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New Airline: Skygreece Airlines  
User currently offlinemitris From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 24 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 18246 times:

The airline will start direct flights from Athens to North America this summer. They will be using A340-300 equipment to destinations such as New York, Chicago, Montreal, and Toronto.

I'm not sure how the airline will be successful using A340-300 aircrafts (consuming more fuel), after Qatar's announcement of having direct flights from ATH to JFK all year long, and competing with airlines such as AC, DL, US during season times.

I do, however, wish them good luck.

http://www.skygreece.com/

[Edited 2012-11-29 05:48:30]

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebrightcedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1288 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 18066 times:

At first I thought it's a student's web project but maybe it isn't seeing the FB page.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the future of this initiative in the face of QR's news earlier today.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 18051 times:

This airline will never take off ("no pun intended"  )


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlinelollomz From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 17992 times:
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Any idea about the A340? Maybe ex-Olympic machines ?????

User currently offlinemitris From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 17929 times:

Quoting lollomz (Reply 3):
Any idea about the A340? Maybe ex-Olympic machines ?????

SkyGreece will be operating ex-Gulf Air's A340-300s. They ones which were intended to go to Hellenic Imperial.


User currently offlinemitris From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17808 times:

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 2):
This airline will never take off ("no pun intended" &nbsp 

I believe it already has  http://www.aerotelegraph.com/neue-ai...e-athen-usa-kanada-qatar-skygreece

SKYGREECE AIRLNES A340-300


User currently offlinebluesky73 From UK - England, joined Oct 2012, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17726 times:

Another creative livery and brand...not.

If I had a new airline I would want to be bold and make a statement. Hope they make more effort in advertising through media.

Good luck all the same SkyGreece


User currently offline3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17706 times:

^^ Thats the most obvious Photoshop job I've ever seen. The top of the last E in "GREECE" is in midair. Really poor effort by whoever did this, 4/10. Airfleets.net records SX-DFA as being an Olympic registered A340-300, no mention of SkyGreece.

On another note, wonder how this effects QRs plans? Clearly there's a big hole in the US-Greece market that someone needs to fill.


User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17697 times:

Nice photoshop there.


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17561 times:

Looks like they slapped their titles on this image:
http://www.air-passion.be/photos/displayimage.php?album=24&pos=14

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 6):
Good luck all the same SkyGreece

Who needs luck when they have God on their side  

The three founders:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...94.unitary&type=1&relevant_count=1


User currently offlinemitris From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17512 times:

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 7):

^^ Thats the most obvious Photoshop job I've ever seen. The top of the last E in "GREECE" is in midair. Really poor effort by whoever did this, 4/10.

On another note, wonder how this effects QRs plans? Clearly there's a big hole in the US-Greece market that someone needs to fill.

Omg, you're so right. I did not notice that. This picture was at this website:
http://www.aerotelegraph.com/neue-ai...e-athen-usa-kanada-qatar-skygreece

Anyway, time will tell if SkyGreece will be successful. However, Hellenic Imperial followed the same plan by starting flights to JFK almost 2 years ago, but unfortunately they had to terminate them. I wonder if that route would have been successful if it was operated by the A340-300s they had on order instead of their old B747-200s.

I believe QR will be do just fine. It's not a start up airline, it is profitable, and the B787 will be a very efficient aircraft compared to the A340-300 that SkyGreece Airlines is planning to operate.

[Edited 2012-11-29 10:22:44]

User currently offlineVasu From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 3860 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17404 times:

I thought Hellenic Imperial had got hold of A340s... are they not operating the New York route out of Athens?

User currently offlinePMUA787 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 17223 times:

Looks like the kind of airline at the company I work at that we would deliver the aircraft to on behalf of a leasing company and repossess from six months when they go Tango Uniform.

User currently offlinemitris From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17069 times:

Quoting Vasu (Reply 11):
I thought Hellenic Imperial had got hold of A340s... are they not operating the New York route out of Athens?

The A340s never got delivered to HIA. They used to operate the ATH-JFK route in the summer of 2011 with B747-200s, but after a while all flights to the US were ceased.

