flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 430 posts, RR: 1 Posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 25651 times:
What is the reason behind this? I have never heard of or seen pictures of a plane being on the flight line in such an unfinished condition like this ( and the 787 doesn't count).
I'm assuming that there had to be some sort of issue with the vertical. Does anyone know if it was found prior to or after assembly?
flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 430 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 25184 times:
deltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1590 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 24672 times:
Quoting liftsifter (Reply 8):
Something tells me they want to apply some special coat but are holding back.
Agreed. There was article out this morning from local Dallas news station confirming new livery but saying that AA refuses to say when or how it will be revealed. My guess is they planned on doing it already but w/ the pilot contract out for vote they want to make double sure the labor issues have settled down first, i.e. last thing they need is to unveil new livery/logo/77W roll out along w/ commercials and such w/ backdrop of another major slowdown and media circus.
RyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 2674 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (6 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 21716 times:
Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 9): My guess is they planned on doing it already but w/ the pilot contract out for vote they want to make double sure the labor issues have settled down first
I think it has more to do with the delay in 77W deliveries, although I see you point about avoiding a labor showdown after the "birth of the new American", or however they spin it.
Quoting brilondon (Reply 10): Or maybe it is a conspiracy, they are going to paint it like every other AA aircraft and end all the speculation about a new livery. Just saying.
So they went and wasted a massive amount of money painting a 77W white and grey just to entertain ANetters?
Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 11): I can't fathom how ghastly the 77W would look in the Current AA livery. Maybe as bad as their 772's.
I agree, but it'll be much worse because there is so much more empty metal.
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9131 posts, RR: 13 Reply 13, posted (6 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 21384 times:
I join the ones who say that it is strange that the vertical stabilizer is taken off completely on the flight line. Even if they wanted to keep the new tail logo a secret, it shouldn't have been necessary to take the vertical stabilizer completely off like this.
In the mean time we are all awaiting the new livery AA will be introducing
TC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 347 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 20471 times:
This strikes me as being a quite drastic move just to hide the new logo, why not leave it on and paint it all white instead.
After all, the rest of the aircraft still has teo be painted.
So what's happening to AA 77W's on the FAL in production now ? Presumably the third one is there or thereabouts by now. Is it being built without the vertical stab ?
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26956 posts, RR: 83 Reply 15, posted (6 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 20030 times:
Isn't 717AN still out on the flight line with no logo on her vertical stabilizer?
Plus 718AN hasn't even had her fuselage painted, so why would Boeing slap the logo on her tail? And even if they had for some reason, easy enough to cover it up in the paint hangar before they rolled it out.
The only way this makes sense to me as a logo-related issue is if they're painting the vertical stabilizer separately, but if that was the case you think they would have pulled it off of 717AN, as well.
So I'm guessing there was an issue with the tail that requires fixing. Maybe they banged it into something and damaged it?
JAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1218 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (6 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 19284 times:
How did they remove the tail? Did they do it outside, or move it into the factory and use a crane? I thought that balance of the tail is so critical that manufacturers must handle it very carefully. Yanking it off outside doesn't seem to fall within the handling protocol if that is the case.
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 18, posted (6 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 19055 times:
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18): How did they remove the tail? Did they do it outside, or move it into the factory and use a crane?
They would have had to use a crane, whether it was inside or outside. Given that the factory has overhead cranes everywhere, it would seem very likely that this was done inside.
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18): I thought that balance of the tail is so critical that manufacturers must handle it very carefully.
That's true, although it's really only the rudder that has a major balance concern.
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18): Yanking it off outside doesn't seem to fall within the handling protocol if that is the case.
Even if done outside, nobody is "yanking" anything. If you ding it, you've got to repair it regardless of the balance. So you don't ding it.
LostSound From Canada, joined May 2012, 161 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 18693 times:
Quoting zeke (Reply 20): My guess would be a production holdup, or possible damage.
Agreed. Traditionally, when an airline is introducing a new design that is not ready for reveal, they "tape" white sheets over the design to hide the painted artwork. We saw this with many carriers including JetBlue, a couple years back now when they introduced the blueberry tail design and new upsized logo.
The removal or non-attachment of the the vertical stab. is too extreme of a move to be related to the new livery in my opinion. There are much less dramatic, and cheaper, options to hiding the colours.
Navion From United States of America, joined May 1999, 987 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (6 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 18303 times:
Actually it is none of the speculation listed above. This aircraft is testing a new 777X feature which does not have a vertical stabilizer (saving a ton of weight) but instead uses fly-by-wire controlled split ailerons and differential computer controlled thrust asymmetry to achieve directional control resulting in significant fuel savings. If thrust control plus split-ailerons doesn't result in satisfactory yaw control, they will also use a control vane in the APU exhaust to supplement the authority.
