Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Atlantic Canada-Europe: An Abandoned Market?  
User currently offlineKLAM From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 167 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9003 times:

I somehow started this discussion on another thread, but thought that this topic deserves special attention. I have to get to YHZ in the next few months and I've been looking for a flight from AMS. Turns out that my options involve flying two airlines that do not codeshare (i.e. KL/BA to LHR and then AC to YHZ or KL to YYZ/YUL and then Westjet) or doing two stops (LH to YYZ). I really don't mind flying and I do not expect that by posting this airlines will start flying between europe and Atlantic Canada. I just want to ask a few questions and I hope I don't get flamed for asking them as I am no economist and understand little about supply and demand, and airlines deffinitely know better than I do. At any rate, here's my doubt:

The only two flights that connect Atlantic Canada to Europe are AC's seasonal service between YYT and LHR, and AC's flight from YHZ to LHR. Now, I understand that cities like St.John's or Halifax might not have great yields, nevertheless I think they are close enough to Europe to be strategic points. If someone from YYT wants to fly to let's say Paris or Rome, they need to fly for @1.5-2 hours to Toronto or Montreal, and then connect to fly for another 7-8 hours. Other less popular destinations like Lisbon, Madrid, or even Bucharest would require two stops or changing airlines. (I guess United is always a great option, though). So I started thinking if airlines like EI, KL or BA would be interested in flying their smaller birds (A319/738/73G) into YYT or YHZ (I don't know if range would allow) in order to allow passengers from these places to connect to europe through hubs such as LHR, DUB or AMS. I know medium haul aircraft are not equipped to transport passengers with the best comfort, but I think it would be quite cool to see European airlines operating their baby planes into America as if they were flying to any other European destination!


flyOM
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMattH From Canada, joined Mar 2008, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8932 times:

I can't contribute much to the discussion, aside from pointing out that YHZ has recently increased the runway length of 05/23, from 8800ft to 10,500ft.

This may open the door for more EU connections next summer, which has traditionally been the time when Condor, Thomas Cook & Icelandair start their seasonal service.

Of note is that Finnair does stop here in the winter (757); it is a tech stop, only for fuel and catering, before continuing onwards to the Carribean, or back to Helsinki.



"Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8834 times:

Yields stink. There is no business traffic. It is all Canadians going to visit the UK or Germans visiting The Maritimes

About 20-25 years ago KL flew a D10 on YHZ-AMS once per week or so. I think CP might have also flown AMS from YHZ about 1-2x per week

Wardair was never big in YHZ


User currently offlineKLAM From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8742 times:

Quoting MattH (Reply 1):
This may open the door for more EU connections next summer, which has traditionally been the time when Condor, Thomas Cook & Icelandair start their seasonal service.
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
About 20-25 years ago KL flew a D10 on YHZ-AMS once per week or so. I think CP might have also flown AMS from YHZ about 1-2x per week

This sounds like it's been tried before, but with today's a/c it will maybe be a whole different story!

Nevertheless...

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
Yields stink. There is no business traffic.



flyOM
User currently offlinewpigott From Canada, joined Oct 2008, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8650 times:

Quoting KLAM (Reply 3):
About 20-25 years ago KL flew a D10 on YHZ-AMS once per week or so.

I believe KL went YOW-YHZ-AMS to capture some more passengers, also I've heard that a big part of the route was moving lobsters from Atlantic Canada to Europe. That could be an option to increase yields, start in a bigger small airport in Canada like YWG or YOW then stopping in YHZ or YYT before going onto Europe.

Similar ideas have been thrown around at YQB to add CDG, going YOW-YQB-CDG. There is a lot of PAX between Quebec and Paris, right now YUL, the largest city, is the only city in Quebec with year round mainline services to CDG, while YQB and Gatineau (served by YOW) are the 2 largest cities in Quebec outside of the YUL area.


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 898 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8403 times:

In Summer 1984 CPAir operated:

- dep. 23.55 YHZ - arr. 10.45 AMS CP298 JCY D10 Monday
- dep. 14.30 AMS - arr. 16.05 YHZ CP297 JCY D10 Monday

This flight was operated by B747 in September 1984. In those days CPAir operated Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal and Halifax via Amsterdam to Rome and Milan

In Summer 1995 KLM & Martinair operated:

- dep. 10.50 AMS - arr. 12.45 YHZ dep. 13.40 - arr. 14.35 YOW KL/MP675 CM B767 Wed, Fri, Sun
- dep. 16.05 YOW - arr. 18.50 YHZ dep. 20.00 - arr. 07.05 AMS KL/MP676 CM B767 Wed, Fri, Sun

This flight was operating using a higher density MP B767 and replaced the KL B767 & D10 which had operated the flight previous seasons.


