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Air Canada Premium Economy  
User currently offlinekamloops From Canada, joined Nov 2010, 79 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10400 times:

Reported from the FinancialPost, that "Air Canada plans premium economy seating on some planes next year: sources"



Wondering if they are going to have another contest to name this new cabin class?

http://business.financialpost.com/20...-on-some-planes-next-year-sources/

[Edited 2012-12-03 07:16:00]

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4983 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10364 times:

this is not a confirmation - it's speculation based on rumour.

User currently offlinemorrisond From Canada, joined Jan 2010, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10359 times:

Interesting and much welcomed from this Canadian. However they did mention 'Higher Density" 77W to be delivered next summer. Me thinks 10W Y is coming for AC 777's, Probably go 9W Y+ with Old seats at 33-34"

User currently offlinemilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10332 times:

Would be nice sooner   as I'm thinking of flying to Canada in March to visit my family over Easter and I thought I'd finally splurge on their executive class for both the transatlantic and domestic portions of the flight ...


I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlineLostSound From Canada, joined May 2012, 228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10264 times:

They should offer it on their A320s and A321s. I end up on those all the time and could use the extra space!


"Our hands are full, our lives are not"
User currently offlinekamloops From Canada, joined Nov 2010, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10250 times:

Quoting flyyul (Reply 1):
this is not a confirmation - it's speculation based on rumour.

Agreed, but believe that it is being reported from Financial Post, which you may even receive onboard Air Canada flights, I think would be a strong indicator that this rumor maybe true.

Quoting morrisond (Reply 2):
Interesting and much welcomed from this Canadian. However they did mention 'Higher Density" 77W to be delivered next summer. Me thinks 10W Y is coming for AC 777's, Probably go 9W Y+ with Old seats at 33-34"

I wonder as well, maybe 34-35" pitch in Y+, be really nice on YVR-SYD & YYZ-HKG flights without having to pay for Executive First price.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5465 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10137 times:

The report isn't clear if this is European-style premium economy or US-style. Is the seat to be wider or is it just a pitch increase?

Having recently flown both versions of Y+, I'll gladly pay for BA's World Traveler Plus, whereas. UA's premium economy is a nice upgrade but not worth actual cash.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2028 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10076 times:

In typical Air Canada fashion it'll be 2" more legroom and a free packet of pretzels. They'll charge 20% over Latitude fares.

My expectations for AC are low.

I am not holding my breath for AC to deliver real Premium Economy A la AF Premium Voyageur, NZ Space Suite or BA World Traveller , SAS Economy Extra, VS Premium Economy or TK Comfort Class.

This is Air Canada. They get their inspiration from UA.


User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1253 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9935 times:
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Quoting ytz (Reply 7):

They ought to! they have enough Ex UA people on Board I'll bet that the product is "Economy plus" with another name.
the $29 for the extra leg room? depends on how much you value your Knees.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25473 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9718 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 7):
I am not holding my breath for AC to deliver real Premium Economy A la AF Premium Voyageur, NZ Space Suite or BA World Traveller , SAS Economy Extra, VS Premium Economy or TK Comfort Class.

In my opinion the UA type of Y+ product has a much larger potential market than a separate premium Y class of service. Many passenger can justify the small additional fare premium for Y+ service with a few more inches of seat pitch, than for the BA type of premium Y where the fare premium is often quite high and out of reach of most passengers, and also rarely covered by corporate travel policies. Offering a product that elite frequent flyers can be upgraded to also makes more sense. The Canadian market for a true premium Y product at a 20 or 25% fare premium over unrestricted Y would be too small in my opinion, and would also risk cannibalizing J traffic.


User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9646 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 7):
In typical Air Canada fashion it'll be 2" more legroom and a free packet of pretzels. They'll charge 20% over Latitude fares.
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 8):
They ought to! they have enough Ex UA people on Board I'll bet that the product is "Economy plus" with another name.
the $29 for the extra leg room? depends on how much you value your Knees.

For $29, it is worth it if you are taller... I've done that on United before, and would do it again.

"20% over Latitude" is an entirely different thing, however. Often the Latitutde fare is more than restricted Executive fare (and that is without the 20% mark-up).


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3014 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9573 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 7):
In typical Air Canada fashion it'll be 2" more legroom and a free packet of pretzels. They'll charge 20% over Latitude fares.

My expectations for AC are low.

