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Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant  
User currently offlinemark8762 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 133 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7290 times:

I just read this article about the FAA certifying Paine Field for scheduled service. It goes on to say Allegiant wants to fly 20 flights per day? I question that, but makes for some interesting speculation.

http://mynorthwest.com/11/2141894/FA...oks-Paine-Field-commercial-flights

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 965 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7265 times:

Quoting mark8762 (Thread starter):

What the f*** did I just read?
Where would G4 fly to that would warrent them to have 20 flights a day  
That author needs to check his facts.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7262 times:

Quoting mark8762 (Thread starter):
I just read this article about the FAA certifying Paine Field for scheduled service. It goes on to say Allegiant wants to fly 20 flights per day? I question that, but makes for some interesting speculation.

G4 has wanted to fly out of PAE for years, and at one time AS opposed the application (not sure if they still do). This is just one of the final steps in the approval process that G4 started at least 3 years ago.

As for cities, I could see LAS, AZA, and HNL for sure, plus maybe OAK, SAN, and LAX (if they can get the LAX gate issues resolved).



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineBoeEngr From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 321 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7216 times:

According to KOMO, Allegiant is looking for four flights per week.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/181767441.html


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7198 times:

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 3):

According to KOMO, Allegiant is looking for four flights per week.

I'm willing to bet two to LAS and two to AZA to start.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 965 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7199 times:

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 3):

sounds more realistic.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):

Does PAE have an air terminal?
Also if G4 opened up PAE, how would BLI be affected on the AZA and/or HNL route?



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7146 times:

Quoting mark8762 (Thread starter):
Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant

You need to research better. Paine Field is NOT in Seattle, let alone King County. It is in Everett and that is in Snohomish County. Just sayin'.....



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7139 times:

Not to be too picky, but PAE is not in Seattle. It's in Everett about 30 miles north of Seattle. I've always thought that AS or QX starting a few flights from PAE would be great. There's a large catchment area there and it can very congested freeway traffic to get from the north end to SEA, which is south of Seattle.

I'd consider leaving work someday and flying QX/AS PAE-PDX-SJC for example, rather than driving or taking transportation all the way down to SEA.

Didn't QX withdraw their application to serve PAE?

Many A.nets probably know this, but for the benefit of those not familiar with the area, PAE is the airport adjacent to the Boeing-Everett factory. It also serves a few major maintenance and modification facilities, so obviously the runways can handle anything QX or G4 could throw at it. BLI is still another 70 miles north of PAE.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5604 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7053 times:

And I wouldn't be too surprised if Spirit is paying very close attention to the goings-on at PAE as well... (In fact, NK would make more sense to me than G4 at that airport.)

  

bb

[Edited 2012-12-03 16:29:34]

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7008 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Didn't QX withdraw their application to serve PAE?

Yes, they did...in addition to BFI (By AS). The Port of Seattle does not want competition in the Seattle Metro area, which includes (as they say) PAE and BFI. So the Port has a monopoly, IIRC.

I doubt that PAE will be successful in getting regular service at all. They are gonna have to deal with the Port first.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineboeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6999 times:

I think the residents of surrounding towns need to stop complaining about the supposed "noise pollution" It is one of those things we will have to live with in this century. I believe G4 is heavily committed to getting into Paine Field, and is not going to stop trying until they start flying there. I'm sure people knew about PAE when they built/bought their homes in the area considering the airport has been open since 1936.

I live in the flight path of another small airport with G4 service, and I don't notice any of this supposed "noise pollution" that the residents would be complaining about. Also, US has a daily flight from CLT with A319 that arrives shortly after 11 PM and I don't have a problem with the supposed noise. I rarely hear anything from that.



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2754 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6999 times:

Quoting mark8762 (Thread starter):
It goes on to say Allegiant wants to fly 20 flights per day?
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 1):
What the f*** did I just read?
Where would G4 fly to that would warrent them to have 20 flights a day
That author needs to check his facts.

