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IB Unions Call For 6-day Strike On X-Mass Eve  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7990 times:

In protest for the 4500 jobs to being cut, the unions are planning a 6 day long strike, only a few days before X-Mass

Good move... this certainly will help  

Link in Spanish for the moment

http://www.emol.com/noticias/economi...huelga-en-visperas-de-navidad.html


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7876 times:

The strike is due to end on 21 December, so it won't be on Christmas Eve.

[Edited 2012-11-29 04:15:40]

User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 972 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7837 times:

Great move. IAG has taken a hatchet to that company, and the workers should remind everyone how much pain they're having to endure. How much you want to bet IB will be a shell of its former self in 6-8 years?

User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7830 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 2):
Great move. IAG has taken a hatchet to that company,

Your basis for this assertion is?


User currently offlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8546 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7784 times:
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Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 2):
IAG has taken a hatchet to that company, and the workers should remind everyone how much pain they're having to endure

- IAG are doing what they need to do to turn this carrier around. Yes there will be pain to start with but once turned around growth will start again.

The last thing the unions should be doing is alienating the airline customers, who do they think pay the bills, god?



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User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 972 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7779 times:

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 4):
The last thing the unions should be doing is alienating the airline customers, who do they think pay the bills, god?

It doesn't matter. The workers should remind everyone of what is happening to them in world where they are likely to be without employment for months after they're terminated. Countries like Spain can't absorb 4,500 workers that easily.


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2501 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7746 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 5):
Countries like Spain can't absorb 4,500 workers that easily.

and can Spain absord 18.000 jobs when the complete airline folds???



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7714 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 5):
It doesn't matter. The workers should remind everyone of what is happening to them in world where they are likely to be without employment for months after they're terminated. Countries like Spain can't absorb 4,500 workers that easily.

Nor can Iberia (which, like BA, has to stand on its own two feet in IAG) sustain the current rate of losses and cash burn.

It's a rather naive assumption that without job losses Iberia would just remain as it is.

Negotiations with the unions have only just started and to start with industrial action is reckless in the extreme. IAG management have been clear that industrial action will only make matters worse and when they say it will only accelerate the downsizing of Iberia they mean it.


User currently offlinerbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 592 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7656 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 2):
How much you want to bet IB will be a shell of its former self in 6-8 years?

It will be a lot quicker than 6-8 years if they keep this up.

Seriously, what is the company supposed to do?


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7567 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 7):
Negotiations with the unions have only just started and to start with industrial action is reckless in the extreme. IAG management have been clear that industrial action will only make matters worse and when they say it will only accelerate the downsizing of Iberia they mean it.

I agree that taking this kind of extreme measures will not help anybody. Customers are taking note about this and probably changing their plans, flying any carrier but IB in the last weeks of December.
OTOH, after an announcement like the one IB did ( 4.500 jobs are not a piece of cake ), expecting a calm reaction from the unions will be naive to say the least...specially in the current scenario of the Spanish economy...

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently onlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 938 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7490 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 1):

A lot of people will fly the previous days; for instance students who are more time-flexible and money-savvy. Also IB carries a lot of passengers to Latin America and many of them are spending even weeks in their home country, so they are more flexible as well and they might fly some days earlier than the 22/23. Anyway the issue is that 22/23 planes will have very few seats available, so how do you place the passengers that were supposed the fly the previous days?

Let's see, I am flying the 22th on BA (LHR-MAD) on an AA-ticket, so I assume a lot of IB rebooked passengers in my flight!

[Edited 2012-11-29 06:32:02]

User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7452 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 10):
A lot of people will fly the previous days; for instance students who are more time-flexible and money-savvy. Also IB carriers a lot of passengers to Latin America and many of them are spending even weeks in their home country, so they are more flexible as well and they might fly some days earlier than the 22/23. Anyway the issue is that 22/23 planes will have very few seats available, so how do you place the passengers that were supposed the fly the previous days?

That may be the case, but the thread title is still inaccurate! It implies a six day strike starting on Christmas Eve which is inaccurate.

[Edited 2012-11-29 06:23:41]

User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7453 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 10):
planes will have very few seats available, so how do you place the passengers that were supposed the fly the previous days?

