evanbu From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 376 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1871 times:
With the new service by WN well underway in DSM, a couple questions come to mind-
1. How have the loads to MDW been?
2. What's the future for WN in DSM? Why haven't we seen additions made? I know that in ICT, WN is starting with a pretty decent schedule. Is there some hesitation by WN in DSM? Why not go for the jugular and try to knock out G4 by offering service to LAS and MCO?
I think someone posted on here that they were in the upper 70s.
Quoting evanbu (Thread starter): 2. What's the future for WN in DSM? Why haven't we seen additions made? I know that in ICT, WN is starting with a pretty decent schedule. Is there some hesitation by WN in DSM? Why not go for the jugular and try to knock out G4 by offering service to LAS and MCO?
Try not to compare to ICT much. If I remember correctly the city is subsidizing the service initially (transferring it from FL). However it never hurts to have another connecting point for DAL.
I think DEN would be a no brainer, but there is a ton of competition on it right now. I wouldn't be shocked to see LAS at some point and G4 may very well run away if that is the case. The city might be asking WN not to launch those flights because of that reason too.
Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
iowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4098 posts, RR: 7 Reply 2, posted (5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1581 times:
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Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 1): Quoting evanbu (Thread starter):1. How have the loads to MDW been?
I think someone posted on here that they were in the upper 70s.
Yes I believe I figured roughly 76% outbound and 78% inbound for October. They had a 7% marketshare which is slighty ahead of F9 and G4, but less than US.
Quoting evanbu (Thread starter): Why not go for the jugular and try to knock out G4 by offering service to LAS and MCO?
The airport manager is hoping for LAS or STL. MCO may be a tough one to support on a daily basis. G4 is currently 2x weekly DSM-SFB on the off-season and 4x weekly in the Spring. Here's what I'm thinking for the larger WN stations from DSM:
LAS: G4 has flown this for years and would likely get pushed out. Can probably support 1x daily with the amount of connections offered in LAS.
PHX: Doable 1x daily. Whether US could maintain CR2 + 319 service in addition I'm not so sure.
DEN: This has been a mainline UA route for years with some connection mixed in. F9 is also running less than daily Airbus service this winter. If WN moves in I expect F9 to bail. 2x daily could be supported max probably, and I wouldn't expect LAS or PHX to compliment DEN.
STL: Not sure if this can be supported even 1x daily. Loads weren't the greatest on American Connection RJ's. OMA is support 3x daily.
BWI- Nice idea but doubt the demand is there. US has the right sized equipment for the D.C. high yield market with 2x E170 DSM-DCA.
MCO - see above
DAL - Maybe 1x could be supported once the Wright Amendment is gone but that is a stretch.
HOU - UA/CO has traditionally ran a daily or two daily RJ on this route. Not enough O&D for WN to bother with.
In the end the only thing I see WN messing with is DEN, LAS, or PHX.
Also of interest DSM will be getting a Dunkin Donuts in the food court pre-security. The airport should have no problem exceeding 2 million passengers this year even if December is flat YOY.
dbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 792 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1206 times:
Their lease at DSM ends June 30. If they decide to terminate the lease, there's not point in adding service. I'm hoping we find out soon if they decide to extend (if they haven't decided already).
If they decide to extend, their current schedule is out until the end of August. Would we have to wait until then before they add anything? Do they ever change anything after they released the schedule?
Kcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3629 posts, RR: 7 Reply 4, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1199 times:
Quoting evanbu (Thread starter): 2. What's the future for WN in DSM? Why haven't we seen additions made? I know that in ICT, WN is starting with a pretty decent schedule. Is there some hesitation by WN in DSM? Why not go for the jugular and try to knock out G4 by offering service to LAS and MCO?
WN isn't after G4's passengers. They can't make money on them, In fact, Spirit and Frontier are probably the only airlines than can make money on G4's pax and the jury is still our on Frontier.
I think you'll see WN grow in DSM over time. DSM has appeared to be a pretty stable market over the years with UA having mainline to DEN and ORD.
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 1): Try not to compare to ICT much. If I remember correctly the city is subsidizing the service initially (transferring it from FL). However it never hurts to have another connecting point for DAL.
Yes, it's not appropriate to compare ICT to another airport where the economics of a route actually matter.
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 3): Their lease at DSM ends June 30. If they decide to terminate the lease, there's not point in adding service. I'm hoping we find out soon if they decide to extend (if they haven't decided already).
They're not going to wait until their lease ends and pull service. They wouldn't have ever added true WN flights if that were ever under consideration.