User currently offlinewatewate From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 2284 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8356 times:

YUL is only about an hour or so west of YHZ, YYG, etc., so it's not that bad. I've routinely done LHR/FRA/BCN/MAD-YUL-(maritimes airports), and they are fairly doable. It's when you have to fly all the way to YYZ things get a bit crazy. That extra hour to YYZ by bypassing YUL really adds up.

User currently offlinematt From Canada, joined May 1999, 694 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8163 times:

I live in Atlantic Canada and fly to Europe very regularly. There is nothing more I would love than to have more direct flights to Europe, but I fully understand that 1) this has been tried; 2) ... and yields are just not high enough.

So yes, we still have YHZ-LHR, which is practical, but I often end up flying to YUL (or YYZ) and EWR to catch my flights to Europe. I have also tried Icelandair, which has seasonal flights between YHZ and KEF. A good experience altogether.

KL started flying the YOW-YHZ-AMS route in the late 90s with the 743 and then later the D10. An MP 763 took over a few years later, on behalf of KL. Those were amazing years as flying to AMS and connecting to tons of destinations was very practical.

Of course there are charters, but those are 1) not practical; 2) mostly for VFRs. Halifax has had several airlines (currently the have Condor and Air Transat). YQM (Moncton, NB) has also had charter flights to Europe (Condor to HAJ with 753; Corsair to ORY with 743 and then 332). As for YFC (Fredericton, NB), it has had summer charter service to LGW (Air Transat 310).



Next flights: YQM-YYZ-YOW v.v. / YQM-CUN v.v. / YQM-YUL-YWG v.v. / YSJ-YYZ-SEA-SFO / SFO-YYZ-YOW-YQM / YQM-YYZ-MUC-TXL /
User currently offlineAussieItaliano From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8136 times:

Unfortunately, outside of LHR, there just isn't enough demand for any legacy carrier to fly from Atlantic Canada to Europe.

When we wanted to send my grandparents from PEI to Paris in 1994, we found that YYG-BOS-CDG was actually the best option. That was back when NW had a hub in BOS.

Now, the best option would likely be via JFK (DL) or YUL (AC).

I don't know if I would go so far as to say that it is an abandoned market. It just has never been heavily (or even moderately) served from anywhere outside of Canada.

YHZ has usually been the recipient of any international (including transborder) services to this region. That market has been tried over the past 3-4 years by several US airlines from several of their hubs. I would go so far as to say that transborder service is as strong from YHZ as it ever has been.

Regarding transatlantic service from YHZ, it is also as strong as it has ever normally been. Except for the two seasonal flights mentioned by bobloblaw and factsonly, LHR service is all that has been tried from YHZ.

YYT is also as heavily served as it ever has been. The UA (formerly CO) flight to EWR is the only transborder route, and the AC flight to LHR is the only transatlantic route.

Personally, I wouldn't find it horribly inconvenient to go via YUL or BOS to YHZ, whereas I would find it inconvenient to fly all the way to YYZ and then backtrack to YYT.

Of course, to fly direct from Europe to either YYT or YHZ, you would have to transit LHR (on 2 different carriers). That might be the worst option according to some here on a.net!



LHR - The Capital of the World
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7542 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7990 times:

Quoting KLAM (Thread starter):
So I started thinking if airlines like EI, KL or BA would be interested in flying their smaller birds (A319/738/73G) into YYT or YHZ (I don't know if range would allow) in order to allow passengers from these places to connect to europe through hubs such as LHR, DUB or AMS.

One factor that will almost certainly ensure that BA will not operate such a service is the LHR slot situation. If BA had an LHR slot available for a new long haul flight it seems most likely they would use it on one of many routes not currently operated that would support a BA 772 service rather than a service with a significantly smaller aircraft, particularly one where the yields are probably not that good.

As to EI or KL . . . Who knows?


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2631 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7791 times:

YHZ should talk to U2 to see how open-minded they are for a BFS-YHZ and/or GLA-YHZ as LTN-YHZ could be too far of a range for one of its ETOPS aircraft.
That would work wonders flying to Europe if at least U2 could offer passenger check-in at BFS or GLA or LTN after baggage re-claim and custom areas.
Same with WS offering passenger check-in @ YHZ after baggage re-claim and customs as a courtesy for U2 arriving passengers.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineKLAM From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7584 times:

I really did not know that YUL-Atlantic provinces was not as long. I really think that Atlantic Canadian Airports could serve PTY-style or KEF-style hubs for airlines like Westjet who only have smaller aircraft, but that's just my inexpert view on the matter!


flyOM
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4237 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7299 times:

If you wish to fly to the maritime provinces you could try going to BOS and then continuing to YHZ. But there does seem to be a lack of options probably due to lack of demand and the size of the cities in eastern Canada.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineSamuP From Colombia, joined Jul 2010, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7068 times:

I lived in YYZ for a long time and used AC for transatlantic flights regularly.