Indeed he does. He really screwed the pooch on that one. G4's application states that they want to start with 4 flights per week, and if everything goes well, in 5 years have that slowly increase to 20. That's 20 per WEEK, not per day!

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
There's a large catchment area there and it can very congested freeway traffic to get from the north end to SEA, which is south of Seattle.

  

I hate that drive. Coming back North is even worse, especially at the I-90 interchange (seriously, even in the 1950's, did no one think it was a bad idea to build a freeway where 4 lanes get cut down to 2, right in the middle of downtown?!?!).


Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineBlueBus From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6974 times:

This is about time. I wonder what Boeing thinks about this whole deal.

User currently offlinehatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6955 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):
G4 has wanted to fly out of PAE for years, and at one time AS opposed the application (not sure if they still do)

Opposed it? When? AS asked that they be allowed to fly out of PAE too if G4 was granted access. Not opposed it.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
I'd consider leaving work someday and flying QX/AS PAE-PDX-SJC for example, rather than driving or taking transportation all the way down to SEA.

AS would fly a few flights a day to PDX and GEG QX if they are granted approval.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 5):
Does PAE have an air terminal?

I don't believe there is one, no. They'd have to put up a modular one.


User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2754 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6947 times:

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 10):
I'm sure people knew about PAE when they built/bought their homes in the area considering the airport has been open since 1936.

  

I never ended up having the time, but I always really wanted to go to one of the community meetings during the comment period, and ask all those residents who oppose passenger service what their ages are. IMO, only the residents @ 68 and over would be worth listening to. Everyone else would have moved-in/purchased their property AFTER Boeing moved in. In other words, they D*#% well knew what they were getting into. . .

(I'd also point out the the airport is owned by SNOHOMISH COUNTY, not the city of Mukilteo. So if passenger flights bring a positive economic benefit to the entire county, then that's all that needs be decided.)

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6937 times:

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 12):
I wonder what Boeing thinks about this whole deal.

Its not Boeing that is the problem. Boeing has no say, I don't think, nor do they care. It is the Port of Seattle that is the problem along with the FAA.

Also, IIRC, the FAA threatened to withhold federal money from PAE (there was a thread about it a couple years ago) if they did not allow G4 or somebody else, I don't remember, to start flights at that airport. Someone correct me if I am wrong....



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2754 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6924 times:

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 12):
I wonder what Boeing thinks about this whole deal.

Boeing actually weighed in on the matter during the Evironmental Review process. Afterall, I doubt anyone in the area would have really pursued it very far if it was going to piss off your largest employer. Boeing stated that any proposed passenger service at PAE would have NO impact on their operations.

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2754 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6888 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
It is the Port of Seattle that is the problem along

The P.o.S. might have a problem with it, but they also have no say in it, either. PAE is owned and operated by SnoCo, not POS. Sure, they might have joined the NIMBY's in publically opposing it (can't remember if they ever did or not, I just remember the very vocal NIMBY group), but that's about all they can/could do about it.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Also, IIRC, the FAA threatened to withhold federal money from PAE (there was a thread about it a couple years ago) if they did not allow G4 or somebody else, I don't remember, to start flights at that airport. Someone correct me if I am wrong....

Nope, you're spot on. I don't know if the FAA ever actually threatened to withhold money, but when the process first started, they did make it clear that, should the applications be approved and the council still denied G4/QX/etc. from operating from PAE, then the FAA would be well within their legal right to withhold that federal assistance money, which is only granted based on PAE being a public airport.

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6670 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):
G4 has wanted to fly out of PAE for years, and at one time AS opposed the application (not sure if they still do).

I'm sure AS still opposes...it's no good for them to have a much lower cost carrier operating out of a much lower cost airport right in their backyard.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 5):
Does PAE have an air terminal?

Not really. There is a decent sized FBO but nothing that would even remotely qualify as a terminal.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 5):
Also if G4 opened up PAE, how would BLI be affected on the AZA and/or HNL route?