I am not holding my breath for AC to deliver real Premium Economy A la AF Premium Voyageur, NZ Space Suite or BA World Traveller , SAS Economy Extra, VS Premium Economy or TK Comfort Class.

This is Air Canada. They get their inspiration from UA.

And LH. Given the AC-LH JV and code-sharing on the same route, I'd be surprised if there isn't some comparability with LH's Y+ (if they introduce it). LH is calling the product "premium economy", not "economy plus".



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2625 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9444 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 10):
"20% over Latitude" is an entirely different thing, however. Often the Latitutde fare is more than restricted Executive fare (and that is without the 20% mark-up).



Yes, that would just create unsellable seats. However, with full fare Y one pays for the flexibility that only a small portion of travelers really need. Therefore a restricted Y+ fare based on Tango+ fare rules with 20 - 40% markup would make sense.
Or M and U fare buckets could just become Y+ restricted.
Unrestricted Y+ would be most likely eligible for complimentary upgrade, similarly to Latitude fares.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9311 times:

Why not simply call it what it is: Premium Economy ??

Quoting ytz (Reply 7):
This is Air Canada. They get their inspiration from UA

But how do you really feel ? Simply bashing AC for your perception of their service really doesn't add much.
Personally I don't have much problem with it.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9159 times:

This topic has piqued my curiosity and I cannot help speculate on the possibilities. As an example, having a look at the B77W seat map, I imagine the replacement of the J seats in rows 7 - 11 with a premium economy configuration. Ideally, I would as an armchair CEO go for 2-4-2 with a 36-38 pitch. Of course, it may end up as 3-3-3 with additional pitch and economy 3-4-3 with 32 inch pitch. How does one calculate the benefits of 10 vs 9 across if 10 compensates with more pitch as the case with EK?

B77W Seat Map http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/77W.html


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2028 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8917 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 13):

But how do you really feel ? Simply bashing AC for your perception of their service really doesn't add much.

Read my post history. I hardly have a history of "bashing AC."

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 13):
Personally I don't have much problem with it.

Compared to any airline headquartered south of the border, they are a godsend. But let's face it, AC is not anywhere near "world class".


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8223 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):

In my opinion the UA type of Y+ product has a much larger potential market than a separate premium Y class of service. Many passenger can justify the small additional fare premium for Y+ service with a few more inches of seat pitch, than for the BA type of premium Y where the fare premium is often quite high and out of reach of most passengers, and also rarely covered by corporate travel policies. Offering a product that elite frequent flyers can be upgraded to also makes more sense. The Canadian market for a true premium Y product at a 20 or 25% fare premium over unrestricted Y would be too small in my opinion, and would also risk cannibalizing J traffic.

I have to agree, if only because most discounted Y fares out of Canada are more or less at the price point that Y+ sells at in competitive markets.

For example, earlier this year, I was looking for Y+ ticket to DEL in April:
AF NYC-DEL - $2100.
AF YUL-DEL - $3000.

In the end I settled for TK YYZ-DEL in a Y+/Y for $2000. From NYC, it was selling for $1500. (I have been known to include NYC on my itineraries to DEL using Avion points to get there and to notch up SPG qualifying nights at great rates at airport hotels - and do some shopping with the savings)

Similarly, in December, I will be travelling to DEL and LHR. I ended up booking two separate tickets because it was more cost effective.

AC YOW-LHR (3300 miles) in Y - $1310
VS LHR-DEL (4100 miles) in Y+ - $1380

These were prices at the time of booking - right now the VS ticket is a shade higher at ~$1450, but the direct YOW-LHR is now in the $1500 range.

At these price points, trying to add a 20% premium... not sure it will work. Canadians don't have as much disposable income as Americans and are already paying higher fares, so its a lost cause - as is perhaps natural given that we are playing close to Y+ fares for Y seats, which sums up the state of 'competitiion' in the Canadian aviation market.

For this reason alone, I think they'll go for the UA variety of Y+ - couple of extra inches for $50 on a $1300 ticket. Trying to sell a 6-7hr flight to Europe for $1800....don't see it working.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7327 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 15):
But let's face it, AC is not anywhere near "world class".

Perhaps not ... but why chase after a title that is not necessary. Air Canada competes very well against its supposedly "world class" competitors. And being "world class" gets you not one penny more than your not "world class" competitors.