If you ask me, the problem here is the lack of intra-europe Star-Alliance connectivity from LHR. Granted all European *A members fly from their hubs and secondary hubs to LHR, but there is no *A connection to important European capitals like Amsterdam, Paris, Madrid, Rome.

You'd argue AC flies from YYZ to most of these cities, or you could use United via EWR or IAD, but that's quite inconvenient for most business travelers since your YYZ-USA flight departs around noon.

Then again, there is all the YHZ, YOW traffic that pretty much has to to fly O&D to LHR.

I'm sorry KLAM, been there before. But, have you tried UA AMS-EWR-YHZ?

Best of luck!


User currently offlineDariusBieber From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7010 times:

My best advice would be to route DUS-LHR on Lufthansa and then connect to AC on your way to YHZ.

Might also want to try AMS-JFK on Delta or KLM and then connect to Halifax on Delta. Might be a hassle trying to get through customs though.

[Edited 2012-12-04 11:44:53]


Darius Bieber
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5634 times:

I am surprised that AC doesnt do YHZ-FRA with the FRA Star Alliance hub. Say summer 3x per week. Yields must be too low. LHR isnt a good place to connect for AC pax going beyond LHR to the continent.

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4994 posts, RR: 43
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5450 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
I am surprised that AC doesnt do YHZ-FRA with the FRA Star Alliance hub. Say summer 3x per week. Yields must be too low. LHR isnt a good place to connect for AC pax going beyond LHR to the continent.

This is an excellent point, and one I recently rose in a "Town Hall" meeting with the marketing types from HQ. The answer surprised me!

The main reason why the transatlantic destination from either YHZ or YYT is LHR, is because that is the ultimate destination of the majority of the passengers. The ethnic British ties from Canada's Atlantic provinces is very high, and the vast majority of the passengers are VFR from either end. Atlantic Canadians "going home for a visit", or family from "back home" coming to Canada to visit.

There is very little connection traffic to the rest of Europe. While yes there is business traffic from Atlantic Canada, and yes often Atlantic Canadians wish to travel to other than the UK, but they are in the vast minority. (They had the numbers to back up their claims.)

One thing they did say, is something I mentioned on another thread, and that is the YYT-LHR seasonal operation, operates at a loss. It was placed there under extreme public pressure. The only thing that keeps is from losing even more is that most of the traffic is O&D, keeping the yields higher. If fares had to be "shared" due to connections, then the yield would be abysmal!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinematt From Canada, joined May 1999, 694 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5427 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
I am surprised that AC doesnt do YHZ-FRA with the FRA Star Alliance hub. Say summer 3x per week. Yields must be too low. LHR isnt a good place to connect for AC pax going beyond LHR to the continent.

I know that AC has already operated this route (1997, I believe, but maybe after as well). The flight went YUL-YHZ-FRA and was operated 6 times a week in the summer. It seems to me that AC also operated YHZ-FRA on a 2- or 3-flight-a-week basis in the early 2000s.

I would personally love to see YHZ-LHR replaced by YHZ-FRA year-round. So many more Star Alliance connections would be possible. For now, it's either through YUL (AC and Star) or EWR (UA).



Next flights: YQM-YYZ-YOW v.v. / YQM-CUN v.v. / YQM-YUL-YWG v.v. / YSJ-YYZ-SEA-SFO / SFO-YYZ-YOW-YQM / YQM-YYZ-MUC-TXL /
User currently offlineHBGDS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4787 times:

Is your point that even the summer market is down? I remember SR would rent a DC-10-30 (HB-IHP) for the summer servicing of Montreal. Flights were filled to the brim. The service would stop some time in September, ahead of the winter hour change.

User currently offlineStratacruiser From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4685 times:

I've used AC LHR-YHZ-BOS to get *A miles - adds a couple of hours, although the time in Halifax is productive in that you clear US customs there. My limited experience found the 767 to be quite full.

YHZ - FRA seems like an decent opportunity for a *A 757 operation - a la UA or US thin route strategy - but unfortunately neither LH or AC operates the type. Is it outside the range of the A319 AC uses YYT-LHR?


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2015 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

Good market for FI if they move away from 752s. Serve YYT and YHZ. And funnel those pax to several European destinations.

This is why I think FI has a lot of potential. Serve lots of smaller US centres too.


User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 809 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3913 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
YYT-LHR seasonal operation, operates at a loss. It was placed there under extreme public pressure.

Hmmm...I'm a little surprised to hear that. We had a VP down here last month who said that the YYT-LHR flight was indeed a profitable run and that it looked like it was going to be added as a year round route instead of seasonal, albeit 2-3X weekly during the winter. They are trying to plan out the cycling of only having 2 A319's on the route.



