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G4, NK & WN Go To US Supreme Court Against DOT  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25148 posts, RR: 46
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8141 times:

Allegiant, Spirit and Southwest Airlines have petitioned the US Supreme Court in their effort to overturn DOT's recent mandate on ticket pricing to include all government taxes and fees, along with the departments policies such as mandating 24-hour refund period even on non-refundable tickets.

The airlines argue that the DOT violates the industries First Amendment rights in mandating that they must advertise total cost tickets, which restricts airlines truthful speech about the larger and ever growing share of each ticket that consist of government taxes and fees. As part of the 1978 Deregulation Act passed by Congress, the intent was that the marketplace would determine price and airlines as virtually every other industry in America were free to advertise products on a pre-tax basis. The DOT rules even further limit the airlines ability to prominently identify government imposed taxes and fees by requiring such information be in significantly smaller type.

Secondly, the DOT exceeded its statutory mandate to arbitrarily require airlines to begin allowing customers to cancel and offer full refunds within 24-hours of purchase even though consumers opted to select fares with clearly disclosed conditions that do not allow refunds. Airlines argue that this action is a form of regulation on pricing and market competitiveness which also goes against the Deregulation Act that recognized that the availability of a variety of open market fare options and their applicable restrictions would be pro-competitive for both the consumer and sellers.


Writ of Certiorari:
http://www.airlineinfo.com/ost14/ost112912.html#Spirit

=

[Edited 2012-11-30 08:56:19]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
105 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7138 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8063 times:

I think they will win, but let's be honest. The real issue is that NK was taking advantage of this to create tons of fees that are not tax related. IMHO, actual govt taxes should be excluded, but not other fees which are really airline levied.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7445 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7986 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
I think they will win, but let's be honest. The real issue is that NK was taking advantage of this to create tons of fees that are not tax related. IMHO, actual govt taxes should be excluded, but not other fees which are really airline levied.

Agreed but it is a sly move by the airlines.
I smell a new NK advertising slogan- "Now a higher authority than the US Supreme Court"   



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5901 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7856 times:
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It's the airlines' attempt to provide false advertising to the public on the true price of the ticket. I think the airline needs to be upfront with all of the fees and taxes. I think it's wrong for an airline to advertise $39 ticket when the actual price will be $99.80 with all the fees and taxes.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21567 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7817 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
It's the airlines' attempt to provide false advertising to the public on the true price of the ticket.

   And there are false advertising regulations in this country designed for consumer protection, so this isn't without precedent. I do think that the rule will hold up.

As for the second issue of the 24-hour refund rule, that I could see being struck down. I hope it isn't, since I've taken advantage of that sort of thing (though not on any of the complainant airlines), but I would understand if it were.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineseven3seven From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 318 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7781 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
I think it's wrong for an airline to advertise $39 ticket when the actual price will be $99.80 with all the fees and taxes.

You can mostly blame the govt for taxing the bejeezus out of the airlines and its consumers. Hiding the taxes in the fare will just allow the govt. to increase airline taxes without you even realizing it. What you should be doing is protesting the govt.'s need to outrageously tax the airline industry.

The airlines are correct to be fighting this fight and I think they will win. If the industry is deregulated than what is this rule to require showing entire fares about? Sometimes the govt. is wrong



My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7724 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
It's the airlines' attempt to provide false advertising to the public on the true price of the ticket. I think the airline needs to be upfront with all of the fees and taxes. I think it's wrong for an airline to advertise $39 ticket when the actual price will be $99.80 with all the fees and taxes.

They should only have to advertise the price including mandatory fees, which they've been doing. I don't know a conventional way to market a product with dozens of service combinations that would affect the price.

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 5):
You can mostly blame the govt for taxing the bejeezus out of the airlines and its consumers. Hiding the taxes in the fare will just allow the govt. to increase airline taxes without you even realizing it. What you should be doing is protesting the govt.'s need to outrageously tax the airline industry.

True enough. Though you always get the argument of "someone has to pay for the FAA and ATC and all of the infrastructure" I'm sure there's a happy medium that will never be reached.


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1902 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7674 times:

As much as I love WN (and conversely hate NK and G4), I hope they lose this.

