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Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant  
User currently offlinemark8762 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 133 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7167 times:

I just read this article about the FAA certifying Paine Field for scheduled service. It goes on to say Allegiant wants to fly 20 flights per day? I question that, but makes for some interesting speculation.

http://mynorthwest.com/11/2141894/FA...oks-Paine-Field-commercial-flights

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7142 times:

Quoting mark8762 (Thread starter):

What the f*** did I just read?
Where would G4 fly to that would warrent them to have 20 flights a day  
That author needs to check his facts.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3734 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7139 times:

Quoting mark8762 (Thread starter):
I just read this article about the FAA certifying Paine Field for scheduled service. It goes on to say Allegiant wants to fly 20 flights per day? I question that, but makes for some interesting speculation.

G4 has wanted to fly out of PAE for years, and at one time AS opposed the application (not sure if they still do). This is just one of the final steps in the approval process that G4 started at least 3 years ago.

As for cities, I could see LAS, AZA, and HNL for sure, plus maybe OAK, SAN, and LAX (if they can get the LAX gate issues resolved).



Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlineBoeEngr From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 321 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7093 times:

According to KOMO, Allegiant is looking for four flights per week.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/181767441.html


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3734 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7075 times:

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 3):

According to KOMO, Allegiant is looking for four flights per week.

I'm willing to bet two to LAS and two to AZA to start.



Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7076 times:

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 3):

sounds more realistic.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):

Does PAE have an air terminal?
Also if G4 opened up PAE, how would BLI be affected on the AZA and/or HNL route?



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7023 times:

Quoting mark8762 (Thread starter):
Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant

You need to research better. Paine Field is NOT in Seattle, let alone King County. It is in Everett and that is in Snohomish County. Just sayin'.....



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3049 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7016 times:

Not to be too picky, but PAE is not in Seattle. It's in Everett about 30 miles north of Seattle. I've always thought that AS or QX starting a few flights from PAE would be great. There's a large catchment area there and it can very congested freeway traffic to get from the north end to SEA, which is south of Seattle.

I'd consider leaving work someday and flying QX/AS PAE-PDX-SJC for example, rather than driving or taking transportation all the way down to SEA.

Didn't QX withdraw their application to serve PAE?

Many A.nets probably know this, but for the benefit of those not familiar with the area, PAE is the airport adjacent to the Boeing-Everett factory. It also serves a few major maintenance and modification facilities, so obviously the runways can handle anything QX or G4 could throw at it. BLI is still another 70 miles north of PAE.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5400 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6930 times:

And I wouldn't be too surprised if Spirit is paying very close attention to the goings-on at PAE as well... (In fact, NK would make more sense to me than G4 at that airport.)

  

bb

[Edited 2012-12-03 16:29:34]

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6885 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Didn't QX withdraw their application to serve PAE?

Yes, they did...in addition to BFI (By AS). The Port of Seattle does not want competition in the Seattle Metro area, which includes (as they say) PAE and BFI. So the Port has a monopoly, IIRC.

I doubt that PAE will be successful in getting regular service at all. They are gonna have to deal with the Port first.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineboeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6876 times:

I think the residents of surrounding towns need to stop complaining about the supposed "noise pollution" It is one of those things we will have to live with in this century. I believe G4 is heavily committed to getting into Paine Field, and is not going to stop trying until they start flying there. I'm sure people knew about PAE when they built/bought their homes in the area considering the airport has been open since 1936.

I live in the flight path of another small airport with G4 service, and I don't notice any of this supposed "noise pollution" that the residents would be complaining about. Also, US has a daily flight from CLT with A319 that arrives shortly after 11 PM and I don't have a problem with the supposed noise. I rarely hear anything from that.



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently onlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2743 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6876 times:

Quoting mark8762 (Thread starter):
It goes on to say Allegiant wants to fly 20 flights per day?
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 1):
What the f*** did I just read?
Where would G4 fly to that would warrent them to have 20 flights a day
That author needs to check his facts.

Indeed he does. He really screwed the pooch on that one. G4's application states that they want to start with 4 flights per week, and if everything goes well, in 5 years have that slowly increase to 20. That's 20 per WEEK, not per day!

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
There's a large catchment area there and it can very congested freeway traffic to get from the north end to SEA, which is south of Seattle.

  

I hate that drive. Coming back North is even worse, especially at the I-90 interchange (seriously, even in the 1950's, did no one think it was a bad idea to build a freeway where 4 lanes get cut down to 2, right in the middle of downtown?!?!).


Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineBlueBus From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6851 times:

This is about time. I wonder what Boeing thinks about this whole deal.

User currently offlinehatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6832 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):
G4 has wanted to fly out of PAE for years, and at one time AS opposed the application (not sure if they still do)

Opposed it? When? AS asked that they be allowed to fly out of PAE too if G4 was granted access. Not opposed it.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
I'd consider leaving work someday and flying QX/AS PAE-PDX-SJC for example, rather than driving or taking transportation all the way down to SEA.

AS would fly a few flights a day to PDX and GEG QX if they are granted approval.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 5):
Does PAE have an air terminal?

I don't believe there is one, no. They'd have to put up a modular one.


User currently onlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2743 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6824 times:

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 10):
I'm sure people knew about PAE when they built/bought their homes in the area considering the airport has been open since 1936.

  

I never ended up having the time, but I always really wanted to go to one of the community meetings during the comment period, and ask all those residents who oppose passenger service what their ages are. IMO, only the residents @ 68 and over would be worth listening to. Everyone else would have moved-in/purchased their property AFTER Boeing moved in. In other words, they D*#% well knew what they were getting into. . .

(I'd also point out the the airport is owned by SNOHOMISH COUNTY, not the city of Mukilteo. So if passenger flights bring a positive economic benefit to the entire county, then that's all that needs be decided.)

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6814 times:

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 12):
I wonder what Boeing thinks about this whole deal.

Its not Boeing that is the problem. Boeing has no say, I don't think, nor do they care. It is the Port of Seattle that is the problem along with the FAA.

Also, IIRC, the FAA threatened to withhold federal money from PAE (there was a thread about it a couple years ago) if they did not allow G4 or somebody else, I don't remember, to start flights at that airport. Someone correct me if I am wrong....



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently onlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2743 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6801 times:

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 12):
I wonder what Boeing thinks about this whole deal.

Boeing actually weighed in on the matter during the Evironmental Review process. Afterall, I doubt anyone in the area would have really pursued it very far if it was going to piss off your largest employer. Boeing stated that any proposed passenger service at PAE would have NO impact on their operations.

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently onlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2743 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6765 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
It is the Port of Seattle that is the problem along

The P.o.S. might have a problem with it, but they also have no say in it, either. PAE is owned and operated by SnoCo, not POS. Sure, they might have joined the NIMBY's in publically opposing it (can't remember if they ever did or not, I just remember the very vocal NIMBY group), but that's about all they can/could do about it.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Also, IIRC, the FAA threatened to withhold federal money from PAE (there was a thread about it a couple years ago) if they did not allow G4 or somebody else, I don't remember, to start flights at that airport. Someone correct me if I am wrong....

Nope, you're spot on. I don't know if the FAA ever actually threatened to withhold money, but when the process first started, they did make it clear that, should the applications be approved and the council still denied G4/QX/etc. from operating from PAE, then the FAA would be well within their legal right to withhold that federal assistance money, which is only granted based on PAE being a public airport.

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 6547 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):
G4 has wanted to fly out of PAE for years, and at one time AS opposed the application (not sure if they still do).

I'm sure AS still opposes...it's no good for them to have a much lower cost carrier operating out of a much lower cost airport right in their backyard.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 5):
Does PAE have an air terminal?

Not really. There is a decent sized FBO but nothing that would even remotely qualify as a terminal.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 5):
Also if G4 opened up PAE, how would BLI be affected on the AZA and/or HNL route?

Not much...BLI is far more about serving Vancouver traffic than Seattle.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 10):
I think the residents of surrounding towns need to stop complaining about the supposed "noise pollution"

Most of those residents moved in when the only jet traffic out of PAE was Boeing, which is low frequency, only in the day (except under unusual circumstances), and the city/county were all jumping up and down to swear there'd be no commercial traffic out of PAE. It's fair to say they should not have expected an Allegiant-type carrier.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 10):
I'm sure people knew about PAE when they built/bought their homes in the area considering the airport has been open since 1936.

It wasn't a large jet airport until the 70's, and then only Boeing production, which is low frequency and only flies in the day.

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 12):
This is about time. I wonder what Boeing thinks about this whole deal.

I doubt they care.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 14):
Everyone else would have moved-in/purchased their property AFTER Boeing moved in.

Boeing isn't the big noise source at the times of day people care about.

