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PR Begins MNL-YYZ!  
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2685 posts, RR: 11
Posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8382 times:

As it is already past midnight in MNL, it is today that PR will begin 3 weekly B77W service non-stop to YYZ. The return flight is routed via YVR.

PR118 becomes the 7th longest flight in the world, at 13230 km, placing just behind QF8, DFW-BNE. Pretty impressive for an airline that doesn't even serve Europe anymore.

Also, based on PR's timetables, certain days in January are already planned with a stop-over in YVR both ways. Is that due to an aircraft sub?

Thenoflyzone


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline9w748capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 627 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8381 times:

Wow, good luck to them. Can't be easy to make a profit on these types of routes nowadays. And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2685 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8349 times:

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Most likely. If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

As you said, good luck to them !

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7817 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8334 times:

Wow, thats a long one.

They certainly wont have a problem filling the plane. The market is massive.

That said I would be mystified if they made a dime on a route like that.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8306 times:

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
Wow, good luck to them. Can't be easy to make a profit on these types of routes nowadays. And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Why would you say that? Can't there be enough people flying between MNL and YYZ in the front to justify the flight? Just because they are coming from the Philippians, doesn't mean they can't afford the airfare. I have traveled the world and found most places have a large population of people who have the means to afford to travel in the front of the airplane.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2242 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8219 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):
I have traveled the world and found most places have a large population of people who have the means to afford to travel in the front of the airplane.

Yes, if the fares are cheap. Somehow I doubt that in an EXTREMELY price-sensitive market like the Philippines, a large portion of the traveling public are willing to pay higher fares to cover the costs of operating a flight such as this one.

Air India is a perfect example of this: their long-haul routes to the US boost high load factors, but these routes alone (ORD, JFK and EWR) account for FORTY PERCENT of its annual losses. AI almost always undercuts the competition on US-India amid all three classes of services.

PR suffers from other competitive disadvantages other than price-elastic consumers: lack of participation in a major global alliance, inefficient/high cost base, and small domestic operation (largely ceded to Cebu over the years) to feed its international trunk routes.

Honestly, I see this entirely as a pre-emptive move against 5J, which is gearing up to launch long-haul services, and Canada is definitely high on their list for initial routes. PR can outmaneuver them with market entrenchment, brand-awareness, and range capability on the 777-300ER, which Cebu cannot do without 1-stop on the A330.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineflyingdoc787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7996 times:

Quote:
If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

PAL doesn't fly to Europe because they are not allowed to by the civil aviation authorities. IF they could, they would, and with the proper timings and marketing, they can make it work!

As for the YYZ route - I agree that this is probably a "muscle flexing" move against 5J. In any case, good to see PAL expanding to a new destination.

Now if only the Philippines can be allowed to introduce new flights into the USA (they're still having problems being certified), I would love to see them back in New York, and perhaps Chicago. Will San Diego ever happen?

On a sad note, they are dropping LAS early next year.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7779 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):
Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
Wow, good luck to them. Can't be easy to make a profit on these types of routes nowadays. And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Why would you say that? Can't there be enough people flying between MNL and YYZ in the front to justify the flight? Just because they are coming from the Philippines, doesn't mean they can't afford the airfare. I have traveled the world and found most places have a large population of people who have the means to afford to travel in the front of the airplane.

There's definitely much less high-yield traffic to/from the Philippines than most other Asian markets. That's always been a problem for PR. And you can't judge what fares are being paid by looking at loads in the premium classes. They may be upgrades from overbooked Y class passengers, non-rev staff, frequent flyer redemptions etc. PR is also less likely to attract premium class traffic due to not being an alliance member.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7769 times:

Quoting flyingdoc787 (Reply 6):
Quote:
If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

PAL doesn't fly to Europe because they are not allowed to by the civil aviation authorities. IF they could, they would, and with the proper timings and marketing, they can make it work!

PR had dropped their Europe routes long before carriers based in the Philippines were added to the EU's banned list. Their Europe routes were very unprofitable when they were last operated.


User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 796 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7759 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

As flyingdoc787 already mentioned PAL is not allowed to fly into european airspace (unless it´s a "presidential" flight)
Actually all philippine carriers are on the EU black list - so the ban is not limited to PAL btw.