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3840 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
Yields stink. There is no business traffic.

There are only about 2.5M Canadians living in Atl Canada...about 7% of the population, and they have a poor economy, heavily subsidized by the rest of Canada. There is little economic growth, relatively little business activity and really no new opportunity for any TA flights. As longhauler said, the YHZ-LHR market is sustained by ethnic traffic.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
I am surprised that AC doesnt do YHZ-FRA with the FRA Star Alliance hub. Say summer 3x per week. Yields must be too low. LHR isnt a good place to connect for AC pax going beyond LHR to the continent.

This is an excellent point, and one I recently rose in a "Town Hall" meeting with the marketing types from HQ. The answer surprised me!

The main reason why the transatlantic destination from either YHZ or YYT is LHR, is because that is the ultimate destination of the majority of the passengers. The ethnic British ties from Canada's Atlantic provinces is very high, and the vast majority of the passengers are VFR from either end. Atlantic Canadians "going home for a visit", or family from "back home" coming to Canada to visit.

On a related note, I'm surprised AC does not offer YEG-FRA. Indeed, even YWG-LHR/FRA. YWG is the largest city in Canada without sked TA service.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
One thing they did say, is something I mentioned on another thread, and that is the YYT-LHR seasonal operation, operates at a loss. It was placed there under extreme public pressure.

What a way to run an airline. Screw the public pressure. Ditch the route if its losing money. Who's making route decisions for this airline? Imbeciles? Small children?

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 21):
We had a VP down here last month who said that the YYT-LHR flight was indeed a profitable run

I dount it's profitable. MOST AC routes lose money (on a fully burdened basis), hence its never-ending losses. Remember: an airline breaking even would have 50% of its routes (or route network) making money and the other 50% losing money. I would suspect 70% or more of AC's routes (or route network) actually loses money on a fully cost-burdened basis. I strongly suspect YYT-LHR is not a winner.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4994 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3840 times:

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 21):
Hmmm...I'm a little surprised to hear that. We had a VP down here last month who said that the YYT-LHR flight was indeed a profitable run and that it looked like it was going to be added as a year round route instead of seasonal, albeit 2-3X weekly during the winter. They are trying to plan out the cycling of only having 2 A319's on the route.

I think it depends on which column you are looking at, or possibly which VP you are talking to.

If you just consider the operating cost of an A319, mixed in with all the other A319s, then take an average ... then only consider that average hourly operational cost, then yes, I can see how an argument for profitability can be made. But this talk was referring to the additional costs of the ETOPS operation.

We were told of the costs of initial training for an exclusive base to ETOPS standards, then maintain those pilots to ETOPS standards with additional recurrent training, then maintain the aircraft to ETOPS standards. Then they mentioned the initial outlay of about $1M each for the reconfiguration of the aircraft, and the crewing issues for the operation when irregular ops occur. (not just any A319 crew can fly the flight).

Then as you mention, the inefficient cycling of the aircraft for both crewing and maintenance, as lets face it, if they were only based in YYT, one would only need one A319 for a daily flight.

It made me glad all I have to do is fly them!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2469 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3830 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
LHR isnt a good place to connect for AC pax going beyond LHR to the continent.

Why is this? LHR is the worlds #1 international airport, there are not many major cities in Europe you cant reach from LHR.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
Yields stink. There is no business traffic

Is there growing oil & gas related traffic?



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 24):
Why is this? LHR is the worlds #1 international airport, there are not many major cities in Europe you cant reach from LHR.

While AC has a internline agreement with BA, they dont codeshare. Thus fares from YHZ-LHR-MUC with a AC/BA interline connection will be expensive. LHR is huge for connections but those connections are BA/BA connections mostly.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4994 posts, RR: 43
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 22):
What a way to run an airline. Screw the public pressure. Ditch the route if its losing money. Who's making route decisions for this airline? Imbeciles? Small children?

Unfortunately, there is a lot more to consider than just one route from just one region. And I am constantly reminded of this whenever I read any airline marketing plans or papers.

Air Canada is in a very odd position in Canada, and I don't just mean the ACPPA. Unlike any other airline in Canada, while legally AC can pull out of any route they feel justified, morally or "publicly" they can not. The old outcry of, "our tax dollars built this airline, I expect it to be there when I need it" always seems to arise. By comparison, I see WS (for example) jump in and out of routes all the time, and no one seems to care.

But Newfoundland had the same opinions, only multiplied. If they are still there, look at the news reports, and the editorials when AC decided to remove YYT from the YHZ-LHR route. Talk of the history of the importance of Newfoundland to transatlantic travel, and the decades AC took Newfoundlanders to Europe was rampant. The vitriol was astounding, but the bottom line was always the same ... if AC decides to do this, they will boycott the airline.