Not much...BLI is far more about serving Vancouver traffic than Seattle.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 10):
I think the residents of surrounding towns need to stop complaining about the supposed "noise pollution"

Most of those residents moved in when the only jet traffic out of PAE was Boeing, which is low frequency, only in the day (except under unusual circumstances), and the city/county were all jumping up and down to swear there'd be no commercial traffic out of PAE. It's fair to say they should not have expected an Allegiant-type carrier.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 10):
I'm sure people knew about PAE when they built/bought their homes in the area considering the airport has been open since 1936.

It wasn't a large jet airport until the 70's, and then only Boeing production, which is low frequency and only flies in the day.

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 12):
This is about time. I wonder what Boeing thinks about this whole deal.

I doubt they care.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 14):
Everyone else would have moved-in/purchased their property AFTER Boeing moved in.

Boeing isn't the big noise source at the times of day people care about.

Tom.


User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5796 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6473 times:

I always thought a PDX-based regional that could feed DL's Pacific hub would have been great, and a key route could have been PDX-PAE. That train left the station so I guess the primary multiple frequency driver would be AS/QX, with Q400 service to GEG and PDX, and possibly SFO. AS could conceivably do PAE-LAX/LAS/PHX but probably would prefer to feed their own flights from SEA/PDX.

I hope they change their mind and add service. There are many people between SEA and PAE, and if you draw a 30 mile circle around PAE you'd see a big potential market.

I agree that NK could be an option, and therefore F9 PAE-DEN, but G4 is the likely beneficiary.

A previous thread on the subject from 2009:

Paine Field Close To Agreement With Horizon (by FATFlyer Apr 2 2009 in Civil Aviation)

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineStudeDave From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6363 times:

I'm not gonna waste my time with the link 'cuz it posts here have already raised the 'BS' flag.

What I will say is that news stories I have seen for the last several days have talked about how the FAA has said as many as 23 flights per day would not be any more of an impact on day to day then what is there at PAE now. Also mentioned is how Alaska (and Horizon) were onboard at one time, but they don't seem to be now- unless G4 sets up shop.

So as I see it- it seems to be a wait and see sort of deal as to who will serve my old hometown field.
I have been known to be wrong, though...




StudeDave



Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
User currently offline707lvr From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6267 times:

The only NIMBY's who might have a case, or believe they do, would be people who moved under the flight paths after Paine was an Air Force Base and before Boeing came in. Older folks survived F-102's which were far louder than anything which could be heard there today. Seattle-area folks (fewer all the time, sadly) are fairly contemptuous of people who complain about airplane noise.

User currently offlineBoeEngr From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 321 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6086 times:

As a resident of Mukilteo, I say bring it. I would love to be able to fly out of PAE (come on, Horizon). The travel benefits would, for me and my family, far outweigh the noise issues.

As for the noise, I'm not one to care, though I know I don't represent everyone. I'm still the geek who, when I hear an airplane, rushes to my window or deck to see what it is...


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6016 times:

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 22):
As a resident of Mukilteo, I say bring it. I would love to be able to fly out of PAE (come on, Horizon). The travel benefits would, for me and my family, far outweigh the noise issues.

As for the noise, I'm not one to care, though I know I don't represent everyone. I'm still the geek who, when I hear an airplane, rushes to my window or deck to see what it is...

Yep, I think any of us who participate in A.net can say the same thing. I work on a certain program in a certain building at the bottom of Harbour Heights Blvd in Mukilteo. Frequently, when I'm driving on the Speedway or at that shopping area with the QFC near the end of PAE's runway, a 747-8 or 787 will be arriving or departing. I'll still run outside or look up while driving to watch it - just like a little kid might do.

With the Boeing airplanes and jet ferry flights to BF Goodrich that already regularly use PAE, I fail to see how a few quiet QX Q400s would be a noise problem for nearby residents.


User currently offlinecharlib52 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 165 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6003 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
It wasn't a large jet airport until the 70's, and then only Boeing production, which is low frequency and only flies in the day.