Agreeing with you. If it didn't work on FL it can't work on WN.
Quoting iowaman (Reply 2): DAL - Maybe 1x could be supported once the Wright Amendment is gone but that is a stretch.
Once that all shakes out, I'll be shocked if any station with less than 10 daily flights has DAL service. They'll be able to serve every big market coast to coast.
CIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1991 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1010 times:
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 3): Their lease at DSM ends June 30. If they decide to terminate the lease, there's not point in adding service. I'm hoping we find out soon if they decide to extend (if they haven't decided already).
If they decide to extend, their current schedule is out until the end of August. Would we have to wait until then before they add anything? Do they ever change anything after they released the schedule?
I dont think they would pull DSM service that quick, especially since June 30 is still 3 months shy of their first anniversary of WN service to MDW. Hopefully it will be successful, but maybe it will be one of those smaller stations like CRP. DSM as a whole has a very nice mix of airlines and destinations. UA has mainline to ORD/DEN, and also Express to IAH, and EWR. DL does mainline to ATL, and DL connection has MEM, MSP and DTW. I think they also still have LGA. AA is now running mainline to DFW, and AAeagle has ORD. G4 with their flights to SFB/PIE/LAS/LAX. US runs RJ's with first class to DCA/CLT/ and PHX. Frontier still flies to DEN. Most airports its size would love having those kinds of flights. I could see maybe WN being 4x MDW, 4x DEN, splitting east and west coast connecting traffic. Maybe a 1x STL to handle some southern tier flow. I know the airport manager has wanted to reconnect DSM and STL because Monsanto has large operations at both ends....maybe Monsanto would kick in a revenue guarantee to get it going who knows. DSM was one of the last cities still served thru STL before the AA hub closed. And the drive, while now on 4 lanes, still is no direct shot. Guess we will see. I wish DSM success with WN.
nssd70 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 183 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 912 times:
Just a couple small corrections to equipment that the airlines are using at DSM. US Airways uses E170 to DCA and occasionally to CLT. American Eagle also flies to DFW,along with a couple American flights using a MD-80. Delta hasn't flown to LGA in a year or two. Delta's mainline service to ATL seems to be seasonally,and hasn't been used in the last couple of weeks. US Airways alos sends A319 from PHX on most days except on Thursday. and Saturday.
dbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 792 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 601 times:
Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 4): WN isn't after G4's passengers. They can't make money on them, In fact, Spirit and Frontier are probably the only airlines than can make money on G4's pax and the jury is still our on Frontier.
I think your generalization of G4's passengers represents only a small percentage of their customers.
I honestly don't have data to back up my assumption, but I believe it's only a small percentage of G4's passengers who are traveling only because they found a great deal and wouldn't otherwise be going on vacation. And of those passengers, they're probably the ones who are booking a room at Circus Circus or Days Inn (or fill in the blank of any other cheap Las Vegas hotel) which Allegiant probably doesn't make a whole lot of money on anyways.
G4 is successful on DSM-LAS because they are the only airline offering the route non-stop (which happens to be one of the most popular destinations out of DSM).
But:
1. They only offer the route 3-5 times a week, depending on the time of year
2. They rely solely on O&D traffic
3. They charge so many fees, for example their checked bag/carry-on bag fees (which, let's be honest..who goes to Vegas an only packs a small back pack that can fit under the seat in front of you?)
After all of the nickel and diming, although there are good deals to be had on Allegiant, you would probably end up spending less on Southwest.
Even if Southwest siphons only a few of Allegiant's passengers, they could also get the passengers who don't want to fly on an ULCC that nickel and dimes their passengers left and right (and who don't want to fly with the passengers stereotyped above). They'd get the passengers who are either driving to OMA/MCI for a nonstop Southwest flight or the passengers who'd rather connect at a hub on a legacy carrier than fly Allegiant. Also, LAS would provide a western connecting point so people wouldn't have to backtrack to MDW.
Who knows, maybe Southwest and Allegiant could co-exist on DSM-LAS. It'll be interesting to see what happens at ICT when Southwest starts flying there. ICT is a similar sized market to DSM and has also had G4 service for years.
I also don't buy the argument that Southwest wouldn't be successful at MCO because Airtran wasn't successful. Airtran operated twice weekly and didn't allow connections. MCO is another popular destination out of DSM especially in the winter-spring break time frame. A daily flight offering connections would, in my opinion, do well against Allegiant for the reasons stated above.
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