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DL Poised To Swoop On Virgin Atlantic.  
User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3228 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38336 times:

The London Sunday Times is reporting today that Delta has made a secret approach to Singapore Airlines to by out their 49% stake in Virgin. "Aviation sources said that the two sides were back in negotiations but it was early days yet"
Singapore paid £600m for its stake back in 1999, both side declined to comment to the newspaper.

If that happened it would give SkyTeam a much larger presence at Heathrow.

(No link to article as it is pay to view)


you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
177 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38365 times:

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
If that happened it would give SkyTeam a much larger presence at Heathrow.

And why is that? I seemed to have missed VA being an active and significant member of Star.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38332 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 1):

If DL/AF were to buy into VS it would mean a big codeshare....and very likely VS would move into the DL/AF/KL/AZ ATI/JV.

question, could delta buy the 49%? wouldn't AF/KL have to do it?



yep.
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 38207 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 2):
question, could delta buy the 49%? wouldn't AF/KL have to do it?

How was SQ able to buy it in the first place then?


User currently offlinetheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 38070 times:

The article also says that AF/KLM may look to take a stake in the 51% that is not currently owned by SQ.

User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 38057 times:
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Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 2):
question, could delta buy the 49%? wouldn't AF/KL have to do it?

AF/KL, according to the article would buy a portion of the remaining 51%, with Branson perhaps holding on to some minor stake, which would essentially keep the airline under European control (51%).


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3167 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 38017 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 2):
question, could delta buy the 49%? wouldn't AF/KL have to do it?

UK (and now EU) airline ownership rules allow for 49% foreign (non-EU) investment. So 49% DL, 51% AF/KL would be allowed.


User currently offlineota1 From Germany, joined Apr 2008, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 37957 times:
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With SQ have changed it's strategy towards Virgin branded airlines lately (close alliance with and 10% in Virgin Australia and the code share agreement with Virgin America just announced last week) in addition to VS's latest developments (proposesed alliance membership, shorthaul flights, having reached a 4 Star ranking with SkyTrax again, etc.) I'm not too sure SQ is still looking to sell it's shareholing in Virgin Atlantic.

User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 37866 times:

I'd be interested to see what DL/AF's attitude towards the leisure operations at LGW/MAN/GLA would be if together they took control of VS. For DL/AF it's surely about LHR whereas the leisure operations seem to revolve around Virgin Holidays. Keep them so long as they are profitable? Seperate and dispose? Wasn't there a report late last year, possibly from The Sunday Times, that VS could be split into two?

(Obviously if Richard Branson retains a majority share in VS then the future of the leisure operations is probably far more 'secure')



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User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3572 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 37856 times:

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
If that happened it would give SkyTeam a much larger presence at Heathrow.
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 2):
If DL/AF were to buy into VS it would mean a big codeshare....and very likely VS would move into the DL/AF/KL/AZ ATI/JV.

SQ's biggest mistake was the terms and conditions attached to their 49% stake. Sir Richard Branson owns 51% via his offshore trusts and as his stake is larger than SQ's he gets to do what he wants when he wants and how he wants. All that the 49% stake gives is 49% of any profits that are earnt.

This is what makes the 49% stake unattractive to SQ and potentially unattractive to anyone else. The best that can be said of it is that it might provide a regular income stream. I'm sure however that if DL is as well managed as its executives consider it is they can find far better things to do with the money.


User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 965 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day ago) and read 37600 times:

I think the idea of a DL/AF/KL acquiring VS is fascinating, but DL/AF/KL/AZ/VS should determine their chances of getting approval for a JV before making an investment. I don't see any value in the partnership otherwise. Such an acquisition would be huge for DL given its current debt and pension obligations; it cannot afford to make a mistake. Given this, I question whether adding the VS flights to the scope of the JV would really enable it go against AA and BA at JFK. It would look good, yes, but in my mind, the VS brand seems to have lost a bit of its shine over the past decade and does not seem to be as popular with corporate customers. In that case, I'm not sure adding VS to the scope of the DL/AF/KL/AZ JV would necessarily add much in terms of market share or leverage. I would hope DL/AF/KL would seriously crunch the numbers on this one and weigh the risks before making a decision.

I did notice that The Times named Delta "Americas largest airline". Interesting. I thought that moniker was supposed to belong to United.


User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 23 hours ago) and read 37210 times:

Is Branson going to give up control of his pride and joy, VS? I dont think so. I dont think that 51% is going anywhere but remaining with Branson and the Virgin Group.

User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 22 hours ago) and read 36139 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 10):
I did notice that The Times named Delta "Americas largest airline". Interesting. I thought that moniker was supposed to belong to United.

Perhaps he meant after DL 'acquired' (or would that be 'merged with'? ) VS.

At the moment, UA is larger than DL.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3591 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 34105 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 12):

It depends on what metric is used for measurement I think.

UA was larger by every metric right after merging with CO, but they have shrunk some during integration.

Last I saw a couple of months ago, DL was larger in some metric areas, but I don't remember which.


User currently offlineboeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 34022 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 10):

Well, there are multiple ways an airline could be the world's largest. For example, DL still carry's more passengers than UA does, they also have a larger fleet. But UA has more passenger-kilometer's flown.

It is very hard to say who is the world's largest airline, there are multiple different ways that could be twisted.



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlineORDBOSEWR From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 33922 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 12):
Perhaps he meant after DL 'acquired' (or would that be 'merged with'?&nbsp Wink VS.

At the moment, UA is larger than DL.

I am not sure this is technically possible given all of the rules associated to ownership.
If VS would become a US based airline then it would be subject to all of the US bi-laterals and frankly that would kill VS.
It is more likely that DL would get the 49% and then AF-KL would get a few more % giving the alliance the ability to make all decisions, but VS would remain a EU based airline.

My big question is how does this really help DL? (besides the fact of keeping VS out of *A, which would be big for LHR fliers)

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 10):
I did notice that The Times named Delta "Americas largest airline". Interesting. I thought that moniker was supposed to belong to United.

But United isn't just the largest in the US, but the world (based on the most widely recognized metric, but it is argument that is never over)... So it just goes to prove that these reporters are asked to write on subjects they are not experts in.


User currently offlined93 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 33682 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 1):

It's simple really. VA joining Skyteam would increase the amount of Skyteam traffic at LHR. It's like math for airports.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 61
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 33554 times:

I guess it would make sense for both carriers on some levels, although it seems not to on others.

To start with the obvious, Virgin's pool of LHR slots is - to be sure - quite valuable, and the combination of Delta and Virgin would be a formidable #2 competitor in the U.S.-LHR market (albeit still dramatically far behind AA/BA). Coordinating their networks would allow the two carriers to optimize schedules in overlapping markets - JFK/BOS-LHR - and boost Delta's competitiveness in several important U.S. markets where LHR is a big local market (MIA and LAX). And, of course, Virgin's beyond-LHR connectivity to India/Mid East/Africa, plus soon several domestic and European/Near East markets, wouldn't hurt, either. For Virgin, connectivity from Delta - particularly over JFK - would open up a far larger network in the U.S. than they have ever had access to before, which could only help their strategically critical Atlantic network.

I think the value and logic for Virgin is obvious. On the other hand, though, I do question how much value this would really generate for Delta. I suppose if they are really that eager to get into the LHR market in a big way, buying into it via Virgin would probably be their best (only) option. Nonetheless, I am not sure if putting millions into an airline with a somewhat questionable long-term strategic direction would be such a smart investment. Plus, in terms of connectivity, only a certain portion of Virgin's U.S. network (JFK, BOS, MIA, LAX, possibly MCO and EWR) would be substantially relevant to Delta's network, while the rest of it (ORD, SFO, LAS, IAD, etc.) would be somewhat less relevant to the combined pair. As for connectivity over LHR, Virgin adds absolutely nothing that Delta doesn't already have via Air France and/or KLM - in fact in just about every beyond-LHR market, Air France and/or KLM already offers more and/or better connectivity than Virgin would or could.

Interesting ...


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 33456 times:

So, DL buys SG's 49% and AF/KL buys whatever SRB allows from the other 51%, if not the whole kit. It'll be a JV between DL and AF/KL/AZ/VS


Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 33034 times:

Quoting d93 (Reply 16):
It's simple really. VA joining Skyteam would increase the amount of Skyteam traffic at LHR. It's like math for airports.

No kidding, but SQ owning VS hasn't gotten them into Star. So it follows that just because DL bought a share, they're not going to jump into Sky.


User currently offlineDeltalaw From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 32548 times:

DL has become more aggressive recently with investment in foreign airlines (AM and G3). Those examples are much smaller stakes though...purchasing 49% of VS would be a huge capital outlay. I wonder what percentage of their 600 million SQ plans on trying to get back?

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7888 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 32287 times:

I'll believe it when I see it (not saying that in a skeptical way, but I know the reality behind most Delta rumors.) I do have a question though, would DL owning 49% and AF/KL owning 2+%, giving them at least 51%, allow them to call most of the shots? How much control would DL/AF/KL have?

There has to be assurances, I don't think DL is going to blow, what, 600mil pounds and just "hope" they'll get in a JV. Plus, what would be the regulatory hurdles, if there are any?

I'm cautious to say this would be very good news. Obviously, DL and partners can't be #1 to LHR with BA dominating the scene, but there is nothing wrong with being a strong (even if distant) #2... LHR is a very coveted market



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4369 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 32115 times:

As US carriers retake their rightful place at the very top of the global commercial aviation hierarchy, expect to see more proposals like this one.

A tie-up with VS makes good sense for Delta. Why? As the AA/BA JV cooperation deepens, and new United leverages its larger size to maximize financial upside on Heathrow flying, Delta is at risk on being an "odd man out" with a subpar number of frequencies and gateways to the number 1 European destination from the United States. The marketplace has increasingly made clear that going forward, victory in chasing the all-important premium traffic will primarily be had by carriers that offer a comprehensive "all in one" solution for flying to/from a given region of the world. Delta offers great service levels to continental Europe, but it stands to lose corporate contracts if it's not more competitive to the UK, and this is a way to get there.

And FWIW, should this tie-up occur, no one should expect either DL or VS to maintain the same patterns of USA-LHR flying that they offer today. I'd expect BOTH carriers to aggressively redeploy various fleet types to expand the number of US cities served from LHR.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2083 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 31931 times:

For DL and VS this would be a deal that would allow them to link-up and really take the competition to AA/BA (would still be market leader) and UA/AC.

In the core London-NY market the two carriers would be able to offer six flights a day, which gicen BA/AA are effectively running a LHR-JFK shuttle, and UA has a 5xDaily LHR-EWR service would be a key move. It would also strengthen massively SkyTeam in London.

VS/DL would serve BOS, JFK, EWR, IAD, MIA, ORD, DTW, MSP, ATL, SFO, LAX and YVR from LHR, with LAS and MCO from LGW. WHilst LHR would be key to a deal, a JV would help the LGW ops too. I don't think that it was coincidence that the AA/BA ATI deal saw BA go from 5xWeekly to Daily on the LGW-TPA route.

In a wider sense, a DL/VS tie-up would really strengthen SkyTeam in London, which given it's a huge O&D market would be a bit of a coup. AF/KL have the European feed tied up through CDG and AMS, but in terms of point-pount London would be a market that SkyTeam would get a much greater exposure to.