Actually in the 50s-60's Paine Air Force Base had jet interceptors, but I think I know what you meant - large jet airliners. Here's a wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paine_Air_Force_Base

So Paine has had a lot of activity for a very long time. Undoubtedly things are much better now - can you imagine the sound those F-106's must have put out...


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1772 posts, RR: 16
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4949 times:

If in fact commercial service does start at PAE it will only be a matter of time until Allegiant is not the only operator. Anybody that shows up and provides service to the "southland" (LA, PHX, LAS, SD etc) will have no problem filling the planes. I'm guessing 25% or more of the people now flying south from SEA would jump at the chance to make the same flight from PAE.

User currently offlineseachaz From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4505 times:

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 10):

I think the residents of surrounding towns need to stop complaining about the supposed "noise pollution" It is one of those things we will have to live with in this century.

Couldn't agree more but sounds like this is being fought mostly by Mukilteo which has fairly wealthy residents (and some nice homes with nice views) - they more or less promised to entangle any proposal for scheduled airline service in red tape which is why its taken the FAA so long to release its decision (which as of today still hasn't been announced). Something on the order of 2000 pages worth of comments had to be evaluated/responded to which is far more then was anticipated from what it sounds like.

Personally I'm for some sort of regular service at Paine, as others have stated getting to/from Seatac is a real hassle if you live north of Seattle. As far as a terminal, nothing now but shouldn't be too hard to create something temporary near the tower short term. Long term they could reconfigure the space near the tower or move to the west side.


User currently offlinewnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

I wouldn't be surprised to see NK or WN jumping in on PAE service also once flights are approved.
It's no secret that WN is not happy with the High cost of SEA.
PAE could turn into another pissing match like BFI was.
Which could have PAE become the LGB of Seattle area with service allowed but with a flight cap and curfew.
I could see WN with 5 flts total and service to OAK,DEN and LAS.
wnfg 



my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
User currently offlineScottsea From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4482 times:

From http://www.komonews.com/news/local/F...vice-at-Paine-Field-182074771.html

"EVERETT, Wash. -- The Federal Aviation Administration on Tuesday said it found "no significant impact" during its final environmental assessment of the proposal to allow commercial flights at Paine Field.

The FAA's finding paves the way for commercial air service at the county-owned airport; however, the final decision will be made by the Snohomish County Council.

If the plan moves forward, Allegiant Air reportedly wants to schedule four commercial flights each week Paine Field with plans to increase service in the future.

If anyone opposes the FAA's findings, the proposal could end up in court."


User currently offlineseachaz From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 29, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4323 times:

Quoting Scottsea (Reply 28):
If anyone opposes the FAA's findings, the proposal could end up in court.

I'm sure these guys will: Save Our Communities

The lead item on the page currently claims commercial and manufacturing traffic can't co-exist on one runway:
"Just like San Diego, Paine Field's single main runway could accommodate a lot of airline service over time. Do we really want to crowd out an economic power-house like Boeing with traffic like this? How would Boeing test and launch new aircraft in these conditions? Sea-Tac was built for this. Paine Field was built to support aerospace manufacturing. The two functions differ significantly and shouldn't be mixed together."


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1772 posts, RR: 16
Reply 30, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4053 times:

Quoting seachaz (Reply 29):
Quoting Scottsea (Reply 28):If anyone opposes the FAA's findings, the proposal could end up in court.
I'm sure these guys will: Save Our Communities

The lead item on the page currently claims commercial and manufacturing traffic can't co-exist on one runway:
"Just like San Diego, Paine Field's single main runway could accommodate a lot of airline service over time. Do we really want to crowd out an economic power-house like Boeing with traffic like this? How would Boeing test and launch new aircraft in these conditions? Sea-Tac was built for this. Paine Field was built to support aerospace manufacturing. The two functions differ significantly and shouldn't be mixed together."

Having spent half my life operating out of PAE a couple of days a week, I can say their statement couldn't be farther off the mark. For the most part Boeing doesn't do experimental flight test or training out of PAE and if they flew all of their productions flights including all their 737's thru PAE that would work out to about 5 or 6 flights a day. A fair amount of commercial traffic would probably be of benefit by forcing improvements to the approaches (lower minimums) and the snow removal cababilty (for the few days it snows).


