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PR Begins MNL-YYZ!  
User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2383 posts, RR: 12
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8203 times:

As it is already past midnight in MNL, it is today that PR will begin 3 weekly B77W service non-stop to YYZ. The return flight is routed via YVR.

PR118 becomes the 7th longest flight in the world, at 13230 km, placing just behind QF8, DFW-BNE. Pretty impressive for an airline that doesn't even serve Europe anymore.

Also, based on PR's timetables, certain days in January are already planned with a stop-over in YVR both ways. Is that due to an aircraft sub?

Thenoflyzone


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline9w748capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 554 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8202 times:

Wow, good luck to them. Can't be easy to make a profit on these types of routes nowadays. And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2383 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8170 times:

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Most likely. If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

As you said, good luck to them !

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7499 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8155 times:

Wow, thats a long one.

They certainly wont have a problem filling the plane. The market is massive.

That said I would be mystified if they made a dime on a route like that.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4125 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8127 times:

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
Wow, good luck to them. Can't be easy to make a profit on these types of routes nowadays. And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Why would you say that? Can't there be enough people flying between MNL and YYZ in the front to justify the flight? Just because they are coming from the Philippians, doesn't mean they can't afford the airfare. I have traveled the world and found most places have a large population of people who have the means to afford to travel in the front of the airplane.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2163 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8040 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):
I have traveled the world and found most places have a large population of people who have the means to afford to travel in the front of the airplane.

Yes, if the fares are cheap. Somehow I doubt that in an EXTREMELY price-sensitive market like the Philippines, a large portion of the traveling public are willing to pay higher fares to cover the costs of operating a flight such as this one.

Air India is a perfect example of this: their long-haul routes to the US boost high load factors, but these routes alone (ORD, JFK and EWR) account for FORTY PERCENT of its annual losses. AI almost always undercuts the competition on US-India amid all three classes of services.

PR suffers from other competitive disadvantages other than price-elastic consumers: lack of participation in a major global alliance, inefficient/high cost base, and small domestic operation (largely ceded to Cebu over the years) to feed its international trunk routes.

Honestly, I see this entirely as a pre-emptive move against 5J, which is gearing up to launch long-haul services, and Canada is definitely high on their list for initial routes. PR can outmaneuver them with market entrenchment, brand-awareness, and range capability on the 777-300ER, which Cebu cannot do without 1-stop on the A330.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineflyingdoc787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7817 times:

Quote:
If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

PAL doesn't fly to Europe because they are not allowed to by the civil aviation authorities. IF they could, they would, and with the proper timings and marketing, they can make it work!

As for the YYZ route - I agree that this is probably a "muscle flexing" move against 5J. In any case, good to see PAL expanding to a new destination.

Now if only the Philippines can be allowed to introduce new flights into the USA (they're still having problems being certified), I would love to see them back in New York, and perhaps Chicago. Will San Diego ever happen?

On a sad note, they are dropping LAS early next year.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7600 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):
Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
Wow, good luck to them. Can't be easy to make a profit on these types of routes nowadays. And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Why would you say that? Can't there be enough people flying between MNL and YYZ in the front to justify the flight? Just because they are coming from the Philippines, doesn't mean they can't afford the airfare. I have traveled the world and found most places have a large population of people who have the means to afford to travel in the front of the airplane.

There's definitely much less high-yield traffic to/from the Philippines than most other Asian markets. That's always been a problem for PR. And you can't judge what fares are being paid by looking at loads in the premium classes. They may be upgrades from overbooked Y class passengers, non-rev staff, frequent flyer redemptions etc. PR is also less likely to attract premium class traffic due to not being an alliance member.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7590 times:

Quoting flyingdoc787 (Reply 6):
Quote:
If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

PAL doesn't fly to Europe because they are not allowed to by the civil aviation authorities. IF they could, they would, and with the proper timings and marketing, they can make it work!