[Edited 2012-11-29 13:48:36]

User currently offlineskyduster From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16983 times:

If this is a real airline, my instinct is that they'll end up with the same fate as Hellenic Imperial.

The so-called "diaspora market" just isn't enough to fill seats. That's exactly what this airline is banking on, just by the fact that they'll only be serving New York, Montreal, Toronto, and Chicago, and will be ignoring potentially more lucrative routes within Europe and to/from the Middle East. IMO, they're more likely to be successful if they start small, and look for short-haul flights that are underserved, especially in countries like Poland and Russia whose economies are growing, and from where more and more tourists to Greece are coming from. Not counting tourists that arrived by cruise ship, more Poles arrived in Greece in 2011 than Americans. 435,000 Poles arrived in Greece in 2011, vs 388,000 Americans, according to Greece's tourism statistics available at statistics.gr

Another good idea for a start-up airline in Greece is for an ATH hub with certain key domestic and short-haul European/MidEast routes, with the eventual aim of a code-sharing deal with DL, since DL may soon be losing OA as a code-share partner, if OA is to be bought out by and merged into Aegean which is a Star Alliance member. (Aegean and Olympic previously tried a merger, which was denied by the European competitions commission, on anti-competitive grounds, but Aegean and OA have launched a new merger bid, believing that certain elements have changed and that they can now achieve EU approval).

Chicago has never been able to sustain direct non-stop flights to Athens. If Chicago has, say, 60,000 Greek-Americans (people with recent ancestry from Greece, and who still have relatives in and connections with Greece), the airline will need every single one of those people to fly to Athens twice a year, every year, in order to justify sending a 300-seater A340/330 or B767 back and forth on a daily basis...or at least once a year, but still every year to justify thrice-weekly flights. Either that, or a 200-seater with a considerable first-class section, which won't sell out on this heavily leisure route that lacks options to connect to destinations beyond ATH (like DOH, DXB, AUH, etc). It's just not going to happen, especially with the countless indirect options that are out there via JFK, PHL, LHR, CDG, FCO, MAD, FRA, AMS, IST, WAW, you name it...

The other 3 cities (Toronto, Montreal, New York) already have non-stop service to Athens. YUL-ATH and ATH, though seasonal (this is a seasonal market after all), are served by both Air Canada and Air Transat. New York has seasonal direct flights with Delta and, soon, year-round with Qatar. And let's not forget PHL-ATH seasonal service with USair. And before both the fiscal crisis in Greece and the US recession, DL also did ATL-ATH seasonal, JFK-ATH was year-round, and CO did seasonal EWR-ATH. So, clearly demand dipped a little after 2008/2009. When it jumps back up, I'd expect more year-round seat capacity from New York, and possibly Canada from AC, and maybe even IAD with UA. These cities are perfectly positioned, geographically, to collect ATH-bound travelers from all over the USA/Canada, and put them on ATH flghts through their hubs at JFK, EWR, IAD, etc.

[Edited 2012-11-29 14:28:35]


mostly lurker, very rare poster
User currently offline3rdGen From Bahrain, joined Jul 2011, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 16761 times:

This airline is planning to use ex GF 340s that were originally planned for Hellenic. In another post I wrote about two GF 340s that were painted in Hellenic colours but never reached them, they returned to BAH and are have been sitting idly for the past 1 year.

I don't know why they want to use 343s I think it's the low cost. But wouldn't 763ERs be a better choice? Do they have the legs for the routes they're planning?


User currently offlineFreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16667 times:

Yes, I wish them luck, but are afraid they will end up with the same fate as Hellenic Imperial.

However, there is more to the US-Greece market below the surface. Yes, there is a big glut of tourists coming out during the summer----which everyone knows about. But the diaspora thing has some subtle issues, and that mainly has to do with convenience. Lots of complex nuances here.

Not everyone lives near New York. Not everyone has direct flights to New York or the European capitals. And not everyone is just going to Athens. Some have to take boats or flights to the islands, and some have to drive into the mainland for several hours. Elimination of one stop, on one end, the other, or both, is a big selling point.