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 965 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4023 times:

Quoting seachaz (Reply 29):
I'm sure these guys will: Save Our Communities

I love how they compare PAE to SAN and use a picture from BOS


I could see AS having a big success with either the OO CR7 or 737-700 to western gateways



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5604 posts, RR: 12
Reply 32, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3849 times:

I can't see WN being interested in PAE. BFI was a much different situation with its location not that far from either downtown Seattle or from SEA/TAC. Paine is neither. If WN -- and it's a huge IF -- were interested in another airport in the northwest corner of the country, I'm sure they would waltz into BLI and fight for the Canadian traffic along with everyone else.

But NK has still not landed in the Seattle area at all and given the high cost of SEA/TAC I could certainly see them liking the idea of setting up shop with 4 or 5 daily flights out of Paine to the usual NK destinations such as AZA, SAN, DFW and LAS. In fact, I would bet a buck that they have NOT come into the area yet because they are waiting to see what happens with the PAE situation...

G4 intrigues me a bit as to why they would want to self-compete with BLI except that maybe they think they would get more Seattle-based travelers at PAE who don't currently want to make the drive all the way to Bellingham?

bb


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1772 posts, RR: 16
Reply 33, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3741 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 32):
I can't see WN being interested in PAE. BFI was a much different situation with its location not that far from either downtown Seattle or from SEA/TAC. Paine is neither. If WN -- and it's a huge IF -- were interested in another airport in the northwest corner of the country, I'm sure they would waltz into BLI and fight for the Canadian traffic along with everyone else.

Why go to Bellingham, if you're flying out of PAE they'll come to you. WN doesn't need the connections SEA/TAC provides or the high cost of operations. BFI would be a more viable option but the Port of Seattle isn't going to compete with itself. Also, from anywhere slightly north of the center of Seattle and Bellevue its a lot easier to get to PAE especially before 9AM or after 2PM on weekdays.


User currently offlinergreenftm From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3722 times:

AS apparently made a statement to the effect that if their competitors start flying out of PAE, that they would respond with both Q400 and 737 flights.

http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...ng-paine-field-commercial-service/


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5128 posts, RR: 28
Reply 35, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

So excited to see G4 will be coming closer to SEA! Finally! I am really happy to get some great fares to LAS.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1772 posts, RR: 16
Reply 36, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

Quoting rgreenftm (Reply 34):
AS apparently made a statement to the effect that if their competitors start flying out of PAE, that they would respond with both Q400 and 737 flights.

http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...vice/

Alaska's VP Planning doesn't sound to happy--actually he sounds scared. His comments apply more to people visiting the area than those of us living here that occasionally need a break in a sunnier climate. Except for tourists and a few people that live in condo's downtown nobody will be taking the light rail to the airport anytime soon and if I live here the rental car facility isn't of any value to me. The terminal is nice but I'd rather be on a flight on my way than hanging out there. The minute somebody starts operations from PAE to the "sun" they will have to compete or lose a lot of business in that market.


User currently offlineseachaz From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 37, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3577 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 36):
Alaska's VP Planning doesn't sound to happy

This is their home turf of course he's not happy. Having to run operations out of two airports serving the same customer base isn't cost effective nor is letting your competitor steal your customers. I'm also curious how much of the capital improvements they are paying for on the N Satellite renovation at Seatac - might now better spent on PAE facilities.


User currently offlineStudeDave From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

Quoting seachaz (Reply 29):
"Paine Field was built to support aerospace manufacturing."

Now that's a good line. Too bad it's not very true.

Those 'Save Our Community' guys must be using the same spin machine that is trying to prevent the coal terminal up here in Whatcom County. Their website is full of a bunch of BS about trains and coal!!!




StudeDave



Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1016 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3433 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 36):
Alaska's VP Planning doesn't sound to happy--actually he sounds scared.