PR had dropped their Europe routes long before carriers based in the Philippines were added to the EU's banned list. Their Europe routes were very unprofitable when they were last operated.


User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7580 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

As flyingdoc787 already mentioned PAL is not allowed to fly into european airspace (unless it´s a "presidential" flight)
Actually all philippine carriers are on the EU black list - so the ban is not limited to PAL btw.

Quoting flyingdoc787 (Reply 6):
Now if only the Philippines can be allowed to introduce new flights into the USA (they're still having problems being certified), I would love to see them back in New York, and perhaps Chicago. Will San Diego ever happen?

I don´t see any changes with the U.S. routes because the FAA is unlikely to restore Cat I status anytime soon.
Which means that all OPS to the U.S. are still "frozen" (no additional routes and no equipment changes permitted).

Although it sounds exciting that PR starts a non-stop MNL-YYZ this seems more like a desperate decision ...
PR had ordered B777´s and Boeing insists that PR takes them all - but PR desperately searches for routes they can use them for under the current restrictions for philippine carriers.
The B 777 were intended mainly for expansion on the U.S. market but PAL is not allowed to replace the B 744 and the A340 due to FAA cat II.
Since Canada does not fall under FAA jurisdiction there´s are at least a few possible (viable???) destinations left for PR´s B777 - go figure ...



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1446 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7529 times:

Someone mentioned that the plane would be light up-front which wouldn't necessarily be the case if PR marketed themselves well in N. America for J-class service to MNL. There's a lot of J-class traffic from N. America to MNL but PR's lack of Alliance hurts them big time to have a piece of that pie. I fly to MNL a lot for work...or rather I used to but I wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole even though they were aways much cheaper.


If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineiflypal From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 69 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7226 times:

Looks to me like Philippine Airlines is going to Toronto daily effective March 10

From Timetable posted on philippineairlines.com

For 10 to 30 Mar 2013 For 10 to 30 Mar 2013

PR 116 via Vancouver Mo-Tu-Th-Sa 14:30 20:30 PR 119 We-Fr-Su 20:00 05:10 +2
PR 118 We-Fr-Su 15:00 18:00 PR 117 Mo-Tu-Th-Sa 22:30 07:40 +2


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6098 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7211 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):
Why would you say that?

Low yields!!



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6125 times:

here is a pretty dam good indication of why the Philipinos do not really pay much to fly up front, go to many of the asian airlines that offer a good F or J such as SQ or CX, price out HKG, SIN-LAX and MNL-LAX for F or J, odds are very likely there will be a significant difference in price (I believe Siri lanka this phenomenon occurs, priced columbo to SYD and could get F tickets for 4K equivilant distance flights are easily 3x that in F.
My thoughts is this will not last long or they will keep it for prestige. Will there be much of a weight penalty.

The other thing to consider is that even if you fill the J cabin with 2K fares, that is still going at a loss.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2163 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5918 times:

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 10):

Someone mentioned that the plane would be light up-front which wouldn't necessarily be the case if PR marketed themselves well in N. America for J-class service to MNL. There's a lot of J-class traffic from N. America to MNL but PR's lack of Alliance hurts them big time to have a piece of that pie. I fly to MNL a lot for work...or rather I used to but I wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole even though they were aways much cheaper.

If you look at the GCM, the routing from most US city pairs to MNL routes RIGHT over NRT.

On my NH flights from NRT to MNL last month, the plane was basically packed full of connecting traffic onto UA, NH and AC flights to and from NRT to Canada and the US. I was in J on several of those sectors and the fares are very competitive on Star, although my NRT trsfr experience was pretty terrible, I must say.

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 13):
My thoughts is this will not last long or they will keep it for prestige. Will there be much of a weight penalty.

I'd suspect moreso the latter.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5875 times:

Quoting MHG (Reply 9):
As flyingdoc787 already mentioned PAL is not allowed to fly into european airspace (unless it´s a "presidential" flight)
Actually all philippine carriers are on the EU black list - so the ban is not limited to PAL btw.