What's the benefit for VS? It would allow it to play the competition card, because with SkyTeam being the weakest alliance in the London market VS could legitimately say that it didn't want to join an alliance, but the way the aviation market is going standing alon e wasn't an option so it plans to join up with SkyTeam to take the fight to BA/AA (and the rest of oneworld) and Star Alliance, which it must be said has a pretty big LHR presence on international (which lets face it, despite the pending VS venture into UK domestic, is still where VS makes it bread and butter).



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 31332 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 17):

I do not think the network is the main motivating factor behind this acquisition. Virgin's network is secondary (perhaps even meaningless). The LHR slots is where the real value is in this transaction and is probably the main reason for DL exploring this opportunity.

For example, let's assume the SFO-LHR route is a money loser. The new owners could easily eliminate the route and associated costs (ie. labor, fuel, etc.) to stop the loss. Then they could route all passengers over another hub (which Virgin could not do on their own), while keeping the underlying AND appreciating asset - the LHR slot.

The key to this transaction is whether DL can get the 49% share at a reasonable price.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 31404 times:

Quoting avek00 (Reply 22):
As US carriers retake their rightful place at the very top of the global commercial aviation hierarchy, expect to see more proposals like this one.

Are you saying that the US carriers have some kind of birth right to be at the very top of the global commercial aviation hierarchy? That's what "rightful" means, right? How so? And what other US carriers are going to climb to the top next? UA, stuck in a long and painful merger? AA, in bankruptcy?

Quoting LOWS (Reply 19):
SQ owning VS hasn't gotten them into Star. So it follows that just because DL bought a share, they're not going to jump into Sky.

SQ is kind of a "dissident" airline inside *A, while DL leads (or co-leads with AF/KL) Sky Team. Hence the outcome would most likely be different.



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User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 29440 times:

Quoting avek00 (Reply 22):

What a ridiculous statement. Why is our rightful place at the top of aviation? What gave us that right and what have we done to keep it?

Prefect outsourcing and bankruptcy?


User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 29674 times:

The Telegraph also has a quite damning article on this saying that talk is that VIR has lost its way and is making losses...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...ke-control-of-Virgin-Atlantic.html


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 14 hours ago) and read 28568 times:

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 15):
I am not sure this is technically possible given all of the rules associated to ownership.
If VS would become a US based airline then it would be subject to all of the US bi-laterals and frankly that would kill VS.
It is more likely that DL would get the 49% and then AF-KL would get a few more % giving the alliance the ability to make all decisions, but VS would remain a EU based airline.

My big question is how does this really help DL? (besides the fact of keeping VS out of *A, which would be big for LHR fliers)

If DL buys 49% of VA, that doesn't mean that they would make it a US based carrier as per the EU foreign ownership rules, they would have more access to the LHR market with AF/KL making up the other 51% from what I can see.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 19):
No kidding, but SQ owning VS hasn't gotten them into Star. So it follows that just because DL bought a share, they're not going to jump into Sky.

I don't believe that the alliance issue needs to be addressed as VA is not currently in any alliance.

Quoting EricR (Reply 24):
I do not think the network is the main motivating factor behind this acquisition. Virgin's network is secondary (perhaps even meaningless). The LHR slots is where the real value is in this transaction and is probably the main reason for DL exploring this opportunity.

I agree.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 22):

As US carriers retake their rightful place at the very top of the global commercial aviation hierarchy, expect to see more proposals like this one.

What are you talking about? What rightful place do US carriers have at the top of the aviation hierarchy? I did not know they were ever close to being there.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinebomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 27644 times:

Quoting avek00 (Reply 22):

As US carriers retake their rightful place at the very top of the global commercial aviation hierarchy, expect to see more proposals like this one.

Even as an American, I think this statement is extremely naive. Even though the US is arguably the largest aviation market in the world, our Legacy carriers have shown time and time again that they're not top tier in the International marketplace. You are entitled to your opinion, but know you'll be open to ridicule with statements like this.

Peace   



AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4369 posts, RR: 19
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 27447 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 24):
I do not think the network is the main motivating factor behind this acquisition. Virgin's network is secondary (perhaps even meaningless). The LHR slots is where the real value is in this transaction and is probably the main reason for DL exploring this opportunity.

Slots at any airport are meaningless unless they are leveraged to build a strong network. VS and DL, acting alone, are both unable to build the comprehensive network needed to compete effectively against their enlarged competitors who enjoy any combination of greater slots, immunized cooperation, and/or superior fleet/capacity flexibility. Neither carrier, for instance, could likely make a solid go of a Texas-London flight acting alone, but I'd be shocked if a DL/VS JV didn't add IAH-LHR services within 2-3 years.

I'll agree with you that, in time, we would see some substantial shifts in flying as cooperation with DL/AF/KL got underway. For example, I could easily see some of VS' capacity to lower-yield cities like MCO shifted to take over some of DL's existing hub-LHR frequencies. Delta, in turn, can explore opening up LHR service from additional US cities, or else can move to take over some of VS' lower yield flying with smaller aircraft to reduce capacity (and thus drive up yields). With AF/KL, VS gains partners with which it can codeshare to all sorts of cities worldwide, as CDG and AMS are logical onward connecting points to many world cities for the ex-UK traveler.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlinen515cr From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 26848 times:

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
Delta has made a secret approach to Singapore Airlines to by out their 49% stake in Virgin.

Guess it's not that secret, eh?


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 26757 times:

Quoting n515cr (Reply 31):
Guess it's not that secret, eh?

Not any more, IF true  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 26668 times:

Whose kidding who here. Hell will freeze over before SRB gives up his controlling stake in VS. DL can buy 49% if they want but dictating the future of VS is not going to be down to then. VS is very much SRB baby.

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 61
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 26625 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 24):
For example, let's assume the SFO-LHR route is a money loser. The new owners could easily eliminate the route and associated costs (ie. labor, fuel, etc.) to stop the loss. Then they could route all passengers over another hub (which Virgin could not do on their own), while keeping the underlying AND appreciating asset - the LHR slot.

I doubt we would see much wholesale shifting like that. Part of what Virgin would bring to Delta regarding LHR would be scale and network breadth (specifically in the LHR-U.S. market) that Delta simply cannot ever achieve on its own. Dismantling much of Virgin's LHR-U.S. network ex-Delta hubs wouldn't make much sense in that context. In addition, part of the additive benefit Virgin would hypothetically bring to Delta/Air France/KLM on the U.S. POS is the expanded scope of new nonstop flights to the U.S. which could also be leveraged with U.S. corporate contracts (in addition to those in the U.K.). Again, that would tend to imply to me not much reductions in schedule for Virgin's LHR-U.S. network.

I think more than anything else a Delta-Virgin alliance would mean optimization of the overlap (JFK/BOS-LHR) and integration of Virgin's larger LHR-U.S. network into Delta's U.S. corporate sales network, plus greater feed for Virgin at U.S. gateways and for Delta over LHR.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 30):
Neither carrier, for instance, could likely make a solid go of a Texas-London flight acting alone, but I'd be shocked if a DL/VS JV didn't add IAH-LHR services within 2-3 years.

And I would be shocked if a Delta-Virgin alliance did add IAH-LHR at any time. The market is big, but it's already been spoken for by the five daily flights already offered by the two airlines with massive hubs at either end of the route. I do not believe Delta-Virgin would be able to compete in that market.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7445 posts, RR: 17
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 26545 times:

Would some of the VS A340s be transferred to DL, then, given DL's fleet buying habits?         


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User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 25660 times:

I agree SRB would never give up control of VS..this thread is alot of speculation and really run off the rails

User currently offlineDL747400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 25626 times:

Regardless of what Virgin does with their A340 fleet, Delta doesn't operate the A340, never has and never will.

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8340 posts, RR: 7
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 25418 times:
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Quoting LOWS (Reply 3):
How was SQ able to buy it in the first place then?
Quoting commavia (Reply 34):
I doubt we would see much wholesale shifting like that. Part of what Virgin would bring to Delta regarding LHR would be scale and network breadth (specifically in the LHR-U.S. market) that Delta simply cannot ever achieve on its own. Dismantling much of Virgin's LHR-U.S. network ex-Delta hubs wouldn't make much sense in that context. In addition, part of the additive benefit Virgin would hypothetically bring to Delta/Air France/KLM on the U.S. POS is the expanded scope of new nonstop flights to the U.S. which could also be leveraged with U.S. corporate contracts (in addition to those in the U.K.). Again, that would tend to imply to me not much reductions in schedule for Virgin's LHR-U.S. network.

The only USA to LHR gateway VA and DL have in common is JFK, the VA network compliments the DL routes to LHR very nicely. DL & VA may let Virgin fly all the JFK to LHR flights with additional frequencies using DL slots at LHR.


User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 25508 times:

Hi All,

Sky News just did a breaking news story that Singapore Airlines has announced/confirmed they are talking to an interested party(ies) about their 49% stake. This could be very interesting.

Regards,

Team



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlineglobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 926 posts, RR: 3
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 25338 times:

I really hope this is a reality. Personally I think that the entire Virgin brand would be a great addition to SkyTeam. VS and VA. Now as for VX, they do not really have anything to offer except that they are a fun airline with the best product out there in my opinion but are hemorrhaging money. With the Virgin Group and if EY would join, SkyTeam would really be a nice contender.


Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
User currently offlinenickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 10 hours ago) and read 24732 times:

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 37):

Regardless of what Virgin does with their A340 fleet, Delta doesn't operate the A340, never has and never will.

Interestingly, NW did once order the A340 although it did not take delivery of or operate the A340. I too can not see DL operating the A340.


User currently offlineTriple7LR From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 23980 times:

Here's coverage by Bloomberg:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...stake-from-singapore-airlines.html

sounds serious.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 23797 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 35):

No. VS is replacing the A340 for a reason

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 38):
The only USA to LHR gateway VA and DL have in common is JFK, the VA network compliments the DL routes to LHR very nicely. DL & VA may let Virgin fly all the JFK to LHR flights with additional frequencies using DL slots at LHR.

Boston......



yep.
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 23710 times:

LHR access is king. I'm certain DL would love more access to it. This could all become very interesting. DL to battle the AA/BA alliance.


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 21411 times:

   Hope this becomes reality!

User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 2 hours ago) and read 19957 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 39):
Sky News just did a breaking news story that Singapore Airlines has announced/confirmed they are talking to an interested party(ies) about their 49% stake.

Is that really news? SQ has been looking to offload the VS stake for years.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently onlinevhtje From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 2 hours ago) and read 19819 times:
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How would this impact "the other Virgins"?

I don't have any knowledge on how SRB structures his business interests - are his airline stakes all held independently of each other, or does VS actually hold stakes in the other Virgin-branded airlines?


User currently onlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 2 hours ago) and read 19647 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 17):

I think the value and logic for Virgin is obvious. On the other hand, though, I do question how much value this would really generate for Delta

I don't think you'll have to look at Dl solely. If DL purchases a stake in VS, it would benefit Skyteam as a whole as it can distribtute the slots Skyteam has at LHR more efficiently (at present AF/KL has one or two daily slot sitting flights, which it can't use more efficiently). Moreover, if you look at this from a Skyteam perspective you have an airline which can feed in the US, has domestic UK flights and feeds MUs PVG hub. As such it can offer its corporate clients more reason not to fly the competition.