He doesn't sound scared....he sounds annoyed. Starting flights out of PAE is a PAEN in the ass. It's easy for some outfit like G4 that comes and goes into airports at the drop of a hat. AS has no choice but to respond...just like they did in BLI. But just how many people are we talking that will fly out of PAE and to where? LAS? HNL? What are the terminal facilities? Parking? Rental cars available? Lots to consider...and SeaTac has the infrastructure in place. I'm tempted to say ignore PAE but you don't want to just roll over when others invade your turf.



Next trip...DL RJ SEA-LAX/AM LAX-MEX Dec 23
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1772 posts, RR: 16
Reply 40, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 39):
What are the terminal facilities? Parking? Rental cars available? Lots to consider...

If you build it, they will come.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 41, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 35):
So excited to see G4 will be coming closer to SEA! Finally! I am really happy to get some great fares to LAS.

You gotta be kidding me. The downside of flying G4 anywhere is that they don't operate to one single destination daily. That is a turn off to me. If I have an emergency and need to get back at moment's notice, I am SOL. I would have to wait until the next flight back to where I came from, which could be 2-3 days out at the most. To me, that is bad business.

G4 does not operate a single flight daily, AFAIK. LAS or AZA-Fort Collins is not daily.

This is why I will not do business with G4.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1772 posts, RR: 16
Reply 42, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

Allegiant is just the opening shot, no body wants to fly Allegiant (except my in-laws), it's Southwest, Alaska and Continental (I mean United). It doesn't matter how many runways SEA has, it gets to be more of a pain every year to get to and thru the airport for a large percentage of the people in the Greater Seattle area--it is not a good experience. I may not have all the departures to chose from at PAE compared to SEA but the trip will be a lot nicer experience. LA has 5, I think we can support 2.

User currently offlinergreenftm From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3224 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 42):
LA has 5, I think we can support 2.

LA also obviously has a much larger catchment than SEA. Where are the additional passengers going to come from to fill two sets of flights to CA or PHX or LAS? Likely operating costs out of PAE would be lower, which in theory should mean lower prices from PAE - cannibalizing those competing flights at SEA.

I don't have a strong preference one way or another - maybe leaning slightly towards wanting the PAE flights, but Snohomish County would be wise to try to price fees similar to SEA in an effort to discourage growth at PAE.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 44, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3132 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 42):
LA has 5, I think we can support 2.

Have you been to LA lately? There is a reason why LA has 5 airports, the population is a heck of a lot bigger than Seattle is. Your comparison is apples and oranges, really.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1772 posts, RR: 16
Reply 45, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3040 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 44):
Have you been to LA lately? There is a reason why LA has 5 airports, the population is a heck of a lot bigger than Seattle is. Your comparison is apples and oranges, really.

I agree if your're talking about today, but you need to look 15, 20, 30 years in the future or back. In 1970 the greater LA population was about 10 million and they had 5 airports of varying sizes--today the greater Seattle population is 3.5 million and we have just 1. With the Seattle area population still increasing it's time start looking for another airport.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 46, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3031 times:

Quoting StudeDave (Reply 38):
Quoting seachaz (Reply 29):
"Paine Field was built to support aerospace manufacturing."

Now that's a good line. Too bad it's not very true.

It's pretty true...Paine Field was heavily modified and expanded to support Boeing. Without aerospace manufacturing, it would be just another former Air Force base-turned GA airport.

Tom.


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5848 posts, RR: 28
Reply 47, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2949 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 41):
G4 does not operate a single flight daily, AFAIK. LAS or AZA-Fort Collins is not daily.

Although many routes are only 2 or 3 days per week, G4 also has routes that are daily or 6 days/week.

BLI-LAS is one route I can remember off the top of my head that has flights every day of the week (some days are only a single flight on the route, other days 2X or 3X).

Other routes are operated daily or 6 days/week as demand warrants. For example, SCK-LAS increases to 6 days/week in March (currently only 4 days/week). Some of those days SCK-LAS sees multiple flights.

