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NY Times: UA Merger Still Rough  
User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2043 posts, RR: 3
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 16076 times:

Nothing here we don't already know really. Hope there isn't a thread on this already. But it's still worth sharing. The article acknowledges the problems of the company.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/bu...ntinental.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

139 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineclrd4t8koff From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 15711 times:

So is this just "teething" problems so-to-speak or did Smisek bite off more than he could chew?

*Not wanting to turn this into a Smisek bash, just curious if perhaps he isn't the right fit for this?


User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2043 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15445 times:

The article says that improving customer care is the top priority. Let's hope that means something.

User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1088 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15317 times:
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Bigger is not always better. It can like holding onto a gorilla by its tail.   

User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2896 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15232 times:
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They must be trying hard to fix what they know is problem #1, I recently got a GS online survey that took a solid 10 to 15 minutes to complete. It was very geared towards "customer service" and while each page was multiple choice, there was a box to write verbatims in. If you clicked and gave a low score, then it grilled you on that low score in order to get under the cause of the low score. Also a lot of probing about other airlines, both US and international carriers.

In my company, when we do 3rd party online surveys with clients, that data is taken very seriously and addressed. I hope United and Star Alliance really listen.

(not really related but the NYT story about Jennifer Lopez on UA is hysterical- more to do with bad customers vs bad customer service  



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlinesaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15206 times:

It is not possible to serve the customers by alienating your employees.


smrtrthnu
User currently offlineeastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15153 times:

Customer care? It took United 7 months to get back back at my wife on an online complaint she made about a flight delay (handled horribly) and regardless of what she got as compensation the point is that it took them 7 months....!!!! Way to go UA...not!!!


AA will Rise Again!
User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1264 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15135 times:

Hi folks,

I just flew with the "new" United ,

the routing was FLL - (sCO) UA 737-800 - IAH - (sUA) UA B-757-200 - LAS.

The ex Continental Aircraft looked fresh , with PTV and the Crew Uniform looked professional the crew somewhat tired though, the average Age (Crew) on Board was about 35 years. No Channel 9 but very informative Pilots.

The United Aircraft (sUA) B-757 was about 20 years old, looked tired, old and crampy. The Crew was wearing different uniform and the avarage age on Board was about 60! Channel 9 working, Pilots very informative and friendly.

Did not seems like one airline, more like 2 different to me!



Fly easyJet
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1600 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 14981 times:

[quote=NWAROOSTER,reply=3]Bigger is not always better. It can like holding onto a gorilla by its tail.

Which must mean it's pretty near impossible since gorillas don't have tails!


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2188 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 14746 times:

The article blurs some lines by mentioning the Houston situation. The City was angry that the airline moved jobs and the HQ out of Houston, but there was definitely no backlash against WN opening up an FIS facility at HOU. Then, they became angry again when UA announced they were reducing capacity and jobs at IAH and dropping the AKL flight on the 787.

But, then again, maybe the scope of the article wasn't to go into that whole debacle since that is a story in and of itself. However, there was still a key chronology in how that all played out.

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 7):
Did not seems like one airline, more like 2 different to me!

Very much so.

Also, so glad that I've discovered this @FakeUnitedJeff and am now following him on Twitter. This is absolutely hysterical!!!!



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 14666 times:

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 7):
The United Aircraft (sUA) B-757 was about 20 years old, looked tired, old and crampy. The Crew was wearing different uniform and the avarage age on Board was about 60! Channel 9 working, Pilots very informative and friendly.

Ironic that you felt it was cramped. S-UA is the reason Econ + is being installed in the S-CO fleet. Different uniforms are because we have not been issued new uniforms. Latest for the pilots is that we will receive our new combined airline uniforms in the fall of 2013. A full year and a half after being fitted!