Quoting flyingdoc787 (Reply 6):
Now if only the Philippines can be allowed to introduce new flights into the USA (they're still having problems being certified), I would love to see them back in New York, and perhaps Chicago. Will San Diego ever happen?

I don´t see any changes with the U.S. routes because the FAA is unlikely to restore Cat I status anytime soon.
Which means that all OPS to the U.S. are still "frozen" (no additional routes and no equipment changes permitted).

Although it sounds exciting that PR starts a non-stop MNL-YYZ this seems more like a desperate decision ...
PR had ordered B777´s and Boeing insists that PR takes them all - but PR desperately searches for routes they can use them for under the current restrictions for philippine carriers.
The B 777 were intended mainly for expansion on the U.S. market but PAL is not allowed to replace the B 744 and the A340 due to FAA cat II.
Since Canada does not fall under FAA jurisdiction there´s are at least a few possible (viable???) destinations left for PR´s B777 - go figure ...



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1451 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7708 times:

Someone mentioned that the plane would be light up-front which wouldn't necessarily be the case if PR marketed themselves well in N. America for J-class service to MNL. There's a lot of J-class traffic from N. America to MNL but PR's lack of Alliance hurts them big time to have a piece of that pie. I fly to MNL a lot for work...or rather I used to but I wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole even though they were aways much cheaper.


If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineiflypal From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 69 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7405 times:

Looks to me like Philippine Airlines is going to Toronto daily effective March 10

From Timetable posted on philippineairlines.com

For 10 to 30 Mar 2013 For 10 to 30 Mar 2013

PR 116 via Vancouver Mo-Tu-Th-Sa 14:30 20:30 PR 119 We-Fr-Su 20:00 05:10 +2
PR 118 We-Fr-Su 15:00 18:00 PR 117 Mo-Tu-Th-Sa 22:30 07:40 +2


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6200 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7390 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):
Why would you say that?

Low yields!!



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 752 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6304 times:

here is a pretty dam good indication of why the Philipinos do not really pay much to fly up front, go to many of the asian airlines that offer a good F or J such as SQ or CX, price out HKG, SIN-LAX and MNL-LAX for F or J, odds are very likely there will be a significant difference in price (I believe Siri lanka this phenomenon occurs, priced columbo to SYD and could get F tickets for 4K equivilant distance flights are easily 3x that in F.
My thoughts is this will not last long or they will keep it for prestige. Will there be much of a weight penalty.

The other thing to consider is that even if you fill the J cabin with 2K fares, that is still going at a loss.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2242 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6097 times:

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 10):

Someone mentioned that the plane would be light up-front which wouldn't necessarily be the case if PR marketed themselves well in N. America for J-class service to MNL. There's a lot of J-class traffic from N. America to MNL but PR's lack of Alliance hurts them big time to have a piece of that pie. I fly to MNL a lot for work...or rather I used to but I wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole even though they were aways much cheaper.

If you look at the GCM, the routing from most US city pairs to MNL routes RIGHT over NRT.

On my NH flights from NRT to MNL last month, the plane was basically packed full of connecting traffic onto UA, NH and AC flights to and from NRT to Canada and the US. I was in J on several of those sectors and the fares are very competitive on Star, although my NRT trsfr experience was pretty terrible, I must say.

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 13):
My thoughts is this will not last long or they will keep it for prestige. Will there be much of a weight penalty.

I'd suspect moreso the latter.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14140 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6054 times:

Quoting MHG (Reply 9):
As flyingdoc787 already mentioned PAL is not allowed to fly into european airspace (unless it´s a "presidential" flight)
Actually all philippine carriers are on the EU black list - so the ban is not limited to PAL btw.