G4 will operate whatever frequency and days they can profitably fly (with the planes at close to 85-90% LF).

I would not be surprised to see future G4 Paine service grow to 6 or 7 days per week based on the potential market area.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineseachaz From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 48, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2880 times:

Several articles out today with more specifics:

"Horizon Air and Allegiant Air plan to begin providing service between the airport and three cities -- Portland, Spokane and Las Vegas. Horizon was approved to operate Bombardier Q400 Dash 8s out of the airport, while Allegiant was approved to fly the MD83 aircraft."
http://www.king5.com/news/cities/eve...veretts-Paine-Field-182082601.html

"In the run-up to the FAA's final decision, the county planned a two-gate, 30,000-square-foot terminal for the airport, but has vowed not to spend county money on it. Any agreement with airlines would include a terminal that would pay for itself with revenue, the county says."
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019829613_painefield05m.html


User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5796 posts, RR: 28
Reply 49, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2852 times:

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 47):
I would not be surprised to see future G4 Paine service grow to 6 or 7 days per week based on the potential market area.

Were I Allegiant, I would certainly low-ball my expectations rather than have an uproar preclude me from entering the market at all. Once in, it'll be pretty easy to gradually add service, which I can't imagine that they'd say no to if they are making money.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 50, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2737 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 45):
but you need to look 15, 20, 30 years in the future or back.

No, we don't. We need to be looking what's in front of us, present day.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 45):
With the Seattle area population still increasing it's time start looking for another airport.

Your opinion. Sea-Tac isn't busting at the seams yet. If you're so worried about the commute, look at DEN. The airport is in BFE with grass. It's like 20 mies from downtown Denver. People complain, yeah but they still take flights at DEN anyway.

We are crying over spilt milk, it seems.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineallegiantflyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

Does G4 have any routes that are daily?

User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5848 posts, RR: 28
Reply 52, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

Quoting allegiantflyer (Reply 51):
Does G4 have any routes that are daily?

As I said just a few posts up.....

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 47):
Although many routes are only 2 or 3 days per week, G4 also has routes that are daily or 6 days/week.

BLI-LAS is one route I can remember off the top of my head that has flights every day of the week (some days are only a single flight on the route, other days 2X or 3X).

Other routes are operated daily or 6 days/week as demand warrants. For example, SCK-LAS increases to 6 days/week in March (currently only 4 days/week). Some of those days SCK-LAS sees multiple flights.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlinemark8762 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2495 times:

Quoting allegiantflyer (Reply 51):
Does G4 have any routes that are daily?

There are two other examples I can think of off the top of my head. They are IWA/AZA to LAS and OAK. The route to OAK is to trade out aircraft on a just about every other day basis to get them back into a maintenance base as OAK hasvery minimal capabilities when it comes to maintenance.


User currently offlineStudeDave From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

Quoting allegiantflyer (Reply 51):
Does G4 have any routes that are daily?

BLI-LAS (and the reverse) is many times daily.







StudeDave



Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5796 posts, RR: 28
Reply 55, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

Quoting StudeDave (Reply 54):
BLI-LAS (and the reverse) is many times daily.

I thought maybe that was a tad excessive so I checked their website. For random dates in February, they had 2-4 flights per day each way. I'd say that, for Allegiant, and for Bellingham, that is in deed many times daily.  

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineStudeDave From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 55):
I thought maybe that was a tad excessive so I checked their website.

Even though most inbounds to BLI fly over my area everyday-
I will admit to checking their website before I posted.





StudeDave



Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1407 posts, RR: 2
Reply 57, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2269 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 50):
If you're so worried about the commute, look at DEN. The airport is in BFE with grass. It's like 20 mies from downtown Denver. People complain, yeah but they still take flights at DEN anyway.

What else are we to do? There aren't any other airports in the metro area with service. Plus DEN has non-stops to LOTS of cities.

BTW it is 24 miles if you drive.

Now if APA opened up and WN set up shop there .......