As to the age of the crew you are seeing the difference in what has taken place at the two carriers. S-UA hasn't hired in many years due to the continuous reduction in size of the airline since 2001. S-CO on the other hand has been adding employees. Currently the pilots are about to commence voting on a combined contract. Those that vote NO will assure the continuous shrinking of S-UA at the benefit to the S-CO side of the house. S-UA will be parking many of their older 757's. the replacement is supposed to be 737-900's on the S-UA side. However, it makes no sense to create a separate program on the S-UA side when S-CO has a program and a payrate. When the TPA agreement expires with ALPA in March there will be zero protections for block hours on the s-UA portion.

If you like S-CO you potentially will get a lot more of it shortly. The S-CO pilots are trying to torpedo the potential contract because they stand to benefit the most with a continued decimation of the S-UA group. It is a shame that two ALPA groups have cratered the potential benefits of this merger.


User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 14585 times:
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Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 1):

A much as I hate to admit it, the former CAL management decided to keep their system and scrap the United system which Many of us feel was a mistake. Their system is built on servers while ours was built on mainframes that are pretty much bulletproof. A new computer center is being built in Elk Grove at the former WHQ but it's not built YET and until it is?? Stuff Happens, We're still operating as 2 separate airlines at present and when THAT will change? I have NO Idea.
I wish I COULD say it's somebody's Fault but it's Not.. it is what it is for the moment.
Jeff Smisek can be held accountable for one thing and one thing ONLY, all the open Contracts Still to settle and the Diddling while Rome is burning he's done with the pilot's contract, because THAT contract is holding up EVERY BODY ELSE'S contract and the CONTRACTS are holding up the unification of the workforce !!


User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 14486 times:
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Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 9):

Is Houston STILLL crying about that?? they need to get a GRIP. with 77 Wacker Drive closing and moving to the Willis tower?? They're going to be unhappy a DAMN LONG time at LEAST until 2028 if not FOREVER


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21624 posts, RR: 55
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 14255 times:

The most telling line from the article:

“You know, the cultural change takes time,” Mr. Smisek said. “And people resist change. People are sort of set in their ways.”

He added the airline was now intent on providing better operational performance and consistently good customer service. “And there are people who don’t like that,” he said. “I understand that. What I want is those people to either change or leave.”


He just doesn't get it. You can't blame your cultural problems on employees not wanting to do a better job. It's the CEO's job to change the culture. And if there are actually a significant number of people who don't want to provide better performance or customer service (which I doubt), then why is he waiting for them to change or leave when it's within his power to get rid of them?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1669 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 14089 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
It's the CEO's job to change the culture.

The CEO can present a framework for a culture. He cannot force John Doe at EWR to be nicer to his ramp supervisor.

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
when it's within his power to get rid of them?

Firing people in unions takes a very long time, not to mention it is detrimental to negotiations. He has gotten rid of people at WHQ that didn't get with the program, and that is going to continue.


User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13791 times:

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 5):
It is not possible to serve the customers by alienating your employees.

This just about says it all. I often feel that management at UA is an impediment rather than an enabler to the rank and file employees providing good customer service.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5571 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13597 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
He just doesn't get it. You can't blame your cultural problems on employees not wanting to do a better job.

While SHARES seems to have settled down now, back in March it appeared that some on the sUA side didn't commit to learning how to use it. When it all got too difficult they did nothing and blamed management.

Sure, management really should have provided better SHARES training, but there were some who were so anti it that they deliberately didn't learn how to use it.

Those are the sort of people he is referring to.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13522 times:
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Quoting Mir (Reply 13):

WHERE do you and others get a CULTURE from?? There is NO SUCH THING!! If your people are treated and PAID well then you can ask for MORE from them.. If you're NOT willing to do that?? Then you GET what you GET!! People got the idea that we at UNitede needed a culture fix, that is a bunch of Bunk!! We were undermanned and went toward tech to solve our problems No we Don't Kiss anybody's butts .. You're not Paying to get your butt kised you're paying to get where you're going SAFELY and that's ALL you should care about! And with the load factors we're flying?? Evidently nobody cares either!!