The lack of advertising the taxes and fees is nothing more than a bait-and-switch. And what's so wrong with the 24 hour rule?


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7577 times:

The way I look at it, the DOT is trying to hide from the flying public just how much of that fare is taxes. The DOT has a nasty habit of changing the rules to make them look better. They did the same thing with the on-time stats in the late 80s.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3739 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7553 times:

Any word on whether G4's blocked plans to offer a fare option based on fuel prices (where one would pay extra if fuel went up from the time of ticket purchases) are also part of this Supreme Court case?

G4 was making a big hissy over that when the DOT issued their regulations.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 7):

As much as I love WN (and conversely hate NK and G4), I hope they lose this.

I hope they lose this, too. However, I like WN (still offering great service, even though they don't serve my home airport), and I like G4 as well (good service, and they bring low vacation fares to small-town airports that leisure travelers would otherwise ignore). However, it will be a cold day in hell before I step on an NK Airbus.



Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3739 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7548 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 8):
The way I look at it, the DOT is trying to hide from the flying public just how much of that fare is taxes.
NK was making that exact argument on their website when the new rules came into effect.

IIRC, NK's CEO Ben Baldanza also thinks that air travel in the US is overtaxed. (He must not have seen the air travel taxes in our friendly neighbor to the north...)

[Edited 2012-11-30 11:39:46]


Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7543 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
he DOT exceeded its statutory mandate to arbitrarily require airlines to begin allowing customers to cancel and offer full refunds within 24-hours of purchase even though consumers opted to select fares with clearly disclosed conditions that do not allow refunds.

This bit I can definitely see being overturned. Unless the DOT lawyers find a clever way to couch it in terms of Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce, then I'd suggest that it violates the freedom to contract.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Allegiant, Spirit and Southwest Airlines have petitioned the US Supreme Court in their effort to overturn DOT's recent mandate on ticket pricing to include all government taxes and fees

I feel that this will be harder for them to argue. While I understand that aviation is one of the few industries that is required to advertise prices including tax, it is also one of the few that is entirely taxed at the federal level. Therefore taxes are uniform across the nation, whereas in other industries - such as retail - it would not be possible to adopt after-tax advertising because the level of tax levied varies from state to state. And to couch this in terms of freedom of speech seems to be drawing a very long bow!



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8897 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7494 times:

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 6):
They should only have to advertise the price including mandatory fees, which they've been doing. I don't know a conventional way to market a product with dozens of service combinations that would affect the price.

Agreed.

When I go to Best Buy to buy my nice, new big screen TV that's advertised in the Sunday flyer, it says it's $999 (or whatever). It doesn't say in the total price that I get to pay a nice little bit of money in sales tax to various government entities at all (maybe it does in the fine print, but it sure doesn't say anywhere until I get to checkout how much in tax I owe).

It's a double standard for the airline industry.

AIrline-included fees should be included, but taxes should be seperate. Heck, on some routes the taxes can vary between the O&D based on what hub you might be connecting in (ie MEM has a much lower PFC than ATL).


User currently offlineJONC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7472 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 7):
The lack of advertising the taxes and fees is nothing more than a bait-and-switch

If you go to target and buy a toothbush for $2.99 you take it to the register and the price is $3.24 including taxes. Thats nowhere on the lable, and its just accepted in the U.S. that taxes are added to goods and services. Why is the airline industry being singled out in this issue? No other industry is forced to include the amount of taxes in any advsertised price. Its just not fair.


User currently offlineAlasizon From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7436 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
$39 ticket when the actual price will be $99.80 with all the fees and taxes.

While I think that taxes should be known, advertising the ticket as $39 is very correct as that is what the airline is charging you to get you from point A to point B. The additional taxes and fees are not airline imposed, they are just required to be collected by the airlines. It is just like sales tax in stores, in order to get your items, you need to pay the sales tax as well at the register even though it is not the store charging you the sales tax. Stores can advertise their prices pre-tax, no reason why the airline industry shouldn't be able to as well.

The DOT, in my opinion, overstepped their bounds on this one. In this day and age, anyone who thinks that there are no taxes on a purchase of any kind is quite foolish and it is obvious that there will be taxes, no reason for airlines to disclose them as part of their ticket price when they are not actually part of the ticket price, rather the fees on the ticket.