Tom.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5501 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6350 times:

I always thought a PDX-based regional that could feed DL's Pacific hub would have been great, and a key route could have been PDX-PAE. That train left the station so I guess the primary multiple frequency driver would be AS/QX, with Q400 service to GEG and PDX, and possibly SFO. AS could conceivably do PAE-LAX/LAS/PHX but probably would prefer to feed their own flights from SEA/PDX.

I hope they change their mind and add service. There are many people between SEA and PAE, and if you draw a 30 mile circle around PAE you'd see a big potential market.

I agree that NK could be an option, and therefore F9 PAE-DEN, but G4 is the likely beneficiary.

A previous thread on the subject from 2009:

Paine Field Close To Agreement With Horizon (by FATFlyer Apr 2 2009 in Civil Aviation)

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineStudeDave From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6240 times:

I'm not gonna waste my time with the link 'cuz it posts here have already raised the 'BS' flag.

What I will say is that news stories I have seen for the last several days have talked about how the FAA has said as many as 23 flights per day would not be any more of an impact on day to day then what is there at PAE now. Also mentioned is how Alaska (and Horizon) were onboard at one time, but they don't seem to be now- unless G4 sets up shop.

So as I see it- it seems to be a wait and see sort of deal as to who will serve my old hometown field.
I have been known to be wrong, though...




StudeDave



Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
User currently offline707lvr From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 583 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6144 times:

The only NIMBY's who might have a case, or believe they do, would be people who moved under the flight paths after Paine was an Air Force Base and before Boeing came in. Older folks survived F-102's which were far louder than anything which could be heard there today. Seattle-area folks (fewer all the time, sadly) are fairly contemptuous of people who complain about airplane noise.

User currently offlineBoeEngr From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 321 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5963 times:

As a resident of Mukilteo, I say bring it. I would love to be able to fly out of PAE (come on, Horizon). The travel benefits would, for me and my family, far outweigh the noise issues.

As for the noise, I'm not one to care, though I know I don't represent everyone. I'm still the geek who, when I hear an airplane, rushes to my window or deck to see what it is...


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3049 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5893 times:

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 22):
As a resident of Mukilteo, I say bring it. I would love to be able to fly out of PAE (come on, Horizon). The travel benefits would, for me and my family, far outweigh the noise issues.

As for the noise, I'm not one to care, though I know I don't represent everyone. I'm still the geek who, when I hear an airplane, rushes to my window or deck to see what it is...

Yep, I think any of us who participate in A.net can say the same thing. I work on a certain program in a certain building at the bottom of Harbour Heights Blvd in Mukilteo. Frequently, when I'm driving on the Speedway or at that shopping area with the QFC near the end of PAE's runway, a 747-8 or 787 will be arriving or departing. I'll still run outside or look up while driving to watch it - just like a little kid might do.

With the Boeing airplanes and jet ferry flights to BF Goodrich that already regularly use PAE, I fail to see how a few quiet QX Q400s would be a noise problem for nearby residents.


User currently offlinecharlib52 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 164 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5880 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
It wasn't a large jet airport until the 70's, and then only Boeing production, which is low frequency and only flies in the day.

Actually in the 50s-60's Paine Air Force Base had jet interceptors, but I think I know what you meant - large jet airliners. Here's a wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paine_Air_Force_Base

So Paine has had a lot of activity for a very long time. Undoubtedly things are much better now - can you imagine the sound those F-106's must have put out...