User currently offlinecosyr From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13415 times:

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 1):
*Not wanting to turn this into a Smisek bash, just curious if perhaps he isn't the right fit for this?

I don't want to bash Smisek either, he has his strengths, but there are different types of CEO's with different strengths. There are those great at Turn Arounds (Bethune), those great at cost cutting (Crandall), those best for steady the course (Kellner), and I think Smisek was what the Board wanted at the time to get a merger done and see it through. I don't think he's done yet, but after the labor contracts have been merged, it might be a better time for a Kellner type.

For an example of what I mean, Glenn Tilton was a Bankruptcy CEO who stuck around after the bankruptcy was done, and United was worse for it. Carlos Ghosn turned around Nissan, but now that it is a fresh booming company, time for a different type of leadership.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17489 posts, RR: 45
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13415 times:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 12):
Is Houston STILLL crying about that??

They can't be--IAH/HOU has gotten more OA capacity than UA has dropped. Europe capacity is up 10% because OA is up 20% and UA is down 10%. The capacity is following the money and jobs, and those are in Texas.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 13115 times:

Quoting cosyr (Reply 18):
I don't want to bash Smisek either, he has his strengths, but there are different types of CEO's with different strengths. There are those great at Turn Arounds (Bethune), those great at cost cutting (Crandall), those best for steady the course (Kellner), and I think Smisek was what the Board wanted at the time to get a merger done and see it through. I don't think he's done yet, but after the labor contracts have been merged, it might be a better time for a Kellner type.

IMO UA needs a Crandall type, then a Bethune type. Crandall for the no nonsense chainsaw mentality, then Bethune to spread excellence.


User currently offlineEASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 544 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11978 times:

I'm really getting sick and tired of a bred of a.netter bashing older crew members. When they entered the airline business they were developing a career. A CAREER. I,m starting work at 20-21 and plan to retire with that company. Lawyers, doctors. police fireman etc looked to a career. We wanted this as how we wanted to make our living. People today jump from job to job like frogs. No loyality, and a no care attitude. These people have worked all their lives to do good things and service. Let's not forget that the folks sitting in airline seats are alot different and don't appreciate that. BTW I was not a F/A.

User currently offlineclrd4t8koff From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11779 times:

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 21):
I'm really getting sick and tired of a bred of a.netter bashing older crew members.

As someone who spends a good amount of time on this site, I can honestly tell you that you're a little off base with this comment. Most on here don't bash older crew members because of their age, it's because of their surly and poor attitudes. I fail to see what the rest of your comment in regards to job loyalty has anything to do with your comment? So because a flight attendant is older and has shown the airline loyalty, we should respect their grumpy demeanor and overall lack of interest in their job?   


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7186 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11478 times:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 11):
all the open Contracts Still to settle and the Diddling while Rome is burning he's done with the pilot's contract, because THAT contract is holding up EVERY BODY ELSE'S contract and the CONTRACTS are holding up the unification of the workforce !!

Why, are they expecting to get the same percentages and perks?
The pilots have the power which they usually wield only for themselves, until all their demands are settled they will not sign a contract, as mentioned in the article, US pilots still have no contract 7 years after their merger. Not saying it will take as long, but how long will the other unions whose jobs do not involve piloting an a/c intend to wait before pushing their demands for their members and their working conditions?


User currently offlineEASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 544 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11307 times:

.Older F/as and newer ones are taught to dress well, proper makeup and pressed uniforms and a sense of pride. They are generally meet with passengers in tank tops, cut offs and flip flops. They are most likely hooked up to ear phones and ignor f/a,s , It's called respect. WN F/A's are down to earth and go with the flow, and it works. Senior F/A's were doing their job long before you were born. Get off their case