You hit the nail... my wife and I will flight the 22nd., many people tries to avoid the chaos of the 23/24.
And, like you said, if you have people stranded since the 17,18,19,20,21.... it is just a recipe for a big, big nightmare.
If this comes true, the public image of IB, already not very good, will be even worst.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinetroest From Denmark, joined Mar 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7303 times:

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 4):
The last thing the unions should be doing is alienating the airline customers, who do they think pay the bills, god?

If customers can't rely on in IB of course you start looking for alternatives. IB could fall into a death spiral - too many strikes = less costumers = less income = IB bankruptcy = No jobs.
Then we wouldn't talk of 4,500 jobs being cut, but the whole IB company. Look at how SK had to cut 15-20% of workers salary or the company would go bankrupt.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 10):
Also IB carries a lot of passengers to Latin America and many of them are spending even weeks in their home country, so they are more flexible as well and they might fly some days earlier than the 22/23.



IB can not only live on "flexible passengers" and low ticket fares in Y. IB is certainly not flexible for business/premium/loyal passengers traveling Europe - Latin America. This segment is also very important to IB. Also competition from Latin American carriers are hitting IB hard with a much better product, and competition from AF/KL and LH expanding in Latin America have diminished IBs competitive advantage in Latin America.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7268 times:

more accurate 14, 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21 of December, so 5 days in a row just before the Xmas eve weekend that starts on 22nd, if they do they will create Chaos for the company and they will spoil many people holidays, people that will try to avoid IB like many of us do.

Planes on 22, 23 and 24 will be pretty full so no much possibility to rebook.

Seems like nobody in Spain can enjoy holidays without some collective making a strike.... Then they will ask themselves why they have to close routes and why people fly other airlines...


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7160 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 14):
Then they will ask themselves why they have to close routes and why people fly other airlines...
Quoting troest (Reply 13):
IB could fall into a death spiral - too many strikes = less costumers = less income = IB bankruptcy = No jobs.

They don't learn !!!! Having a so recent example with the Uruguayan PLUNA...they insist in the same recipe.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7081 times:

Does somebody know if Vueling flights will be affected by IB strike? IIRC Vueling handling is done by IB. Thanks


A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2798 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7058 times:
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Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 2):
Great move. IAG has taken a hatchet to that company, and the workers should remind everyone how much pain they're having to endure.

IAG hasn't taken a hatchet to the airline. The economy of Spain has been horrible. I can see being upset with your employer, but in a country with 25% unemployment they are pretty lucky to have jobs. I'm not saying bow down to the company, but it isn't like they are making hand over fist. They're hurting pretty bad and everyone suffers.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlinen729pa From UK - England, joined Jan 2011, 414 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6981 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 10):
Anyway the issue is that 22/23 planes will have very few seats available, so how do you place the passengers that were supposed the fly the previous days?



One option might be to upgrade some of the flights to A340s or with BA's help 767/777s etc, then again it's the busiest time of year so probably not too many aircraft sat around.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you get to where you're going without too much extra hassle.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6951 times:

Quoting spantax (Reply 16):
Does somebody know if Vueling flights will be affected by IB strike? IIRC Vueling handling is done by IB. Thanks

As far as I understand reading the article i guess they will affect all IB flight and any other flight that uses IB handling, because all the unions are joining.

"todos los centros de trabajo y actividades de la compañía" the strikes affects to all the workplaces and activities of the company.... so i guess, maintenance, cargo, handling, etc.....


User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6928 times:

Thanks, migair54. I've wrote to Vueling and (in an stonishing 10 minutes) got an answer, which says that no, Vueling flights won't be affected. But, somehow, I doubt... If handling is not performed by IB personnel, who are they going to use instead?

"Gracias por contactar con VUELING. En respuesta a tu e-mail, te informo que todos nuestros vuelos operarán con normalidad. Nuestra operativa no se verá afectada por huelgas convocadas por otras compañías aéreas."

Regards,



A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently offlineORD14R From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6789 times:

So we'll be going through MAD on Dec 17 to SVQ. Arriving Iberia and departing Iberia Express. If this is company-wide then I guess MAD will be a disaster that day. Great. Time to call AA.