User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 19600 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 39):
Sky News just did a breaking news story that Singapore Airlines has announced/confirmed they are talking to an interested party(ies) about their 49% stake. This could be very interesting.

Is it breaking news, Sky news are so behind the curve because............

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 46):
Is that really news? SQ has been looking to offload the VS stake for years.

Exactly. It might be breaking news to Sky but we all know this has been on the cards for years.

Heres a thing though, DL apparently say they want to buy the 49% from SQ but VS retains 51% which it will retain as SRB will not give up control of VS IMHO. Whats to say that VS says well done for buying SQs stake DL but actually we have already made a decision....we are joining Star. THey cannot force VS to do what they want to do, its all going to be interesting for sure.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5192 posts, RR: 6
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 19536 times:

Quoting vhtje (Reply 47):
How would this impact "the other Virgins"?

Well Delta already have a Joint Venture with Virgin Australia across the pacific.


User currently offlineflybry From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 19521 times:

Wasn't it not that long ago there were rumors DL, AF/KLM were in talks with Jet Airways of India to purchase a stake in that airline, bring it into SkyTeam and have it join their ATI across the atlantic?

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 19533 times:

Quoting vhtje (Reply 47):
How would this impact "the other Virgins"?

Not at all. Totally different companies with separate entries in SRB's protfolio, and no cross investment. There isn't really much overlap anyway -- VA has their complex range of partnerships with NZ/EY/SQ/DL and VX is pretty small scale internationally.


User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 19563 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 49):

Heres a thing though, DL apparently say they want to buy the 49% from SQ but VS retains 51% which it will retain as SRB will not give up control of VS IMHO. Whats to say that VS says well done for buying SQs stake DL but actually we have already made a decision....we are joining Star. THey cannot force VS to do what they want to do, its all going to be interesting for sure.

I am fairly positive that if DL were to purchase this stake, they would already have agreements in place for AF/KL to take a 2-3% stake as well with the understanding of joining SkyTeam and the DL/AF/KL/AZ joint venture.

Now, will SRB buy this? It really comes down to ego over business sense. To have a strong US connecting partner along with an alliance that is strong in China could be very beneficial.

However, Ridgeway did just do an interview where he lauded Star's praises. It could have been a ploy to dissuad SkyTeam as I believe VS has always been more interested in Star, but it does not seem to have detered Delta.

While I think this deal is a long way from being sealed and still rather unlikely, would anyone care to speculate what would happen at Heathrow? Would VS move over to Terminal 4 and Terminal 4 only be for SkyTeam carriers? Or would DL/AF/KL relocate?



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlinedelta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 19209 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 49):
Heres a thing though, DL apparently say they want to buy the 49% from SQ but VS retains 51% which it will retain as SRB will not give up control of VS IMHO. Whats to say that VS says well done for buying SQs stake DL but actually we have already made a decision....we are joining Star. THey cannot force VS to do what they want to do, its all going to be interesting for sure.

I don't believe for a minute that DL would pour money into an airline unless they were guaranteed access to LHR and a SkyTeam membership. I'm sure SRB would be part of the discussions, otherwise it would be a complete waste of time and money. Is Virgin traded publicly? Do they have a BOD? If so, most agreements this large would include seats on the BOD.
OTOH, if UA was smart, they would buy the stake. I think Star + VS would really be competitive with BA/AA. But, we shall see.



From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 19052 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 53):
Now, will SRB buy this? It really comes down to ego over business sense.

Not many people have a bigger ego in the UK than SRB and as I have stated previously there is more chance of hell freezing over than SRB giving up control to a third party.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 53):
However, Ridgeway did just do an interview where he lauded Star's praises.

And thats the route I fully expect VS to take..............to Star.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 54):
Is Virgin traded publicly?

Nope.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 54):
OTOH, if UA was smart, they would buy the stake.

They dont have to be smart, I think VS will join Star anyway, not least for the reason stated above and so what if SQ wants to sell their stake to whomever, whether that be DL or whoever, VS are in control of their own destiny here having a 51% controlling stake.


User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1566 posts, RR: 10
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 19076 times:

Quote,
"Is Branson going to give up control of his pride and joy, VS? I dont think so. I dont think that 51% is going anywhere but remaining with Branson and the Virgin Group".

Wrong. The defining business legasy of R Branson is his "exit strategies".It does not matter whether it is his founding area - Music or his second love Airplanes. If the price is right he will sell. That is the one certaintly.

He is smart enough to know (plus the losses he is now racking up).That the time has come so sell to a bigger group. He will (I believe) sell part/ or indeed all of his own shareholding depending on the nature ofthe deal.

Reading W Walsh this morning - he now believes that 3rd runway for Heathrow will not happen. (That leaves Gatwick second runway a near cetainty).So Heathrow will become the First Tier airport hub and Gatwick the second. So the race will be on for the (first tier) Heathrow slots. This is a fantastic (only) way to get them - the biding will be strong.. Richard will not pass up on this chance of a lifetime.

He may well retain the leasure aspect - why not. But he will base it at Gatwick.

BTW Re Gatwick. It is I believe worth noting the presence there of Easy Jet. This presence with a 2nd runway could be expanded greatly. As such it (plus others) could provide the European "spokes" to the Gatwick "Hub". People try to ignore the success of New York's dual (not twin) independant hub split. It works there. It could so easily work for London. It's called (as in NY) -choice. Thus it will be good for everybody especially consumers.


User currently offlinedavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18297 times:

I think this deal is a long way from "certain." To say the least, it will draw massive interest of regulators on both sides of the Atlantic.

Virgin + ST makes much more sense, (no matter what share splits end up looking like).

A serious question (if DL/AF/KL) were to buy Virgin, would Virgin remain a separate company or be absorbed (effectively) into DL/AF/KL?

I do think that Virgin presents a very attractive target do to the LHR slots and the network that could be built up with a strong ST presence in LHR/LGW.

Second tier markets (MCO) could switch to a 757 for example if a JV were formed. One would have to look at Virgin's routes and decide what to keep and what can be reached some other way.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlinehiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2172 posts, RR: 3
Reply 58, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18288 times:

I am more inclined to think of spoiler as far as DL's move...didn't they make a run on VS before? Lay a bet they are tyring to usurp a deal that is brewing with other parties. SQ has sposedly had their piece up for years but never seemed to be serious.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7888 posts, RR: 52
Reply 59, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18273 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 53):
I am fairly positive that if DL were to purchase this stake, they would already have agreements in place for AF/KL to take a 2-3% stake as well with the understanding of joining SkyTeam and the DL/AF/KL/AZ joint venture.
Quoting delta2ual (Reply 54):
I don't believe for a minute that DL would pour money into an airline unless they were guaranteed access to LHR and a SkyTeam membership. I'm sure SRB would be part of the discussions, otherwise it would be a complete waste of time and money.

   All airlines make mistakes, but DL/AF/KL would have to be pretty stupid to just go ahead and buy the 49% without making prior arrangements. Companies make wrong decisions all the time, but at least they are backed up by logic and rationality (most of the time)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3264 posts, RR: 35
Reply 60, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18183 times:

If you assume that SRB wants to stay in the airline business, you are assuming a LOT.

He wants to exit gracefully, with a full wallet and an intact ego. Show me a carrier within Star that is willing to pay a reasonable price for a controlling share in Virgin. The truth is that the list of buyers is going to be very short. It is likely to include Delta and perhaps a Middle East carrier or two. No one else cares because Virgin can provide little strategic value to most carriers.

For Delta, however, there is a lot of value in improving its position in the US-UK market, particularly the JFK-LHR route. If the past few years have taught us anything, it is that Delta has a plan that is focused on increasing is premium share in NYC.


User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 61, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18036 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 60):
He wants to exit gracefully, with a full wallet and an intact ego.

How does he get a full wallet when its SQ stake that is being sold not SRBs?


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7888 posts, RR: 52
Reply 62, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 17981 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 61):
Quoting jetlanta (Reply 60):
He wants to exit gracefully, with a full wallet and an intact ego.

How does he get a full wallet when its SQ stake that is being sold not SRBs?

I think he was talking about part or all of the remaining 51%, the part that needs to be purchased in part or in full in order to control VS with the other 49% chunk



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 63, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 17998 times:

Quoting bomber996 (Reply 29):
Even as an American, I think this statement is extremely naive. Even though the US is arguably the largest aviation market in the world,

Most forecasts indicate that China will take over from the U.S. as the largest airline market within the next 10 years or so.


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2083 posts, RR: 3
Reply 64, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 17192 times:

Quoting avek00 (Reply 30):
Slots at any airport are meaningless unless they are leveraged to build a strong network. VS and DL, acting alone, are both unable to build the comprehensive network needed to compete effectively against their enlarged competitors who enjoy any combination of greater slots, immunized cooperation, and/or superior fleet/capacity flexibility. Neither carrier, for instance, could likely make a solid go of a Texas-London flight acting alone, but I'd be shocked if a DL/VS JV didn't add IAH-LHR services within 2-3 years.

I'll agree with you that, in time, we would see some substantial shifts in flying as cooperation with DL/AF/KL got underway. For example, I could easily see some of VS' capacity to lower-yield cities like MCO shifted to take over some of DL's existing hub-LHR frequencies. Delta, in turn, can explore opening up LHR service from additional US cities, or else can move to take over some of VS' lower yield flying with smaller aircraft to reduce capacity (and thus drive up yields). With AF/KL, VS gains partners with which it can codeshare to all sorts of cities worldwide, as CDG and AMS are logical onward connecting points to many world cities for the ex-UK traveler.

That's pretty much how I see it. However, why is there an assumption that DL taking a 49% stake in VS would lead to the VS network being decimated and DL taking the slots for its own use? Surely DL taking a 49% stake would be about getting leverage in the London-USA market, plus to strengthen SkyTeam in other areas.

LHR-BOS - Both VS and DL operate one flight a day. If thet linked up, then if I read the AA/BA ATI deal properly DL could apply for remedy slots and add its second BOS-LHR flight back, while VS could redeploy its aircraft/slot elsewhere with a full codeshare (and likely in time own ATI) with DL.

LHR-JFK - Both VS and DL operate 3xDaily on his route, so together they'd provide a 6xDaily service, which would be much more competitive to AA/BA on LHR-JFK, and the 5xDaily LHR-EWR service UA operates for a better (and more lucrative through corporate contracts) share of the London - New York market.

LHR-EWR - DL would be able to offer its frequent fliers access to a new route through codeshare on VS.

LHR-IAD - DL would be able to offer its frequent fliers access to a new route through codeshare on VS.

LHR-ORD - DL would be able to offer its frequent fliers access to a new route through codeshare on VS.

LHR-MIA - DL would be able to offer its frequent fliers access to a new route through codeshare on VS. I'm not sure if DL could apply to restart the nonstop using a BA/AA remedial slot now that US will operate MIA-CLT-LHR.

LHR-LAX - DL would be able to offer its frequent fliers access to a new route through codeshare on VS.