25 b52murph : Sums it up really well here. As a 1K, I recently got a survey after a phone call regarding customer service on the phone, which...on the 1K dedicated
26 FI642 : This is key to any airlines success. Happy Employees lead to Happy Customers.
27 strfyr51 : I don't know HOW it works at other airlines but when all the contracts became due the Pilots contract gets settled first then all the other contracts
28 liftsifter : At my hotel, whenever I greet a guest and check them in, we ask how their trip in was. Whenever there is a complaint it's about United, losing a bag o
29 Post contains images Mir : FYI, my post was actually defending the employees and implying that the problems that United faces are ones of poor executive leadership (i.e. failin
30 chopchop767 : I knew I wasn't the only one! This exact same occurence has happened on multiple occassions with me on European sectors also booked in full Y, albeit
31 bjorn14 : I think Houston was just looking out for its own. No longer having a 'hometown' airline they need to do what they need to do.
32 EaglePower83 : As part of the Millenials generation, I can tell you there's no real company loyalty bred in us. Why should there be? We've seen our parents laid off
33 Mir : While everything you've said is true, you could also look at it from the employer's end: now that the mindset you've described is pretty much ingrain
34 Flighty : It doesn't sound like you have any regard for the people you're denigrating. Not a way to win friends. If somebody is expecting to just do the same j
35 EaglePower83 : Agreed :/
36 tommy767 : That is all subjective. I had an interview with UA in Houston and there was a girl who flew in from PHX. I asked her how the was the flight and she t
37 ScottB : That attitude might be OK if you were a monopoly like the phone company used to be, but you have competitors. And those competitors foster a corporat
38 tommy767 : EWR gate agents in my experience this year have been really good. I think it's the below the line staff that sets people off. But that quote that Smi
39 RyanairGuru : Not that. Please understand that Jeff Smisek and Continental Airlines are NOT synonymous.
40 Post contains images MaverickM11 : That same person probably put all their retirement in Enron The problem is that the job was really never meant to be a career, which causes all sorts
41 Tdan : The corporate culture that Gordon nurtured and became synonymous with Continental has not been around since he left. With Larry, it was similar, but
42 slider : On the topic of culture, there are several things that need to be repeated here on this board. First, so much of culture is that of PLACE. Not only d
43 TakeOff : All I'll say is: I MISS CONTINENTAL. TakeOff
44 charlienorth : SOOO..what I'm gathering here is they should have kissed Houston"s butt and all would have been good? What culture should they embrace? The CO side is
45 Post contains images RyanairGuru : Absolutely. I do feel that Kellner did his best and actually managed to hold up the Gordon coalition pretty well, although it is fair to say that by
46 MaverickM11 : Probably, but on the UA side you had a company that was run by finance, shrinking for a decade, in bankruptcy for half of that, had one mission and o
47 Post contains links RDH3E : Ever heard of midwest hospitality? People in Chicago are very nice. If everyone treated each other the way people do in the Loop we'd have world peac
48 Post contains images denoldman : As a former 30 year employee of UA and a current employee of a major express carrier I simple had to join in this discussion. In my experience as mana
49 T5towbar : As a result, I'd argue the current UA corporate culture IS synonymous with Jeff as that was the way CO was heading pre-merger. Very true...........on
50 RDH3E : John Tague
51 Post contains images RyanairGuru : While he did well to bail when he did, he might have been a good candidate right now. He wasn't too timid to avoid making the tough decisions, but he
52 Post contains links tommy767 : That's too bad. Thanks for your insight. I don't. I'm glad they merged as if they didn't, CO would have been in deep doo-doo. Tilton might had been a
53 Alias1024 : This is very true. For most front line employees, their job satisfaction and performance will be more greatly influenced by their direct supervisor t
54 Coairman : I think the article is rather negative. UAL's ontime month to date, domestic mainline rate as of yesterday for November was near 86%. September finish