Window seats may be over-rated, but I'll take a window seat on a DC9 anyday
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21567 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7385 times:

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 13):
If you go to target and buy a toothbush for $2.99 you take it to the register and the price is $3.24 including taxes. Thats nowhere on the lable, and its just accepted in the U.S. that taxes are added to goods and services. Why is the airline industry being singled out in this issue? No other industry is forced to include the amount of taxes in any advsertised price. Its just not fair.

When Southwest starts competing with Oral-B, then you'd have a point. But as long as the rule is applied consistently across the airline industry, it's entirely fair.

Quoting Alasizon (Reply 14):
In this day and age, anyone who thinks that there are no taxes on a purchase of any kind is quite foolish and it is obvious that there will be taxes

Here's the difference: let's say I go into a store and compare Item A ($10) and Item B ($14). Because they're in the same store, both have an 8% sales tax, so I can figure out relatively what I'm going to pay for each item, and I can certainly tell which of the two is more expensive. That's not the case with air travel taxes or fees, which may vary based on routing, airline, etc. So I can't see which is actually cheaper until I go through the booking processes for both, which is a waste of my time.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5598 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7383 times:

Lots and lots of misconceptions in this thread.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
It's the airlines' attempt to provide false advertising to the public on the true price of the ticket. I think the airline needs to be upfront with all of the fees and taxes. I think it's wrong for an airline to advertise $39 ticket when the actual price will be $99.80 with all the fees and taxes.

So when the auto dealership does the same thing, it's not false advertising? Why does EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY save one get a free pass?

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
And there are false advertising regulations in this country designed for consumer protection, so this isn't without precedent.

There is exactly ONE other industry that is required to include all taxes in the advertised price: Gasoline. So clearly, omitting taxes from advertised prices is NOT "false advertising".

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 7):
The lack of advertising the taxes and fees is nothing more than a bait-and-switch.

You really need to look up the definition of bait-and-switch.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 11):
it is also one of the few that is entirely taxed at the federal level.

False. Individual airports set their own PFCs (which I've seen range from $1 to $30, with the average being about $10).

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The DOT rules even further limit the airlines ability to prominently identify government imposed taxes and fees by requiring such information be in significantly smaller type.

If anything is going to get overturned, that one is it. Total 1st Amendment violation with zero precedent.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1902 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7287 times:

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 13):
If you go to target and buy a toothbush for $2.99 you take it to the register and the price is $3.24 including taxes. Thats nowhere on the lable, and its just accepted in the U.S. that taxes are added to goods and services. Why is the airline industry being singled out in this issue? No other industry is forced to include the amount of taxes in any advsertised price. Its just not fair.

What other industries randomly introduce nickel-and-dime fees the way the airline industry does? This isn't about the taxes and we all know it.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

You really need to look up the definition of bait-and-switch.

No need to be condescending!


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7231 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
False. Individual airports set their own PFCs (which I've seen range from $1 to $30, with the average being about $10).

In which case that further builds the case for including them in advertising. At least if I go to a store here in NC I know that 6-7% will be added (depending on the county). I don't, however, have the first clue what the difference in cost would be for flying out of RDU as opposed to GSO.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21567 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7191 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
There is exactly ONE other industry that is required to include all taxes in the advertised price: Gasoline. So clearly, omitting taxes from advertised prices is NOT "false advertising".

And gasoline taxes being included in the price has never been struck down by the courts. So clearly, there is precedent for this sort of regulation.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinenkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2662 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7153 times:

Rental cars are just as bad at this... you ever see the taxes and fees on rental cars? However, every airline website I have been on shows you the TOTAL price before you have to pay for it, you can always get out of it before confirming... If they showed you one price, then changed it after you confirmed and paid, then it would be bait and switch.


I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7146 times:

What has WN ever done that puts them in this category of airlines? I never noticed any fals advertising or outrageous fees with them. Can somebody enlighten me a bit?