Yes, I firmly believe that the Diaspora CAN support Chicago-Athens, for a number of reasons. Keep in mind that Illinois not only has a large Greek contingent, but the surrounding states(MI/IN/MO/OH) do too. Just like people coming to New York, and take the train from CT, RI, etc.......the folks in the neighboring states can do the same.

At the secondary airports in some of these states, there are also no flights the US gateways or Europe. For example, going from South Bend, IN to Rhodes would typically take three plane changes....i.e. SBN-UA-ORD-LH-FRA-LH-ATH-OA-RHO. This is not to mention the routings that require driving, or take boats. Lots of these kinds of routings out there.....because there is no other choice. People in the diaspora would go more often if it wasn't a hassle. Price is really not the reason why people don't go every year.

St. Louis, which is fairly close to Chicago, does not have any Europe service. A good portion of the STL Greeks are connected with Ioannina, which is in the western aprt of the mainland. STL also has a large Albanian contingent, too. There will never be nonstops from the USA to Albania(even from NYC), so there is large dependence on Italy/Greece connections. Cleveland does not have any Europe service, either.

The "core" of the five-state region can indeed support ORD-ATH. And some business, student, and west coast travel can put it way over the top. Bundle all these factors together, and you have a flight with much synergy.

Chicago, incidentally, had a direct trip on Olympic, a number of years ago....BUT.....it was a one-stop/no plane change via JFK. Effectively, New Yorkers would buy most of the seats, and OA basically had a station open, but not selling that many tickets.

It would be great to have the Sky Greece service, due to the general lack of nonstops from the USA. However, JFK/YUL/YYZ are a bit redundant,as mentioned---in each of these markets, there are two competitors, whereas out of ORD there would be a monopoly. It would have been better to pick DTW/BOS/IAD instead of the other three, for the same reason.

And with Sky Greece being a new carrier, they won't have ticketing/baggage agreements, with either US carriers or Greek domestic carriers. Which like Southwest and charter flights, this will be problematic.......and will need extra time to claim/recheck bags. Kind of negates some of the benefit.

That would not happen at AA or UA, who have agreements, and have domestic online feed-in.


User currently offlinecrazyguineapig From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16561 times:

Freshside: Impressed by your knowledge of Albanian/Greek diasporas in St. Louis which I did not know existed in the area. In a nutshell, the ATH-JFK market will not only serve tourists and Greek diaspora but also neighboring diasporas (if connections and logistics are taken care of even to a minimal degree). As for alternative airports such as BOS, DTW, and IAD, I would say IAD would be the most interesting alternative as it is a "diplomatic" hub from which government workers and contractors have to fly to almost every country in the world several times a year. As a person who lives close by I know a handful of people who would use an IAD-ATH flight.

Overall, I was not disappointed by their Facebook page. Already 1,000+ fans, and the guy writing the statuses actually knows how to write English well. Give them credit for trying to change the mundane hegemony of options in the transatlantic market, right guys?

I believe the real reason why they got A340s and not 763s is not because they're "ignorant" of the fuel statistics, rather I think its likely that it is easier to hire pilots in Greece with A340 licenses as opposed to ones with 767 licenses given that no Greek airline ever employed pilots for flying the 767 to my knowledge.

[Edited 2012-11-29 22:36:01]

[Edited 2012-11-29 22:41:59]

User currently offlineskyduster From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 16494 times:

I just think the diaspora factor is far overstated. As you stated yourself [Freshside], OA once had Chicago flights via JFK, and that didn't last long. Chicago has a sizeable Greek population, but it's not that big, and neither is New York's for that matter (even if it may feel quite Greek in Astoria and maybe some pockets in Long Island and Jersey). And outside New York, Chicago, Boston, and Tampa, it drops significantly. St Louis is a large enough city to have flights to destinations outside the Midwest, such as Toronto and New York. Detroit definitely has flights to CDG (via DL and AF) and FRA (LH), let alone PHL, YYZ, and NYC. Folks from Los Angeles have even more options than Detroit. Angelinos can connect in YYZ, YUL, NYC, PHL, LHR, MAD, AMS, ZRH, IST, FCO...