User currently offlineORD14R From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6732 times:

By the way does anyone know if AA is handled by Iberia in MAD? I assume so. I wonder what the status of AA flights will be.

User currently offlineStratofish From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1051 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6730 times:

Quoting rbgso (Reply 8):
Seriously, what is the company supposed to do?

Equally seriously, what are the employees supposed to do? I mean really, they plan on getting rid of roughly a quarter of the workforce. The ones remaining will have to face salary cuts between 25% and 30%. They HAVE TO do something of equal magnitude. First, because it would send a fatal sign to employers the world over if they didn't; second, because they know what they will face if they're among the ones that will be laid off. Because in Spain everyone knows near friends and relatives that have to survive without a job.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 17):
IAG hasn't taken a hatchet to the airline. The economy of Spain has been horrible. I can see being upset with your employer, but in a country with 25% unemployment they are pretty lucky to have jobs. I'm not saying bow down to the company, but it isn't like they are making hand over fist. They're hurting pretty bad and everyone suffers.

Again, what's the alternative?

It's interesting that it's ALL the unions that are represented in IB call for the strike, except pilots/Sepla who are prohibited to join by law as long as they are renegotiating their contracts. That doesn't happen too often.
Link in Spanish: http://www.expansion.com/2012/11/29/...mpresas/transporte/1354183818.html

The main problem for IB is their poor product, not the workforce! And since there is little money in Spain at the moment they need to improve their product ASAP and INVEST heavily into their long-haul segment to get a bigger slice of the Latin American Cake. Instead IAG is effectively dismantling them and allegedly stealing funds and infrastructure to nurture BA, again allegedly, but still...
They have all my support and the strike is 110% justified! The timing, well, ok, we can debate on that.

Btw, we better get used to it because in 2013 we are very likely to see industrial action at most European carriers.



The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2501 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6698 times:

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 23):
Instead IAG is effectively dismantling them and allegedly stealing funds and infrastructure to nurture BA, again allegedly, but still...

Who told you that? BA had to go through rough times and is now able to generate profits... It is actually thanks to BA that the group is no deep in the red.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently onlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5664 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7002 times:

I can see the "Alan Joyce solution" being relevant here! Shut It Down until they agree to no more strikes! Worked wonderfully for QF. And Willy Walsh & AJ are mates so Walsh will know the details


Gemuser



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User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6944 times:

For the "English Only" readers, a link from the WSJ.
The strikes will continue along January 2013 according to this article...



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User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7053 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 26):
For the "English Only" readers, a link from the WSJ.
The strikes will continue along January 2013 according to this article...

Sorry, the link removes itself, weird since is from the free zone of WSJ.com.
And couldn't edit either, all I got is an error page.

Anyway, just Google "Iberia unions call for strike" and the first answer will be that page.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7006 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 2):
How much you want to bet IB will be a shell of its former self in 6-8 years?

I say the opposite will happen. It will emerge a stronger and better airline in a few years. This needs to be done so it has sustainable future.

WW did the same thing at BA to break the final militant union, and we are just seeing a repeat of this now happening at IB.

It's better to bring this to a head quickly rather than letting it fester.


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2798 posts, RR: 4
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7014 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 23):
Again, what's the alternative?

Well they could always, not strike..

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 23):
The main problem for IB is their poor product, not the workforce! And since there is little money in Spain at the moment they need to improve their product ASAP and INVEST heavily into their long-haul segment to get a bigger slice of the Latin American Cake. Instead IAG is effectively dismantling them and allegedly stealing funds and infrastructure to nurture BA, again allegedly, but still...
They have all my support and the strike is 110% justified! The timing, well, ok, we can debate on that.

But if there is no money in Spain where are they going to get the money to invest heavily into their fleet? The workforce as a whole might not be a problem, but when the economy is in shambles and not as many people are flying they have to cut costs and workforce is a cut that will save a lot of money. I feel bad for the employees, but striking over job cuts to keep the airline in business is pretty crazy. Their product may be an issue, but they need to save money in areas to finance the product upgrades because something telling me getting a decent loan in Spain is pretty tough right now. You may say they are nurturing BA but they have made a 286 Million operating profit through Q3 while IB had a 262 million operating loss. Unless there is some shaky accounting being done BA isn't getting any special treatment. I'm not sure what infrastructure has been stolen either. Could you please go into that some more? Trying to see what I'm missing since I'm not really up on IB/BA
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently onlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 938 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6962 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 29):

IB's current problems are not related per se to Spain's financial situation. Look at Vueling and how they have been adding capacity and planes in the last 1 or 2 years like there is no end.