Actually the three big carriers (Philippine Airways, Cebu Pacific and Airphil Express) are not directly targeted by EASA, but they are being banned to create pressure on the Philippine aviation authority to get their act together.
The problem is the massive corruption within the authority.
I just returned from a stay in the Philippines a few days ago. While I was there I read several articles in reputable local newspapers (Daily Inquirer, Manila Bulletin) about unregistered aircraft (or aircraft with fake registration numbers) flying in the Philippines while being completely ignored by the authorities (if the owner of the plane does not bother to get it registered, you can bet that he won´t bother about proper maintenance or insurance either). Another item was a crash of a light twin, in which a senator got killed. It turned out that the aircraft was illegally maintained, using bogus parts and the maintenance facility was not approved for the type of maintenance carried out (which caused one engine to fail) and that the pilot, though "certified flight instructor" and owner of a flying school, was not capable of carrying out a single engine landing (he went below minimum single engine speed and crashed the plane, among other mistakes, like not returning to his airport of origin, CEB, which has the longest and widest runway in the region and capable rescue forces, instead he continued to the provincial airfield of Naga). The authority came under fire because one of their inspectors signed the airworthiness release for the aircraft, even though the maintenance was dodgy.
I agree that most of these acts involve general aviation aircraft and that the big Filipino airlines keep a high standard, at least I never felt unsafe on their aicraft and from what I could see, their maintenance and operations seemed to be ok.

Jan


User currently offlineairontario From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5836 times:

Will they be operating in to terminal 3 at YYZ?

User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2383 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5792 times:

Quoting airontario (Reply 16):
Will they be operating in to terminal 3 at YYZ?

yes.



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineflightsimboy From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1236 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5680 times:
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She's on her way but the weather is just terrible. Was so excited to go out and see it arrive...not with the weather like today!! (It was even worse the day the ET 787 made it's inaugural flight)

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4125 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5593 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Most likely. If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

As you said, good luck to them !

Thenoflyzone
Quoting as739x (Reply 12):
Low yields!

Good luck to them, I hope that it works. Although, there are probably more people living in North America of Philippine dissent than in Europe being they are a former US colony.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineflightsimboy From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1236 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5588 times:
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16 hours 42 minutes   

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8347/8233575066_ddb4845c9f_b.jpg

I had no idea the 77W could do that....the 772LR yes!!


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5546 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 19):
Good luck to them, I hope that it works. Although, there are probably more people living in North America of Philippine descent than in Europe being they are a former US colony.

Not sure about the US but the Philippines has recently been the largest source of immigrants to Canada. Can't find 2011 data but in 2010 it was #1. Following Canadian government data for the year 2010. Almost exactly 100 immigrants every day from the Philippines.


Rank Country Number Percentage
1 Philippines 36,578 13.0%
2 India 30,252 10.8%
3 People’s Republic of China 30,197 10.8%
4 United Kingdom 9,499 3.4%
5 United States of America 9,243 3.3%
6 France 6,934 2.5%
7 Iran 6,815 2.4%
8 United Arab Emirates 6,796 2.4%
9 Morocco 5,946 2.1%
10 Republic of Korea 5,539 2.0%
Total Top 10 147,799 52.7%
All Other Source Countries 132,882 47.3%
TOTAL 280,681 100.0%
Source: Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Facts and Figures 2010.


User currently offlinepolaris From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1142 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5523 times:

The first flight has arrived in Toronto.

User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1446 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5363 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 14):
On my NH flights from NRT to MNL last month, the plane was basically packed full of connecting traffic onto UA, NH and AC flights to and from NRT to Canada and the US. I was in J on several of those sectors and the fares are very competitive on Star, although my NRT trsfr experience was pretty terrible, I must say.