LHR-SFO - DL would be able to offer its frequent fliers access to a new route through codeshare on VS.

LHR-DTW - VS would be able to offer its frequent fliers access to a new route through codeshare on DL, with onward connections through this DL hub.

LHR-MSP - VS would be able to offer its frequent fliers access to a new route through codeshare on DL, with onward connections through this DL hub.

LHR-ATL - VS would be able to offer its frequent fliers access to a new route through codeshare on DL, with onward connections through this DL hub.

MCO that people have mentioned is a LGW route, so while DL would be able to offer nonstop service on a codeshare to London I very much doubt there would be any desire to add a LHR service. LAS would also be available to DL to offer nonstop London service (again to LGW) via a VS codeshare.

When I talk about codeshare, I fully expect that DL taking a 49% stake would be a first step to VS coming in on the AF/KL/DL ATI deal across the Atlantic, and providing SkyTeam with greater leverage in the London - USA market. SkyTeam would also benefit from the fact VS offers service to NRT, PVG, AND OLD: Hong Kong - Kai Tak International (HKG / VHHH) (closed), China - Hong Kong">HKG, DEL, BOM, LOS and JNB. VS would be able to build partnerships with SkyTeam partners to get access for it's frequent fliers (and corporate fliers) to new markets, e.g. in China through PVG with codesahres on MU; to ICN and access to new markets in Japan and Korea through codeshares with KE, etc, etc.

I know that VS has codeshares with various Star carriers at present, and that there is a great Anet belief that VS and Star are a match made in heaven, but would VS joining Star really be what fits best with the image that VS presents (little guy taking on the big corporate bullies)? VS trying to merge with/acquire BD was all about getting the leverage to stay a standalone carrier at LHR. That failed, and with the BA/ATI deal in place, the demise of BD and the fact Star is a strong second at LHR how can VS position itself to stay in the game and take on the two alliances? That's where a deal with DL (and AF/KL through the TATL ATI) allows VS to play the PR game it is so good at and build a business model that would enable VS to remain in the game as a longhaul "independent".

How would it do that? VS and DL are the weakest players in the TATL market against AA/BA and UA/AC. Linking up with DL gets access to more point-to-point markets out of London, while VS gets new destinations in the USA to offer its fliers through point-point flying and one-stop via DL hubs. VS would then be able to say that the US and EU authorities forced its hand by approving other deals, and it is linking up with DL to ensure that people flying to/from London can have real options and not be overcharged by the AA/BA and UA/AC duopoly, etc, etc.

Lets not forget that over the years VS has painted itself into a very tight corner. It had a decade to come up with a deal to merge with BD and failed. It has been vocal against a AA/BA tie-up fr over a decade but failed to come up with a strategy to compete when that tie-up was approved. VS joining Star? Willie Walsh would be laughing his socks off at the publicity he could fire at VS for linking up with Star at LHR, and he was the first CEO of BA (and now at IAG) who was prepared not to let VS spout its rhetoric without a comeback.

My final point is that for all I detest the VS/Sir Richard Branson style of "woe-is-me" publicity, I would like to see VS find a way to secure its future in the long term, and actually a tie-up with DL would be the way it could do that AND keep it's stance as the "consumer's friend" by allowing the smallest of the three alliances to up the game with oneworld and Star Alliance, which would be good for the UK consumer (and those from overseas who want to visit this country, even if only London).



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 17093 times:

Branson may want to leave the industry..and ive not read anything stating their is any truth to that, but assuming it was i believe he to be a man of honor and passion. His airline is his major passion and whether he wants to be even more behind the scenes or not i dont believe , if at for not any other reason, for his honor that he would want to sell out and then allow his creation (a great one at that) to be dismantled and cease to exist...

User currently offlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16718 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 17):
Nonetheless, I am not sure if putting millions into an airline with a somewhat questionable long-term strategic direction would be such a smart investment

Err, DL buying a stake in VS and making it part of the AF/KL/DL JV will give VS the long-term strategic direction that you talk about!

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 23):
In the core London-NY market the two carriers would be able to offer six flights a day, which gicen BA/AA are effectively running a LHR-JFK shuttle, and UA has a 5xDaily LHR-EWR service would be a key move. It would also strengthen massively SkyTeam in London

Well VS & DL operate 7 times daily JFK-LHR now, plus VS flights to EWR. Could VS pull out of EWR and transfer all flights to JFK giving VS/DL 9 flights per day? If so that WOULD be good competiton to BA/AA


User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3264 posts, RR: 35
Reply 67, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16580 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 61):
How does he get a full wallet when its SQ stake that is being sold not SRBs?

This...

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 62):
I think he was talking about part or all of the remaining 51%, the part that needs to be purchased in part or in full in order to control VS with the other 49% chunk


User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3264 posts, RR: 35
Reply 68, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 16183 times:

The Economist has weighed in...

Quote:
Since Singapore Airlines, a Star Alliance member, owns 49% of Virgin Atlantic, some think Star is Virgin’s most likely bedfellow. But Virgin’s route network overlaps with those of existing Star Alliance members in too many places: Virgin would clash with ANA on flights to Tokyo, with South African Airways on flights to Johannesburg, and with United-Continental to the US. It is hard to see where Virgin could complement Star’s existing operations, and in any case Singapore Airlines seems disillusioned by Virgin’s latest travails and may divest its shareholding.

Of the world’s two other alliances, oneworld is dominated by British Airways and is therefore not an option, so SkyTeam may be Virgin’s last hope. Two years ago, Sir Richard appointed Deutsche Bank to scrutinise a potential deal with AirFrance-KLM and Delta, SkyTeam’s chief members, but talks failed when the Virgin boss demanded a substantial annual fee for the licensing of the Virgin brand. This time, he may have no choice.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2012/12/virgin-atlantic


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 69, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 16067 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 55):

I think your just think what you want to happen vs what will happen. If DL and AF push SRB the cash he will dump his shares faster than you can spell his name. If he isn't willing to sell....Delta wont buy into the airline.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 60):

This.
Delta isn't going to buy part of VS only to have it go into star and codeshare/JV with United. That is one of the more foolish things I have heard.



yep.
User currently onlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5636 posts, RR: 6
Reply 70, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 15904 times:

Quoting parapente (Reply 56):

Quote,
"Is Branson going to give up control of his pride and joy, VS? I dont think so. I dont think that 51% is going anywhere but remaining with Branson and the Virgin Group".

Wrong. The defining business legasy of R Branson is his "exit strategies".It does not matter whether it is his founding area - Music or his second love Airplanes. If the price is right he will sell. That is the one certaintly.

Exactly.
Meanwhile over on this side of the planet an SRB Virgin stake is also in play, which MAYBE related. SQ & EY both want to increase their stake in VBH (the actual listed company which ownes the actual airlines) to 20% each. There is an article in today's Sydney Morning Herald on it. SRB still holds 23+% of VBH. A deal where SRB, SQ, DL & other airlines realign their holding with SQ out of VS and into VBH, DL 49% of VS and maybe with AF/KL with 2% to 51% of VS and SRB sitting on several billion dollars and a stake in VS & VBH, or even more billions and no airline stake.
As Parapente says SRB is about exit strategies and this could be a beauty!

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15541 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 69):
If he isn't willing to sell....Delta wont buy into the airline.

And thats why i dont think this deal will get off the ground, because SRB will not sell his share.....has he ever said anywhere that he would???


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 72, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15540 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 71):
And thats why i dont think this deal will get off the ground, because SRB will not sell his share.....has he ever said anywhere that he would???

two things
1) His airline keeps posting losses then he will sell or watch it die and sell the assets
2) I have yet to meet a human that can not be bought.

has he been shopping his stake? No, but he has hired someone to look into DL and AF/KL. That shows me he is at least fairly willing to at least sit down and talk.

"Two years ago, Sir Richard appointed Deutsche Bank to scrutinise a potential deal with AirFrance-KLM and Delta, SkyTeam’s chief members, but talks failed when the Virgin boss demanded a substantial annual fee for the licensing of the Virgin brand."
This tells me he is at least willing to sit down and talk. The more losses he takes the lower his price will be.



yep.
User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15484 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 72):

"Two years ago, Sir Richard appointed Deutsche Bank to scrutinise a potential deal with AirFrance-KLM and Delta, SkyTeam’s chief members, but talks failed when the Virgin boss demanded a substantial annual fee for the licensing of the Virgin brand."
This tells me he is at least willing to sit down and talk. The more losses he takes the lower his price will be.

I agree, it seems SRB is slowly trying to change the business model of his airline. In the last months:
-> a study of a potential deal with AF-KL + Delta (through Deutsche Bank) was initiated
-> SRB mentionned VS would soon select and join a global alliance
-> the resumption of the BOM route with more compatible USA bound transfers is an intempt to make their LHR operations more hub oriented

IMO, all these points show an intent of shifting from a pure P2P strategy to a more globalized and "inter-connected" airline. Probably against SRB's hope to keep his original business model, but the economic reality will win..


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 74, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15450 times:

Quoting AF185 (Reply 73):

and the attempt at some type of a short haul network....



yep.
User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3228 posts, RR: 2
Reply 75, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15111 times:

Would be interested in knowing how Delta plan to finace the buyout,if they do go ahead.
Are they cash rich at the moment,probably not they're an airline.
Go to the banks? Sell something?



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3264 posts, RR: 35
Reply 76, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 14963 times:

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 75):
Would be interested in knowing how Delta plan to finace the buyout,if they do go ahead.
Are they cash rich at the moment,probably not they're an airline.
Go to the banks? Sell something?

$5.1 Billion in unrestricted liquidity as of the end of September 2012.

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1742


User currently offlinecoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1175 posts, RR: 2
Reply 77, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 14958 times:
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Delta has brought their debt level down from $17bn to about $11bn USD at present over the past 3-4 years, is sitting on unrestricted liquidity (cash and cash equivalents including committed undrawn credit lines) in excess of US$5.1bn, and more importantly is generating profits, in the most recent quarter achieving effectively a $1bn net profit i(in a 3 month period!) on a GAAP basis. I suspect they are on track for a pretty good 4th quarter. October 2012 reflected a 5.5% increase in PRASM in spite of Hurricane Sandy and we should get some initial indications of November performance in the next coupple days. The Trainer refinery could be very positive this quarter. It remained in continuous operation during hurricane Sandy and the jet fuel crack spread seems higher than ever, so Delta should really benefit from lower fuel costs than competitors. I think they could just write a check!

Late breaking: Delta today announced Nov 2012 preliminary results, with a 2.5% increase in PRASM. However they state that Sandy slowed the ramp up of trainer so jet fuel prices averaged about 3.20-3.25/gal. Sandy should cut profits by about 25mm in Nov. Completion factor was 99.6% and on time percentage was 90.5%. They allude to continued corporate revenue gains for accounting for the increase in PRASM as well as good Thanskgiving holiday results. For more details: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1793

[Edited 2012-12-04 07:16:27]


The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3228 posts, RR: 2
Reply 78, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 14826 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 76):
Quoting coronado (Reply 77):

That is really very impressive numbers.Well done Delta   



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 79, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14335 times:

Sir Richard Branson said he was willing to sell down his stake in Virgin Atlantic nearly 18 months ago.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...rike-action-over-pay-ceo-says.html

Quote:
Richard Branson said he’s prepared to reduce his stake in Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. to aid the U.K. carrier’s search for an alliance partner.