Those issues (i.e. IB strikes in X-Mas are as typical as the Three Wise Men) have been going around for many many years now (also when Spanish economy was booming they would do strikes for whatever reason)... it just now that it blew up... the crisis has reduced traffic, many European airlines are also in financial trouble (not only IB) and last but not least (and this is a critical point to understand this), Spain has new work regulations that make much easier than only year ago to fire or change conditions of lousy employees when the company is at a loss. The same employees that would rather see their own company bankrupt than to make changes to improve it.

So it is the perfect time for IAG to finally do a new IB... I am confident that they will do... Alitalia was a just a few years ago in a pretty similar situation and now it is improving.


User currently offlineStratofish From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1051 posts, RR: 5
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6836 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 29):
Well they could always, not strike.

I think we cannot expect them to just work as normal and pray "please don't let it be me this time!", can we?

Money is hard to come by these days in Spain, that's true, also IB management has neglected investment into their hard product for at least a decade. On the other hand it is also true that IB was generating profits up until 2008 and especially in todays scenario things should have been sped up significantly by IAG. After all IB needs new cabin interiors and their A333s a whole lot sooner than BA needs more 777s one can say. But that's as far as I would go.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 29):
Could you please go into that some more? Trying to see what I'm missing since I'm not really up on IB/BA

We had that in the last IB thread about 2 weeks ago. The unions claim IAG used IB funds to pay into BA's pension scheme and they want to dismantle IB to use MAD T4 for their own. While we cannot prove or disprove their claim it is telling that the unions provided hard figures and IAG only denied the accusations while it would have been easy for them to disprove them. Links to articles can be found in the old threat. Iberia To Cut 4,500 Jobs Under IAG Restructuring (by BreninTW Nov 8 2012 in Civil Aviation)
Again, these are allegations which I marked and treated as such in my previous post.

If they were striking for a pay rise or something like that, then I'd also say they're out of their minds. But laying off 4,500 workers and reducing the fleet after (kind of) accepting pay cuts (and leaving the field to LATAM, AV, TP).
In times of Spanish democracy there has probably never been a more valid reason to strike at IB.



The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2798 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6790 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 31):
I think we cannot expect them to just work as normal and pray "please don't let it be me this time!", can we?

Nobody wants to have to worry about losing their job. But striking and causing further financial harm is only going to make for larger job cuts.

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 31):
We had that in the last IB thread about 2 weeks ago. The unions claim IAG used IB funds to pay into BA's pension scheme and they want to dismantle IB to use MAD T4 for their own.

Thanks for the link I'll check it out. My only question is how can they get away with it? Wouldn't be pretty easy to spot in financial reports?
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6648 times:

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 31):
I think we cannot expect them to just work as normal and pray "please don't let it be me this time!", can we?

No. We can't. When you have family, a wife, kids... just thinking about being jobless in an adverse scenario like the one Spain has today, is just horrible. I think we are all agree about that. But I would expect more innovative ideas from the unions, they are not low qualified people, they should have more ideas and not play the strike card every single time there is a problem ( I don't know, how about a proposal to the management : Cut the salaries in a progressive way, including management, or allow us to make some days of unpaid work every month but keeping our jobs, I mean, when you are talking about how to avoid the death of the company, there are a lot of things you can do before calling a strike ). And, if your management doesn't hear you, Ok, call for the strike.... but not in the worst possible week of the year !!!! That is just a call for disaster, the ( already few ) people who choose IB over LA,BA, AZ, TP, LH,AF. etc. etc. ) will never, ever go back to IB after sleeping three days in an airport and seeing their X-Mass plans ruined by the bad timing of this strike. This strike, if becomes true, will be probably the last, and not for good reasons, but for the whole airline becoming just a money sucking black hole, and a dead airline after that ( just a bigger Pluna !! ). You can't save a man from drowning in the ocean throwing a rope with a rock to him. JMO.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6407 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 24):
Who told you that? BA had to go through rough times and is now able to generate profits... It is actually thanks to BA that the group is no deep in the red.