135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 360 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (6 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 18241 times:
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18): How did they remove the tail? Did they do it outside, or move it into the factory and use a crane? I thought that balance of the tail is so critical that manufacturers must handle it very carefully. Yanking it off outside doesn't seem to fall within the handling protocol if that is the case.
Vertical fins, are hinged and are folded to one side before they are removed. This can be done outside or inside with the use of cranes.
As Stitch said, there probably was some damage as this is usually the only reason you ever remove a vertical fin. The Rudder is the only thing that gets removed for new livery applications (most of the time), due to the need to "balance" it after the new paints are applied.
iad787 From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 501 posts, RR: 44 Reply 30, posted (6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 16552 times:
Okay, this made me laugh.
Quoting Navion (Reply 23): This aircraft is testing a new 777X feature which does not have a vertical stabilizer (saving a ton of weight) but instead uses fly-by-wire controlled split ailerons and differential computer controlled thrust asymmetry to achieve directional control resulting in significant fuel savings. If thrust control plus split-ailerons doesn't result in satisfactory yaw control, they will also use a control vane in the APU exhaust to supplement the authority.
But I can say definitively it has absolutely nothing to do with the new colors.
Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
dtw757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1424 posts, RR: 2 Reply 31, posted (6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 16578 times:
I think the delay which is due to "seat issues" is smoke and mirrors. I think Q1 2013 you will see AA emerge from bankruptcy with a completely new rebranding top to bottom. You will not see the new branding until the day they emerge however. Carefully timed with the delivery of the 777-300. They aren't ready yet to emerge so they aren't ready to paint the 77W. It would be hard to keep that secret once it's completely painted. I think this white you're seeing on the gray plane is also a mule much the way they disguise new cars before they are released. In the end the tail will not be white but perhaps all blue. Just my
baldwin471 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 211 posts, RR: 0 Reply 32, posted (6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 16096 times:
Quoting brilondon (Reply 27): Yes, and LH, AF and Swiss are so much better, not having any thing but a billboard style name on a blank white surface. Give me a break...
I never said that was better. Although in those cases yes they do look better than shiny tacky metal. Look at TG or EY and their liveries, no-one is saying you either have to have euro-white or tacky metal. AA's looks horrible. Look at AM if you want to see polished metal done correctly.
Quoting Navion (Reply 23):
This aircraft is testing a new 777X feature which does not have a vertical stabilizer (saving a ton of weight) but instead uses fly-by-wire controlled split ailerons and differential computer controlled thrust asymmetry to achieve directional control resulting in significant fuel savings. If thrust control plus split-ailerons doesn't result in satisfactory yaw control, they will also use a control vane in the APU exhaust to supplement the authority.
They have the technology but have never put into use. WONDER WOMAN'S AIRPLANE!
Kempa From Brazil, joined Aug 2003, 372 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 13568 times:
Waiting for a polished metal stab perhaps? Can't remove paint if the new logos are on AA polished metal background. Possibly getting a new stab that is polished with only the logo painted.
ckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 4684 posts, RR: 1 Reply 37, posted (6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 12778 times:
Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 11): I can't fathom how ghastly the 77W would look in the Current AA livery. Maybe as bad as their 772's.
Having spent a lot of time on AA, as well as sitting at ORD, I love the look of the 772 in the bare metal finish.
Considering the number of planes that are all white or mostly white, including UA, US, and DL, the bare metal finish can't be mistaken, especially on a sunny day.
If you think AA's bare metal is ghastly, what do think of the old Hughes Air West scheme, bright yellow with purple trim. That was ghastly, especially if they hadn't been washed for some time.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26956 posts, RR: 83 Reply 38, posted (6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 12666 times:
Quoting ckfred (Reply 37): If (one) think(s) AA's bare metal is ghastly, what do(es one) think of the old Hughes Air West scheme, bright yellow with purple trim?
rc135x From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 163 posts, RR: 2 Reply 41, posted (6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9503 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39): The Boeing 377 Stratocruiser tail could be folded to fit low hangars. I've never heard of any jets with that capability.
I believe both the B-52 and the KC-135 had this capability. Photos of early B-52 roll out show the folded tail. This capability saw little (if any) use in routine operations.