Branson, who owns 51 percent of Virgin Atlantic stock, said he’ll always be “a major shareholder” in the Crawley, England- based company and that his preferred option is for Singapore Airlines Ltd. to reduce its 49 percent holding.

“If I had to sell a few shares and get the right alliance for Virgin Atlantic I think I would,” the entrepreneur said today in an interview in Miami. “But it’s more likely that we’d get Singapore Airlines to sell a few of their shares and that would be the way we would sort it out going forward.”

Whether he is prepared to let Delta and Air-France KLM collectively gain control (as suggested by the Financial Times today) is another matter. There must be some substance behind the Sunday Times story. The Financial Times and other news sources seem confident there is.


User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14165 times:

I wonder if this will quietly die like everything else has with Virgin (joining an alliance, prior Delta deal) or if we will hear something more on this shortly.

As a SkyTeam flyer based in London, I would personally love it



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlinecloudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 814 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 13747 times:

I am interested in hearing Virgin's response. According to what I have read anyways, this is Delta making a move, not so much Virgin seeking.

As a Us Airways flyer, I would rather keep them as a partner. DL already has enough strong European partners and London flights.



"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7445 posts, RR: 17
Reply 82, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 13752 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 43):
No. VS is replacing the A340 for a reason

I was making a joke   



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 930 posts, RR: 1
Reply 83, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 13727 times:

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 81):
DL already has enough strong European partners and London flights.

True about the Europe Partners with KL and AF but I think DL or Skyteam in this matter whats more service to LHR which is a One World fortress and star alliance as a good amount of traffic at the airport as well.

I think AF and KL should look into adding VA into the KLAF group.

DL will just redeem the benefits of the codesharing.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 84, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 13649 times:

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 75):

Not only does Delta have ~5B they can spend....for whatever reason airlines always seem to be able to find money for stuff like this. (same way another US airlines can order a crap ton of planes then go into BK months later....)

Some fool is always ready to write a check for airlines.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 82):

I figured but you just never know with some of these people.



yep.
User currently offlinewolfpacker From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 354 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 13025 times:

Here is an article, opinion?, on the talks.

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/12/05/virgin-delta-airlines


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12885 times:

Quoting globalflyer (Reply 40):
I really hope this is a reality. Personally I think that the entire Virgin brand would be a great addition to SkyTeam. VS and VA. Now as for VX, they do not really have anything to offer except that they are a fun airline with the best product out there in my opinion but are hemorrhaging money. With the Virgin Group and if EY would join, SkyTeam would really be a nice contender.

If this were the case, would DL be able to interline their connections at both LAX and HNL? Or am I thinking about the wrong airline.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinenickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 12586 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 86):
If this were the case, would DL be able to interline their connections at both LAX and HNL? Or am I thinking about the wrong airline.

I don't think any of the Virgin airlines fly to HNL.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5935 posts, RR: 9
Reply 88, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12540 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 84):
Not only does Delta have ~5B they can spend

Just to clarify something on DLs cash position they have around 3.2 billion in cash/short term investments the rest is a 1.9 billion dollar line of credit that they can tap if they need it. While they have more then enough liquidity to purchase 49% of VS they can't simply spend 5.1 billion or even half that and remain in business. Every company has a certain level of liquidity that they have to have on hand simply for day to day operations and to stay in compliance with their credit card and loan covenants. Using a few educated guesses that's somewhere between 1.5 and 2 billion dollars for an airline the size of DL (and UA for that matter)...

Quoting nickofatlanta (Reply 87):
I don't think any of the Virgin airlines fly to HNL.

They don't...



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12561 times:

That CNN fortune article is the worst article I have ever read. Here is a quote;

"And if you think Sir Richard Branson is going to let Delta passengers from Chattanooga into his exclusive "clubhouse" lounge in Heathrow's Terminal 3, you better think again. Not even first class passengers on Singapore Airlines can gain entry."

Why on earth would SQ pax in LHR T3 want to use VS's lounge when they can use SQ's!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have never ever heard such diarroegh from a supposedly intelligent source. I will now view anything with CNN attached to it as utter shit.


User currently offlinedeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1647 posts, RR: 1
Reply 90, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12507 times:

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 89):
That CNN fortune article is the worst article I have ever read

I agree! Read it this morning and was shocked. In addition to what you quote is it me or WHERE on this green planet did Branson or anyone at Virgin suggest that they would hand over their prized Heathrow slots to Delta in such a deal. I was shocked CNN so nonchalantly assumes this and suggests this in the article as well as inneuendo that DL is seeking 100%. i


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 91, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12486 times:

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 90):
I agree! Read it this morning and was shocked. In addition to what you quote is it me or WHERE on this green planet did Branson or anyone at Virgin suggest that they would hand over their prized Heathrow slots to Delta in such a deal. I was shocked CNN so nonchalantly assumes this and suggests this in the article as well as inneuendo that DL is seeking 100%.

Well, if DL gets the 49% from SQ and AF/KL get 2-3% from Virgin, would they not be in a controlling position and could get whatever slots they wanted?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinedeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1647 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12350 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 91):

Well, if DL gets the 49% from SQ and AF/KL get 2-3% from Virgin, would they not be in a controlling position and could get whatever slots they wanted?

Is Branson really thinking about giving up his control?


User currently offlinenotdownnlocked From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 935 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12372 times:

My hope is that VS joins Skyteam and codeshares with DL and perhaps tries to get into the JV with AF/KL/DL/AZ. If DL and it's Atlantacentric Atlantans get hold of VS you will see 60 flights daily from ATL-LHR all the while proclaiming that "We can get you from LHR/India/any VS city to anywhere in the USA via our convienient hub in ATL." That would include the dismantling and stripping VS of its assets. LHR to DL would become the equivalent of MEM/CVG/MCO/DFW and other hubs with frequent flights to ATL. Of course this would only happen if DL/AF was able to rid VS of Branson.

User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12334 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 33):
Whose kidding who here. Hell will freeze over before SRB gives up his controlling stake in VS. DL can buy 49% if they want but dictating the future of VS is not going to be down to then. VS is very much SRB baby.

Then no deal will happen. I mean, do you really think DL is silly enough to buy that 49% without acquiring some input into the direction of VS?


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 95, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12341 times:

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 93):
LHR to DL would become the equivalent of MEM/CVG/MCO/DFW and other hubs with frequent flights to ATL.

Are you serious?? The reason that DL wants this is for the LHR slots. Why would they dismantle the prime reason that they wanted it in the first place?  


BTW, the reason they "dismantled" the DFW hub wasn't because of the ATL hub. Financially, things weren't going to well for us and a hub had to go. It was between us in SLC and DFW and SLC won out, mostly because of its efficiency and that fact that DFW had the burden of having to compete with AA.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinenotdownnlocked From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 935 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12287 times:

Of course DL wants LHR slots so they can run who knows how many gazillion flights from ATL to LHR. I could easily see LHR-LAX/SFO/MIA/and many others discontinued in favor of a connection over ATL. Perhaps a slot or two would be given to JFK or DTW. How long did MIA-LHR and the second BOS-LHR flight last? LHR-MIA was dropped ASAP so they could start a second ATL-LHR and just a few weeks ago slots were acquired from someone else to start a 3rd ATL-LHR. With DL it's all about ATL and anything else is secondary. Sir Richard please hold on to your airline!!! The thread title should read: DL poised to swoop on Virgin's LHR slots.

[Edited 2012-12-05 17:29:39]

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 97, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12234 times:

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 96):
just a few weeks ago slots were acquired from someone else to start a 3rd ATL-LHR.

Possibly they were allowed to change one of the LGW flights to a LHR slot from ATL.


Apparently, you don't like DL and/or ATL. We get that. DL has almost always been ATLcentric and probably always be that way. Those of us that worked in the outstations knew that and accepted it. It has worked for DL and I see no reason for it to change. As far as your other speculations, I don't see much validity in them. DL is NOT going to spend that much money, just to dismantle the "jewel in the crown", so to speak. They WANT LHR and they want those LHR slots, just to try and stay competitive with the other carriers that have more at LHR.

Unless I'm mistaken, they couldn't just turn around and use the MIA-LHR slot for ATL-LHR, instead. I believe the slot had to go back to AA/BA......same with BOS-LHR.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12196 times:

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 96):

Of course DL wants LHR slots so they can run who knows how many gazillion flights from ATL to LHR. I could easily see LHR-LAX/SFO/MIA/and many others discontinued in favor of a connection over ATL.

DL does not fly LHR-LAX/SFO/MIA, so the question of discontinuing them does not exist.
And if you intend to say that the VS service from LHR to LAX will be discontinued, that is not going to happen either. There is enough traffic to fly nonstop LHR-LAX


User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 533 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 12041 times:
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Quoting mayor (Reply 97):

  

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 98):

  

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 96):

The reason DL wants to partner up with Virgin Atlantic is that they them selves don't serve those markets. I'm sure they are hoping to include VA to the Transatlantic JV with AF/KL/AZ so they can finally say they offer MIA, LAX, SFO, IAD, ORD, EWR on VA, 6x JFK, 2x BOS on both combined carriers and MSP, DTW, ATL on DL, to their clients and corporate account agents and negotiators so they can win more corporate traffic.

They got their 3rd daily ATL-LHR slot from the split slot they were using all along. 4days a week it was being used for a 3rd daily ATL-LHR and the other 3 days it was being used for a second DTW-LHR flight. The MIA-LHR slot went back to AA/BA since that slot was not transferable, same with the second BOS-LHR slot. Now if they are able to buy the 49% of VA and implement a JV i will bet the second BOS-LHR flight will resume once they have enough 757 with flat beds in J and i'm sure they will find a slot to finally start SEA-LHR as well.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6121 posts, RR: 2
Reply 100, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 11838 times:

Don't forget AMEX in all this "how will they finance it" Talk. VS operates a large leisure division....just the sort of thing AMEX likes.....so AMEX might be willing to help finance the deal.


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7888 posts, RR: 52
Reply 101, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 11853 times:

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 96):

Of course DL wants LHR slots so they can run who knows how many gazillion flights from ATL to LHR.

Have you seen DL's ops from CDG and AMS? Far more than a bunch of ATL-CDG/ATL-AMS flights. It's actually pretty remarkable at how many cities they serve from these two foreign hubs



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 102, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 11788 times:

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 93):

So your plan is to post something that is completely false and just run with it....k  
Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 96):
Of course DL wants LHR slots so they can run who knows how many gazillion flights from ATL to LHR. I could easily see LHR-LAX/SFO/MIA/and many others discontinued in favor of a connection over ATL. Perhaps a slot or two would be given to JFK or DTW. How long did MIA-LHR and the second BOS-LHR flight last? LHR-MIA was dropped ASAP so they could start a second ATL-LHR and just a few weeks ago slots were acquired from someone else to start a 3rd ATL-LHR. With DL it's all about ATL and anything else is secondary. Sir Richard please hold on to your airline!!! The thread title should read: DL poised to swoop on Virgin's LHR slots.

uh...BOS/MIA-LHR were cut because they lost money. Back it up with P&Ls if I'm wrong.
and ATL-LHR had a summer seasonal flight last year. At least get your facts right. (oh and FWIW JFK-LHR has been the main focus of Delta. This is why it had more flights(and still does year round) So again, you fail)

Quoting mayor (Reply 97):
Possibly they were allowed to change one of the LGW flights to a LHR slot from ATL.