Sure, its cool to get little extras ... would you pay for them ... nope. Why do you think aviation is going the other way? Why do you think it is the LCCs that will take over the world? Because that is what the passenger wants ... a cheap safe seat from A to B. Joe Blow traveller doesn't give a rat's empennage about "world class".



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinepolaris From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7167 times:

Perhaps the Premium Economy seating is planned for the new leisure division.

User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2625 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6760 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 17):
Sure, its cool to get little extras ... would you pay for them ... nope.

Well, the question is how much is the "little extra". If the ticket price would be ElPistolero's $1800 (or 2k for a RT flight BUD or KRK), I would definitely go for it. However, if AC would do what LO just did, then no, I wouldn't pay for it. They are selling (or rather trying to sell?) Y+ seats to Europe for quite a buck. I priced out a YYZ-WAW-KRK RT trip for next July; they are asking $3600 for it. Just for comparison, this year's price for the same flight in J was $2350...you can draw the conclusion yourself.

Another example, albeit not entirely accurate, since AC Vacations doesn't equal AC. I was browsing Expedia today for some last minute deals for vacation packages down south. I found a 4* resort in Samana (Dominican Republic) with Sunwing. Departure Dec.9, 7 nights, $ 615. The same resort, on the same day, with the same accommodation and other amenities is offered by AC Vacations for $985. What can AC Vacations offer for $370 (or 60% price premium)? Two inches of legroom, half inch of seat width, a PTV on a 4 hour flight (if the aircraft isn't one of the Margueritas) and 50% of status miles? Sorry, I wouldn't go for it, it's just too much of price difference. So in this case, Sunwing's 189 seater B738 would win.


User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2625 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6741 times:

Quoting polaris (Reply 18):
Perhaps the Premium Economy seating is planned for the new leisure division.

It wouldn't be anything new, since it already exists on the Amigo and the Pineapples (non XM 767's). It's called Comfort Class


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6741 times:

Quoting polaris (Reply 18):
Perhaps the Premium Economy seating is planned for the new leisure division.

Perhaps you are correct. It's plausible and makes sense as I would expect there is a some demand for premium type seating on leisure routes. A small part of the LCC customer base has the disposable income to pay for the additional comfort. That's no to say it will not introduced on the mainline fleet.


User currently offlineANM604 From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days ago) and read 6188 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
At these price points, trying to add a 20% premium... not sure it will work. Canadians don't have as much disposable income as Americans and are already paying higher fares, so its a lost cause - as is perhaps natural given that we are playing close to Y+ fares for Y seats, which sums up the state of 'competitiion' in the Canadian aviation market.

Most Canadians vote with their wallet, time and time again. The demand just simply is not there for upgraded fares!

Quoting longhauler (Reply 17):
Sure, its cool to get little extras ... would you pay for them ... nope. Why do you think aviation is going the other way? Why do you think it is the LCCs that will take over the world? Because that is what the passenger wants ... a cheap safe seat from A to B. Joe Blow traveller doesn't give a rat's empennage about "world class".

Bingo!


User currently offlinezbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1986 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5223 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 19):
Another example, albeit not entirely accurate, since AC Vacations doesn't equal AC. I was browsing Expedia today for some last minute deals for vacation packages down south. I found a 4* resort in Samana (Dominican Republic) with Sunwing. Departure Dec.9, 7 nights, $ 615. The same resort, on the same day, with the same accommodation and other amenities is offered by AC Vacations for $985. What can AC Vacations offer for $370 (or 60% price premium)? Two inches of legroom, half inch of seat width, a PTV on a 4 hour flight (if the aircraft isn't one of the Margueritas) and 50% of status miles? Sorry, I wouldn't go for it, it's just too much of price difference. So in this case, Sunwing's 189 seater B738 would win.

You also get with Sunwing foreign air crew who are brought in against current immigration laws from Sunwing's "big brother'" in Europe who do not need to be trained up onto the 737 in most cases. The training costs that Sunwing can avoid puts them at a huge competitive advantage over Canadian Carriers such as AC and AT who train Canadian pilots onto the equipment they are flying. There were some Czech pilots who came to do a sim ride to operate the 737s here and they failed the TC flight test. They came back a week later operating Czech registered airplanes with the Czech licenses.

Sunwing has told our government that in order to fly for them you need 500 hours 737 time and a current 737 type rating which means almost all Air Canada and Air Transat pilots would be unqualified for positions with Sunwing which is bogus. They are going against the norm in Canada to undercut carriers that employ tax paying Canadian.