That being said, WN is one of my favorite airlines, but my entire being is based on principles, and this is breaking a big one. You don't pull such slimy moves like false advertising or covering up fees and taxes, and then try to pull something like this! I don't see how this was even allowed to go to court, as it is a method of protecting the common good and the well-being of the people.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3739 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7080 times:

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 21):

What has WN ever done that puts them in this category of airlines? I never noticed any fals advertising or outrageous fees with them. Can somebody enlighten me a bit?

WN, G4, and NK are all LCCs that don't like the fact that they can't show rock-bottom fares before tax anymore.

WN's opposition is strictly limited to including government and other taxes and fees in fares and the 24-hour cancellation rule, and there are some parts of the DOT rules that WN likes. G4 and NK, however, have much deeper grudges, and many of these have been mentioned in depth in this thread.



Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6987 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 22):
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 21):
What has WN ever done that puts them in this category of airlines? I never noticed any fals advertising or outrageous fees with them. Can somebody enlighten me a bit?
WN, G4, and NK are all LCCs that don't like the fact that they can't show rock-bottom fares before tax anymore.

WN's opposition is strictly limited to including government and other taxes and fees in fares and the 24-hour cancellation rule, and there are some parts of the DOT rules that WN likes. G4 and NK, however, have much deeper grudges, and many of these have been mentioned in depth in this thread.

Oh, thanks! I have notice recenty that WN's fres are not as cheapas they used to be. I don't know if this had anything to do wth that, but what cost me around $150 on WN last year costs me $400 this year!


User currently offlinefrmrcapcadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1714 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6951 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
So when the auto dealership does the same thing, it's not false advertising? Why does EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY save one get a free pass?