Actually the three big carriers (Philippine Airways, Cebu Pacific and Airphil Express) are not directly targeted by EASA, but they are being banned to create pressure on the Philippine aviation authority to get their act together.
The problem is the massive corruption within the authority.
I just returned from a stay in the Philippines a few days ago. While I was there I read several articles in reputable local newspapers (Daily Inquirer, Manila Bulletin) about unregistered aircraft (or aircraft with fake registration numbers) flying in the Philippines while being completely ignored by the authorities (if the owner of the plane does not bother to get it registered, you can bet that he won´t bother about proper maintenance or insurance either). Another item was a crash of a light twin, in which a senator got killed. It turned out that the aircraft was illegally maintained, using bogus parts and the maintenance facility was not approved for the type of maintenance carried out (which caused one engine to fail) and that the pilot, though "certified flight instructor" and owner of a flying school, was not capable of carrying out a single engine landing (he went below minimum single engine speed and crashed the plane, among other mistakes, like not returning to his airport of origin, CEB, which has the longest and widest runway in the region and capable rescue forces, instead he continued to the provincial airfield of Naga). The authority came under fire because one of their inspectors signed the airworthiness release for the aircraft, even though the maintenance was dodgy.
I agree that most of these acts involve general aviation aircraft and that the big Filipino airlines keep a high standard, at least I never felt unsafe on their aicraft and from what I could see, their maintenance and operations seemed to be ok.

Jan


User currently offlineairontario From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 563 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6015 times:

Will they be operating in to terminal 3 at YYZ?

User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2685 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5971 times:

Quoting airontario (Reply 16):
Will they be operating in to terminal 3 at YYZ?

yes.



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineflightsimboy From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1344 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5859 times:
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She's on her way but the weather is just terrible. Was so excited to go out and see it arrive...not with the weather like today!! (It was even worse the day the ET 787 made it's inaugural flight)

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5772 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Most likely. If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

As you said, good luck to them !

Thenoflyzone
Quoting as739x (Reply 12):
Low yields!

Good luck to them, I hope that it works. Although, there are probably more people living in North America of Philippine dissent than in Europe being they are a former US colony.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineflightsimboy From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1344 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5767 times:
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16 hours 42 minutes   

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8347/8233575066_ddb4845c9f_b.jpg

I had no idea the 77W could do that....the 772LR yes!!


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5725 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 19):
Good luck to them, I hope that it works. Although, there are probably more people living in North America of Philippine descent than in Europe being they are a former US colony.

Not sure about the US but the Philippines has recently been the largest source of immigrants to Canada. Can't find 2011 data but in 2010 it was #1. Following Canadian government data for the year 2010. Almost exactly 100 immigrants every day from the Philippines.


Rank Country Number Percentage
1 Philippines 36,578 13.0%
2 India 30,252 10.8%
3 People’s Republic of China 30,197 10.8%
4 United Kingdom 9,499 3.4%
5 United States of America 9,243 3.3%
6 France 6,934 2.5%
7 Iran 6,815 2.4%
8 United Arab Emirates 6,796 2.4%
9 Morocco 5,946 2.1%
10 Republic of Korea 5,539 2.0%
Total Top 10 147,799 52.7%
All Other Source Countries 132,882 47.3%
TOTAL 280,681 100.0%
Source: Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Facts and Figures 2010.


User currently offlinepolaris From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5702 times:

The first flight has arrived in Toronto.

User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1451 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5542 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 14):
On my NH flights from NRT to MNL last month, the plane was basically packed full of connecting traffic onto UA, NH and AC flights to and from NRT to Canada and the US. I was in J on several of those sectors and the fares are very competitive on Star, although my NRT trsfr experience was pretty terrible, I must say.

NRT transfers are terrible, I've had a bad experience the 4-5 times I've done it. When I used to fly SFO-MNL quite a bit for business, I preferred OZ via ICN because I am a Star Alliance buff but you're right, prices were pretty competitive. I flew SQ too a couple of times but that adds quite some time to the trip since I mostly did SFO-ICN-SIN-MNL. I've even tried CX, JL and DL on J and although CX was good, nothing beats OZ o Star Alliance unless willing to spend the extra time on the more expensive SQ. I flew PAL once MNL-SFO non-stop on F and never again, I'll take the lay-over any day.



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5225 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5487 times:

Quoting MHG (Reply 9):
I don´t see any changes with the U.S. routes because the FAA is unlikely to restore Cat I status anytime soon

I can't believe the Canadian regulators are a push over but they must have very good reasons to see it different than those in the USA.