No. Last year Delta had 2x LHR 1x LGW. One LHR was summer seasonal(like LHR #3 this year) and the LGW flight was canceled when Delta got a slot for a year round LHR #2. The seasonal flight was there last year.

Delta has had 2-3x on ATL-LON for a while......

Quoting mayor (Reply 97):

Unless I'm mistaken, they couldn't just turn around and use the MIA-LHR slot for ATL-LHR, instead. I believe the slot had to go back to AA/BA......same with BOS-LHR.

They did. Delta just got another LHR slot for ATL #2.



yep.
User currently offlineslinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11706 times:

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 89):
Why on earth would SQ pax in LHR T3 want to use VS's lounge when they can use SQ's!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have never ever heard such diarroegh from a supposedly intelligent source. I will now view anything with CNN attached to it as utter shit.

Simple really, the VS Clubhouse at Heathrow is way better than SIA's First lounge, it's probably the best lounge in the world. That said, I thought SIA First passengers could use it, it's J pax that cannot.

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 96):
Of course DL wants LHR slots so they can run who knows how many gazillion flights from ATL to LHR. I could easily see LHR-LAX/SFO/MIA/and many others discontinued in favor of a connection over ATL. Perhaps a slot or two would be given to JFK or DTW.

That would depress me, unless:

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 98):
There is enough traffic to fly nonstop LHR-LAX

Indeed, LAX is twice daily, SFO is twice daily some days in the summer, and these routes are popular for VS. So I hope that if this happens DL doesn't simply grab the slots and fly to places we don't actually want to go to.


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Reply 104, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11676 times:
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Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 96):
I could easily see LHR-LAX/SFO/MIA/and many others discontinued in favor of a connection over ATL. Perhaps a slot or two would be given to JFK or DTW. How long did MIA-LHR and the second BOS-LHR flight last? LHR-MIA was dropped ASAP so they could start a second ATL-LHR

What a load of nonsense. If it was all about ATL, why did DL even bother to get the MIA and BOS flights started in the first place? Why is DL even bothering to hang on to BOS-LHR? The flight is clearly struggling (they have downgauged it from a 764 to a 763); if what you say is true, they would have dropped it by now in favor of another ATL-LHR.

And ATL-Europe has not grown much if any in the last few years....SVO, PRG, ATH, TLV, and CPH have all been dropped out of ATL in favor of JFK.

One of the big benefits of getting hold of VS is to consolidate and rationalize capacity, as well as to get that UK/LHR-point of sale for DL. DL would love to be able to fly LHR-LAX, LHR-MIA, etc., but the way the market is right now, DL doesn't stand much of a chance going it alone against the BA/AA juggernaut and VS, so by combining with VS, there will be one less competitor to contend with, and DL/VS could have enough frequency and sales to counter BA/AA. And by the sound of things, VS's traffic has fallen significantly since losing the BMI feed to BA; VS is now more vulnerable than before (when Branson's asking price was too high for DL/AF/KL) and may be more willing to deal this time round.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9343 posts, RR: 14
Reply 105, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11668 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 104):

And ATL-Europe has not grown much if any in the last few years....SVO, PRG, ATH, TLV, and CPH have all been dropped out of ATL in favor of JFK.

        

We have been cut more to Europe than any type of growth. I'd be happy to give MIA-LHR back if we got our CPH/ARN/SVO/ATH/PRG and TLV flights back.



yep.
User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 106, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11634 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 94):
Then no deal will happen.

That we can agree on. I am just saying that i dont see SRB giving up his controlling interest.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 103):
Why on earth would SQ pax in LHR T3 want to use VS's lounge when they can use SQ's!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have never ever heard such diarroegh from a supposedly intelligent source. I will now view anything with CNN attached to it as utter shit.Simple really, the VS Clubhouse at Heathrow is way better than SIA's First lounge, it's probably the best lounge in the world

As stated above. VS Clubs Lounge at LHR is arguably the best lounge in te world, its just fantastic.......if you can get in there that is!


User currently offlineaircanada014 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11528 times:

please dear lord lets hope this doesn't happen

User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 108, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11299 times:

One side consideration is that IMO the big loser with any kind of DL-VS linkup is AA. LHR is effectively another cornerstone in the big idea for AA's future known as the "cornerstone strategy," which in Europe and Asia means outsourcing flying to alliance partners...

.... but LHR is a handicapped connecting hub, (taxes alone make other options in Europe more desireable for connections) and if Delta can come close to matching AA at Heathrow (especially from NYC) then Delta can finally extinguish much of the competitive value in AA's 20 year unreachable advantage in London.



Pu


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 61
Reply 109, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11236 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 104):
What a load of nonsense. If it was all about ATL, why did DL even bother to get the MIA and BOS flights started in the first place? Why is DL even bothering to hang on to BOS-LHR? The flight is clearly struggling (they have downgauged it from a 764 to a 763); if what you say is true, they would have dropped it by now in favor of another ATL-LHR.

Ridiculous indeed. Delta wouldn't dismantle Virgin's U.S. network - not only would it destroy their investment, but it would be pointless as that's the main value Virgin has for Delta.

Quoting Pu (Reply 108):
One side consideration is that IMO the big loser with any kind of DL-VS linkup is AA.

Hardly.

Quoting Pu (Reply 108):
if Delta can come close to matching AA at Heathrow (especially from NYC) then Delta can finally extinguish much of the competitive value in AA's 20 year unreachable advantage in London.

Well if Delta could do that, it would indeed harm AA (and BA) greatly. Only problem with that logic is that this deal wouldn't do that at all. Delta, with Virgin, would still be far behind AA/BA in the LHR-U.S. market, both overall and on a route-by-route basis (only exception, I believe, being MCO).


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11219 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 106):
As stated above. VS Clubs Lounge at LHR is arguably the best lounge in te world, its just fantastic.......if you can get in there that is!

Well Skyteam's LHR terminal will be the pokey T4, I presume a VS integrated with AF and DL would move there, which wouldn't be an improvement. Presumably, MH would go the other way to T3 as they're about to join Oneworld...



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 111, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11121 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 109):
Hardly

Apparently there is not an AA press realease that goes unmemorised nor an AA management idea disagreed with in this tenuous bankruptcy period - but the fact that an AA apologist gets unnerved when AA's London strategy is challenged is hardly a credible opinion, especially from a nonemployee with zero industry experience. For once give us something original.

Quoting commavia (Reply 109):
Well if Delta could do that, it would indeed harm AA (and BA) greatly. Only problem with that logic is that this deal wouldn't do that at all. Delta, with Virgin, would still be far behind AA/BA in the LHR-U.S. market, both overall and on a route-by-route basis (only exception, I believe, being MCO).

Delta cares mainly about NYC-London. Delta's vastly superior European route network and dual European hubs in CDG and AMS are at least an equal match to BA/AA picking up the LHR-US market, whose overwhelming ptize is NYC-London...the other city pairs to London aren't in any way critical like NY.


Pu

[Edited 2012-12-06 06:43:06]

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 61
Reply 112, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11125 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 111):
but the fact that an AA apologist gets unnerved when AA's London strategy is challenged is hardly a credible opinion, especially from a nonemployee with zero industry experience.

Hahahahaha.

If I'm an AA apologist for using facts to refute your false conclusions and assertions, does that make you an AA hater?

When you find an AA apologist, or anything resembling "AA's London strategy" being challenged by Delta, please let us all know.

Quoting Pu (Reply 111):
For once give us something original.

Likewise.

Quoting Pu (Reply 111):
Delta cares mainly about NYC-London. Delta's vastly superior European route network and dual European hubs in CDG and AMS are at least an equal match to BA/AA picking up the LHR-US market, whose overwhelming ptize is NYC-London...the other city pairs to London aren't in any way critical like NY.

Wait ... I thought this was about Delta/Virgin challenging AA's position in London, not Europe in general. What do Paris and Amsterdam have to do with that?

  


User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11065 times:

Pardon my dumb question, but if Delta only wants LHR slots why didn't they buy BMI?

David


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 114, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11020 times:

Quoting diverdave (Reply 113):
Pardon my dumb question, but if Delta only wants LHR slots why didn't they buy BMI?

David

EU ownership rules would have prevented them from acquiring all of the company and even if they could have bought bmi it would have been too big a liability to take on without a substantial existing LHR operation (eg BA) to integrate it into.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7888 posts, RR: 52
Reply 115, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10959 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 112):
When you find an AA apologist, or anything resembling "AA's London strategy" being challenged by Delta, please let us all know.

While I don't think DL would "defeat AA at LHR" how can you not agree it's a blow to them? Just like a carrier adding 20 flights to DFW, it won't defeat AA there but I'm sure AA isn't exactly thrilled, and assuming the carrier can make those ops work without bleeding money, AA would be "the biggest loser" in that situation. Biggest loser =/= getting chased out of the market, it just means the difference between before and after is the greatest negative in their case



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 116, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10916 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 112):
Likewise.

I DID offer an original point: VS linked with DL weakens AA most of all.
...versus the standard reply copied straight from AA.com press realeases.

Quoting commavia (Reply 112):

If I'm an AA apologist for using facts to refute your false conclusions and assertions, does that make you an AA hater?

APOLOGIST:one who speaks in defense of someone or something.
(no negative implication)
Who else defends AA or confronts immediately anyone questioning AA strategy?

Quoting commavia (Reply 112):
When you find an AA apologist, or anything resembling "AA's London strategy" being challenged by Delta, please let us all know.

The identity of the primary AA apologist on this forum is well known; Delta's (or United's) confrontation of AA's London strategy is their choice to serve many more markets in Europe versus AA's codehare on BA as well as their increased pressure on the crown jewel in premium customers, the NYC-LON city pair.

Quoting commavia (Reply 112):

What do Paris and Amsterdam have to do with that?
Not covered in the AA.com newsroom, so no surprise this has to be explained, but DL chipping away at NYC-LON premium traffic weakens the ENTIRE hub operation at LHR, which is inherently high cost and capacity constrained compared to cheaper and unconstrained connection opportunities at CDG and AMS.

LHR is a high cost hub and requires very high levels of premium traffic to make it work for connecting flights, AMS and CDG allows DL to feed Europe with cheaper fares than AA needs at LHR, plus Delta's plan is to chip away at AA's premium NY traffic that is the very foundation of their European strategy...hubs crumble from the top down.



Pu


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 61
Reply 117, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10765 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 115):
While I don't think DL would "defeat AA at LHR" how can you not agree it's a blow to them?

Would it have an impact? Sure. But I was responding to two specific comments.

First, it was stated that "the big loser with any kind of DL-VS linkup" would be AA. With that I disagree. If this were to happen, "the" big loser would be BA, not AA, which both directly and as a percentage of overall network and revenue is far more exposed to the North Atlantic, and thus increased competition there, than AA.