What you say about destinations within Greece beyond ATH makes a lot of sense. I'm sure plenty of Greek-Americans would love to fly into HER and SKG with as few connections as possible...of course, those airports do have regular service to the major European hubs. You can easily fly ORD-FRA-HER or LAX-FRA-HER with Lufthansa/Aegean...you can fly ORD/LAX-FRA-SKG with Lufthansa/Aegean...you can also go to RHO from FRA, but I doubt very many diaspora folks are headed to RHO in the first place. The Dodecanese Islands make up only about 2% of the country's population, so it's pretty safe to assume that not many diaspora folks are from there. RHO is only a very busy airport because of tourism, and -to a lesser extent- being an island, making automobile travel between Rhodes and the mainland (or other islands) not possible.

Of course, none of this necessarily means that there's no room for Skygreece. But in order to succeed, they'd have to also offer a domestic network, or offer code-share service with a domestic airline (OA? HER-based Sky Express?) or -even better- Aegean which would allow passengers the option of flying to, say, TLV, or LCA, or BAH, or CAI, or DOH via ATH. If you're headed from ORD or LAX to RHO...sure, you can buy separate itineraries on two different airlines that don't work together in any way, and check in again at ATH, but only hardcore travelers do that. Grandma won't do that.

They're just not going to survive on the diaspora strategy. No one ever does. Old OA's flights to Australia were loss-making ventures.

All that being said, I do believe that demand for general Americans (as well as Canadians) traveling to Greece will increase steadily in the coming years, especially with the fantastic growth in the Mediterranean cruise sector that's going on (with Greece playing a significant role in that)...and who loves all-inclusive cruises? Americans do. In fact, the number of Americans visiting Greece has been on the rise. But again, let's not kid ourselves. Long-distance nationalities like Americans, Canadians, Chinese, etc...while certainly visiting Greece in growing numbers, it's a very steady growth. The fastest growth is actually coming from eastern and central Europe (there's been fantastic growth in visitors from Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania), as well as some western European countries that were not traditional markets for Greece, such as France and Spain (especially France from where there's been fantastic growth in recent years).



mostly lurker, very rare poster
User currently offlinespiplane From UK - England, joined Jan 2005, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16336 times:
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One of the Hellenic Imperial (or Gulf Air in Hellenic Imperial cs) was seen in Singapore last July.

A pity they are not going to be used by Hellenic, but good to hear they may find a place with a new airline!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Spijkers




A380 fan
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16327 times:

I hope they are a success but I somehow don't see how the ATH market can support both QR and this new airline where OA and Hellenic failed.


Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinepilotanthony From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16183 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 20):

OA did not fail...



Anthony Paraschou
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16124 times:

Quoting pilotanthony (Reply 21):
OA did not fail...

Well, it was ultimately closed down because it was losing too much money so yes, it did fail.

Secondly, I was referring to the long haul operations that Skygreece Airlines wish to commence and OA did fail in making its long haul network profitable- New York was cancelled and not resumed by Olympic Air



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinemitris From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16045 times:

Quoting pilotanthony (Reply 21):
OA did not fail...

Agreed!

The ATH-JFK route was always a success. It was the government's bad management that brought Olympic Airways to an end. Thank God OA it is now a private airline, and the name Olympic never got lost.


User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15959 times:

OA was badly managed but was a great airline. I flew them many many times to Lebanon via Athens- this was at the old airport. When we were waiting for our connecting flights, my family and I would walk out of the airport and to the beach and go swimming. The service was really nice- great food and crew, old A340s and 737-200s onwards to Beirut.

However, the airline really was unprofitable due to this mis management- it reflects the whole view of the economy in Greece. A lot of corruption, a lot of people on the pay roll who weren't actually doing anything.

The OA ground services was always very profitable and made more money for the airline that their actual operations.