And I have known dozens of Newfies, and that was no idle threat! Not only will they tell all their friends, but they are as stubborn as all get out! (I know, I married one!)

Bad press, in such a fragile market is not a good thing, and I can well see the corporate justification for flying this route. It reminds me of something a marketing guru once told me back in the old CP days. "You will not fill your YYZ-NRT flight, if you don't fly hourly from YYZ-YUL!"



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3913 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 24):
Is there growing oil & gas related traffic?

Yes. Some in YYT, but it's from a small base. Pales in comparison to the oil & gas traffic to YYC/YEG.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3786 times:

Quoting matt (Reply 7):
So yes, we still have YHZ-LHR, which is practical, but I often end up flying to YUL (or EWR to catch my flights to Europe

I think EWR is a great option 614 miles and your One stop same airline to pretty much all the major markets in europe. There is access to LHR which is awesome for business i bet and when you can fly not that far to Montreal, NYC, or Toronto i dont see them being in too bad shape

[Edited 2012-12-04 19:58:45]

User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3768 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
Unlike any other airline in Canada, while legally AC can pull out of any route they feel justified, morally or "publicly" they can not.

Yes. They. Can. AC answers to its shareholders, not the street.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
By comparison, I see WS (for example) jump in and out of routes all the time, and no one seems to care.

More in, than out. Westjet is growing. But i see your point. More the opposite actually: Westjet gets criticized for ENTERING a market sometimes. Their new daily YEG-YZK was seen a mortal threat to Cdn North.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
Talk of the history of the importance of Newfoundland to transatlantic travel, and the decades AC took Newfoundlanders to Europe was rampant.

Oh brother. Cry me a river. I know you're just paraphrasing what you heard. There is no room for nostalgia in the airline business.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
if AC decides to do this, they will boycott the airline.

Let it happen. They won't boycott it for long. AC offers the most seats into YYT. They will flood back over time.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineconnector4you From Canada, joined May 2001, 932 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3720 times:

Wasn't Westjet concerned with finding routes and destinations for their 737's large order? YYT would be the ideal hub to spread them all out on small-medium under-served markets across Canada and US. The only thing they have to figure out is a partner/partners landing larger planes (compensating for the low yields + cargo space availability) at YYT from Europe, or elsewhere for that matter. Throw in some smaller Q400 for short haul around Halifax as well. Assuming a Mach 0.75 here are flight-time duration between YYT and few European airports:

YYT- LHR 4:40 hours
YYT- AMS 5:05
YYT-CDG 5:02
YYT- FRA 5:30
YYT-DUS 5:17
YYT-MUC 5:51
YYT-ZRH 5:38

As a traveler wouldn't you enjoy these easy on the eyes and legs, short hops on your way to Canada or US west-coast ? Did I mention the chance to stop for a couple and visit the breath-taking Atlantic Canada ?


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4994 posts, RR: 43
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 29):
Yes. They. Can. AC answers to its shareholders, not the street.

But, ultimately when the street affects shareholders, they have to answer to both.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 29):
I know you're just paraphrasing what you heard. There is no room for nostalgia in the airline business.

Oh I know, but it is what makes Newfoundland a very unique market.

Understand, I don't disagree with you, I just understand why these decisions were made.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4237 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
One thing they did say, is something I mentioned on another thread, and that is the YYT-LHR seasonal operation, operates at a loss. It was placed there under extreme public pressure. The only thing that keeps is from losing even more is that most of the traffic is O&D, keeping the yields higher. If fares had to be "shared" due to connections, then the yield would be abysmal!

They are not going fly at a loss, I am sure that they make money, and if they don't they should just discontinue the run. AC is not in business to lose money, they have to answer to their shareholders and thus have to make money.

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 21):
Hmmm...I'm a little surprised to hear that. We had a VP down here last month who said that the YYT-LHR flight was indeed a profitable run and that it looked like it was going to be added as a year round route instead of seasonal, albeit 2-3X weekly during the winter. They are trying to plan out the cycling of only having 2 A319's on the route.


I have flown that flight before and the loads were respectable, maybe not absolutely full, but they seemed to be quite full.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 24):
Why is this? LHR is the worlds #1 international airport, there are not many major cities in Europe you cant reach from LHR.
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 24):
Is there growing oil & gas related traffic?

There is very small amount of oil and gas related business. NRT is the number one international airports in the world not LHR.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
The vitriol was astounding, but the bottom line was always the same ... if AC decides to do this, they will boycott the airline.

