g500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 726 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2487 times:
For many years Gulfstream has completely dominated the long-range business jet market. The BBJ, ACJ and Global Xprss haven't being able to pose a serious threat.
However, even though Gulfstream has a 5 year backlog for the 7000nm G-650, it's Bombardier who has secured two multi-billion dollar orders for the Globals 5000/6000/7000/8000 (Netjets,Vista Jet) lately
It looks like in 4-5 years, Bombardier will offer the biz jet with the longest range available, the 7900NM Global 8000
No. A lot of it is the market getting larger since, as you point out, Gulfstream isn't really doing worse.
The BBJ and ACJ will be fringe competitors since as converted airliners they will never offer the performance a purpose built business jet can. Of course those will never offer the space of a BBJ or ACJ, but I doubt the airliners are really making people at Gulfstream or Bombardier lose sleep.
As far as Gulfstream goes, I'm not sure that they are actually losing much ground. Remember that we don't know how much the Globals purchased in those larger orders are actually going for. It could be that Bombardier is trying to help make sure their backlogs are filled up until the Global 7000 and 8000 come to market.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
NBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 597 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2424 times:
Not likely. The fact that Netjets went with the global rather than the 650 has more to do with the EJA union than the actual product that Gulfstream makes.
"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
rfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 6150 posts, RR: 25 Reply 3, posted (5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2231 times:
For folks like Netjets - going with Bombardier puts more aircraft in their fleet faster than going to Gulfstream. Because the Gulfstream order book and production line is so solidly sold out.
One concern I have is that we've seen big orders announced by companies like Netjets and VistaJet before - and almost never is the full number of aircraft delivered.
Both orders are bets that the economy will grow significantly over the next 10 years. If there is any major economic distruption in Europe - the VistaJet order will be cut back significantly. Same thing in the US with Netjets whose order is a bet on major economic improvement in the US over the next few years.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21489 posts, RR: 24 Reply 5, posted (5 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2055 times:
Quoting g500 (Thread starter): For many years Gulfstream has completely dominated the long-range business jet market. The BBJ, ACJ and Global Xprss haven't being able to pose a serious threat.
What do you consider a serious threat? Bombardier's market share in the large business jet market (based on deliveries) for the past few years has been close to 40%. That sounds like a fairly serious threat in a market with 3 major competitors.
DashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 4 Reply 6, posted (5 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2039 times:
Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 2): Not likely. The fact that Netjets went with the global rather than the 650 has more to do with the EJA union than the actual product that Gulfstream makes.
I think he's saying it was a subjective opinion of the union (they lobbied for the BBD for whatever reason), rather than any particular technical deficiency of the 650.
Correct, like you said "for the past few years", in the 80s and 90s Gulfstream has a monopoly in the long - haul bizjet market with the G-III and G-IV. The G-V and 550 came along with the Global Express. It was then that things started to even out. Now Bombardier is selling Globals like crazy, that's why I started this thread
Dassault is selling the 7X fairly well, but I don't see them selling more than Bombardier or Gulfstream
DashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1484 times:
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 7): I think he's saying it was a subjective opinion of the union (they lobbied for the BBD for whatever reason), rather than any particular technical deficiency of the 650.
The union has never had a say whatsoever in any airframe NJA has bought. Period. NJASAP has also never lobbied for one manufacturer over another, either.
g500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 726 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1404 times:
Netjets probably got a better deal from Bombardier than Gulfstream, the decision to switch from G-V/550s to Globals was influenced by several factors, not product..... G-550s and Globals match each other evenly
Tangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 862 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1187 times:
Quoting g500 (Reply 11): the decision to switch from G-V/550s to Globals was influenced by several factors, not product..
Agreed, and I think one factor is that Bombardier probably does a better sales job for large orders (financing, customer support, vendor guarantees, training, marketing and operational studies, etc.). Netjets and Vistajet are becoming F Class Only sort of airlines, and Bombardier knows how to put together such business cases and services needs to operate large fleets under one operator from their commercial aircraft arm. Isn't Steve Ridolfi who is the president of Business Aircraft a previous president of Commercial Aircraft at Bombardier? In any case, bravo for Bombardier and Vistajet for this week's big announcement.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14347 posts, RR: 26 Reply 13, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1166 times:
Quoting g500 (Reply 8): The G-V and 550 came along with the Global Express. It was then that things started to even out. Now Bombardier is selling Globals like crazy, that's why I started this thread
But how do Guflstream's sales look? Yes, Bombardier is now selling plenty of large business jets, but I don't think it's coming at the expense of Gulfstream but rather expansion in the market.
Quoting g500 (Reply 11): Netjets probably got a better deal from Bombardier than Gulfstream, the decision to switch from G-V/550s to Globals was influenced by several factors, not product..... G-550s and Globals match each other evenly
That's what I was thinking. Gulfstream is the one with the new product, while Bombardier is the one that needs to keep their assembly line moving and revenues healthy while they develop a couple of new planes.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
DashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 953 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13): Netjets probably got a better deal from Bombardier than Gulfstream, the decision to switch from G-V/550s to Globals was influenced by several factors, not product..... G-550s and Globals match each other evenly
That's what I was thinking. Gulfstream is the one with the new product, while Bombardier is the one that needs to keep their assembly line moving and revenues healthy while they develop a couple of new planes.
I believe Bombardier agreed to buy back older airframes much like Embraer did when NJA ordered the Phenoms. When that order went down, EMB bought all of the Ultras. In this case I think Bombardier agreed to take the Falcons or something.
Cancellation language is also a huge driving factor. Pilot negotiations are coming soon and the company is going to want concessions. Those Globals are going to be held as a carrot to try and get them. NJA also isn't going to take an airframe they can't sell. NJA isn't like the airlines. We don't sell seats, we sell airplanes.
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