I just don't think that two airlines can be sustained on that route, not with the economy as it is there



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinepilotanthony From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16054 times:

I say again OA did not fail ANY of its routes, and the airline itself did NOT fail. It was poorly managed and the Greek government was losing money and sold it which is why it ceased operations, then MIG stepped in and made Olympic Air


Anthony Paraschou
User currently offlineAquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 252 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15891 times:

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 15):
I don't know why they want to use 343s I think it's the low cost. But wouldn't 763ERs be a better choice? Do they have the legs for the routes they're planning?
Quoting crazyguineapig (Reply 17):
I believe the real reason why they got A340s and not 763s is not because they're "ignorant" of the fuel statistics, rather I think its likely that it is easier to hire pilots in Greece with A340 licenses as opposed to ones with 767 licenses given that no Greek airline ever employed pilots for flying the 767 to my knowledge.
Quoting mitris (Reply 10):
believe QR will be do just fine. It's not a start up airline, it is profitable, and the B787 will be a very efficient aircraft compared to the A340-300 that SkyGreece Airlines is planning to operate.



The A340 is not completely useless as many here like to believe. And cannot be replaced with any given smaller bird you can find.
The real question is only if they can fill their A340. If they can, I doubt that the above mentioned Aircrafts can do much better in terms of CASM or even more less so on cost per passenger considering the probably risible cost of acquisition of those birds.

Even according to the A.net mantra the A340 "killer" must be something like a 777.



chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
User currently offlineSKGSJULAX From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 15395 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting pilotanthony (Reply 25):
I say again OA did not fail ANY of its routes, and the airline itself did NOT fail.

I am not sure what the distinction is that you are attempting to make.

Quoting skyduster (Reply 18):
All that being said, I do believe that demand for general Americans (as well as Canadians) traveling to Greece will increase steadily in the coming years, especially with the fantastic growth in the Mediterranean cruise sector that's going on (with Greece playing a significant role in that)...and who loves all-inclusive cruises? Americans do.

Your overall analysis is very compelling and underlines the challenges this new venture is facing. The cruise market is seasonal, and Delta, US, and Qatar (maybe even United again in the summer) have plenty of capacity on the JFK-ATH route (full loads both ways on my six recent flights to Greece). Now that the seasonal routes have stopped for the winter, it is possible that an airline can make a living if they operated smaller aircraft; the challenge is that there aren't many alternatives for what is basically a long-ish but very thin route during the low season. The A340 is way too big, no matter how low the acquisition costs might be. That's the reason HIA didn't make it also: they put too much capacity on the route.



Omnium curiositatum explorator
User currently offlineKonstantinos From Greece, joined Jun 2001, 389 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 15229 times:

Well what can I say. Some people can be very adventurous in such difficult times. I hope the airline takes off and succeeds. It will be very difficult in these times. They could have chosen a more economical aircraft as to be able to compete all year round.
I know if I had to do it my choice in this time of days would have to be an A321 (2 class about 185 seats) with a refuling stopover in the UK.

For example:

Athens – London Gatwick – Montreal – Toronto (Daily)
And
Athens – Manchester – New York – Chicago (Daily)

With only 185 seats to worry about I know I can most likely fill them up on a daily basis to both the UK and North America. But then again that’s me and I’m no expert.


User currently offlinekyrone From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 15194 times:

I thought the deadline for ORD for S13 had already passed.....

User currently offlineAquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 252 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 15158 times:

Quoting Konstantinos (Reply 28):
know if I had to do it my choice in this time of days would have to be an A321 (2 class about 185 seats) with a refuling stopover in the UK.



For that you would need possibly the latest revisions of the 321 if not a NEO and still I am not sure with adverse winds if you gonna make it . So new stuff will probably cost you more than a 15 year old 340 regardless availability. Of course if your name would be EZ or AB then the story is different.

If (BIG IF) you can fill it , even with couple of flights a week frequency the 340 choice would not be that bad for your economics, and offer a FAR better trip experience to your customers.



chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
User currently offlineKonstantinos From Greece, joined Jun 2001, 389 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 15098 times:

Aquila3, can you not make it with the A321 on London Gatwick to Montreal and on Manchester to New York? Even with a 2 class configuration of 185 passengers?

User currently offlineTIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15010 times:

I wish them all the luck, but I fail to see how they will make it work with no connections and in these times.

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 16):
People in the diaspora would go more often if it wasn't a hassle. Price is really not the reason why people don't go every year.