Too true, I remember the days of Rod Eddington, that's when the cost cutting began and WW came in to reinforce that. Thanks to WW BA is the airline it is today, although it went through some very rough times.

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 31):
The unions claim IAG used IB funds to pay into BA's pension scheme and they want to dismantle IB to use MAD T4 for their own.

Pffff, this has to be unfounded. These two companies are run individually and it would make no sense for BA to fly from MAD when IB is the known and trusted (to a certain extent) brand on the key SA routes from Spain.

The way I see this is that the unions in Spain have a massive hold over IB due to outdated contracts. Spain is in a massive recession and these workers need to give something back to the company in order to keep their jobs. Other airlines have gone through the same restructure and have come out the otherside making profits. I've seen some of the agreements that IB have in place for their staff and compared to other airlines and the world we live in, they are laughable.

If IB staff (and I appreciate some members on here work for IB) don't give and take then there will be no jobs at all. The airline will go bankrupt and will start under another name with IAG offering some staff contracts on completely different terms to their current ones, probably to their detriment.



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6249 times:

What's to stop IAG "Phoenixing" Iberia?

Close Iberia down, liquidate the assets and start Iberia (2013) ltd.

New contracts and new terms and conditions.

Problems solved, you emerge leaner and slicker.

With the unemployment rate so high, people would scramble for the chance of working.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 2):

Great move. IAG has taken a hatchet to that company, and the workers should remind everyone how much pain they're having to endure. How much you want to bet IB will be a shell of its former self in 6-8 years?

I'm honestly speechless that someone could view a situation so naively...
If these cuts don't occur, then they'll REALLY send a clear message of how much pain they're having to endure when the entire company is allowed to continue nose-diving into bankrupt and ALL of the workers will get to suffer through unemployment. That would be an even more vivid "reminder," no?

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 5):
It doesn't matter. The workers should remind everyone of what is happening to them in world where they are likely to be without employment for months after they're terminated. Countries like Spain can't absorb 4,500 workers that easily.

Surely you must be able comprehend that the alternative to these layoffs is lengthy unemployment for ALL of the employees, right? ...that is what happens when a company goes bankrupt.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 6):
and can Spain absord 18.000 jobs when the complete airline folds???

18,000 or 4,500 unemployed IB workers? What's your choice Usdcaguy, how many do you want to suffer? Surely with your compassion and care for the workers, you might consider applying some logic to your position.


User currently offlineBommerJan From UK - England, joined Dec 2005, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5004 times:

Yay.... it means good bye Iberia... if this strike really takes place..... the employees just don't get it! It is time to work harder at the customer experience not less

User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4972 times:

Please correct the misleading thread title.

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 31):
there has probably never been a more valid reason to strike at IB.

I agree. For once, IB employees have a very good reason to strike. Unfortunately, their numerous senseless and arbitrary strikes of the past have taken away their credibility. But seeing the plans that have been announced, they have every reason to strike, and they have nothing to lose either.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 35):
Close Iberia down, liquidate the assets and start Iberia (2013) ltd.

New contracts and new terms and conditions.

Problems solved, you emerge leaner and slicker.

That is not so easy to do it seems, because it is precisely what IB has done with IB Express, and that is now back to square one after going through the courts.
But the "leaner" IB you mention is already in the works: those lucky enough to keep their jobs at IB will have to accept pay cuts of around 30%.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4697 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 38):
Please correct the misleading thread title.

Is not misleading. The Union is calling for a strike exactly in the days before the big majority of the people will initiate its travel for X-Mass

Quoting migair54 (Reply 14):
more accurate 14, 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21 of December, so 5 days in a row just before the Xmas eve weekend that starts on 22nd

Why is this so hard to understand ? It is very simple, everyone who can avoid travelling the 24/12 at 6 PM tries to book flights the 21,22 or 23, and this year the X-Mass weekend starts on 22nd. Having a backlog of flights from the 5 previous days, is just something impossible to handle to any airline, and if this strike occurs, THOUSANDS of people will be affected and will have a sad, miserable experience for Christmas.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineuALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4658 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 38):
For once, IB employees have a very good reason to strike. Unfortunately, their numerous senseless and arbitrary strikes of the past have taken away their credibility. But seeing the plans that have been announced, they have every reason to strike, and they have nothing to lose either.

