR is at all interested in beyond ATH connections. This is entirely geared towards using AA's hub at JFK to capture a piece of the Greek diaspora in the US, and especially in the East Coast.
I was mentioning this in terms of a UA/AA trip from ORD....... QR is focused on the New York/East Coast Greek clientele, obviously......
Well they are launching Warsaw-Chicago flights with their B787. I asked who will be the first airline to fly commercially their B787 across the Atlantic.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 120, posted (6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3280 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 101): Quoting Humberside (Reply 98):4. The US does have a say depending on what they agreed in the US-Qatar air service agreement and US-EU open skies deal
Open skies generally implies "7th freedom" rights. I'm not aware of any 'open skies' the US has signed that doesn't include such rights. The one think the US will never grant is cabotage or 8th freedom.
Exactly the opposite. 7th freedom rights are extremely rare in Open Skies agreements, and where they do exist they are almost always restricted to all-cargo operations. On the other hand, unrestricted 5th freedom rights are part of every U.S.open skies agreement to the best of my memory
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21290 posts, RR: 19 Reply 121, posted (6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3233 times:
Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 119): Some people will opt for ground transportation, to get a nonstop flight.
I lived in Saint Louis for a while, and I don't think I was aware of a single person who even thought of driving to Chicago to get a nonstop flight somewhere. STL is too well connected to ORD and a plethora of other hubs for that to make sense.
[Edited 2012-12-03 11:26:10]
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FreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0 Reply 122, posted (6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3200 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 122): I lived in Saint Louis for a while, and I don't think I was aware of a single person who even though of driving to Chicago to get a nonstop flight somewhere. STL is too well connected to ORD and a plethora of other hubs for that to make sense.
Actually, I have met a few.....but they've always been all large families/groups, not individuals or couples, for mid-summer travel.....as in German diaspora travel, and Greece-bound Washington University students.
Much(but not all) of the flying out of STL has gone down from Boeings and Airbuses to RJs, the past few years which kinds of changes the dynamics. Four or less people, and/or non-peak seasons generally no problem. With anything larger, and in the summer, the chances of getting seats on one leg of the trip, but not the other, is more likely to happen with STL based travelers.
Incidentally, with the demise of Malev, things have changed, too. STL and DTW a lot of Hungarians, and obviously taking other routes to get to BUD.......kind of messes with the inventory management, who will probably underestimate this,and having less "no-shows" on other flights, such as ORD-MUC or JFK-VIE........ORD of course, geographically, smack in the middle of this, and agents would be bumping people left and right next summer. Which is not good for all involved. Let's hope this is not the case.
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