I don't know who will boycott the airline. If you need to go somewhere then you go. This idea of boycotting is just ridiculous. If your company is not making money you won't be in business for very long no matter what the people are saying. This is not a charity, AC are trying to make money just like every other company in the country.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently onlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3005 posts, RR: 28
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3183 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 22):
Remember: an airline breaking even would have 50% of its routes (or route network) making money and the other 50% losing money.

Huh? How about 75% of the routes making a modest profit and 25% making a significant loss, etc., etc - the permutations are endless. 1+1 ≠ 11.

Quoting connector4you (Reply 30):

YYT- LHR 4:40 hours
YYT- AMS 5:05
YYT-CDG 5:02
YYT- FRA 5:30
YYT-DUS 5:17
YYT-MUC 5:51
YYT-ZRH 5:38

As a traveler wouldn't you enjoy these easy on the eyes and legs, short hops on your way to Canada or US west-coast ?

Did you read what longhauler posted about ETOPS costs?



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4994 posts, RR: 43
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3080 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 32):
They are not going fly at a loss, I am sure that they make money, and if they don't they should just discontinue the run. AC is not in business to lose money, they have to answer to their shareholders and thus have to make money.

AC, had over a $400M operating profit last quarter, I am sure the shareholders were happy.

But I am going to say this again. If you consider the cost of flying YYT-LHR as only the cost of flying an A319 for 4.5 hours, then yes, one can claim it is profitable. That is because all the other extra costs have been put in other columns. Things like I mentioned above: extra training for initial and recurrent ETOPS operations, extra maintenance to maintain ETOPS standards, extra and inefficient crew rotations and pairings as only one crew base is ETOPS trained and the extra initial outlay of $1M per aircraft to bring them to ETOPS120 standards. It is very easy to lose those costs when they are averaged in so many other departments.

Oddly enough, the mention of going to daily mentioned above makes sense. As these fixed costs are now spread over more seat miles.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 32):
I don't know who will boycott the airline. If you need to go somewhere then you go.

I am not talking about YYT-LHR, as that is of course, a monopoly. But YYT-the rest of Canada. AC has competition on virtually every route from YYT to the west. That is why I mentioned the example above about having to have an hourly YYZ-YUL flight to fill your YYZ-NRT flight. It is all a very delicate balance.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3010 times:

Quoting KLAM (Thread starter):
The only two flights that connect Atlantic Canada to Europe are AC's seasonal service between YYT and LHR, and AC's flight from YHZ to LHR.

You are overlooking Icelandair's KEF-YHZ seasonal service.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
About 20-25 years ago KL flew a D10 on YHZ-AMS once per week or so. I think CP might have also flown AMS from YHZ about 1-2x per week

Both KL's and CP's YHZ-AMS service was very unprofitable. I remember flying on a CP 747-200 YHZ-AMS sometime in the 1980s.There were fewer than 100 passengers aboard. KL's service was no doubt even less profitable as it included the YOW-YHZ sector where they oviously couldn't sell local traffic.

YYT and YHZ should be happy they have any transatlantic service.There are many cities in the U.,S. and Europe many times larger than either YYT or YHZ with no transatlantic service at all.

[Edited 2012-12-05 15:18:40]

User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2469 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2875 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 32):
NRT is the number one international airports in the world not LHR.

Where did you get that from? Im talking about international pax and NRT is #15 at 2.46 million monthly pax. LHR is #1 at 5.84 million monthly pax as per ACI stats, 800,000 more than closest rival CDG and 1.1m more than #3 FRA.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 25):
LHR is huge for connections but those connections are BA/BA connections mostly.

I understand. Until recently they had BD in Star to connect pax, but there are still plenty of meaningful Star connections via LHR particularly with LH Group.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently onlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6767 posts, RR: 32
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 2638 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 22):
There are only about 2.5M Canadians living in Atl Canada...about 7% of the population, and they have a poor economy, heavily subsidized by the rest of Canada. There is little economic growth, relatively little business activity and really no new opportunity for any TA flights. As longhauler said, the YHZ-LHR market is sustained by ethnic traffic.

   I'd argue that Atlantic Canada is actually lucky to have and be able to sustain the YYT-LHR and YHZ-LHR flights that currently exist. Northern New England (Maine/New Hampshire/Vermont) has no scheduled transatlantic service beyond fuel stops at BGR and the total population of that region is 3.2 million. Halifax is a relatively small city (at 400,000 in the regional municipality) to support daily year-round widebody transatlantic service, but obviously ethnic/VFR ties as well as the city's status as the largest population/economic center in the region help. Pittsburgh is several times the size of Halifax and yet it has less transatlantic service.

Quoting watewate (Reply 6):
YUL is only about an hour or so west of YHZ, YYG, etc., so it's not that bad. I've routinely done LHR/FRA/BCN/MAD-YUL-(maritimes airports), and they are fairly doable.