Second, I also disagree with the "if" statement made in support of the first, that "if Delta can come close to matching AA at Heathrow (especially from NYC)..." I suppose that's an interesting hypothetical, but it's meaningless here since this reported deal would not come close to accomplishing that. Delta, on its own, would still be substantially smaller than AA in the LHR market. And if you combine Delta and Virgin, and then compare that to a combined AA-BA, AA-BA would still be dramatically larger both overall and larger in almost every, if not every, U.S.-LHR market. And on JFK-LHR specifically, AA-BA would still offer roughly double the frequency to Delta-Virgin - so hardly Delta "combing close to matching" anything.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7571 posts, RR: 25
Reply 118, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10673 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 116):
APOLOGIST:one who speaks in defense of someone or something.
(no negative implication)
Who else defends AA or confronts immediately anyone questioning AA strategy?

Dude, you are one to talk.

Quoting Pu (Reply 116):
I DID offer an original point: VS linked with DL weakens AA most of all.

Dont be such a drama queen. This is hardly crippling to AA/BA.

Good for DL. VS and DL would be good partners.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 119, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10568 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 115):
it won't defeat AA

It may go a way to defeat AA's LHR strategy, that is to say their idea to capture the best of the transatlantic premium market (which is overwelmingly NY-LON) and use LHR as their primary connecting hub for Europe.

Ever look at a BA 777 seatmap and see how 2/3rds of it is premium cabin? Notice that the head of BA said their economy passengers are subsidised in lower fares by the premium cabins and of little value to them? ...and that likewise AA pursues an especially focused strategy on premium ("cornerstone") fliers?

...A Big Reason is Heathrow!

AA and BA aren't so premium focused merely because they want to be, its that LHR only works for them with huge premium traffic customers, so they have to be. CDG and AMS work fine without as big a reliance in big spending front cabin fliers.

An $800 fare on AA/BA over LHR to xxx (Europe) nets AA/BA around $200 after British taxes.
....an $800 fare on DL over JFK or CDG or AMS to xxx nets them, eh $500 or so.
....LHR is ESPECIALLY dependent on the front cabin, Delta fighting for NYC-London weakens the hub. A lot.

If Delta takes VIrgins ~30 or so pre BMI slot pairs and come close to matching AA/BA in NYC-LON, then LHR as a connecting hub is dramtically weakened for AA, thus the London strategy is at great risk, as are the rest of BA/AA's markets from the US to LHR if the top tier NYC fliers spread their busieness towards Delta more than AA.

Quoting commavia (Reply 117):
so hardly Delta "combing close to matching" anything.

If he who collects the most traffic to London wins, yes, I agree. But to the airlines that rely ENTIRELY on premium traffic to make their LHR hub work, Delta's attack on NYC-LHR is critical.
The biggest loser in a VS-DL link is AA.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 118):
Dude, you are one to talk.

"Dude," if we want a defense of DFW or AA we know who to ask. I spend perhaps 1% of my time here talking about AA: how much do you two spend defending DFW or AA against all challengers?

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 118):

Dont be such a drama queen. This is hardly crippling to AA/BA.

Kindly explain how me saying Delta with Virgin WEAKENS AA is equivalent to me saying it is CRIPPLING AA? How is "weakens" being dramatic, except to those who see every question of AA strategy as a personal setback to their worldview requiring fierce and immediate personal attacks?


Pu

[Edited 2012-12-06 10:11:45]

[Edited 2012-12-06 10:13:10]

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7571 posts, RR: 25
Reply 120, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10522 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 119):
AA: how much do you two spend defending DFW or AA against all challengers?

Defending AA? Never.

Defending DFW? Always. My loyalty is to DFW, not AA. Since AA is the one that provides DFW with a megahub and tons of jobs, I do support them. That said, if you would like to go read the DFW thread I started, Im pretty darn realistic about what is feasible and not from DFW and I back it up with data.

Quoting Pu (Reply 119):
It may go a way to defeat AA's LHR strategy, that is to say their idea to capture the best of the transatlantic premium market (which is overwelmingly NY-LON) and use LHR as their primary connecting hub for Europe.

This is going to help DL way more than it hurts AA. BA/AA is still going to control the lions share of LHR and their loyal flyers are still going to be there. What this will do is give people who are already loyal to Skyteam and VS more options.

More power to DL, its a good move by them. I dont think BA is going to lose sleep over it though.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 121, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10482 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 120):
Defending DFW? Always

DFW is impressive! ...and I respect anyone with the ability to advertise their Self honesty and confront their public identity by calling themselves (in your case) a DFW defender!

....the refusal of another to accept their behaviour as a perpetual apologist for AA is clouding this discussion, apologies for grouping you in this category of self deception.

As for DL and VS, sure BA will always have LHR origin loyalty....but DL's aggression in NYC and (potentially in LHR with VS) has one big target in their sites whose initials are AA. My experience is that NYC big ticket fliers are in many ways immune to loyalty schemes, so I will respectfully disagree that VS DL together is going to "help DL more than it hurts AA"'....mainly because DL just wants premium O&D traffic while AA is depending on LHR for their whole European strategy...but we shall see.


Pu


User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10385 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 114):
EU ownership rules would have prevented them from acquiring all of the company and even if they could have bought bmi it would have been too big a liability to take on without a substantial existing LHR operation (eg BA) to integrate it into.

Thank you.  

It is interesting to find out that the EU has laws that restrict foreign ownership of airlines, similar to the US law. I will have to do some research on that.

David


User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1061 posts, RR: 5
Reply 123, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10394 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 120):
More power to DL, its a good move by them. I dont think BA is going to lose sleep over it though.

I would expect BA to challenge the financial structure of the deal if it effectively gives Delta control over a European airline and what could be considered sovereign assets. As a result, conditions might be applied to the deal which forced the new directors of VS to continue to run VS as-is, meaning no transfer of slots.

Problem is that VS as-is does not have a promising long term strategy. With the sale of BMI, it's feed has diminished and it is losing money. It is surviving only for the sake of the brand now.

If it has to be run as-is, the advantage goes to BA, who has demonstrated, even before the BMI purchase, that it can feed (and expand) its long haul routes from LHR and maintain (and grow) its European short haul operation to the top European business centers with the feed from AA.

This is not going to be a clean-cut deal like the ones that saw United take over PanAm's LHR slots and AA, TWA's LHR slot portfolio. As I indicated, this is not an outright purchase of slots. And, BA has the home field advantage to challenge this deal both with British regulators and the European commission. While I don't see BA painting "No Way Virgin-Delta" on their planes, I do expect them to make the case that this could result in the loss of British jobs. That is a good argument to be making these days.


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 124, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10057 times:

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 123):
As a result, conditions might be applied to the deal which forced the new directors of VS to continue to run VS as-is, meaning no transfer of slots.

Which means the deal wouldn't get done.

That said, I am not sure that BA would challenge. A strengthened VS (but still massively weaker no matter how much this helps) is in some ways good for BA. They'll face far less scrutiny if they have an effective competitor. VS as is is slowly dying.


User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9257 times:

According to Bloomberg:

Quote:
U.K. billionaire Richard Branson is in talks to sell part of his 51 percent stake in Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. to Air France-KLM Group (AF), the Sunday Times reported, citing unidentified people with knowledge of the discussions.

A three-way transaction would also see Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc. buying Singapore Airlines Ltd.’s 49 percent share in the U.K. carrier, the Times said. A deal may be concluded early next week, according to the newspaper.

Calls to Air France and Delta went unanswered outside normal office hours. Joanne Foster, a Virgin spokeswoman, said by e-mail that the company is “always talking to many airlines on a number of different matters but we never comment on the details of these discussions.” Singapore spokesman Nicholas Ionides declined to comment beyond a Dec. 3 statement that reported the airline’s negotiations with “interested parties.”

The Asian carrier paid 600 million pounds ($962 million) for its holding in 1999. The global economic slowdown, rising fuel prices and increased competition out of London’s Heathrow Airport have weighed on Virgin Atlantic’s earnings since then.

Branson hired Deutsche Bank AG in 2010 to study possible alliances and said earlier this year that Virgin Atlantic was in advanced talks. The carrier posted a loss of 80.2 million pounds for the year through February and has delayed adding bigger planes.

North Atlantic flights generate about a quarter of all global revenue from first- and business-class fares, more than twice as much as the second-place Pacific routes, according to the International Air Transport Association. Heathrow is closer to London than Delta’s previous base at Gatwick airport, which U.S. airlines have shunned since flight rules eased in 2008.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...atlantic-sunday-times-reports.html


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7888 posts, RR: 52
Reply 126, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9182 times:

If DL/AF/KL acquire 51%+, will they effectively be in charge of the airline? As in they can basically do whatever they want with VS? I'm not too familiar with business transactions, I'm not sure if it's more complex than just majority ownership or whatnot


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10395 posts, RR: 14
Reply 127, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9290 times:

Quoting AF185 (Reply 125):

Without DL's purchase of the 49%, AF/KL's possible purchase of a small stake in Virgin wouldn't make much sense, and the opposite holds true, also. Both transactions have to be done to make it work. I guess maybe that much was obvious to most on here.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9013 times:

Several newspapers are reporting Willie Walsh saying that this could be the end of the Virgin brand and that Delta only want the slots.

Although it seems a hell of a lot of slots - what would DAL do with them?

Also, Virgin are returning 3 of the 12 slots they acquired recently to BAW as they only want 9 for the Scottish routes.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5192 posts, RR: 6
Reply 129, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8925 times:

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 128):
Also, Virgin are returning 3 of the 12 slots they acquired recently to BAW as they only want 9 for the Scottish routes.

I believe they can still apply for the other 3 slots in another scheduling season. As can any other carrier for the next 3 or so years i believe.

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 128):
Several newspapers are reporting Willie Walsh saying that this could be the end of the Virgin brand and that Delta only want the slots.

I doubt that is the case. The Virgin brand is quite useful - especially in the UK. They are succesful in many routes ex LHR which Delta have tried and not been successful. LHR-LAX and LHR-MIA are 2 that spring to mind.

Now I would also suspect Willie Walsh as saying this to try and cloud the VS short haul announcements.

[Edited 2012-12-10 02:11:38]

User currently onlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8874 times:

Shouldn't we change the title of this thread into AF/KL Poised to Swoop on Virgin Atlantic as per Bloomberg article the rumour is that AF/KL will gain control and not DL?

User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8811 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 130):
Shouldn't we change the title of this thread into AF/KL Poised to Swoop on Virgin Atlantic as per Bloomberg article the rumour is that AF/KL will gain control and not DL?

DL is negotiating for the main capital chunk (49% currently controlled by SQ), while AF-KL is said to be discussing for a small portion of SRB's capital which would turn the whole DL/AF-KL as the majority stakeholder.

Thus the title of the thread is correct


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8705 times:

VS have to be careful, an airline controled by DL/AF will lose it's 'little guy' independent/funky image, and neither French nor USA airlines have a particularly strong reputation in the UK market.

If DL bought the 49% stake held by SQ (the maximum allowed), then if AF/KL bought 2% from Branson, AF with DL would have control, but are they that close to work together, and would Branson be happy with a 49% minority stake in his airline - there's a big difference between 49 and 51%!