Many of us assume that the advertised price is a starting point, and that we will end up paying less.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
25 hatbutton : Plenty. If I go to a baseball game, all I pay for is a seat. If I want any food or drinks I have to pay an astounding amount for it because in many p
26 usairways85 : I can live with the listed fare including all fees (airport, fuel, premium cabin, etc.) but excludes strictly tax. One area that really frustrates me
27 ouboy79 : I'm somewhat shocked airlines don't say "your airfare is $$$ which includes $$$ in government fees and taxes." That would seem to get their point acro
28 jporterfi : Does anyone have a link that you can access without being a member of airlineinfo.com?
29 spiritair97 : I usually do ISP-BWI-CHS on Tues or Wed morning that leaves ISP at 0630ish and the flight I flew it last year for $130, but now it's $378. I guess ga
30 Kcrwflyer : That's not taxes, their fares have been on the rise for years and will continue to do so as costs rise. I'd say the introductory fares are long gone.
31 JHCRJ700 : Agreed. Though it isn't a big deal per say, it would be nice to just have an up front cost from the get go. Is it still fair to call WN a LCC? In som
32 Byrdluvs747 : Count me as hoping the airlines lose this case as well. Yes, but auto dealers don't double the price of the car because you want to buy it two days be
33 Post contains images Maverick623 : Actually, rental car companies make it a point to capitalize and bold the taxes charged when you select a car... something the DOT has prohibited the
34 mayor : Those commodities aren't perishable items as a seat on a flight is. Once it's gone, it's gone. If a customer doesn't by a toothbrush, it will still b
35 DTWLAX : Does the price of a toothbrush change multiple times a day? Does it start at $2.99 and go all the way upto $12.99? If the airline industry is willing
36 Kcrwflyer : They have the highest labor costs in the industry. Nothing about them is Low Cost. But again, how? Don't some say that other options may cost more.
37 hatbutton : Maybe not toothbrushes, but certainly things like fruit, vegetables, meat and seafood prices change often due to a little thing called supply and dem
38 ouboy79 : Yes those days are typically the best to fly on, but for WN they are also the best days to book on - which online fare sales tend to take place durin
39 Post contains images Maverick623 : Except it does matter; because then he would know that the taxes are outrageous and petition his representatives in Congress to change them. There se
40 FWAERJ : And it's not just WN. US Airways also likes calling themselves an LCC (in fact, their NYSE ticker symbol is LCC), but in many markets, their fares ar
41 spiritair97 : Thanks, good to onw about booking in the middle of e week.
42 spiritair97 : Thanks, good to know about booking in the middle of the week.
43 GentFromAlaska : I agree. Full transparency. I suspect the new Consumer Protection Agency will win this one. I also see a need for the federal government to define UL
44 mayor : That's ok, as long as other businesses are required to do the same thing. Except for gasoline (and I have seen pumps that show the amount of tax in t
45 sancho99504 : Greyhound, AMTRAK, MegaBUS, Hilton, Marriott, Hampton Inn, Super 8, Radisson, etc. all do this....... and none of them have to show you fees and taxe
46 Maverick623 : While we're at it, why don't we get the government to define what a "pale ale" is, or what exactly a "sale" is. Yep. It's called marketing... and fre
47 strandedinbgm : Once your done telling everyone that they are wrong, go back and read the first amendment. This is not a case of freedom of speech, religion, or pres
48 hatbutton : Why are you still going back to this? The topic at hand relates just to the taxes piece only, which pretty much every airline is opposed to including
49 mayor : Are we talking about taxes or fees? I was led to believe that this was all about TAXES. How many of the fees you're so adamant about are imposed by t
50 GentFromAlaska : I think you missing the brunt of my post. Both "discount" and "budget" can be easily defined. ULCC not so much.
51 GentFromAlaska : I've stayed at many a hotel across the last twenty five or so years and can't remember an instance when I didn't know the taxes would be. I've booked
52 silentbob : Things like "resort fees" or "energy surcharges" are not uncommon anymore.
53 strfyr51 : so what the DOT is asking for is "WHAT is a FULL FARE Ticket Price" ?? Amazing !! I thought Nobody wanted to Pay full fare which caused all of these "
54 Post contains images mayor : But, in asking for the TAXES to be put in a smaller font, they are almost asking for them to be hidden, without actually doing so.
55 enilria : Yes, but I think they have a point only on real taxes. DOT was so peeved with NK that they over-reached in attempting to prevent NK from using loopho
56 cmf : Knowing no-one would make a statement like that without facts to back them up and having tried to find the numbers you obviously have. Please direct
57 FWAERJ : Tobacco products sold in the US also include most, if not all taxes in the price.
58 GentFromAlaska : I can't remember seeing any sort of resort fee as recently as two months ago in the U.S. at two of the brands mentioned above. I know Hilton Garden a
59 Post contains links hatbutton : If you have read any industry news you will constantly see people like Tony Tyler, head of IATA constantly coming out in the press against government
60 Post contains images AirframeAS : I disagree with you a million percent. I want to know what I'm going to be expected to pay for and the like when I book my tickets. Nickle and diming
61 sancho99504 : I stay at Hampton Inn all the time. When I book the room, I do not know the total price until I enter my CC info and click "reserve". The total price
62 Maverick623 : No, you can go back and reread my post. My comment was about how the DOT has prevented the airlines from informing people just how much of that total
63 mayor : And every one I've been to has the window sticker on it, with the price of the car and options plus the delivery charge. The other fees and taxes don
64 AirframeAS : Source? Even if that were true, that can always be changed, and that is what the DOT is trying to do. Next time you go to the auto dealership, go loo