   Sure, there's backtracking involved, but that's no worse than having to drive a couple of hours to catch a transatlantic flight like someone in Hartford or Portland, Maine would have to do.


User currently offlinematt From Canada, joined May 1999, 694 posts, RR: 2
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 2625 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 37):
I'd argue that Atlantic Canada is actually lucky to have and be able to sustain the YYT-LHR and YHZ-LHR flights that currently exist.

As someone who lives in Atlantic Canada (Moncton, NB), I, too, feel that we are lucky to have YHZ-LHR. Although I hardly ever transit through YHZ on my way to Europe (too few connection options), I still think that it's nice to have it.

Backtracking is just normal for we Atlantic Canadians. We are used to flying to EWR (2 hrs from YQM) or to YUL (1 hour 15 min. from YQM) to catch our connections. It only makes sense given the population of the region.



Next flights: YQM-YYZ-YOW v.v. / YQM-CUN v.v. / YQM-YUL-YWG v.v. / YSJ-YYZ-SEA-SFO / SFO-YYZ-YOW-YQM / YQM-YYZ-MUC-TXL /
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2497 posts, RR: 11
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting KLAM (Thread starter):
The only two flights that connect Atlantic Canada to Europe are AC's seasonal service between YYT and LHR, and AC's flight from YHZ to LHR.

Not true, DE has summer seasonal YHZ-FRA service with B763. Also, as Viscount 724 mentioned, FI has KEF-YHZ.

Quoting wpigott (Reply 4):
There is a lot of PAX between Quebec and Paris, right now YUL, the largest city, is the only city in Quebec with year round mainline services to CDG,

It might not be year round YQB-CDG, but it's definately most of the year. Flights resume 25 February 2013. That's a very early start for a summer seasonal service.

I believe YQB-CDG operated in winter, either last year, or the year before. Not 100% sure. As you mentioned, there is definately a market to France from YQB. TS even flies YQB-MRS during the summer.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3025 posts, RR: 36
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2523 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 39):
I believe YQB-CDG operated in winter, either last year, or the year before

I have it in the 2009 winter OAG at least, don't have 2010 or 2011 to check. Shows as A310.

But to the original point...
The Maritimes have a population of under 2 million, and Newfoundland and Labrador adds another 500k. The fact they have any european services at all is an incredible accomplishment. I'm trying to think of another city in North America with non-stop scheduled service to Europe with that small a catchment area and I'm coming up short.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlinerampbro From Canada, joined Nov 2012, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

I think everybody is missing a key point here, which is that St. John's is probably the only city in North America that can have a profitable A319 flight to LHR. It looks out of place on a route map, but it obviously makes money or AC wouldn't operate it. It's not about YYT's 'luck' that they have the LHR flight, its a sensible play in a dynamic market.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 29):
Oh brother. Cry me a river. I know you're just paraphrasing what you heard. There is no room for nostalgia in the airline business.

Of course there is, how else could airlines hope to build a brand? Why would airlines spend money to put retrojets schemes on their planes? Have you seen the September 2012 enroute magazine?

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 22):
There are only about 2.5M Canadians living in Atl Canada...about 7% of the population, and they have a poor economy, heavily subsidized by the rest of Canada. There is little economic growth, relatively little business activity and really no new opportunity for any TA flights.

Poppycock. Newfoundland and Labrador is a 'have' province and we pay into equalization.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 29):
Let it happen. They won't boycott it for long. AC offers the most seats into YYT. They will flood back over time.

Thats a calculated risk. PD and WS have good brand support in the St. John's area, whereas AC's name is regularly dragged through the mud as it is most other places in Canada. Now while I rarely think that AC-bashing is fair (they are IMHO a great airline), the summer LHR flight does earn them kudos. I have heard people in St. John's trash AC, and then say 'at least they keep the London flight'. If they drop it, they will hand an opportunity to WS on a golden platter.

And to grind the rumour mill, I recall a WS employee mentioning that one of her friends who worked at HQ had been dispatched to check out CDG and various London airports for potential WS service. Mind you, this was 6-7 years ago now, but it seems as though the idea has been examined in the boardroom at YYC.


User currently offlineghYHZ From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 40):
The Maritimes have a population of under 2 million, and Newfoundland and Labrador adds another 500k. The fact they have any european services at all is an incredible accomplishment. I'm trying to think of another city in North America with non-stop scheduled service to Europe with that small a catchment area and I'm coming up short.

And that AC YHZ-LHR service has been around forever…….Originally started with Trans-Canada Airlines Super Constellations then DC-8s in the early ‘60s. It routed via Gander for a number of years before being transferred to YYT and has also operated through Prestwick and Glasgow on the way to LHR. L-1011’s were on the run in the ‘70s & ‘80s before the ‘767s took over and continue to today.