55 FreshSide3 : M Yes, major mistake. Also, not letting the agents do their job.......to much reliance on the "help desk" instead of being able to to the things they
56 FreshSide3 : The other thing is not being in synch with where the demand for the flights are. (1) All RJ's on SEA-LAX....and in fact, one is a single-cabin plane.
57 United1 : United is the largest airline between the mainland and Hawaii and has been for years...even bigger then HA....AS has certainly found a little nich an
58 FreshSide3 : Seattle really got hosed, in the Hawaii market. For a while, a few years ago, there was a Saturday-only HNL flight that never did well, mostly due to
59 United1 : The Sat only SEA-HNL and SAN-HNL flights were flown for a while as a part of a contract with Pleasant Hawaiian Holidays...when that contract ended UA
60 Mir : You can have the best front line employees in the world and the best direct supervisors, but if the upper management isn't up to snuff you will have
61 Post contains images UnitedTristar : HA the man who drove ATA under? Why would you want to let him at the helm of another airline to overspend and under plan? -m
62 jamake1 : As a legacy United employee, I frequently engage the company's highest level elite customers. The common theme among them since the merger has been ho
63 jamake1 : From what I've been told, Moscow is a seasonal suspension through the winter. IAD-DME will resume in Spring 2013.
64 klwright69 : There was another thread on here some time ago, indicating that IAD-DME is gone for good.
65 MaverickM11 : It was basically NW with better hubs, and a less reliable operation. It's funny how the FT 1K brigade think that the finance-run airline that charged
66 freakyrat : Qouting eastern023 "Customer care? It took United 7 months to get back back at my wife on an online complaint she made about a flight delay (handled h
67 tommy767 : All things considered, I'd give Tilton a B- and Smisek more like a C- or D+. I think when we look back 5 years from now the main culprits of the fail
68 brilondon : I find that the service is hit or miss. I found that if you take an old CO route through IAH you are more than likely to get a CO crew and a CO plane,
69 FlyHossD : Blatant lies. You act as though there are no Scope provisions in the L-UAL contract. Even if the TPA expires, you still have the block hour protectio
70 Post contains images MaverickM11 : For doing what? He took an airline through bankruptcy, and then just let it wither away, when instead he could have leveraged the newish post bankrup
71 Post contains images RyanairGuru : While I agree with your sentiment, have you been to EWR at any point since 2001? #ERJcity Exactly. However one might spin it, Tilton was the Parker o
72 FreshSide3 : Yes, that helps, but SHARES needed to get fixed before the "shell" was put on. The REAL issues are with the "base" program. Yes, definitely true....
73 MaverickM11 : True but that is more due to CO's constrained mainline fleet, rather than years of gauge reduction in EWR Parker and his team cobbled together two no
74 RyanairGuru : Good point, although being cynical it was probably more to do with scope than vision on the part of Kellner/Smisek. If they could have got large RJs
75 tommy767 : NOT in 2009/2010 when they merged. Anyone on this forum will tell you that CO was cut, cut, cut as well with a plethora of 739s and ERJs for expansio
76 delta2ual : DL merged with NW in 2008. UA emerged from BK in 2006.
77 EaglePower83 : Agreed. I witnessed something interesting shortly after the merger. I was connecting to BDL via EWR one night, and the plane leaving my gate prior to
78 jamake1 : Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Glenn Tilton did not let UA wither away, post-bankruptcy emergence. During his leadership, the LAX/SFO-JFK trans-
79 strfyr51 : That Sir? is a load of Bunk! I've SEEN the comments where A-Netters want the Flight attendants to be retired at 30-35 years old to keep young and com
80 Tdan : And lets see, 5/9 of those IAD routes are now gone. A 44% success rate on longhaul routes is about the same as DL's much maligned dartboard (for good
81 Post contains links MaverickM11 : Two years. They managed to barely pull it together for 2 years, after almost a decade of doing as little as possible. CO was one of the only (the onl
82 avek00 : Unfortunately, that expectation should have never been sold to the vast majority of any airline's workforce. Post-merger United has been forced to sp