25 sunrisevalley : Generally a bit more than a typical EK DXB-LAX flight. If the 8383sm ( 7285nm) is correct the average cruise was about 446k rather slow for an eastbo
26 Akiestar : 42 J/328 Y. Not that heavy in the back, but if I'm not mistaken PR is looking onto connecting traffic onto points in the eastern United States as wel
27 JAGflyer : I was discussing the new start up with a Phillipino friend of mine. He says that the cost to fly PR is generally much higher (non-stop/direct) than sa
28 United Airline : Why can't they fly to Europe? What happened?
29 kevin : PR will operate MNL-YVR-YYZ. Do they have 5th freedom rights on the YVR-YYZ sector?
30 Post contains links thenoflyzone : See reply 15. Pretty much sums it up. That time is wrong. Flightaware departed the flight 1h30 ahead of schedule for some reason. The flight is 15h 0
31 Post contains links thenoflyzone : First of all, that is not 5th freedom, but rather 8th freedom, and NO. Outside of the EU (where EU airlines from country A have the rights for local
32 sunrisevalley : Thanks for spotting this error . This is better, average cruise of ~491k.
33 Norcal773 : This was back in 07 on a 744. Cool thing about it was PacMan was on the same flight in F and I got to chat with him.. very cool guy. If they have a d
34 MarcoPoloWorld : This 8th-freedom-less circle routing makes very little sense, but then again, so does alot of what the Philippine carriers are doing, and especially P
35 thenoflyzone : PR has no choice in the matter. They are limited by the number of landing rights Canada grants them. As for the westbound not being non-stop, again,
36 Post contains links Akiestar : They did, and there's a virtual tour of the refurbished 744 on PAL's website. http://www1.philippineairlines.com/f...hts/during/mabuhay-class-interio
37 Post contains images Norcal773 : Ooh nice, way better than what their F used to look like. Now, if only they'd join an Alliance
38 Post contains links Akiestar : MNL-YYZ will actually become daily starting next month: three times direct (eastbound at least; the return will still be via YVR) and four times as a
39 Viscount724 : Also Australian carriers in New Zealand and vice versa. There have been a few other excreptions in the past. Two or three carriers had rights (and ma
40 MarcoPoloWorld : Ok. Thanks guys.
41 qblue : So last night 2Dec there was two PR aircraft at YVR A340 and B777 what up with that. Just great to see love the colours
42 Byrdluvs747 : I know that PR isn't allowed to codeshare with AA in the US, but can they codeshare with LA via LAX for traffic to South America? Also, Why did the JN
43 Akiestar : They could, but I was imagining that given all the expansion, they could open new markets in the process. I know PR intends to start Brazil service a
44 Byrdluvs747 : I was asking based on the terminated routes listed in wikipedia. Ironically, to serve GIG/GRU effectively PR would most likely route via JNB rather t
45 Post contains links Devilfish : Sorry if a bit OT...but while MNL-JNB-GIG is indeed the shortest one-stop routing, MNL-JED-GIG may be more commercially viable if the new bilateral w
46 Byrdluvs747 : How much value is there in JED-GIG, and what value would Brazil gain in allowing it? A deep codeshare/JV with LAN?
47 Devilfish : The value is in the first leg subsidizing the second...and what chump change merchantmen could bring in between JED-GIG/GRU. The same question one co
48 Viscount724 : On Sunday, the schedule shows 2 PR flights YVR-MNL leaving 10 minutes apart, the A340 that operates LAS-YVR-MNL at 2330 and the 77W that operates YYZ
49 thenoflyzone : So the 77W, with a faster cruise speed, must surely be able to land before the A340 in MNL. Thenoflyzone
50 ytz : I would think that the 77L would be much more appropriate for this route. Does PR have a cargo business at all? Seems to me, that they are only plann
51 Viscount724 : Correct. Schedule block time 14:35 for the A343 and 14:15 for the 77W. Not a very significant difference on a 5,706 nm sector.
52 Post contains images Devilfish : I would venture that PR like their 77Ws very much.....just not when they couldn't use those where they intended. Pardon me, but I don't think PR woul
53 ytz : That's the problem isn't it. The suggestion was half-made in jest. But really, PR would be better off with 77Ls for this route. And AI would be bette
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