NRT transfers are terrible, I've had a bad experience the 4-5 times I've done it. When I used to fly SFO-MNL quite a bit for business, I preferred OZ via ICN because I am a Star Alliance buff but you're right, prices were pretty competitive. I flew SQ too a couple of times but that adds quite some time to the trip since I mostly did SFO-ICN-SIN-MNL. I've even tried CX, JL and DL on J and although CX was good, nothing beats OZ o Star Alliance unless willing to spend the extra time on the more expensive SQ. I flew PAL once MNL-SFO non-stop on F and never again, I'll take the lay-over any day.



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4869 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5308 times:

Quoting MHG (Reply 9):
I don´t see any changes with the U.S. routes because the FAA is unlikely to restore Cat I status anytime soon

I can't believe the Canadian regulators are a push over but they must have very good reasons to see it different than those in the USA.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4869 posts, RR: 5
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5544 times:

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 20):
16 hours 42 minutes

Generally a bit more than a typical EK DXB-LAX flight. If the 8383sm ( 7285nm) is correct the average cruise was about 446k rather slow for an eastbound flight. This might be the longest ( in time) flight for a 77W.


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day ago) and read 5473 times:

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
Wow, good luck to them. Can't be easy to make a profit on these types of routes nowadays. And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

42 J/328 Y. Not that heavy in the back, but if I'm not mistaken PR is looking onto connecting traffic onto points in the eastern United States as well to fill up the planes.

Quoting flyingdoc787 (Reply 6):
On a sad note, they are dropping LAS early next year.

Not completely: they're looking at codeshares to replace PR-operated YVR-LAS.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
Another item was a crash of a light twin, in which a senator got killed

Not a senator: he was the Secretary of the Interior.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 19):
Although, there are probably more people living in North America of Philippine dissent than in Europe being they are a former US colony.

There are more Filipinos overall in western North America, but half of all Filipinos in Canada live in the east. Add onto that the large Filipino population of New York City (which this flight is supposedly targeting in the absence of direct MNL-NYC service due to Cat II), as well as the other communities in places like Montréal, Washington D.C. and Boston, and you'll get a pretty large, relatively affluent market to tap.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 23):
I flew PAL once MNL-SFO non-stop on F and never again, I'll take the lay-over any day.

When was this? PAL has been improving on trans-Pacific flights, as far as I've heard. Since you mentioned flying in F, I presume this was before 2009, when the 744s were all refurbished with nose-to-tail AVOD. I suggest giving them a try again.


User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3496 posts, RR: 4
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 5412 times:

I was discussing the new start up with a Phillipino friend of mine. He says that the cost to fly PR is generally much higher (non-stop/direct) than say going via ICN (KE), HKG (CX), or NRT (AC). Fares for MNL-MNL-MNL traffic.

[Edited 2012-12-01 00:39:27]


Support the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9160 posts, RR: 15
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 18 hours ago) and read 5303 times:

Why can't they fly to Europe? What happened?

User currently offlinekevin From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 1140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

PR will operate MNL-YVR-YYZ. Do they have 5th freedom rights on the YVR-YYZ sector?

User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2383 posts, RR: 12
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 28):
Why can't they fly to Europe? What happened?

See reply 15. Pretty much sums it up.

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 20):
16 hours 42 minutes

That time is wrong. Flightaware departed the flight 1h30 ahead of schedule for some reason. The flight is 15h 00 minutes based on official timetables. The inaugural flew 15h15 minutes.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 25):
Generally a bit more than a typical EK DXB-LAX flight. If the 8383sm ( 7285nm) is correct the average cruise was about 446k rather slow for an eastbound flight. This might be the longest ( in time) flight for a 77W.

PR118 has a block time of 15h00. As i mentioned, flightaware, for some unknown reason, departed the flight 1h30 minutes ahead of schedule. First flight was 15h15 minutes long. EK DXB-LAX is longer, both by distance and flight time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_flights#Longest_flights

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-12-01 03:55:40]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2383 posts, RR: 12
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 5243 times:

Quoting kevin (Reply 29):
PR will operate MNL-YVR-YYZ. Do they have 5th freedom rights on the YVR-YYZ sector?