25 7BOEING7 : If in fact commercial service does start at PAE it will only be a matter of time until Allegiant is not the only operator. Anybody that shows up and p
26 seachaz : Couldn't agree more but sounds like this is being fought mostly by Mukilteo which has fairly wealthy residents (and some nice homes with nice views)
27 Post contains images wnflyguy : I wouldn't be surprised to see NK or WN jumping in on PAE service also once flights are approved. It's no secret that WN is not happy with the High co
28 Post contains links Scottsea : From http://www.komonews.com/news/local/F...vice-at-Paine-Field-182074771.html "EVERETT, Wash. -- The Federal Aviation Administration on Tuesday said
29 Post contains links seachaz : I'm sure these guys will: Save Our Communities The lead item on the page currently claims commercial and manufacturing traffic can't co-exist on one
30 7BOEING7 : Having spent half my life operating out of PAE a couple of days a week, I can say their statement couldn't be farther off the mark. For the most part
31 dlramp4life : I love how they compare PAE to SAN and use a picture from BOS I could see AS having a big success with either the OO CR7 or 737-700 to western gatewa
32 SANFan : I can't see WN being interested in PAE. BFI was a much different situation with its location not that far from either downtown Seattle or from SEA/TAC
33 7BOEING7 : Why go to Bellingham, if you're flying out of PAE they'll come to you. WN doesn't need the connections SEA/TAC provides or the high cost of operation
34 Post contains links rgreenftm : AS apparently made a statement to the effect that if their competitors start flying out of PAE, that they would respond with both Q400 and 737 flights
35 F9animal : So excited to see G4 will be coming closer to SEA! Finally! I am really happy to get some great fares to LAS.
36 7BOEING7 : Alaska's VP Planning doesn't sound to happy--actually he sounds scared. His comments apply more to people visiting the area than those of us living h
37 seachaz : This is their home turf of course he's not happy. Having to run operations out of two airports serving the same customer base isn't cost effective no
38 StudeDave : Now that's a good line. Too bad it's not very true. Those 'Save Our Community' guys must be using the same spin machine that is trying to prevent the
39 HiFlyerAS : He doesn't sound scared....he sounds annoyed. Starting flights out of PAE is a PAEN in the ass. It's easy for some outfit like G4 that comes and goes
40 7BOEING7 : If you build it, they will come.
41 AirframeAS : You gotta be kidding me. The downside of flying G4 anywhere is that they don't operate to one single destination daily. That is a turn off to me. If
42 7BOEING7 : Allegiant is just the opening shot, no body wants to fly Allegiant (except my in-laws), it's Southwest, Alaska and Continental (I mean United). It doe
43 rgreenftm : LA also obviously has a much larger catchment than SEA. Where are the additional passengers going to come from to fill two sets of flights to CA or P
44 AirframeAS : Have you been to LA lately? There is a reason why LA has 5 airports, the population is a heck of a lot bigger than Seattle is. Your comparison is app
45 7BOEING7 : I agree if your're talking about today, but you need to look 15, 20, 30 years in the future or back. In 1970 the greater LA population was about 10 m
46 tdscanuck : It's pretty true...Paine Field was heavily modified and expanded to support Boeing. Without aerospace manufacturing, it would be just another former
47 FATFlyer : Although many routes are only 2 or 3 days per week, G4 also has routes that are daily or 6 days/week. BLI-LAS is one route I can remember off the top
48 Post contains links seachaz : Several articles out today with more specifics: "Horizon Air and Allegiant Air plan to begin providing service between the airport and three cities --
49 PlanesNTrains : Were I Allegiant, I would certainly low-ball my expectations rather than have an uproar preclude me from entering the market at all. Once in, it'll b
50 AirframeAS : No, we don't. We need to be looking what's in front of us, present day. Your opinion. Sea-Tac isn't busting at the seams yet. If you're so worried ab
51 allegiantflyer : Does G4 have any routes that are daily?
52 FATFlyer : As I said just a few posts up.....
53 mark8762 : There are two other examples I can think of off the top of my head. They are IWA/AZA to LAS and OAK. The route to OAK is to trade out aircraft on a j
54 StudeDave : BLI-LAS (and the reverse) is many times daily. StudeDave
55 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : I thought maybe that was a tad excessive so I checked their website. For random dates in February, they had 2-4 flights per day each way. I'd say tha
56 StudeDave : Even though most inbounds to BLI fly over my area everyday- I will admit to checking their website before I posted. StudeDave
57 ADent : What else are we to do? There aren't any other airports in the metro area with service. Plus DEN has non-stops to LOTS of cities. BTW it is 24 miles
58 Post contains images AirframeAS : My parents live in Kitsap County, and it takes an hour and a half to get to SEA. Anyone who lives in Kitsap County hasn't complained about the commut
59 HiFlyerAS : And three of the five airports are underutilized and in the case of one could be considered a failure. ONT built a big, shiny new terminal just as th
60 bjorn14 : G4 is bringing some noisy Mad Dogs or maybe 319s. Is the County gonna pay for this? Yeah right that how come Boeing said it would have no effecton th
61 tdscanuck : Out of Everett, every month Boeing builds ~2 747s, ~1 767s, ~7 777s, and ~5 787s. Each plane needs, on average, about 4 flights before delivery. That
62 7BOEING7 : Looks like the only people trashing this good news are the NIMBY's, Alaska's VP of planning and the people with "AS" attached to the username--hmmmmm.
63 PlanesNTrains : AirframeAS, why are you being so aggressive about this? You mention people in Kitsap County not complaining. Well, they must have complained a little
64 jporterfi : That's not true; B6 offers service to JFK using an A320. I'd say if they can do BUR-JFK, then BUR is capable of providing service to all major market
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