I fully agree on all counts. I try to avoid flying IB as much as I can, and I despise the sense of entitlement that many workers there seem to have, yet the direction IB's (or IAG"s) management has taken in the last few years seems indeed designed to destroy the carrier and its people. Hence the strike.

It's worth recalling here that, previous to the acquisition by BA (oops, I meant merger), IB had been profitable for many (more than 10?) consecutive years. Since then, it has lost money every single year. Of course, since 2009 the crisis has hit Spain hardest, but still... It is not true that IB was in trouble when it merged with BA. It is not true that, for some reason, IB is and has always been a basket case.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4631 times:

Awful news- ofcourse it is the passengers who are left in the dark at the end of the day.

If you are facing redundancy because the airline you are working for is haemorrhaging money, the last thing you want to do is close the airline down during its busiest period of operations and cause the company massive losses.

Times are very very bad in Spain- the economy is shot to pieces- there are very few jobs in the country as it is- each and every person employed by Iberia should be thankful that they have a job to go to each morning.



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineGeo772 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4610 times:

The restructuring of Iberia is something that is desperately needed. A company haemorrhaging cash has to undergo a radical amount of change. While job cuts are always regrettable sometimes they are necessary. Rather than strike the spanish unions should be trying to negotiate the best possible terms for redundancy, keeping wherever possible the number of compulsory redundancies to a minimum. During the restructuring of BA over the last few years this has been something closely adhered to. As a result the company is now leaner and more competitive than ever before.

Some on here have blamed the hard product at Iberia for their problems - this is absolute rubbish. Iberia's product may not be the ultimate in terms of refinement or luxury but it is certainly more than up to the task. The situation in Spain is pretty simple, people don't have the money to travel, it doesn't matter if you offer the very best 5 star product if people can't afford to get on the plane, to get them to travel you need to have an affordable product. This is only possible to do profitably if the company is lean and efficient. Having a low staff cost base is crucial to enable this.

As far as the travelling public goes strikes over holiday periods are very emotive. Ruin someone's Christmas and you'll almost certainly lose their business for quite some time. This was seen with the cabin crew strike at BA a few years ago.



Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4604 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 38):
I agree. For once, IB employees have a very good reason to strike.

No they don't. IAG will not back down in the face of strike action. End of story.

However, there is plenty of history at BA that IAG management will be receptive to creative intelligent negotiation that minimises the impact of structural change on employees (see BALPA negotiations with BA on the pension deficit) and will not back down in the face of outright militancy (see BASSA and BA cabin crew).

Quoting uALWN (Reply 40):
It's worth recalling here that, previous to the acquisition by BA (oops, I meant merger), IB had been profitable for many (more than 10?) consecutive years.

No. It had made losses before the merger with BA. Burying their heads in the sand with half-baked conspiracy theories will get IB employees nowhere.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4531 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 39):
Is not misleading. The Union is calling for a strike exactly in the days before the big majority of the people will initiate its travel for X-Mass

The very simple and straightforward point posters are trying to make is your title implies that a six day starting on Christmas Eve, ergo a strike running from 24-29 December 2012 which is not the case.

[Edited 2012-11-30 04:03:32]

User currently offlinebluesky73 From UK - England, joined Oct 2012, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4511 times:

Iberia staff need to realise that the airline needs to become more efficient if it is to survive and thrive in future.

It's not nice to go through redundancy but unfortunately IB is a business they need to get trim and fit if they are to continue to compete.

It is hard times globally and looking at positives hopefully many staff will get a payoff and once IB is toned up and profitable again job opportunities will arise.

If IAG don't act now IB may be confined to the history books which will be a sad day for European aviation.

As much as I respect staff raising concerns and making a statement I think a reality check is in order before more lose their jobs. What happens in Spain affects the rest of Europe too!

Good luck to all involved and I hope the IB brand will long continue.


User currently offlineuALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4448 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 43):
No. It had made losses before the merger with BA.