First of all, that is not 5th freedom, but rather 8th freedom, and NO.

Outside of the EU (where EU airlines from country A have the rights for local flights within country B), very few airlines in the world are granted 8th freedom rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-12-01 04:15:42]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4869 posts, RR: 5
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 15 hours ago) and read 5171 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 30):
That time is wrong. Flightaware departed the flight 1h30 ahead of schedule for some reason. The flight is 15h 00 minutes based on official timetables. The inaugural flew 15h15 minutes

Thanks for spotting this error . This is better, average cruise of ~491k.


User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1446 posts, RR: 12
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 5038 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 26):
When was this? PAL has been improving on trans-Pacific flights, as far as I've heard. Since you mentioned flying in F, I presume this was before 2009, when the 744s were all refurbished with nose-to-tail AVOD. I suggest giving them a try again.

This was back in 07 on a 744. Cool thing about it was PacMan was on the same flight in F and I got to chat with him.. very cool guy. If they have a decent J, I'd fly them SFO-MNL, I didn't know they refurbished the 744s.



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineMarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 633 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 1 hour ago) and read 4790 times:

This 8th-freedom-less circle routing makes very little sense, but then again, so does alot of what the Philippine carriers are doing, and especially PR. Why dilute from a consistent daily nonstop to/from YVR as an excellent gateway for Canada in order to do this silly YYZ half-a$$ not-non-stop-both-ways, not-daily adventure?

User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2383 posts, RR: 12
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months ago) and read 4648 times:

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 34):

PR has no choice in the matter. They are limited by the number of landing rights Canada grants them. As for the westbound not being non-stop, again, they have no choice, as a fully loaded B77W would probably have difficulty doing that leg non-stop. Even EK have voiced concerns and want a bit more range on the 77W, specifically for routes like DXB-LAX.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 33):
If they have a decent J, I'd fly them SFO-MNL, I didn't know they refurbished the 744s.

They did, and there's a virtual tour of the refurbished 744 on PAL's website.

http://www1.philippineairlines.com/f...hts/during/mabuhay-class-interior/

----

Anyway, some highlights of the inaugural flight from a blogger invited to fly on the inaugural flight!

http://outoftownblog.com/philippine-...lines-now-flies-to-toronto-canada/


User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1446 posts, RR: 12
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4246 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 36):

Ooh nice, way better than what their F used to look like. Now, if only they'd join an Alliance  



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4139 times:

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 34):
Why dilute from a consistent daily nonstop to/from YVR as an excellent gateway for Canada in order to do this silly YYZ half-a$$ not-non-stop-both-ways, not-daily adventure?

MNL-YYZ will actually become daily starting next month: three times direct (eastbound at least; the return will still be via YVR) and four times as a tag-on from YVR. (Well, at least we now know where YVR-LAS went.)

http://airlineroute.net/2012/12/01/pr-yyz-jan13update2/


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3760 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 28):
Why can't they fly to Europe? What happened?
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 31):
Quoting kevin (Reply 29):PR will operate MNL-YVR-YYZ. Do they have 5th freedom rights on the YVR-YYZ sector?
First of all, that is not 5th freedom, but rather 8th freedom, and NO.

Outside of the EU (where EU airlines from country A have the rights for local flights within country B), very few airlines in the world are granted 8th freedom rights.

Also Australian carriers in New Zealand and vice versa.

There have been a few other excreptions in the past. Two or three carriers had rights (and may still have) to carry domestic passengers between GVA and ZRH on flights serving both points. I remember with Tunisair and TAP did it, and possibly one or two others.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 34):
This 8th-freedom-less circle routing makes very little sense, but then again, so does alot of what the Philippine carriers are doing, and especially PR. Why dilute from a consistent daily nonstop to/from YVR as an excellent gateway for Canada in order to do this silly YYZ half-a$$ not-non-stop-both-ways, not-daily adventure?