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 965 posts, RR: 2
Reply 133, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8664 times:

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 132):
AF with DL would have control, but are they that close to work together, and would Branson be happy with a 49% minority stake in his airline - there's a big difference between 49 and 51%!

Yes. Due to their JV, DL and AF/KL would more than happily work together to create a profitable venture. I'm sure discussions will be had in regards to revenue sharing, etc., but at the end of the day, they will reach an agreement that will make the purchase work for all parties. Also, I question whether the time hasn't come for Branson to make some sort of killing off his stake in VS. As he gets older, I'm sure he would like to have more cash and fewer risky investments such as holdings in airlines.


User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8661 times:

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 132):
and neither French nor USA airlines have a particularly strong reputation in the UK market.

As a UK resident for many years now, I would argue that the AF/KL group has a very strong reputation in the UK. Especially KL who has become the defacto carrier for most stations outside of London. The firm I work for books people on those carriers as often as BA and rarely books people on VS.

While I would agree that VS has a very strong brand in the UK, I very much doubt that the a deal by DL/AF/KL would want to see the brand wiped off the map. I can imagine a couple of slots might be reassigned to DL flying routes, but only a few.

Still skeptical that this deal will be done, but the City AM's article this morning mentioned it could be closed and announced by the end of the week. It seems that if a deal is done, they are pushing to have it finalized by year end.

Regards,

Team



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1566 posts, RR: 10
Reply 135, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8623 times:

Could not Virgin become a local/ holiday airline.

The has got Virgin Auz/far east. Also now got USA/ Americas.Now has a UK airline. (has tried before for Europe - may try again from that bas)e. Could launch an African airline (has talked about it in the past). And run his Global destinations for holidays out of Gatwick?

And get out of the loss making scheduled global business (it is a graveyard for small operators after all)

Just a thought


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13554 posts, RR: 62
Reply 136, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8566 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Here's one of the articles suggesting the VS brand could be scrapped entirely:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...c-brand-could-soon-be-history.html



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3572 posts, RR: 3
Reply 137, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8559 times:

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 132):
VS have to be careful, an airline controled by DL/AF will lose it's 'little guy' independent/funky image, and neither French nor USA airlines have a particularly strong reputation in the UK market.

At the end of the day its all about money, Richard Branson has been in the airline business for a long time and has quite an amount of capital tied up in it. The return he has been getting of late is fairly poor to say the least, no great reflection on his abilities, most airlines are very good at destroying investors funds.

He's a businessman, and there has to come a time when he decides to find an alternative use for his money, look what happened to his first business love Virgin Records, and a later one Virgin Megastores, both sold.
Lots of other Virgin businesses have also hit the buffers over the years and either been sold off or closed down.

Financially he would probably be better off selling VS, and if he likes travelling to Necker on A Virgin branded plane, keeping a nice new A330 as his private jet.

With his past history of axing failing businesses, selling off ones that produced little profit, and selling ones where other people were willing to part with lots of cash, Ican't see him having a huge attachment to VS, especially now that Steve Ridgeway is departing. It would not surprise me at all to hear one day that DL had taken SQ's 49% , AF/KL SRB's 51% and that they had signed a licensing deal to use the VS name


User currently offlineStarGuy From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 138, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8424 times:

According to Richard Branson:
http://virg.in/aa


User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 139, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8375 times:

No mention of who might own the company in that blog though. Maybe there is an agreement that DAL etc must keep the brand as such for 5 years, or the franchise is for 5 years and after that....

User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1566 posts, RR: 10
Reply 140, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8372 times:

Re Above comments - not far off I would say but.... Richard is famous for having very complicated financial structures - what exactly owns what I wonder?

Firstly his Austrlasian and Americas ventures are entirely seperate from Virgin Atlantic as far as I am aware.

The UK local stuff/slots? Dunno - is it all wrapped up in VA?- or something else.

Then there is the leasure business. Is that VA or Virgin something else?

I don't think anybody thinks VA will stay for long. But the rest? I'm not so sure - indeed I can see other parts expanding.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3572 posts, RR: 3
Reply 141, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8285 times:

Quoting StarGuy (Reply 138):
According to Richard Branson:
http://virg.in/aa

Interesting quotes to say the least

"Virgin Atlantic was my baby 28 years ago when we set up with just one plane. Like all children, they never really stop being your babies"

Virgin records was "his baby" the original Virgin baby, and guess what he sold it to EMI.

He knows that whilst he can pledge £1m for a bet, Willie Walsh can't, thats the difference between an owner and a manager. Whats £1m though in this context ? in 2011/12 VS lost that every three days. If he can sell it on he'll have plenty of cash to settle the debt with.

Quoting parapente (Reply 140):

Then there is the leasure business. Is that VA or Virgin something else?

I think Virgin Holidays is on equal footing with VS as part of the Virgin Group, that just makes them a customer
, albeit a very big customer of VS. If VS were sold Virgin holidays could continue to buy seats from VS, or indeed buy them from any other airline.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5192 posts, RR: 6
Reply 142, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8101 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 141):

I think Virgin Holidays is on equal footing with VS as part of the Virgin Group,

Virgin Holidays is a 100% subsiduary of Virgin Atlantic as far as I am aware.

This article http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...virgin-delta-idUSBRE8B906S20121210
also suggests that Branson will not relinquish control and that if Delta buy the SQ 49% then VS/DL will just have a JV on transatlantic routes. Which makes alot more sense. I presume the rumours of AF/KL have come from somewhere else and are unsubstaniated.

Now having DL as the shareholder over SQ makes much more sense as they can work together alot more closely than what SQ/VS ever could.

[Edited 2012-12-10 06:03:17]

User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3572 posts, RR: 3
Reply 143, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7983 times:

Quoting anstar (Reply 142):
Now having DL as the shareholder over SQ makes much more sense as they can work together alot more closely than what SQ/VS ever could.

VS could easily have worked more closely with SQ, joined star would have been one step. Also they could have launched joint venture flights LHR - Singapore feeding onto each others respective networks.

The bare truth is that despite SQ owning 49% of VS there were no discernable signs of any form of co operation between the two airlines.

The question is, if this was down to SQ then DL would probably be a better partner, if however the lack of co operation was dowm to VS, how would a tie up with DL alter the situation ?


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8340 posts, RR: 7
Reply 144, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7830 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Walsh saying the Virgin brand is going to "dissappear" is laughable, but what would you expect the CEO of IAG to say. What does Walsh expect Virgin to become " Delta UK" ? He is the only one thinking that, Walsh should worry about Iberia and not Virgin Atlantic.

User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 145, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7806 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 144):
Walsh saying the Virgin brand is going to "dissappear" is laughable, but what would you expect the CEO of IAG to say. What does Walsh expect Virgin to become " Delta UK" ? He is the only one thinking that, Walsh should worry about Iberia and not Virgin Atlantic.

I don't think he is. There is a valid underlying point being made that Delta will be making a very large investment in an airline that it won't control, that has a very separate and distinct brand, and will always be associated with a personality. Witness the difficulties the Easyjet board have had with Stelios as evidence of how that can go wrong. Delta shareholders should be asking whether they could achieve the same with Virgin in terms of a joint transatlantic business without an equity investment.


User currently offlinewolfpacker From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 354 posts, RR: 0
Reply 146, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7653 times:

Bloomberg is saying they are close

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...in-stake-deal-for-300-500-mln.html


User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 147, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7728 times:

BREAKING (Bloomberg)

Quote:
Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL) is nearing an deal to buy a 49 percent stake in Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. from Singapore Airlines Ltd. (SIA) and may pay less than $500 million for it, three people familiar with the matter said.
The price range is $300 million to $500 million and an agreement may be announced this week, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the talks are private. Singapore Airlines paid 600 million pounds for the Virgin Atlantic stake in 1999, or about $966 million now.
Delta and Virgin Atlantic may seek a joint venture on trans-Atlantic routes as part of the arrangement, two of the people said. That would give Atlanta-based Delta improved access to flights across the North Atlantic, the world’s most lucrative market for premium passengers.
Richard Branson, the U.K. billionaire who holds 51 percent of Virgin Atlantic, will probably remain in control of the Crawley, England-based carrier, Chief Executive Officer Steve Ridgway said last week in an interview.
Spokesmen for Virgin Atlantic, Singapore Airlines and Delta declined to comment.
Singapore Airlines said last week that negotiations with “interested parties” were under way and may not result in a transaction. A “reasonable price” for the 49 percent Virgin stake would be about $200 million to $300 million, a Barclays Plc analyst, David Fintzen, wrote in a Dec. 7 note to clients.
Virgin Atlantic operated 40 planes as of May 2012, while Delta, the world’s second-largest carrier, has 725 aircraft in its main jet fleet.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...in-stake-deal-for-300-500-mln.html


User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 148, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7558 times:

As expected if the Bloomberg report rings true SRB will not give up control of VS.

Looks like VS are heading to ST, when most and myself thought thhey were heading to *A.


User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3228 posts, RR: 2
Reply 149, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7554 times:

Take a look at this link.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20665041

Branson bets £1m Virgin Atlantic will still be around in 5yrs time.



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7888 posts, RR: 52
Reply 150, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7527 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 148):
As expected if the Bloomberg report rings true SRB will not give up control of VS.

There has to be some background deals... I really hope DL won't be so stupid and buy 49% of VS without some assurances...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3572 posts, RR: 3
Reply 151, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7333 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 150):
Quoting ual777uk (Reply 148):
As expected if the Bloomberg report rings true SRB will not give up control of VS.


There has to be some background deals... I really hope DL won't be so stupid and buy 49% of VS without some assurances...

Are you basing your assesment on the fact that SQ had the best part of a Billion dollars tied up for 13 years and now look like only getting 1/3 of it back ?


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 152, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7399 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 144):
Virgin to become " Delta UK" ?

Would that be possible/feasible? How about 'Delta's Sacrificial Virgin'?



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 153, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7389 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 152):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 144):
Virgin to become " Delta UK" ?

Would that be possible/feasible? How about 'Delta's Sacrificial Virgin'?

If something like that did happen, would they paint all the current VS aircraft into DL livery?



3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1061 posts, RR: 5
Reply 154, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7229 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 144):
Walsh saying the Virgin brand is going to "dissappear" is laughable, but what would you expect the CEO of IAG to say. What does Walsh expect Virgin to become " Delta UK" ? He is the only one thinking that, Walsh should worry about Iberia and not Virgin Atlantic.

It is not laughable, it is brilliant. He is playing Branson's ego against him.

Either way, Walsh wins.

If the Virgin brand disappears, BA becomes the only true premium choice on the route. The Delta brand cannot compete with BA's.

If Virgin stays around as-is, BA still wins because Delta adds nothing to Virgin that will fix what is wrong with Virgin today.


User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1389 posts, RR: 1
Reply 155, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7149 times:

SQ and LH are two of the smartest and best run airlines in the world, they have both had their hands severely burnt playing in the UK market with VS and BD and both will have exited realising significant losses. That alone would make me nervious if I was a DL share/stockholder - are DL's management really cleverer than SQ's and LH's?


Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,B463,(..50 types..),VC10,WESX