Huhhh???? It's VFR traffic. Price is by FAR the main determining factor. You think that someone going from South Bend to Crete will go less often because the extra connection in FRA will add another couple of hours to a flight that takes overall 20? We are not talking about business people who must get there at 8am, or they will miss that 10am meeting. We are talking about the most flexible (schedule wise) group of travelers, especially when in the grand scheme of things a couple of extra hours are nothing.

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 16):
A good portion of the STL Greeks are connected with Ioannina, which is in the western aprt of the mainland.

In which case, it probably makes sense for them to completely skip ATH and take a flight from one of the many airports in Europe to CFU in Summer and then the ferry to Igoumenitsa, a short drive away from Ioannina.

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 16):
STL also has a large Albanian contingent, too. There will never be nonstops from the USA to Albania(even from NYC), so there is large dependence on Italy/Greece connections.

Well, there have been scheduled non-stop charters in the past from JFK, so I don't know about your statement. But that is beyond the point. People flying US-Albania are not going to connect in ATH, when there are much better alternatives in FCO, VIE, MUC or MXP. The only way that a connection in ATH will work is if the price is extra competitive. And I fail to see how flying STL-ORD-ATH-TIA is going to be competitive price wise, when one would need to buy three separate tickets and the flight itself would reduce neither the number of connections, nor the total flown distance.

Quoting pilotanthony (Reply 25):
I say again OA did not fail ANY of its routes, and the airline itself did NOT fail.

What's you definition of failing? Not being an economically viable entity is the DEFINITION of failing. According to you not a single company has failed in the past, because they have only been mismanaged.


User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14900 times:

Quoting Konstantinos (Reply 31):

Aquila3, can you not make it with the A321 on London Gatwick to Montreal and on Manchester to New York? Even with a 2 class configuration of 185 passengers?

Nope. Way too far. You'd most likely have to opt for something like ATH-SNN-YQX-YUL-YYZ. Not very attractive or efficient.



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineAquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 252 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14826 times:

Quoting Konstantinos (Reply 31):
Aquila3, can you not make it with the A321 on London Gatwick to Montreal and on Manchester to New York? Even with a 2 class configuration of 185 passengers?

As I said, basically the answer is NO.
You would need at least another stopby (Gander?). But that routing would bring us back at the beginning of the modern Aviation.
The reality is that is not THAT simple to conveniently replace the old A340 with a smaller bird.



chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
User currently offlineFreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days ago) and read 14442 times:

Quoting TIA (Reply 32):
Well, there have been scheduled non-stop charters in the past from JFK, so I don't know about your statement.

I should have said SCHEDULED non-stop service.......sorry about that.....I should have been more clear....

Quoting Konstantinos (Reply 28):
I know if I had to do it my choice in this time of days would have to be an A321 (2 class about 185 seats) with a refuling stopover in the UK.

It is certainly possible, though not the preferred way. Currently, some US carriers use 757s(not exactly made for this type of flying) for London and Paris trips. And of course, they can handle UK-Greece no problem. But there has been a bit of a consumer backlash on using the small planes for these types of routes. United's Dulles to AMS and CDG trips, for example, have been plagued by weight restrictions and/or unscheduled fuel stops, which have generated a lot of complaints.....

Quoting skyduster (Reply 18):
All that being said, I do believe that demand for general Americans (as well as Canadians) traveling to Greece will increase steadily in the coming years,

A few things are changing in Greece, and oddly enough, sports. One reason why Greece gets bypassed as a business destination, is the general lack of golf. Many business deals are done over golf, and this is why there are few conventions there. For many men, around the world golf is life. If there is no golf there, they don't bother going. I had a cousin, who went to Greece as a child a couple of times....but as an adult, never went, right until the day he died. Why? "There's no golf. Why should I go there?".

There is one world-class golf course in Costa Navarino in Messinia. Plus another one being under construction as part of the Ritz-Carlton Hotel near Sitia, Crete. Also, snow skiing---the best-kept secret in Greece---has recenly been promoted by Aegean Air.


User currently offlineFreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 14396 times:

Quoting skyduster (Reply 18):
The Dodecanese Islands make up only about 2% of the country's population, so it's pretty safe to assume that not many diaspora folks are from there

I was using SBN-RHO as an example. (The big market for the dodecanese in the US is Florida, not Indiana). But there are other like combinations of routings.......Grand Rapids to Chios typically is GRR-DL-DTW-DL-AMS-KL-ATH-OA-JKH.........and the list goes on and on......