Their impact has been so great that AT has had to lay off some pilots recently. So while Sunwing has foreign pilots coming in paying no Canadian income tax, we have AT pilots getting rather large EI cheques.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5087 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 17):

Pretty sure some world class airlines charge a premium (that would be a couple of cents more) and get away with it. SQ comes to mind. BA does it on certain routes.

Personally, I don't have an issue with AC's product. The value-for-money proposition as a Canadian resident on the other hand...

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 22):

Sure they vote with their wallets (insofar as one can 'choose'
when most of the capacity available in Canada is of the same quality/price - at least the tail colors are different, eh - with the exception of a few carriers that aren't allowed to fly daily). Doesn't change the fact that they're priced out of a PE segment by virtue of being burdened by higher Y fares than most (all?) competitive market. I fly Y+ and J when my origin and destination don't involve Canada because the prices are significantly lower. In theory, I would be a potential Y+ customer for AC. The problem is that the 20% premium I am willing to pay is already absorbed in Canadian Y fares.

Does that make me cheap? Or does it mean that the high Y prices have all but obliterated a Canadian premium economy segment to the extent that anything fancier than a UA Y+ is more likely to attract J pax than Y ones?

The Y+ market exists, as is evident in the business models of QF, VS, BA, CX etc... That it doesn't exist much in Canada is a function of airfares (which in turn is related to competition) and disposable income.


25 beechnut : What goes around comes around. Before J class in the mid-80s, Air Canada had a first class cabin that was nowhere near as nice as today's J-class. The
26 Ferroviarius : Indeed!!!!!!!! Ferroviarius
27 WildcatYXU : I have to admit, you've got me on this one. Especially since I'm a naturalized immigrant myself and it was quite a job to obtain the right to live an
28 ytz : With a solid helping of protectionism. How would it fare if we truly had an unrestricted market? I wish we had an LCC in Canada. AC is moving to LCC
29 ElPistolero : I don't know how much of this I buy. The EU countries are no mugs on flight safety. As for pilots, if Sunwing can find a legal way of getting cheap p
30 longhauler : That was my first thought as well. Its just the same thing, with new names .. .and everyone ratchets down one class. In fact, take it back to the L10
31 longhauler : The big issue is "legal". With regard to current Canadian Labour Laws, whether this practise is legal is presently coming under scrutiny. And no, its
32 WildcatYXU : I guess we all agree that viability of Y+boils down to proper pricing. Could someone calculate how much more would have an airline to charge for the Y
33 ElPistolero : As you point out, airline' success on certain routes is based on many factors, particularly the efficient use of scarce resources. I don't think load
34 ytz : Should we compare profits over the life of the companies? Load factor is only half the equation and you know it. And BA scarcely competes in Canada b
35 ytz : If this is true, and the government is permitting wanton violation of the country's immigration laws, why haven't the other carriers gone to court to
36 qf002 : 5 rows of Y at 31" = 4 rows of W at 38" (which is the industry standard for a proper W product). So that's 45-50 Y seats (depending on config) to 32
37 yyz717 : There is no definition of world class. Let's face it.....the ONLY thing that matters is profits. By that standard, Southwest and Westjet are world cl
38 WildcatYXU : Yes, I've done a similar calculation myself and came to similar numbers. However, there is a factor that makes W less expensive - there is about 3000
39 zbbylw : They are in the process of doing that now. It has been and is being looked at. Here is what Sunwing does. During the summer they have a handful of ai
40 ytz : This. Initially, I was quite interested in the 787. But now that 9-abreast is becoming standard, it's more nightmareliner than dreamliner. This is ac
41 ElPistolero : That's not a very good price at all, considering you're going to be in Y+ for only one of those three flights. Effectively paying $800 on a $1350 tic
42 Post contains images WildcatYXU : Couldn't agree more. Agreed again. Based on what's written in this forum, it looks like I'm being screwed again because the airlines have to cater to
43 ElPistolero : If the Y+ segment is once-yearly VFR traffic that is price-sensitive (to some degree), its going to be a difficult one for AC to pull off. If busines
44 Viscount724 : I rarely find AC's fares higher than their competitors on routes where AC offers the lower seating density. And if they are sometimes higher, it does
45 Kaiarahi : I'm dreading the day they're transferred to the LCC (and presumably reconfigured). For the moment I'm spoiled out of YOW - 763 to LHR and FRA, and YU
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