Keep in mind the Ontario region and YYZ in particular is the largest destination for immigrants from the Philippines (and virtually all other countries). It may make more economic sense for PR to operate the MNL-YYZ-YVR-MNL routing than paying another carrier a significant prorate to carry the passenger YVR-YYZ.

When CA and KE began service to YYZ, if memory correct they also operated via YVR, obviously without any traffic rights on the YVR-YYZ domestic sector.


User currently offlineMarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 633 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3578 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 35):

PR has no choice in the matter. They are limited by the number of landing rights Canada grants them. As for the westbound not being non-stop, again, they have no choice, as a fully loaded B77W would probably have difficulty doing that leg non-stop. Even EK have voiced concerns and want a bit more range on the 77W, specifically for routes like DXB-LAX.

Thenoflyzone
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 38):

MNL-YYZ will actually become daily starting next month: three times direct (eastbound at least; the return will still be via YVR) and four times as a tag-on from YVR. (Well, at least we now know where YVR-LAS went.)

http://airlineroute.net/2012/12/01/p...ate2/

Ok. Thanks guys.


User currently offlineqblue From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3507 times:

So last night 2Dec there was two PR aircraft at YVR A340 and B777 what up with that. Just great to see love the colours

User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2351 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3416 times:

I know that PR isn't allowed to codeshare with AA in the US, but can they codeshare with LA via LAX for traffic to South America?

Also, Why did the JNB route fail?



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3352 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 42):
can they codeshare with LA via LAX for traffic to South America?

They could, but I was imagining that given all the expansion, they could open new markets in the process. I know PR intends to start Brazil service at some point in the future, and I wonder how they will achieve that if they won't do it direct. (I was also hoping they launch MEX at some point in the future.)

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 42):
Also, Why did the JNB route fail?

PR never served JNB: that's MH. The only African route PR ever served was CAI.


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2351 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3283 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 43):
PR never served JNB

I was asking based on the terminated routes listed in wikipedia.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 43):
I wonder how they will achieve that if they won't do it direct.

Ironically, to serve GIG/GRU effectively PR would most likely route via JNB rather than flying an extra 2000 miles trying to cross the pacific.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3088 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 44):
Ironically, to serve GIG/GRU effectively PR would most likely route via JNB rather than flying an extra 2000 miles trying to cross the pacific.

Sorry if a bit OT...but while MNL-JNB-GIG is indeed the shortest one-stop routing, MNL-JED-GIG may be more commercially viable if the new bilateral with Saudi Arabia, and that which could be agreed with Brazil would grant PR fifth freedom rights to tap the manning and OFW traffic there.....as opposed to a virtual tech stop at JNB.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=mnl-jed-gig&MS=wls&DU=nm

It would also give PR the flexibility to use its recently ordered HGW A333s on the route instead of the 77W...allowing for a more rational deployment of aircraft. More overflight permissions across Asia and Africa would be needed, though. I see PAL Express flying this route when the time comes.



[Edited 2012-12-04 13:22:51]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2351 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2927 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 45):
MNL-JED-GIG may be more commercially viable if the new bilateral with Saudi Arabia, and that which could be agreed with Brazil would grant PR fifth freedom rights to tap the manning and OFW traffic there.

How much value is there in JED-GIG, and what value would Brazil gain in allowing it? A deep codeshare/JV with LAN?



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2858 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 46):
How much value is there in JED-GIG

The value is in the first leg subsidizing the second...and what chump change merchantmen could bring in between JED-GIG/GRU.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 46):
and what value would Brazil gain in allowing it?

The same question one could ask of MNL-JNB-GIG/GRU.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 48, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2632 times:

Quoting qblue (Reply 41):
So last night 2Dec there was two PR aircraft at YVR A340 and B777 what up with that.

On Sunday, the schedule shows 2 PR flights YVR-MNL leaving 10 minutes apart, the A340 that operates LAS-YVR-MNL at 2330 and the 77W that operates YYZ-YVR-MNL at 2340.