Quoting skyduster (Reply 18):
As you stated yourself [Freshside], OA once had Chicago flights via JFK, and that didn't last long.

I'm not sure if your read the quote completely, but I will say it again.......New Yorkers also had the option to buy the seats, as well. There are more New Yorkers than Chicagoans, so the more seats were sold much quicker in the local NYC market, before people in Chicago could buy them. It was a bad idea to begin with. To be viable, it had to be either non-stop to Greece, or via some other station besides JFK.

Boston had a similar situation. Except that they at least had one of the two trips not involving JFK.

Quoting Konstantinos (Reply 31):
In which case, it probably makes sense for them to completely skip ATH and take a flight from one of the many airports in Europe to CFU in Summer and then the ferry to Igoumenitsa, a short drive away from Ioannina.

Yes, that is true....however, all of the flights from Europe to Corfu are on charters, and/or low-cost carriers. Not only problems with bags, but also with irregular ops......any misconnection or cancellation may be a problem. Extra time must be planned into this if you are going this route, especially when coming from America or Canada.

However, another option not often taken is to go to one of the Italian hubs, and then fly on scheduled carriers to Bari/Brindisi/Ancona, and take a boat from there.


User currently offlineFreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 14391 times:

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 7):
Thats the most obvious Photoshop job I've ever seen. The top of the last E in "GREECE" is in midair. Really poor effort by whoever did this, 4/10. Airfleets.net records SX-DFA as being an Olympic registered A340-300, no mention of SkyGreece.

The person that initially post this photo---originally on a Greek news forum-----did admit it they did the photoshop.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 26):
The A340 is not completely useless as many here like to believe. And cannot be replaced with any given smaller bird you can find.
The real question is only if they can fill their A340. If they can, I doubt that the above mentioned Aircrafts can do much better in terms of CASM or even more less so on cost per passenger considering the probably risible cost of acquisition of those birds.

Basically, the cost of operating an A-340 is expensive, but buying one is cheap, relatively speaking. Same thing as buying a car---a bit of a trade-off.......do you buy a five-year-old Lincoln Continental for cheap, or a brand new Toyota Corolla, which is more expensive---but costs less for gas??


User currently offlineFreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 13440 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 24):
I just don't think that two airlines can be sustained on that route, not with the economy as it is there

It will work seasonally, in fact, possibly a third non-daily trip will work on the NYC-ATH market. But certainly not year-round.

Quoting crazyguineapig (Reply 17):
Overall, I was not disappointed by their Facebook page. Already 1,000+ fans, and the guy writing the statuses actually knows how to write English well. Give them credit for trying to change the mundane hegemony of options in the transatlantic market, right guys?

The C.O.O. happens to be a pilot, and pilots that fly international have to know English.....at least in the context of their job.

Quoting crazyguineapig (Reply 17):
I believe the real reason why they got A340s and not 763s is not because they're "ignorant" of the fuel statistics, rather I think its likely that it is easier to hire pilots in Greece with A340 licenses as opposed to ones with 767 licenses given that no Greek airline ever employed pilots for flying the 767 to my knowledge.

OA did have a 767 leased for about a month(29 June-22 July of 2005, tail number PH-MCV)but it was a "wet lease" and no OA pilots were trained for it.

Currently owned by ILFC and leased to Blue Panorama, who's had it since 2009, under the new tail number EI-EED.


User currently offlineFly2yyz From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1039 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 13441 times:

A decent number of their exec board comes from YUL. I wonder if they will push it as one of their first destinations.

User currently offlineFreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 13429 times:

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 39):
A decent number of their exec board comes from YUL. I wonder if they will push it as one of their first destinations.

If you look at the list of city ticket offices, you will notice Chicago is not on there yet. So, ORD obviously has a lower priority than the other three cities. Then you have Qatar coming into JFK. Your statement about the board members being from YUL.....combined with the other two factors, logically points to YUL being the first choice.....


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