KC-135A, A(RT), D, E, E(RT), Q, R, EC-135A, C, G, L, RC-135S, U, V, W, X, TC-135S, W
KC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 165 posts, RR: 0 Reply 42, posted (6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9377 times:
The vertical stabilizer on the KC-135 can be folded down, but it's a major production to do it so there has to be a good reason for it, IE serious maintenance, damage, or..... dropping a wrench down the stabilizer while changing a rudder compensator, perhaps....... .. not that I'd know about that, of course.....
rj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1491 posts, RR: 2 Reply 43, posted (6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8704 times:
Quoting Navion (Reply 22): Actually it is none of the speculation listed above. This aircraft is testing a new 777X feature which does not have a vertical stabilizer (saving a ton of weight) but instead uses fly-by-wire controlled split ailerons and differential computer controlled thrust asymmetry to achieve directional control resulting in significant fuel savings. If thrust control plus split-ailerons doesn't result in satisfactory yaw control, they will also use a control vane in the APU exhaust to supplement the authority.
I don't believe a word of this. No airplane can fly without a vertical stabilizer. It's a matter of simple physics. Every airplane from the Wright Flyer all the way to the present has had some form of a vertical stabilizer.
American 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3334 posts, RR: 14 Reply 45, posted (6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7789 times:
Quoting rj777 (Reply 43): I don't believe a word of this. No airplane can fly without a vertical stabilizer. It's a matter of simple physics. Every airplane from the Wright Flyer all the way to the present has had some form of a vertical stabilizer.
The B-2 Stealth doesn't have a vertical stabilizer, like etoile said.
But, with all due respect to Navion, I think that he was just kidding in what he was saying. Of course this 777 won't fly like that. As other have said, it was taken away by cranes to fix an issue, before continuing building the airplane. I think that the reason the airplane is not kept inside the hangar in Paine Field is not to block the production line.
Ben Soriano
"Aimer jusqu'a l'impossible, c'est possible". Tina Arena.
amccann From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6150 times:
For curiosity sake and somewhat unrelated;
Was the X31 ever actually flown without the vertical stabilizer? It appears the photo above is an edited photo. I thought the X31 performed "quasi tailless flight test," utilizing intentionally destabilizing control inputs in roll and yaw and then controlled the destabilizing inputs via three dimensional thrust vectoring.
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
boeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 994 posts, RR: 3 Reply 50, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5637 times:
Quoting flightsimer (Thread starter): What is the reason behind this? I have never heard of or seen pictures of a plane being on the flight line in such an unfinished condition like this ( and the 787 doesn't count).
I'm assuming that there had to be some sort of issue with the vertical. Does anyone know if it was found prior to or after assembly?
Interesting little bit of useless information that airplane in the picture has the APU running. Funny since the vertical isn;t in the way you can see the APU door extended in the picture. Like I said useless info.
Navion From United States of America, joined May 1999, 987 posts, RR: 1 Reply 51, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5608 times:
Quoting rj777 (Reply 43): I don't believe a word of this. No airplane can fly without a vertical stabilizer. It's a matter of simple physics. Every airplane from the Wright Flyer all the way to the present has had some form of a vertical stabilizer.
You guys are right in noting that I was joking however there is a germ of reality in my comment. I just got done reading astronaut John Youngs new book "Forever Young" and he discusses in detail the desire to remove the vertical tails from the Space Shuttle which would have saved almost a ton and a half of weight, an enormous benefit given the high cost per pound to go into space. The money wasn't there to fund this intiative but the technology was available using split ailerons and tail Reaction Control System rockets for yaw control. The technology is now there and this is doable.
Boeings "Blended Wing Body" design has just such a tailless feature and for good reason. You save tons of weight and drag (not to mention lowering maintenance costs on all of the parts and systems in such a large aircaft component). Technology is now reaching the point that we could see such designs in practical use possibly sooner than we think. It would be an enormously efficient move.
But back to the original point, yes, I was kidding.
flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 430 posts, RR: 1 Reply 52, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5292 times:
maxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 861 posts, RR: 5 Reply 53, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5278 times:
135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 360 posts, RR: 2 Reply 54, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4154 times:
Quoting rc135x (Reply 41): I believe both the B-52 and the KC-135 had this capability. Photos of early B-52 roll out show the folded tail. This capability saw little (if any) use in routine operations.
Yes, they were designed to be able to do that if needed, and then the AF built bigger/taller hangars (or tail out Docks) and did not utilize that much, as KC135Hydraulics said... it's a maintenance nightmare to do the task.
Quoting rj777 (Reply 43): I don't believe a word of this. No airplane can fly without a vertical stabilizer. It's a matter of simple physics. Every airplane from the Wright Flyer all the way to the present has had some form of a vertical stabilizer.
flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 430 posts, RR: 1 Reply 56, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2589 times:
Anybody know the status of this bird? Is it still missing the vertical?
flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 430 posts, RR: 1 Reply 58, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2425 times:
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