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2243 posts, RR: 12
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2389 times:

I also think with both the cross border AC-UA agreement being allowed again and with the Cross Atlantic tie in, more options for European destinations will open up via connecting through Boston, or EWR for Maritimers. It is also conceivable but less likely that the AC LCC will open up some routes if UA decides it can route some passengers for the US NE through it. Yes there is a boost in Oil and Gas, but there is just not enough broad business demand for other direct flights.

User currently offlineconnector4you From Canada, joined May 2001, 932 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2294 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 33):
Did you read what longhauler posted about ETOPS costs?

Did I suggest in my post, that the use of an A319 or similar size aircraft on Transatlantic crossing is recommended ?

  

If I did ...I apologize


User currently onlinevoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2197 times:

Quoting rampbro (Reply 41):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 22):
There are only about 2.5M Canadians living in Atl Canada...about 7% of the population, and they have a poor economy, heavily subsidized by the rest of Canada. There is little economic growth, relatively little business activity and really no new opportunity for any TA flights.

Poppycock. Newfoundland and Labrador is a 'have' province and we pay into equalization.

------------------


   Yes. St.Johns is a little oil emirate at the moment. Lots of economic activity at every level.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2497 posts, RR: 11
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2194 times:

Quoting rampbro (Reply 41):
Poppycock. Newfoundland and Labrador is a 'have' province and we pay into equalization.

True dat !

Because of the mining boom in YWK, the airport there is bursting at the seems. No radar, way too many movements, not enough ramp space, not even a proper parallel taxiway to service the runway. A disaster waiting to happen....

Supposedly MLAT is coming.....

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently onlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3005 posts, RR: 28
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2124 times:

Quoting connector4you (Reply 44):

It seemed like it.

Quoting connector4you (Reply 30):
Wasn't Westjet concerned with finding routes and destinations for their 737's large order? ... Assuming a Mach 0.75 here are flight-time duration between YYT and few European airports:

YYT- LHR 4:40 hours
YYT- AMS 5:05
YYT-CDG 5:02
YYT- FRA 5:30
YYT-DUS 5:17
YYT-MUC 5:51
YYT-ZRH 5:38



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1832 times:

Quoting rampbro (Reply 41):
it obviously makes money or AC wouldn't operate it.

AC loses $ over all, so that means that many (most?) routes also lose $. I would suspect that given the additional costs assoc. with the YYT-LHR route, it also loses money.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 41):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 22):
There are only about 2.5M Canadians living in Atl Canada...about 7% of the population, and they have a poor economy, heavily subsidized by the rest of Canada. There is little economic growth, relatively little business activity and really no new opportunity for any TA flights.

Poppycock. Newfoundland and Labrador is a 'have' province and we pay into equalization.

I was speaking about Atl Canada in total. NF's population is only about 500k (20% of Atl Canada), and yes, it is (now) recently a "have" province after many decades of being a "have not" province. I don't see this new-found "have" status generating any new TA service just yet (which is the thread topic).

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 43):
Yes there is a boost in Oil and Gas, but there is just not enough broad business demand for other direct flights.

Agreed. Even a larger, more sustainable oil & gas boom may not generate any additional TA flights.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineconnector4you From Canada, joined May 2001, 932 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1733 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 47):
It seemed like it

Kaiarahi, it seems that you are really enjoying that cut and paste feature. Technically Its called putting words on somebody's mouth. For your records here's what I wrote:

Quoting connector4you (Reply 30):
The only thing they have to figure out is a partner/partners landing larger planes (compensating for the low yields + cargo space availability) at YYT from Europe, or elsewhere for that matter.

I rest my case Your Honor



Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
An EAS Market Revived posted Tue Mar 23 2010 15:02:03 by JA
How's Air Canada Doing In Current Market posted Sat Apr 19 2008 00:02:29 by 744
Is Vietnam An Untapped Market? posted Mon Apr 9 2007 15:46:48 by B777A340Fan
DL Stealing The Europe - Central America Market? posted Sun Jan 21 2007 19:35:07 by Avianca
Air Canada Boosts Capacity In Atlantic Canada posted Tue Nov 7 2006 20:54:46 by Drgmobile
Flying In The US And Canada With An Infant posted Sun Sep 10 2006 04:02:55 by Greg3322
Atlantic Canada Charters - Winter 2007 posted Sat Aug 26 2006 22:40:48 by Matt
AC Adds Additional Capacity To Atlantic Canada posted Thu Mar 23 2006 21:04:54 by DFORCE1
JetsGo Unveils New Atlantic Canada Schedule posted Thu Feb 19 2004 20:54:02 by Noise
New Airport Club For Airports Of Atlantic Canada! posted Mon Nov 12 2001 02:34:33 by Boeing757fan