User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2383 posts, RR: 12
Reply 49, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 48):
the A340 that operates LAS-YVR-MNL at 2330 and the 77W that operates YYZ-YVR-MNL at 2340.

So the 77W, with a faster cruise speed, must surely be able to land before the A340 in MNL.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1977 posts, RR: 24
Reply 50, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2243 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
it is today that PR will begin 3 weekly B77W service non-stop to YYZ.

I would think that the 77L would be much more appropriate for this route. Does PR have a cargo business at all? Seems to me, that they are only planning on taking bags and pax, looking at the 77W payload-range chart.

But I guess, the decision has more to do with them taking delivery of the aircraft and having their hand forced by regulatory decisions in the USA.

Seems to me that it might be a better idea would be to swap some of their 77Ws for AI's 77Ls, run them direct to YYZ and codeshare with AC/UA to feed the flight. Added bonus: AI gets a 77W that's configured to what they actually should have.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 51, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2098 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 49):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 48):
the A340 that operates LAS-YVR-MNL at 2330 and the 77W that operates YYZ-YVR-MNL at 2340.

So the 77W, with a faster cruise speed, must surely be able to land before the A340 in MNL.

Correct. Schedule block time 14:35 for the A343 and 14:15 for the 77W. Not a very significant difference on a 5,706 nm sector.


User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 52, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2056 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 50):
But I guess, the decision has more to do with them taking delivery of the aircraft and having their hand forced by regulatory decisions in the USA.

I would venture that PR like their 77Ws very much.....just not when they couldn't use those where they intended.

Quoting ytz (Reply 50):
Seems to me that it might be a better idea would be to swap some of their 77Ws for AI's 77Ls

Pardon me, but I don't think PR would deem it a good idea to exchange their new 77Ws for planes nobody else wanted.

Quoting ytz (Reply 50):
run them direct to YYZ and codeshare with AC/UA to feed the flight.

PR already fly direct to YYZ on alternate schedules but not on the return...and could also codeshare on the 77W.


Quoting ytz (Reply 50):
Added bonus: AI gets a 77W that's configured to what they actually should have.

Yeah...AI would get a bonus...PR the onus. Perhaps AI could get 5J to bite if the 77Ls were priced cheap enough?  



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1977 posts, RR: 24
Reply 53, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1881 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 52):
I would venture that PR like their 77Ws very much.....just not when they couldn't use those where they intended.

That's the problem isn't it.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 52):
Pardon me, but I don't think PR would deem it a good idea to exchange their new 77Ws for planes nobody else wanted.

The suggestion was half-made in jest. But really, PR would be better off with 77Ls for this route. And AI would be better off with more 77Ws for their routes. PR could probably support more premium traffic. AI can't support their premium heavy configurations. Good conditions for a trade.

As for nobody wanting them, it was at the price that AI was insisting on. Were it to be some kind of swap (with cash) who knows?

In any event, it's not a likely outcome. Just outside the box thinking.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 52):
PR already fly direct to YYZ on alternate schedules but not on the return...and could also codeshare on the 77W.

With what payload. Look at the 77W range-payload chart. I can't see how they are flying to direct to YYZ with much more than the passenger's bag and a sack of lettermail. Guess they don't really have a cargo business. And if that's true then they aren't going to be making much on this route.

Going via YVR is a terrible workaround. Substantially longer routing makes for higher fuel burn and worse service. Who wants to be the pax that flew on the wrong day of the week and took hours more to get there?

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 52):
Yeah...AI would get a bonus...PR the onus. Perhaps AI could get 5J to bite if the 77Ls were priced cheap enough?

They'd both get something out of it really. PR would have a spectacular offering if it could run 77Ls to YYZ. High yielding pax from NYC, BOS, IAD, ORD, YUL all connecting through with a good partner relationship (AC or UA). Not to mention the good size filipino community in YYZ. PR could at least pick up more premium pax instead of more unprofitable or barely profitable VFR traffic.


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