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 58, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 57):
There aren't any other airports in the metro area with service

My parents live in Kitsap County, and it takes an hour and a half to get to SEA. Anyone who lives in Kitsap County hasn't complained about the commute, and neither should you.

Quoting ADent (Reply 57):
BTW it is 24 miles if you drive.

   Shocker. So, I was off by 4 miles. So what.

Again, crying over spilt milk here, it seems.

Quoting ADent (Reply 57):
What else are we to do?

You sound desperate here. Just deal with it like everyone else.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1016 posts, RR: 2
Reply 59, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 44):
Have you been to LA lately? There is a reason why LA has 5 airports, the population is a heck of a lot bigger than Seattle is. Your comparison is apples and oranges, really.

And three of the five airports are underutilized and in the case of one could be considered a failure. ONT built a big, shiny new terminal just as the recession hit. I don't know the number but it's probably at 50% capacity at best. BUR has such a short runway that it's only good for regional/west coast flights. LGB is so restrictive with their landing slots that most airlines have up and left except for B6. Only LAX and SNA could be considered bustling and successful.



Next trip...DL RJ SEA-LAX/AM LAX-MEX Dec 23
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3702 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (2 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2046 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
fail to see how a few quiet QX Q400s would be a noise problem for nearby residents.

G4 is bringing some noisy Mad Dogs or maybe 319s.

Quoting seachaz (Reply 26):
As far as a terminal, nothing now but shouldn't be too hard to create something temporary near the tower short term. Long term they could reconfigure the space near the tower or move to the west side.

Is the County gonna pay for this?

Quoting seachaz (Reply 29):
Do we really want to crowd out an economic power-house like Boeing with traffic like this?

Yeah right that how come Boeing said it would have no effecton their ops. Liars!

Quoting seachaz (Reply 37):
Having to run operations out of two airports

Or is it 3 and don't they do that in the LA Basin?



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 61, posted (2 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 60):
Quoting seachaz (Reply 29):
Do we really want to crowd out an economic power-house like Boeing with traffic like this?

Yeah right that how come Boeing said it would have no effecton their ops. Liars!

Out of Everett, every month Boeing builds ~2 747s, ~1 767s, ~7 777s, and ~5 787s. Each plane needs, on average, about 4 flights before delivery. That implies a flight rate of 4x(2+1+7+5)=60 *per month*, or two flights per day. Add on to that another four flights per day or so of 737s (they do go-arounds and touch-and-goes at PAE), and you're talking a total average Boeing load on the field of about 6-8 flights per day...they won't even notice a low frequency commercial carrier.

Tom.


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1772 posts, RR: 16
Reply 62, posted (2 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1934 times:

Looks like the only people trashing this good news are the NIMBY's, Alaska's VP of planning and the people with "AS" attached to the username--hmmmmm.

User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5796 posts, RR: 28
Reply 63, posted (2 years 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1870 times:

AirframeAS, why are you being so aggressive about this? You mention people in Kitsap County not complaining. Well, they must have complained a little because they got a new suspension bridge due to congestion.

BFI would be a much more convenient location for a second airport but wouldn't really save people much time. PAE offers a lot of people north of SEA an alternative that will significantly reduce their drive time, reduce congestion on our over crowded roads, and bring some additional jobs to that county.

I understand that you feel differently than he does, but I don't think he's being disrespectful in how he is discussing it here. I like the idea of "what's next" for the Seattle area.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (2 years 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1800 times:

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 59):
BUR has such a short runway that it's only good for regional/west coast flights.

That's not true; B6 offers service to JFK using an A320. I'd say if they can do BUR-JFK, then BUR is capable of providing service to all major markets on the East Coast, and throughout the lower 48 using A32x's, 737's, and possibly 757s. Most airlines just choose to not operate long-distance flights to BUR. Also, keep in mind that the longest runway at SNA is 100 feet shorter than runway 8 at BUR (which is the one used for landings). IIRC, runway 15, which is 1000 feet longer, is most often used for takeoffs at BUR.


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