83 ual777uk : So they were not spending money on PS, IPTE configered aircraft etc, that was a freebie was it??? You seem to have glossed over the fact that since t
84 RyanairGuru : I do in fact acknowledge up thread that CO was into cut mode by 2009. The nature of the cuts was only brining CO into line with its legacy peers (mea
85 tommy767 : What are you talking about? The only route that doesn't exist from PM UA's portfolio at IAD is DME and Ghana. That is clearly because UA had a much l
86 Post contains images jamake1 : Exactly right. IAD may have lost ACC and DME, but has gained DUB, MAN, and HNL service because of fleet/route re-deployment. I stand by my original p
87 MaverickM11 : It was because UA saw no value in investing in capital under Tilton, whatsoever, whether it was new planes, or updating the product. Even AA's M80s h
88 RyanairGuru : So? Maverick never said that they were growing across the system: To be fair, the CO BF upgrade wasn't much better. Plus their now infamous maintenan
89 MaverickM11 : I think it was pretty well balanced; it might have even been mostly CLE/IAH. True but I think that started about 2 years later and is done, or almost
90 RyanairGuru : I don't doubt you, especially re IAH, but I was trying to point the extreme illogicality in Tommy's statement. He basically responded to you suggesti
91 tommy767 : The only programs PMCO accelerated were the 777s (slowish) and 757s (fast.) This is because CO had no other widebodies to work with and had to compet
92 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Yeah, CO announced the new product and refitted the planes quickly, unlike UA's rebrand or IPTE which took longer than Haley's comet to come back aro
93 gigneil : Correct. Huh? CO's mainline fleet was wildly overprovisioned. NS
94 Post contains images MaverickM11 : They sent RJs to PHX/DEN/DCA/ORD because they had too many mainline aircraft?
95 RDH3E : And? UA is still supposed to receive 787's and 350's before Delta sees either. Does that make DL a failure?
96 MaverickM11 : It's about investing in the product, whether it's the fleet or anything the passenger touches. Delta has been very proactive and public about investi
97 RDH3E : So saying they didn't order aircraft is meaningless in and of itself. I won't argue that UA was the best airline in the world pre-merger, but things
98 Post contains images RyanairGuru : IFE: hmm marginal, how many people (not on ANet) refuse to fly US because of this? I don't know the answer, but I for one don't bother with IFE even
99 tommy767 : CO did nothing to reconfigure their 764s until the merger. And by 2009 they were already getting a little long in the tooth. I bash him after years o
100 sxf24 : The lead time for reconfiguration is significant - often several years. You can't judge on when the planning process started based on when the first
101 RyanairGuru : Their new Envoy product is, by most accounts, excellent. Plus they are phasing out the 737s in favor of brand new A321s, effectively growing capacity
102 sshank : I think you are missing the point here. No one claimed that UA was providing good customer service to everyone -however, they did provide good custom
103 avek00 : CO had announced pre-merger that its international fleet was to receive Flat Beds, starting with the 777s, then the 757s and 767s. The project was fr
104 STT757 : And the reason was perhaps the economic collapse? Or was the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression a time CO should have been more aggre
105 gigneil : Maybe. But its more likely its because those planes had lower fixed costs to fly and that's what the market would bear. The big items of the merger w
106 MaverickM11 : It was part of a bigger lack of investment in the carrier, until 2009/2010 after it became clear no one wanted to buy what Tilton was selling, or fin
107 Post contains images RyanairGuru : I've heard this a couple of times, but I'm confused why CO was taking delivery of 737s if they had too much narrow body capacity. Also, the last 733
108 tommy767 : They were negligent in the realm of wide bodies. They cancelled 10 764s, a few 777s, and but all their eggs into the 787 basket.
109 MaverickM11 : No they weren't; they had an order for 25 787s by 2007.
110 sxf24 : How is it negligent to plan your future fleet around the most capable and efficient aircraft available? Or, are you saying they were inherently negli