You can find IB's results from 1996 on in this page:
http://www.es.iairgroup.com/phoenix....html?c=240950&p=irol-reportsannual

Profit (loss) after taxes In million euros from 2000 on, in million pesetas 1996-1999:

2009: (273); 2008: +32; 2007: +323; 2006: +85; 2005: +513; 2004: +106; 2003: +106; 2002: +143; 2001: +50; 2000: +179; 1999: +16052; 1998: +51291; 1997: +11029; 1996: +2372.

So that's 13 consecutive years of IB profits before the merger with BA.

[Edited 2012-11-30 05:06:24]


AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4428 times:

Quoting uALWN (Reply 46):
So that's 13 consecutive years of IB profits before the merger with BA.

And the losses came before the merger with BA (January 2011).

So the claim by some that Iberia had a unbroken record of profitability before BA set out to destroy the airline is complete and utter nonsense.


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

Quoting uALWN (Reply 46):
You can find IB's results from 1996 on in this page:

You should really be looking at the operational profit/loss, and not the net, as they cave such things as sales of assets, provisions, currency adjustments and so on.
So those €32 million "profit" was in fact a loss of more than €80m in operations in 2008.
2009 was pre-merger! And that was a huge loss, operational and net.

It's not difficult to correlate the performance of IB with the economic bubble Spain was riding on. To come and claim that it's the fault of the merger or the british is just delusional.
Just like Spain has to adjust its sums, so must IB if it's to be viable. I would live to see a rejuvenated Iberia. But if its re-structuring proves impossible, then Vueling, which will be controlled by IB/IAG can perhaps venture into the long haul and take IB's flag. Vueling is expanding very nicely in Europe and seems to have enough energy for much more.


User currently offlineuALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4392 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 47):
And the losses came before the merger with BA (January 2011).

The merger was announced in 2009 and the agreement was signed in 2010. In any case, IB also booked a profit in 2010 (+89 M€). So in the 15 tears before the merger with BA, IB had one year of losses (2009).

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 47):
So the claim by some that Iberia had a unbroken record of profitability before BA set out to destroy the airline is complete and utter nonsense.

I'd say that it is more nonsensical the claim by some that IB was in desperate need of help when it merged with BA.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineuALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 48):
2009 was pre-merger! And that was a huge loss, operational and net.

Followed by a nice rebound in 2010 (+89 M€ profit).

[Edited 2012-11-30 05:32:07]


AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4370 times:

Quoting uALWN (Reply 49):
The merger was announced in 2009 and the agreement was signed in 2010. In any case, IB also booked a profit in 2010 (+89 M€). So in the 15 tears before the merger with BA, IB had one year of losses (2009).

The merger completed in January 2011. That's when IAG was formed.

Quoting uALWN (Reply 49):
I'd say that it is more nonsensical the claim by some that IB was in desperate need of help when it merged with BA.

Don't think anyone is really asserting that.


User currently offlinetroest From Denmark, joined Mar 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4044 times:

I got this letter from IB ( in Spanish only) stating why they have to do restructuring in the company. Also did they mention the false claim about IBs cuts and restructuring of the company had to do with merger with BA.

Link (in Spanish only):

http://www.iberia.com/ibcomv3/conten...ion.clientes.av.1211&mail=true

[Edited 2012-11-30 19:47:51]

User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 6):
and can Spain absord 18.000 jobs when the complete airline folds???

Exactly.

The logic and subsequent actions used by unions at times is bordering on crazy.

Sometimes drastic actions are needed, and in aviation those actions can be more severe than many others due to the competitive environment we operate in.


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3878 times:

Quoting uALWN (Reply 50):
Followed by a nice rebound in 2010 (+89 M€ profit).

Yes, and? Spanish GDP was also positive in 2010, a rebound from the year before. But look at it now!

Quoting troest (Reply 52):
I got this letter from IB ( in Spanish only) stating why they have to do restructuring in the company. Also did they mention the false claim about IBs cuts and restructuring of the company had to do with merger with BA.

It is also available in English: http://www.iberia.com/ibcomv3/conten...icacion.clientes.av.1211&mail=true

It is a frank plea for a bit patience whilst they sort out the company. Or hope to anyway..
I don't have any hope, as the unions fed by Sepla's conspiracy theories of the British "pirates" robbing Iberia, don't have a grasp of reality to accept that job losses and salary maybe necessary.
The letter from IB's chairman seems to be open to negotiation on the numbers.