65 mayor : How in the world does that solve anything? As you say, they'll just pass those fees on to the consumer as every other industry does. You complain abo
66 AirframeAS : No, I have never complained. Show me on this thread where I have complained about higher fares. I am complaining about how the fees itself, before th
67 mayor : Just another example of the airlines being picked on and the gov't trying to tell a business, in a free market, how to run itself. They wanted de-reg
68 Maverick623 : Right from the OP: While I can't access the link he posted, LAXintl is pretty good at not making stuff up. LOL WUT. So because something can be "chan
69 AirframeAS : And laws can be changed. Not if the DOT says that the airlines are prohibited from passing the tax along to the customer.....
70 Raventech : It will always be passed on to the customer because the money must come from somewhere, so unless they can somehow get money from somewhere other tha
71 Maverick623 : If you're trying to imply that just because a law can be changed, a court will uphold it... you are sorely mistaken. Again, you fail to grasp the mos
72 cmf : So how much do aviation pay in tax and how much do they get back?
73 Post contains images AirframeAS : Keep twisting my words. That is not what I said. I don't know why you keep doing this.
74 par13del : How exactly would they do this, fix the total price and only allow it to be changed by government decree? Whether a new fee or increase in the basic
75 Post contains images mayor : Sounds like "regulation", again, doesn't it??
76 AirframeAS : Im not debating that they do that and/or they could. I'm just saying that laws can be changed or amended in addition below: My whole point, in which
77 hatbutton : By "get back" do you mean in services from the FAA or something like that?
78 mayor : And it seems like the DOT is trying to lessen what it looks like the gov't. is adding on in taxes to your ticket. It may be on there, but it looks li
79 par13del : I think where most people struggle is that they now have to essentially "build" their fare, no one knows how to get the airlines to go back to an int
80 AirframeAS : It hasn't happened to me either, I hope it never happens in the future to me or anyone. And I do agree with you, Par13del with your post.
81 Raventech : I imagine another reason might be on the risk management side. If everyone packed multiple suitcases into one then ramp agents then increase risk of
82 cmf : How much money governments spend on aviation.
83 Maverick623 : Which has always been the case... so your "whole point" is moot. Also, it's not your "whole point", as you say this: If that were the only thing the
84 AirframeAS : It is customer friendly when the WHOLE price, the final price, is disclosed before the purchase happens, including when the fare is shown on the sear
85 GentFromAlaska : Not so fast. Since we are talking Acts; You might want to familiarize yourself with the the language in the Credit Card Accountability Responsibility
86 Maverick623 : And again, the whole price has ALWAYS been displayed before the purchase. And again, I can definitely see your side of the argument where the whole p
87 Post contains links cmf : Maybe I have missed it but can you please show where it is stated it cant be displayed prominently. http://www.pillsburylaw.com/siteFile...rotectionR
88 Post contains links hatbutton : According to this article the FAA spends about $15 billion a year on all civil aviation related activities which most certainly includes the enormous
89 cmf : How about money not spent through FAA, e.g. NASA. So aviation related. Don't think the numbers support your claim that the industry is every governme
90 par13del : So the significance of your question on NASA is.............. or are you claimimg that they are fully funded by the taxes collected on aviation? The
91 cmf : I am claiming they use tax money to support aviation and thus should be included when you count how much money government spend on aviation. That it
92 hatbutton : I'm saying commercial aviation. It is clear that commercial aviation pays way more in taxes than say general aviation. So yes, they do dig into the p
93 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/...n-Advertised-Prices-137064893.html IMO this bru-ha-ha has gone sideways in the realm of public perception. The
94 cmf : My gut feeling is that it is true but it doesn't confirm commercial aviation pay more than they receive? For that we need data from all government en
95 N1120A : The anti-tax crowd are just cutting off their nose despite their face. The real reason airlines - especially NK and G4 - would oppose this is because
96 GentFromAlaska : In some instances at $6 or more a gallon if you forget to fill up the rental car before you return it; unless you've entered into a separate fuel con
97 Post contains links hatbutton : I've given plenty of support. Taxes have increased from 7% to 20% of a total ticket, are still higher than other industries in the country, and the p
98 Post contains images OB1504 : But those government taxes and fees will be the same for any flight regardless of the airline, like sales tax. I've used it several times on NK when
99 Post contains links cmf : Sorry but what you have doe is provided a lot of isolated numbers that do not support your conclusion. For aviation to be the governments personal AT
100 Post contains links hatbutton : Commercial aviation taxes add up to $17 billion per year. 85% of those taxes go to the federal government and local airports, which are essentially g
101 cmf : You're still using limited data but lets use the numbers you provided above. Based on them there is 3.5 BUSD contribution above spend. While plenty o
102 hatbutton : It is not poor logic. It is a request the airlines have been asking for for years now and there has not been a full scale response. If you're going t
103 cmf : It is poor logic because it has nothing to do with aviation being governments ATM, as claimed. What you're bringing up is a different issue, importan
104 hatbutton : By government I was referring to the part of the government that supports aviation. Apologies if you took that as the entire government. And I still
105 Post contains links and images Mir : You're saying that Delta, United and American (i.e. the three largest carriers in the country) are in violation of DOT regulations: On DL's and UA's
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