111 STT757 : They converted the 764s into additional 777s, remember CO originally only had 4 777s on order.
112 Post contains images RDH3E : He's saying they didn't contingency plan for 787 delays. Ahem *available* would be relative. You mean "for sale" the aircraft clearly wasn't availabl
113 STT757 : They did, they ordered 8 additional 777s in 2008. They later pared it back after the Economic collapse.
114 MaverickM11 : I think he's just saying (incorrect) things to say them
115 tommy767 : That's a bit of a weak excuse considering DL and AA took delivery of 777s during 2007-2008. CO needed the metal as they relied too heavily on 757s fo
116 RyanairGuru : And they weren't the only airline, rightly or wrongly. Although, yes they did order 777s 2007-2008 was before the worst of the crisis, which really h
117 Tdan : Stop right there, this is complete nonsense! CO didn't have to merge with anyone for fleet reasons. Heck, they had the best order book of the mainlin
118 sxf24 : Actually, using the smallest and most efficient aircraft that can feasibly operate a route makes excellent business sense. Flying a larger gauged air
119 STT757 : Tommy, the economic collapse was late 2008 into 2009. AA did not take delivery of any 777s after the economic collapse, their newest 777 is from 2006
120 tommy767 : I see the CO snobs have come out to play. Accept it. CO had faults and that is why they don't exist anymore. And I find it funny some are sticking up
121 RyanairGuru : I think if you re-read this thread then you will see that we have done so. Accept it. UA had faults as well. No. They don't exist anymore because a U
122 klwright69 : No, LOS and EZE are also no longer from IAD. No, not really, CO added EZE, LOS, and GIG were added from IAH. But, it should be noted that many TATL m
123 toobz : I'm struggling to think of a legacy that this doesn't apply to. I believe DL stated they made a nice profit off of domestic flying!
124 EaglePower83 : I've been doing some thinking...about US. Yeah it looks bleak for US if they don't get to hook up with AA........but, being based in the Hartford area
125 Post contains links Tdan : I don't know why I'm still arguing as it seems futile at this point, but maybe some facts will help Nobody was growing in 2008-2009...anywhere. Accor
126 strfyr51 : UA pulled SEA down when we had to give up the SEA-HKG route to CO after the Pan AM Pacific division came to United.
127 Post contains images RyanairGuru : Based in Greensboro, NC I 100% agree. Sure, having CLT up the road means that US has a pretty strong following in this state, but between CLT, PHL an
128 sxf24 : I see nothing to show that CO proved too small an aircraft can kill profits. The shift you're seeing is the deployment of 2-class regional jets, whic
129 FreshSide3 : It may be a good time to review a return to having SEA-HKG on the schedule, since UA/CO are now merged. There are a lot of concerns in SEA about losi
130 tommy767 : The airline business in the US was changing, and CO sat and watched. And that's not their fault how? As said, CO was only growing from EWR and IAH. T
131 Post contains links RyanairGuru : Because in 1991 nobody had even heard of an Embraer 145, so the idea that they would have forced through higher scope clauses is faintly ridiculous.
132 RDH3E : Did you forget a little blip where AA took over TWA?
133 RyanairGuru : Given the frame in discussion, I assumed that we were discussing 2007-2010. By that point STL had been substantially de-hubbed, and very little of TW
134 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Very poor = the largest hub in the world's top financial market, main energy market, 2nd largest Latin American network, 2nd largest European network
135 klwright69 : I was responding to some people on a.net that thought UA really wanted US.
136 RyanairGuru : Sorry! I wasn't referring to you. I was actually taking to Tommy, saying that because his fundamental point was fundamentally the same - UA wanted CO
137 strfyr51 : CO didn't Keep the SEA-HKG flight. (I have no Idea why) I think it went to Delta who moved it to PDX but NOW?? I have no IDEA who holds the route aut
138 mia : I don't mind "older" crew members. In fact age of crew has nothing to do with quality of service.
139 Post contains images Antoniemey : To replace older frames that cost much more (on a per-seat basis) to fly. Umm... 170s and Q400s are the same size, and while an E145 might not be the
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