No airline has a divine right to exist, so if Iberia has to close, the upset would only be temporary whilst its role its filled by others.


User currently offlinecaribillo From Spain, joined Jul 2006, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3756 times:

Main issue here is the unions representatives that are suppose to negociate with the Company are the ones would lose their jobs (over 50 years old). So they give a damn about IB's future.


Red, orange and yellow...with a big crown!
User currently offlinetroest From Denmark, joined Mar 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3650 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 54):
It is also available in English: http://www.iberia.com/ibcomv3/conten...=true

Thanks summa767


User currently offlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3492 times:

I think that the unions should consider that given the choice between "doing nothing" and "doing something" that will make the situation even worse, isn't it better to do nothing? If Iberia needs to cut its operations because it's losing money, then threats and strikes won't change this and if they manage to make the company lose even more money and customers at the busiest time of year, then the cuts will have to be even deeper. I think the company should respond to this by planning for increased cuts in capacity and workforce as a result of the expected losses due to the strike, and show that to the unions. Tell them: OK, so if this strike goes ahead, we will need to cut 35% of the workforce instead of 25%.

User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 54):
Yes, and? Spanish GDP was also positive in 2010, a rebound from the year before. But look at it now!

Uh? Actually, Spain's GDP shrunk slightly in 2010 and grew slightly in 2011. In both cases below 1%. We'll see the final 2012 numbers.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3212 times:

Quoting troest (Reply 52):
I got this letter from IB

Very clear. It will be nice to know an answer from the unions about the content of this letter.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 54):
No airline has a divine right to exist, so if Iberia has to close, the upset would only be temporary whilst its role its filled by others.

I'm fully aware about the astronomical differences between IB and PU, or between the markets of Spain and Uruguay, but still, I think the case of PU could be a valid example of an airline who everyone in the country considered "sacred", untouchable, since was part of the history of many generations of the Uruguayan people.... the truth is, after its closure, the gap in the connectivity of the country was filled by other carriers and no one has died because of PU going belly up...

Quoting caribillo (Reply 55):
So they give a damn about IB's future.

If your assertion is true, that will be a very miserable, selfish way of thinking from their part...

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 57):
Tell them: OK, so if this strike goes ahead, we will need to cut 35% of the workforce instead of 25%.

No... is not 35 % instead 25 %, could be perfectly 100 % if the damage is deep enough to start a chain reaction that could end in a full closure of the "current " IB...

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2964 times:

I agree that IB must lower its labor costs and that some layoffs are inevitable, but expecting workers to simply accept everything and shut up for some "greater good" (of whom?) is quite naive as well, specially when nobody knows what will happen to IB long term (regardless of strikes). And they have nothing to loose, as their future - regardless of within or outside the company - is bleak in all cases. Might as well go down with a fight. And maybe they'll even get IAG management to propose a true transformation plan, rather than a simple cut-IB-to-the-bone plan as currently. I continue to believe that this is the first IB strike in many years which is fully justified, albeit with a badly chosen timing with regards to their already poor public image.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 48):
It's not difficult to correlate the performance of IB with the economic bubble Spain was riding on.

And yet, IB cannot be accused of riding the Spanish bubble and overexpanding - rather the contrary. They were highly conservative, placed no new aircraft orders for long-haul, did not invest a cent into fleet renovation, and most new longhaul destinations were opened at the expense of reducing others. The only real net expansion happened via VY. The good thing of that (lack of) strategy though is that now their fleet and route network is right-sized for the current economic climate. They "only" have a severe cost-base problem to fix - no small task.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 59):
could end in a full closure of the "current " IB...

The full closure may likely happen anyway regardless of the strikes, though it would not mean the disappering of the airline but IMO something in the form of a transfer of assets and a refounding of IB through IB Express or Vueling.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 61, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2387 times:

update: the strike has been called off unilaterally, although no agreement has been reached between unions and management. Possibly due to the wrong message it would send to customers, and the further deterioration of the union's image due to strikes from the past.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/economia...tos-iberia-desconvocan-huelga.html


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